So I was riding just now, decided to get some gas through the carbs and see how things are going, when I came to a stop sign. Took off from the stop sign, back end flew out and I thought "that's not good" so I pulled over to look at the tire and what I see instead is oil everywhere. It seems to have "exploded" from somewhere behind the main block, so I'm in the process of taking the tank off to get a better look at it, but is there anything you guys think might be the culprit?
Here's a video I took of the bike:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vOqBDbBuow
Check the oil level, add more oil, turn it on and see if you can spot where its coming from after you add more oil.
Otherwise clean up most of the oil to make it easier to spot.
Also that oil is black, whats the last time you changed the oil?
Taking off the tank, there's a hose that seems to have disconnected. Probably the culprit.
As for changing the oil, I plan to change it as soon as I can get the V&H headers off. In my other thread I went into more detail about how the left header's screws/bolts won't budge at all so I'm waiting for my cousin to come over and see if he can use some of his tricks to get it off.
Edit: Ok, that hose, according to Kerry's valve adjustment video, should be going to the airbox. That's one thing I'm curious about. The PO put on a K&N lunchbox air filter, but it doesn't have an airbox at all. Does it 100% need one?
It's the hose that should go to the breather box to the airbox that is off at the airbox end.
You can get a little filter for that breather hose if you are not running an air box, looks like a mini K+N cone. That hose should not have oil "gushing" out of it though unless something is really wrong. I think your leak is coming from somewhere else. As others said, get some brake clean and clean everything off, add oil, and run the engine to see where the oil is coming from.
-Jessie
A mechanic at Aurora Suzuki told me how to find an oil leak:
1. Clean everything off
2. DRY everything
3. Sprinkle baby powder all over the place
4. The source of the oil leak will be obvious in the powder
Wash bike and fix the leak.
Repeat to see if it was fixed and no new leaks show up.
mmm, clutch push rod o-ring ?
mmmmaybe front sprocket seal ?
iirc, either one of those will freaking GUSH oil with the engine running. check your oil by removing the dipstick, wipe, then just set it back on the threads. do not screw it in to check. (sorry, it needs said every time)
+1 for checking your level and running the bike to find the source. personally i'd wipe it down as best as possible, then wash it with dish soap, dry, then powder it. (baby powder, starch, whatever). i'd bet on the two i mentioned above.
GET A FLASHLIGHT, it will help to show the oil leak well.
i'd wish you luck, but you already are lucky - this didn't happen at speed, but at a stop sign. count your stars homie. :thumb:
Yeah I'm hopeful I found it when I did. It's gonna be a pain to clean, as the oil is all over the rear shock and everything. Not going to be able to touch the bike until Saturday afternoon at the earliest, though, as it's finals week.
What should I be doing with the air filter? From the looks of it, oil got up onto there pretty good.
And from what I can tell, I don't think the oil came out of the sprocket cover. My pants were completely clean, but the oil somehow got onto the wheel, which is why I'm wondering if there were any hoses that could've come off.
Edit: And for clarification, this wasn't a "drip drip drip" leak, it was a full blown gush from the looks of it similar to what ohgood mentioned.
If it just blew straight back, maybe the cam chain tensioner?
Would that affect performance? Because I was still able to ride it back home (a couple blocks thankfully) and it was fine performance wise, just leaking oil.
Quote from: Nick89 on December 14, 2011, 11:47:08 AMAlso that oil is black, whats the last time you changed the oil?
This is what oil looks like after 350 miles in a water cooled bike, an air cooled bike might even be darker?
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/350.jpg)
Quote from: Watevaman on December 14, 2011, 06:02:10 PM
Would that affect performance? Because I was still able to ride it back home (a couple blocks thankfully) and it was fine performance wise, just leaking oil.
if you're gushing oil it's obviously going to affect performance. A cooled engine runs much better than a hot engine and as you get closer to running out of oil your engine verges on seizing. According to my Hayne's manual the sound you'll be looking for is a howl coming from your crankcase which indicates you're just about empty on oil. I can't confirm/deny this, I've never had a bike spray oil everywhere - nor do I ever want one to.
