Soooo, I crashed.....
Concussion, broken collar bone, road rash on back & arm whiplash, and a really sore ankle.
Little Buddy = Write off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf7l19SO4Fw
I'm done for the season, and depending on funds, will hopefully pick up another bike and ride again next season.
:icon_sad:
Glad you had your gear so the injuries weren't worse. We should make a montage of scraped and scuffed helmets to show the morons who don't wear them.
Was it one critical thing that wrote off the bike or the sum of all the little things?
Sum of all the little things... the total cost of repairs would have exceeded the value of the bike, and it was cheaper for both my insurance company and me to simply write it off. There is one picture where you can see the crankshaft through the engine casing. At that point, there isn't even a point to attempting repairs. Fairings, motor, bent forks, linkages, all over 3k. I'm just hoping they let me take it home and strip it first, before they take it to the wreckers.
Oh well, live and learn i suppose.
HOW did you crash?
What did you Learn from the crash - what steps could you have taken to avoid it in hindsight, what did you do wrong in the first place, etc.?
Michael
damn man im glad to see you walked away from that, i lost 3 friends in the past 5 years in motorcycle wrecks.
Although it sucks to lose the bike, look at the bright side of the situation! And that is that your still kicking it lol!
Cause face it wounds heal, chicks dig scars, and now you got one hell of a story to tell...
once again good to have you with ur, but sorry for your loos!
that video was actually pretty sad...
why did you crash?
and you should be happy you're alive, Someone is looking out for you ;)
How fast were you going?
Quote from: rebel_rocket on October 17, 2011, 10:38:35 PM
How fast were you going?
I'm no expert or anything, but it looks like he was going at a good clip. Take a look at the length of the scratches and their angle. The scratches are pretty much parallel to the ground, which means the bike slid, the length implies it slid for a little while.
The huge dent in the tank would tell me that it hit the ground pretty hard. There's a chunk of his crank case missing and there are scratches on both sides. I bet the bike went for a roll.
I'd put my money on him panicking and laying down the bike.
Long story short, it was fast enough to destroy his bike and give him a concussion and bad road rash.
21:30, October 10, 2011. I was travelling 80kph (the speed limit...) . I turned off one exit too early. The exit I wanted has 500m of straight road & excellent braking distance. The exit i was on runs parallel to the one i wanted. Because i thought i was on the long one, i didn't break until the last minute. I was focused on the distance, about 400m ahead of me, not so much what was under my nose.
What was under my nose was a concrete median.....
I hit the brakes hard, stupidly locking up the rear wheel. I felt it swing out to my left past 45 degrees.
At this point, I did the worst thing i could, and slightly released the rear brake....
The last thing i remember, is the rear wheel gaining traction, the bike snapping back underneath me, and being launched towards the median (going ~55 kph by now...) and thinking "oh f***..."
When I came too, i did a self assessment for injuries, made sure i was out of traffic, and laid still when i heard a passer-by calling for EMS.
When i talked with the police and then went back to the accident site, I had been launched ~20ft through the air, hit the median at about a 60 degree angle head/shoulder first (knocking me out) then slid 40ft along the concrete median until i came to rest. The bike hit the median full on and danced along it until if reached the end of the barrier.
Here is where i crashed:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?saddr=Unknown+road&daddr=Unknown+road&hl=en&sll=51.089221,-114.134581&sspn=0.002258,0.006748&geocode=FeqOCwMdcXAy-Q%3BFfiRCwMd9G8y-Q&vpsrc=0&mra=ls&t=h&z=19
The barrier has 1 street light and NO reflectors on it until it's too late...... An excuse? Perhaps, but it may have helped... I'm not the first one to crash on that corner...
The police, ER staff, and Dr's all said that proper gear saved my life a week ago.
So what have I learned...
Make sure you have all your gear... make sure you're on the right road... and when in a rear wheel skid NEVER RELEASE THE REAR BRAKE! Oh, and Amazing Grace via bagpipes is the perfect remembrance-video music...
More pics...
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150867303825131.750265.681165130&type=3
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on October 17, 2011, 10:57:14 PM
I'm no expert or anything,
I'd put my money on him panicking and laying down the bike.
One out of two aint bad.
Quote from: the mole on October 18, 2011, 02:27:04 AM
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on October 17, 2011, 10:57:14 PM
I'm no expert or anything,
I'd put my money on him panicking and laying down the bike.
One out of two aint bad.