Well yeah, I know running no oil isn't a good thing lol, but I was more talking about the actually bike not running right because of the cam chain tensioner or maybe running rough, because other than it losing oil like mad, it was still ok.
I appreciate all the help guys. I know from the info I've given you, it could be a million things, but when I can check the bike out again this weekend I'll document what I see and bump this thread if needed.
Quote from: adidasguy on December 14, 2011, 05:55:11 PM
If it just blew straight back, maybe the cam chain tensioner?
I 2nd that one.
I thought of that out of the blue driving to work last night.
I cringed when I saw that video man.
Obviously it's a seal. Wash the bike with a little degreaser, clean it up, and as the others said, sprinkle baby powder and fill'er up and figure out where that thing is gushing from.
The only time I had this happen is when I had the oil filter o-ring blow out. If you weren't going any where it would be localized to the area behind the rear if the motor.
Hopefully your breather tube was clogged - but any oil from that tube should just be more of a watery "residue".
If your CCT would have fallen off, you would hear a LOT if clicking from the motor. Probably just blew a gasket around it or the head cover gasket. Nothing should have made the oil shoot up - so it probably just went straight back and down (from the wind).
I know it's been awhile, but finally got to look at the bike today (merry christmas!) with a few uncles who know their way around bike engines. Turns out there was a bunch of gas mixed in with the oil, which would explain the smell.
One of them said it's possibly a float issue since the right plug is pretty fouled and smells pretty bad. Is it something easy to check for someone without much experience with carbs? I don't want to pull them off and find I can't put them back together if I need to.
Edit: PO said he rejetted for the V&H exhaust but I don't know what size they are unfortunately. If that's even relevant.
Quote from: Watevaman on December 25, 2011, 07:34:13 PM
I know it's been awhile, but finally got to look at the bike today (merry christmas!) with a few uncles who know their way around bike engines. Turns out there was a bunch of gas mixed in with the oil, which would explain the smell.
One of them said it's possibly a float issue since the right plug is pretty fouled and smells pretty bad. Is it something easy to check for someone without much experience with carbs? I don't want to pull them off and find I can't put them back together if I need to.
Edit: PO said he rejetted for the V&H exhaust but I don't know what size they are unfortunately. If that's even relevant.
If you're getting gas into the crank there's only two things that could cause this. One is that the o-ring around the float needle seat is worn out or your floats/float needles are messed up. More than likely your float needle(s) are beat up.
I would recommend, before you go ANY further, getting yourself a shop manual for the bike. Clymer is pretty good from my experience. Not as good as a dealer's manual but they're pretty damn expensive comparatively. The Clymer will have all of the information on how to adjust the floats and what they need to be set to.
List of possible problems:
Float sticking?
Float level not set correctly?
Float-needle-seat o-rings old/worn out?
Float-needles worn out? (This is easy to figure out. All they are are little brass "weights" with a rubber, conical tip. The tips should be COMPLETELY free of defect of any kind. If they're not they need to be replaced. If one is okay and the other isn't, it's probably a good idea just to replace both)
I've seen a few carb rebuild kits with o-rings, new float bowl gaskets, and a set of new float needles.
ABSOLUTELY, every time, replace the float bowl gaskets. While you're at it, replace the JIS screws on the float bowls with allen/hex bolts. The JIS screws are worthless. I got mine from home depot. Just take the old ones in and ask them (if you don't know how) find you a new set with the aforementioned allen/hex heads.
A picture is worth a thousand words:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=56601.0
Take a good look over that. Scroll down and it'll show what the float "needle seat" looks like and also what the needles themselves look like.
Is there gas actually in the oil?? Does the oil on the dipstick smell like gas? Maybe I'm missing something but i don't see how a stuck/leaking float would cause an oil leak...
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on December 26, 2011, 03:35:49 PM
Is there gas actually in the oil?? Does the oil on the dipstick smell like gas? Maybe I'm missing something but i don't see how a stuck/leaking float would cause an oil leak...