:thumb:
Glad to hear you're (relatively) okay. it can be tricky scanning the road ahead and not being ready for whats right in front of you.
Glad you survived. Hope you feel better and heal up fast.
Good to see you are still around to tell the tale.
- Porkchop
A bike with ABS might have saved you from this crash. Being more alert certainly would have.
Glad you are alive. Make sure to learn as many lessons as you can from this crash.
When coming into a corner too hot you have 3 basic options...
1 - hit the breaks, slow in a straight line and hope you stop before the edge appears
2 - hit breaks hard to wash off some speed, release, then lean lean lean brother for all you're worth
3 - lean with everything you got, then lean some more. If the pegs aren't scraping you ain't leaning enough
The problem with #1 is, it was the lack of road judgement which cause being too hot in the first place, no reason to think you can now suddenly judge the ability to brake and stop in time too. But it is an Instinctual Thing to do - cause that's what we do in a car.
The difference between 2 and 3 is, when you brake the bike wants to stand more upright and you cannot corner upright. So while breaking slows you down it also gives you less radius to make the turn in. BTW, coming off the throttle completely mid turn has the same effect as braking, it wants to stand the bike as the weight moves forward onto the front wheel. A standing bike drifts you wide.
ABS may have prevented the highside but I doubt it would have prevented your crash conditions being like you said. Only being more observant of the road you were on would have done that as you would have been riding slower as you released you were on the wrong exit.
Thank you for sharing your experience and lessons learned.
Michael
Item 1.) Tucsondog, thank you x10 for posting your story. It helps a lot. The photos, the map, etc... all good.
Item 2.) I've been "corrected" on this issue here previously but I still say the rear brakes on a GS500 are so poor they are actually worse than no brakes at all. They are dangerous.
I own & ride bikes from 50cc to 1300,
From new to antique,
Some hand and some foot controlled rears, both disk & drum.
My point is the rear brakes on a GS500 are crap and I am not surprised you locked em' up and then released causing a crash. I'm just glad you made it.
No man should have to be a master of roadcraft with hundreds of hours of track time to be able to effectively (safely?) use a bikes rear brakes.
The rear brakes should be predictable. Have some sense of feedback (modulation?), and require an intentionally heavy input before they ever lock.
I've ridden home-brew mini-bikes with more forgiving rears than the GS.
Tucsondog, Glad you made it, and thanks again for your posts. :thumb:
-Ej-
I have to take issue with the rear brakes being crap.
The fact that they locked the wheel means they work pretty good. He no doubt pressed on it really hard.
I find the rear brakes very predictable and work great.
However, the rear tire can make a difference. When I first got Trey, he had an old, hard, giant tire. I was always locking it up with the slightest water on the road. Many of our city streets are old and have round, smooth river rocks as aggregate. Those are very polished and smooth - hence slick when wet.
Once I put on a fresh tire with good rubber, I never locked up the rear wheel again. I have great feedback and know what the rear brakes are doing. I think they're pretty good and predictable. Also they are about the same as rear brakes on lots of bikes.
Condition of the pads can make a difference. Also what grade of pads the brakes have.
Locking can be caused my many things. It also means the brakes are braking.
If the rear doesn't lock up on you, maybe the brakes aren't braking, or they are not strong enough or something else.
Quote from: adidasguy on October 18, 2011, 09:12:28 PM
I find the rear brakes very predictable and work great.
Compared to what?
What's your reference point?
Quote from: adidasguy on October 18, 2011, 09:12:28 PM
However, the rear tire can make a difference.
Once I put on a fresh tire with good rubber, I never locked up the rear wheel again.
Condition of the pads can make a difference.
Also what grade of pads the brakes have.
Agreed.
Your comments about rear braking "in general" are valid.
Quote from: adidasguy on October 18, 2011, 09:12:28 PM
I think they're pretty good and predictable.
Also they are about the same as rear brakes on lots of bikes.
Again, what's your reference?
My bikes are either new, or older machines that are meticulously maintained.
When I comment rear brakes in the general sense, I am indeed comparing apples to apples, and the GS500 rears are dog poop.
My GS is a 2007 which has always had unfriendly rear brakes.
Since I can't judge what I've never ridden, it is very possible that the older GS bikes (pre 2004) had better feel to the rears.
It would not surprise me that those older bikes were a better breed overall.
Thanks for a spirited post, :cheers:
-Ej-
Anytime I use the rear brake, I know exactly what it will do. It is very predictable.