-Jessie
Gas in the oil increasing the volume of liquid inside the crank, thus increasing the oil pressure until something finally gives.
FYI it's normal for some gas to be inside the crank but not excessive amounts.
Yeah, that's what my uncle told me. The oil being thinner and less viscous means more liquid, increasing the pressure.
Thanks for the list of possible culprits. I have a Haynes manual but I'll probably end up at least taking the carb apart with my uncle, as nobody I know personally has any experience with carbs and I definitely don't want to screw it up.
Would the float needle also explain why I had gas seemingly dripping off of the air filter for about a week or two before this incident? I had read into it but didn't find anything other than that can be normal at times.
But wouldn't a stuck float just let gas leak out the over flow? And even then, only until the gas flows out of the lines if the engine is off and the petcock is working properly. What am I missing?
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on December 26, 2011, 04:14:31 PM
But wouldn't a stuck float just let gas leak out the over flow? And even then, only until the gas flows out of the lines if the engine is off and the petcock is working properly. What am I missing?
-Jessie
What's happening is there's gas coming up through the main jet and into the throat of the carburetor and then being sucked into the intake causing the fouled plugs. If there's a lot of gas it's probably seeping into the cylinder while it's not running. On the carburetor there's really no "overflow" to speak of. There's a vent line which is at the top of the carbs (which is above the intake), a vacuum line on the side of the carb, and the main fuel line that runs in around the bowls. There's really nowhere for the extra gas to go except inside the airbox or into the intake.
I should say that I'm speaking on experience with the older style carbs. I'm not sure about the newer ones but my guess is they're pretty similar. I won't know for sure until I eventually pull the carbs on my 07.
Edit: Just looked at the video and he has an older bike, in which case the above applies.
Quote from: Watevaman on December 26, 2011, 04:10:29 PM
Yeah, that's what my uncle told me. The oil being thinner and less viscous means more liquid, increasing the pressure.
Thanks for the list of possible culprits. I have a Haynes manual but I'll probably end up at least taking the carb apart with my uncle, as nobody I know personally has any experience with carbs and I definitely don't want to screw it up.
Would the float needle also explain why I had gas seemingly dripping off of the air filter for about a week or two before this incident? I had read into it but didn't find anything other than that can be normal at times.
Dripping off...where? The bottom? Or actually inside the box? Is the drain line on the airbox connected properly? If there's gas inside the airbox (and a good amount), then yes...the floats would cause that.
Also...no offense but NOT GOOD if you have gas dripping from anywhere. For one it's a fire hazard...secondly it's a sign of a serious issue. Gas/water/oil dripping out of the run-off line coming from the bottom of the airbox is acceptable but shouldn't be a frequent sighting.
Quote from: Kijona on December 26, 2011, 04:21:29 PM
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on December 26, 2011, 04:14:31 PM
But wouldn't a stuck float just let gas leak out the over flow? And even then, only until the gas flows out of the lines if the engine is off and the petcock is working properly. What am I missing?
-Jessie
What's happening is there's gas coming up through the main jet and into the throat of the carburetor and then being sucked into the intake causing the fouled plugs. If there's a lot of gas it's probably seeping into the cylinder while it's not running. On the carburetor there's really no "overflow" to speak of. There's a vent line which is at the top of the carbs (which is above the intake), a vacuum line on the side of the carb, and the main fuel line that runs in around the bowls. There's really nowhere for the extra gas to go except inside the airbox or into the intake.
I must have been thinking of my Yamaha's carb with the over flow. But back to my original point, if the engine is off and the frame petcock is working properly the most fuel fuel you should have flow through a stuck float is just what is in the fuel line between the petcock and carb which can't be much. And if the engine is running it should push excess fuel out the exhaust (even with a dead miss). I'm just not seeing how his oil has become contaminated with gas to the point of causing a leak. I think they are 2 separate problems. My 2 cents...
-Jessie
Quote from: Kijona on December 26, 2011, 05:20:50 PM
Quote from: Watevaman on December 26, 2011, 04:10:29 PM
Yeah, that's what my uncle told me. The oil being thinner and less viscous means more liquid, increasing the pressure.
Thanks for the list of possible culprits. I have a Haynes manual but I'll probably end up at least taking the carb apart with my uncle, as nobody I know personally has any experience with carbs and I definitely don't want to screw it up.
Would the float needle also explain why I had gas seemingly dripping off of the air filter for about a week or two before this incident? I had read into it but didn't find anything other than that can be normal at times.
Dripping off...where? The bottom? Or actually inside the box? Is the drain line on the airbox connected properly? If there's gas inside the airbox (and a good amount), then yes...the floats would cause that.
Also...no offense but NOT GOOD if you have gas dripping from anywhere. For one it's a fire hazard...secondly it's a sign of a serious issue. Gas/water/oil dripping out of the run-off line coming from the bottom of the airbox is acceptable but shouldn't be a frequent sighting.
I don't have an airbox. It was dripping off the back plastic (as the air filter is slightly angled down towards the back) of the K&N lunchbox.
And yeah, I only rode one time in between noticing the gas leaking, and that was after about 5 days of not seeing anything. Whatever I found at the time in my searches obviously reinforced my thoughts of riding or otherwise I wouldn't have ridden the one time I did.
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on December 26, 2011, 08:07:22 PM
Quote from: Kijona on December 26, 2011, 04:21:29 PM
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on December 26, 2011, 04:14:31 PM
But wouldn't a stuck float just let gas leak out the over flow? And even then, only until the gas flows out of the lines if the engine is off and the petcock is working properly. What am I missing?
-Jessie
What's happening is there's gas coming up through the main jet and into the throat of the carburetor and then being sucked into the intake causing the fouled plugs. If there's a lot of gas it's probably seeping into the cylinder while it's not running. On the carburetor there's really no "overflow" to speak of. There's a vent line which is at the top of the carbs (which is above the intake), a vacuum line on the side of the carb, and the main fuel line that runs in around the bowls. There's really nowhere for the extra gas to go except inside the airbox or into the intake.
I must have been thinking of my Yamaha's carb with the over flow. But back to my original point, if the engine is off and the frame petcock is working properly the most fuel fuel you should have flow through a stuck float is just what is in the fuel line between the petcock and carb which can't be much. And if the engine is running it should push excess fuel out the exhaust (even with a dead miss). I'm just not seeing how his oil has become contaminated with gas to the point of causing a leak. I think they are 2 separate problems. My 2 cents...
-Jessie
Yes...you're right. Once would be almost inconsequential. However, multiply that by how many dozens of times he rode it before he realized there was gas getting into the crankcase. There is only one way for the gas to get into the crank and that's through the carb. I suppose it's possible this whole time his bike has only been running on one cylinder but that seems HIGHLY unlikely...unless he just didn't notice it...which I would also think would be highly unlikely.
Quote from: Watevaman on December 26, 2011, 08:23:26 PM
Quote from: Kijona on December 26, 2011, 05:20:50 PM
Quote from: Watevaman on December 26, 2011, 04:10:29 PM
Yeah, that's what my uncle told me. The oil being thinner and less viscous means more liquid, increasing the pressure.
Thanks for the list of possible culprits. I have a Haynes manual but I'll probably end up at least taking the carb apart with my uncle, as nobody I know personally has any experience with carbs and I definitely don't want to screw it up.
Would the float needle also explain why I had gas seemingly dripping off of the air filter for about a week or two before this incident? I had read into it but didn't find anything other than that can be normal at times.
Dripping off...where? The bottom? Or actually inside the box? Is the drain line on the airbox connected properly? If there's gas inside the airbox (and a good amount), then yes...the floats would cause that.
Also...no offense but NOT GOOD if you have gas dripping from anywhere. For one it's a fire hazard...secondly it's a sign of a serious issue. Gas/water/oil dripping out of the run-off line coming from the bottom of the airbox is acceptable but shouldn't be a frequent sighting.