I have 3 bikes: 1992, 1994 and 2009. All operate the same. I don't have to remember what bike I'm on - the brakes are the same. I've ridden 4 or more other GS500's that friends have. Never had any doubts as to how the rear brake works. Always the same - always predictable.
I test rode a GSX650F and a GSXR-600 plus the bikes in the MSF class. Never have to give any thought to how the rear brake works. There might be a light difference between bikes, but reflexes take care of that after using the brake once or twice. One bike had an aggressive rear and squishy front brake. So? After using them a couple times, I learned how they worked. Just like cars have different feel to the brakes and you learn that after braking a couple times. After that, instinct keeps you in the clear.
I do understand that if you ride only 1 GS500 and it has rear brake problems, you'd assume all have a problem.
Quote from: adidasguy on October 18, 2011, 10:22:37 PM
Anytime I use the rear brake, I know exactly what it will do.
It is very predictable.
I have 3 bikes: 1992, 1994 and 2009. All operate the same.
I don't have to remember what bike I'm on - the brakes are the same.
Most people think I'm nuts when I complain about the GS500 rears but I have indeed had a few replies to my previously posted complaints on this forum with comments like. . .
"Exactly" and statements like. . .
"So it's not just me then"I've done a lot of work to my bike to make it (comfy) and perfect as possible for my needs but getting the rear brakes right has always alluded me. (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2wc9e/hmm.gif)
Guess I gotta' borrow another guys GS some day to truly vent my demons.
Thanks,
-Ej-
EDIT: Tucsondog, sorry I hijacked. I just had to vent a little.
Well, come to Seattle. United (Continental) about 6 direct flights a day.
Or maybe I'll look you up next time I'm in Newark (condo near Newark Penn Station).
then we'll compare notes :icon_lol:
I have to agree that the rear brake on the GS can be touchy. It does not seem to require much input at all to lock up and I only noticed this after I bought my Ducati Monster which has Brembo callipers and noticed the difference. You almost have to stand on the Ducatis rears to lock them.
I don't think it is the whole of the rear brake that is the problem per se.
I think it is just an issue with lever feedback. ie there is none. In my car I can feel how much pressure I am applying and easily modulate it. Same deal with the front brake on the GS. I can feel how much pressure I am applying and adjust. The rear brake however seems to have no feedback, so no matter if I am wearing heavy bike boots or thin soled sneakers, I have no way of feeling how much rear brake pressure there is untill the back end starts to stepout. I have even tried using rear brake alone on empty roads, and while I can estimate how quickly I am slowing down I can still not judge how much pressure I am applying.
I compensate for this by starting with the rear brake to ensure I am using some, but only ever slightly and focus mainly on the front brake.
Quote from: pave_spectre on October 19, 2011, 12:30:58 AM
I think it is just an issue with lever feedback. ie there is none. In my car I can feel how much pressure I am applying and easily modulate it. Same deal with the front brake on the GS. I can feel how much pressure I am applying and adjust. The rear brake however seems to have no feedback, so no matter if I am wearing heavy bike boots or thin soled sneakers, I have no way of feeling how much rear brake pressure there is until the back end starts to stepout.
My point exactly.The brakes on my Yamaha (for example) were simply "idiot proof".
You could lock them up if you truly wanted to but it took a dedicated effort to do it.
Very similar to the front brake on my GS500F. . .
I can lock up the front if I truly want to, but it takes a very specific and dedicated effort to get it to happen.
And adidasguy, the possibility of me bringing you my farkled & spotless 2007 GS500F to Newark for a torture-test is high.
I'll give you the bike (and a set of rosary beads), and you run her through the mean streets of Newark while placing "emphasis" on the rear brake.
Scoring goes like this. . .
a.) You make it back alive = You were right! My rider skills need improvement.
b.) You launch into orbit on a tucsondog approved high-sider = I was right! Rear brakes have no feel.
But something still doesn't seem right though, (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2wc9e/thinking.gif)
I guess we can work it out at show time.
And Thanks crew all for the input on this issue.
Regards,
-Ej-
I feel good feedback and know how hard to press.
We've hijacked the thread. This should go somewhere else.
Glad you're ok :-)
Quote from: adidasguy on October 19, 2011, 10:12:00 AM
I feel good feedback and know how hard to press.
We've hijacked the thread. This should go somewhere else.
Hijacked the thread? Please don't send us to the Tard Farm. We'll be OK here.