I don't have an airbox. It was dripping off the back plastic (as the air filter is slightly angled down towards the back) of the K&N lunchbox.
And yeah, I only rode one time in between noticing the gas leaking, and that was after about 5 days of not seeing anything. Whatever I found at the time in my searches obviously reinforced my thoughts of riding or otherwise I wouldn't have ridden the one time I did.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was criticizing you. I was just trying to give you the correct information. It's totally understandable that you heard it was okay and didn't worry about it - no harm done. :)
Bit of a bump but I checked the floats just now and they're clean as a whistle and to my untrained eye they looked level when fully pushed in. I don't have calipers so I don't know if I can accurately measure as per the wiki.
Also, once I get my headers off (for those that have read the other thread, bolt sheared) I'm going to change the oil and see where this leak is coming from.
So as a question here (don't really want to clutter with another thread, but will do if you guys suggest it), what else could cause gas to get in the oil as much as it did? Any other parts of the carbs that would let gas past?
Incorrectly routed fuel line or really worn out piston rings are the only options popping into my mind.
-Jessie
Yeah, that other thread with the hosing diagram made me think about maybe fuel hoses being routed incorrectly but am I wrong in thinking that the bike running fine for the month before this event happening would rule that out? And the bike was sitting in the PO's garage without being run for who knows how long.
There is only one fuel line to the carb so if you were riding it that rules out that possibility. You could do a compression check to see how the rings are. Was the oil really thin feeling?
-Jessie
I didn't get a chance to feel the oil or anything at the time.
I believe my dad has a compression tester so I can probably do a test per your video.
Quote from: Watevaman on February 06, 2012, 06:34:54 PM
So as a question here (don't really want to clutter with another thread, but will do if you guys suggest it), what else could cause gas to get in the oil as much as it did? Any other parts of the carbs that would let gas past?
Torn frame petcock diaphram
Quote from: Watevaman on February 06, 2012, 06:50:54 PM
I didn't get a chance to feel the oil or anything at the time.
I'm just still having trouble believing you got so much gas in your fuel that it got over filled to the point of blowing out a gasket. My 2 cents...
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on February 06, 2012, 07:41:29 PM
Quote from: Watevaman on February 06, 2012, 06:50:54 PM
I didn't get a chance to feel the oil or anything at the time.
I'm just still having trouble believing you got so much gas in your fuel that it got over filled to the point of blowing out a gasket. My 2 cents...
-Jessie
Well I just went out and smelled the oil that's still sitting in there and it still reeks of gas so unless it's supposed to smell like that I don't know what else to say. Combined with the fouled right plug I don't know what else to tell you, which is why I'm wanting to check everything possible to ensure this doesn't happen again.
Quote from: Paulcet on February 06, 2012, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: Watevaman on February 06, 2012, 06:34:54 PM
So as a question here (don't really want to clutter with another thread, but will do if you guys suggest it), what else could cause gas to get in the oil as much as it did? Any other parts of the carbs that would let gas past?
Torn frame petcock diaphram
Did you check this?
Nope, but I'll get to it either tomorrow afternoon or Thursday.
Although can someone explain what exactly happens if there's a torn diaphragm? I'm under the impression that the fuel would still flow into the carb bowls and sit there first, but obviously that's not the case if that can cause gas to get in the oil.
Then fuel would flow down the vacuum tube into the carb on the engine side.
So just so I know what I'm looking at, it's the hose marked vacuum hose that I would remove and see if gas flows through the frame mounted petcock?
(http://gstwin.com/images/how_to/fuel%20hose/www_gs500_de_HoseRouting.jpg)
And to test it, could I connect a funnel to the ON Fuel Hose and run gas through it with the vacuum hose disconnected?
Yep. I think that would do it.
To see if gas flows through the frame mounted pet chicken, simply put it in PRIME position. No need to disconnect the vacuum line. If you disconnect that, gas will not flow in the ON or RES positions and your left carb will have a vacuum leak.