The reason tucsondog crashed was a rear brake issue on a GS500 so we merely biased the topic away from the "crash" issue and got specific with the "brakes" part of it.
Your GS500 experience far exceeds mine so I can only say that "my" GS has horrid rears as compared to my other bikes.
IMHO it feels as if the back of the bike is simply too light for the rear brake system, thus it is difficult (impossible?) to tell if the rear brake is:
1.) properly applied,
2.) not applied at all, or
3.) locked-up and skidding merrily down the road.
I myself prefer "idiot-proof" brakes since I am, well, somewhat less that an expert at this biker stuff. (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2wc9e/whistle.gif)
Peace,
-Ej-
Needs its own thread. (http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Videos/smiley-eatdrink002.gif)
Ouch man, that had to hurt terribly. I'm glad you're alive and okay, and that the bike took most of the damage. Here's hoping for a speedy recovery and a new bike next Spring!
Quote from: tucsondog on October 17, 2011, 11:34:59 PM
I hit the brakes hard, stupidly locking up the rear wheel. I felt it swing out to my left past 45 degrees.
At this point, I did the worst thing i could, and slightly released the rear brake....
The last thing i remember, is the rear wheel gaining traction, the bike snapping back underneath me, and being launched towards the median (going ~55 kph by now...) and thinking "oh f***..."
...
Make sure you have all your gear... make sure you're on the right road... and when in a rear wheel skid NEVER RELEASE THE REAR BRAKE! Oh, and Amazing Grace via bagpipes is the perfect remembrance-video music...
ookay, sooo.. what do you think you "should" have done?
I see a lot of "dont" mentality. But no "DO" mentality.
What "should" you have done, when the back wheel has already slide around "45 degrees"? Just let the bike slide around more, and throw you off that way?
Seems like there should be a better option, but what do I know...
Quote from: Phil B on October 19, 2011, 01:33:19 PM
ookay, sooo.. what do you think you "should" have done?
I see a lot of "dont" mentality. But no "DO" mentality.
What "should" you have done, when the back wheel has already slide around "45 degrees"? Just let the bike slide around more, and throw you off that way?
Seems like there should be a better option, but what do I know...
From what I've read and been told, whenever the rear locks, as long as the bike is relatively straight, its okay to release and re-apply. If you lock it in a corner, or in a situation where the rear slides out, you just mash on it harder and keep it locked, because as long as your front wheel isn't locked, you'll be guided by it.
"
Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough (at your local library :whisper:) has excellent explanations and diagrams on panic braking and 'what-if' scenarios, as well as motorcycling in general.
The MSF course I took earlier this year basically said:
Front brake locks, release and reapply.
Rear brake locks, keep it locked until you stop.
Eventually the bike will straighten up when the rear is locked and goes to the side.
What he Should have done was realized he was in the wrong lane to begin with. That the wrong lane was not noticed shows a lack of paying attention. Rider error. Blame street lights or reflectors all you like, it's still rider error in the final analysis.
I have no issues with the rear brake. Sometimes I only use it, other times only front, and other times both. I can feel it quite well.
Michael
Thanks for the well wishes, recovery is coming along nicely, still a ton of bruising though...
As for coulda-woulda-shoulda and bad brakes....
The breaks were in excellent condition. I bled them at the end of September, and the pads were fantastic. As for the tire, it was a tad worn, but still had a ton of tread and air pressures were spot on.
It came down to thinking i was on a different road, and coming in about 40kph faster than i should have for that corner.
ABS may have helped, but I doubt it would have made a significant difference.
Had I had ABS, and braked in a straight line. I doubt I would have avoided a collision with the barrier anyway. I weigh 230 lbs with gear, on a 450 lb bike... so almost 800lbs of man & machine trying to go from 80-0 within <100 ft. In a PERFECT world, one should be able to to this on a high performance bike in 100-120 ft.
Not gonna happen on a GS500F
It came down to I thought i was on a different road. I plan on riding again (don't tell my mother lol), hopefully next season, funds allowing, and will still take my high performance riding course next summer as planned.
Like I said earlier.......... I effed up, and now I have a totalled bike, a broken bone, lots of bruises, and a couple wicked scars.
Brakes = good
Rider = turned off early...
Quote from: tucsondog on October 17, 2011, 11:34:59 PM
21:30, October 10, 2011. I was travelling 80kph (the speed limit...) . I turned off one exit too early. The exit I wanted has 500m of straight road & excellent braking distance. The exit i was on runs parallel to the one i wanted. Because i thought i was on the long one, i didn't break until the last minute. I was focused on the distance, about 400m ahead of me, not so much what was under my nose.
What was under my nose was a concrete median.....
I hit the brakes hard, stupidly locking up the rear wheel. I felt it swing out to my left past 45 degrees.
At this point, I did the worst thing i could, and slightly released the rear brake....
The last thing i remember, is the rear wheel gaining traction, the bike snapping back underneath me, and being launched towards the median (going ~55 kph by now...) and thinking "oh f***..."
When I came too, i did a self assessment for injuries, made sure i was out of traffic, and laid still when i heard a passer-by calling for EMS.
When i talked with the police and then went back to the accident site, I had been launched ~20ft through the air, hit the median at about a 60 degree angle head/shoulder first (knocking me out) then slid 40ft along the concrete median until i came to rest. The bike hit the median full on and danced along it until if reached the end of the barrier.
Here is where i crashed:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?saddr=Unknown+road&daddr=Unknown+road&hl=en&sll=51.089221,-114.134581&sspn=0.002258,0.006748&geocode=FeqOCwMdcXAy-Q%3BFfiRCwMd9G8y-Q&vpsrc=0&mra=ls&t=h&z=19
The barrier has 1 street light and NO reflectors on it until it's too late...... An excuse? Perhaps, but it may have helped... I'm not the first one to crash on that corner...
The police, ER staff, and Dr's all said that proper gear saved my life a week ago.
So what have I learned...
Make sure you have all your gear... make sure you're on the right road... and when in a rear wheel skid NEVER RELEASE THE REAR BRAKE! Oh, and Amazing Grace via bagpipes is the perfect remembrance-video music...
i'm thankful you're alive, and also that you're man enough to admit a mistake, and provide us with the knowledge to improve ourselves. thanks for that, heal. O0
It may seem unproductive at this point in the story but I would have to agree with mister. . .
NOT getting into that situation in the first place is probably the 90% solution. . .
. . . with the remaining 10% being: How does a rider handle going into a curve too hot and with a locked rear wheel, (which even Mr. Hough would likely have difficulty dealing with).
Tucsondog, judging from your last post, you are mighty level-headed about the whole affair. Glad to see your psychology is in good working order. :thumb:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And adidasguy. . .
Quote from: adidasguy on October 19, 2011, 12:18:45 PM
Needs its own thread. (http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Videos/smiley-eatdrink002.gif)
It pains me to admit it, but I do believe you are correct on that statement.
Adidasguy started another thread on rear brakes (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=58039.0). Would love to discuss this, but won't do it here.
Quote from: burning1 on October 19, 2011, 05:30:07 PM
Adidasguy started another thread on rear brakes (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=58039.0). Would love to discuss this, but won't do it here.
The other thread seems to mostly be whining about "GS500 brakes are too grippy/not too grippy", rather than, "what is the best way to actually USE them in critical situations".
That's what I'd be interested in.
There have been a few threads like that... One was how to deal with going into a corner too hot, the other about blipping on downshift, which necessitates braking.
GLAD you made it out relatively OK, SORRY for the loss of a bike, THANKS for sharing a story, GOOD JOB with having your gear on, KUDOS for admitting own mistake.
UPDATE:
Getting full value for the bike & gear!
My bruising is 90% gone!
No surgery req'd!
No physio req'd!
I can drive again and i'm back to work tomorrow!
Oh, and I hear there may be some spring sales on GS500F's or even some SV650's......
:woohoo:
Quote from: tucsondog on October 28, 2011, 08:36:57 PM
UPDATE:
Getting full value for the bike & gear!
My bruising is 90% gone!
No surgery req'd!
No physio req'd!
I can drive again and i'm back to work tomorrow!
Oh, and I hear there may be some spring sales on GS500F's or even some SV650's......
:woohoo:
:D :D :D :D :D
Glad to hear your okay :thumb: Sorry, bout your ride though. Hope, you've learned from it. Never ride distracted or angry. I've been guilty of being in a hurry and was distracted I ended up with 3 torn ligaments in my ankle.
On to the brakes. I am primarily a rear braker and it seems to work fine on flick I've only locked up once. I know by feel exactly before it is about to lock up. In 20.000 miles I've gone through 2 sets of rear brakes about to change to #3 to 1 set of front brakes.
mary