PRIME overrides the vacuum and will let gas flow even with the engine off.
If you pull that vacuum hose and gas squirts out of the vacuum input to the pet chicken, then it needs replacing or rebuilding. Unlikely that the diaphragm would get a hole in it, but it has been known to happen.
If it was bad, gas would get sucked into the left carb and not sure what it would do, but would mess it up. It would not affect the right carb as the vacuum to the petcock only connects to the left carb.
The gas side of the things is separate from the oil. There is no connection between the gas and the oil. Excess gas in the left carb should not cause gas in the oil. It can cause gas to flow into the air box or flood the carb.
Quote from: adidasguy on February 06, 2012, 10:27:44 PM
The gas side of the things is separate from the oil. There is no connection between the gas and the oil. Excess gas in the left carb should not cause gas in the oil. It can cause gas to flow into the air box or flood the carb.
On our bikes, this is usually the case. Unless the bike is facing downhill, or fuel is running into the vacuum port. I believe the port is forward of the bowl and throttle plate -- so fuel would run forward into the intake port, not back to the air box.
I think the gas in the intake would get blown out the cylinder, not mix with the oil unless the rings were bad.
I did have gas drip out of the air intake of the carbs (and into the airbox) when Trey was acting up. Also, when I had the shop gas tank too high, gas poured from the air intake of the carbs to the air box (once I remembered to close the float bowl drains, 'cause with 'em open the gas went all over the engine and floor :technical: ).
Just tested the compression. Both left and right cylinders were ~150 psi. According to Baltimore's youtube vid that's within spec, so I'm guessing that rules out piston rings?
Edit: This is turning out to be a pain the butt of a bike. Left header bolts feel like they're welded in, gas in the oil, oil leak, bah. I mean, it's "fun" learning what might be going wrong, but I just want to ride it again. Isn't that what we all want with our first bikes?
Quote from: Paulcet on February 07, 2012, 10:32:26 AM
Quote from: adidasguy on February 06, 2012, 10:27:44 PM
The gas side of the things is separate from the oil. There is no connection between the gas and the oil. Excess gas in the left carb should not cause gas in the oil. It can cause gas to flow into the air box or flood the carb.
On our bikes, this is usually the case. Unless the bike is facing downhill, or fuel is running into the vacuum port. I believe the port is forward of the bowl and throttle plate -- so fuel would run forward into the intake port, not back to the air box.
Well, yes and no. If the floats are out of whack or stuck, what can happen is fuel can flow up through the jets, into the venturi, and then into the intake and airbox. Once it gets into the intake all bets are off. If it's left like that who knows what could happen.
As far as oil in the airbox, that can be caused by the excess of liquid in the crank and some of it overflowing into the vent line on the top of the valve cover which goes directly to the airbox. Or, in his case, off to the side somewhere?
All of this, however, is dependent upon the frame petcock being FUBAR'ed, or it being left on PRI. Since it can't continue to flow (theoretically) after the bike is stopped, no fuel could make its way into the intake/airbox. There would also be no pressure on it which would remove the possibility of what's left in the bowls getting in there.
Seems like the most logical explanation is either A) fuel is flowing into the carb through the vacuum line from the petcock or B) the petcock is not functioning properly and allowing fuel to continue to flow after the bike is shut off.
Option A seems very, very likely. We had another member recently who had the same issue. As far as fuel hosing is concerned, you've got basically 4 lines: RES, MAIN, VAC, and CARB. Reserve and main come from the bottom of the tank and go into the frame petcock. The frame petcock has two additional lines from there: VAC and CARB. Carb line is the line that goes from the petcock to the actual carbs. The vacuum is the one that's all the way behind everything else on the petcock (if memory serves). It's of smaller diameter than any of the other lines so it'll be easy to find.
The VAC line should be free of any gas or other liquids. If there's even a hint of gasoline inside it, then there is your problem.
Well, this is weird. I just went outside and looked at the hoses (can't test them, as I'm on the way to class in a minute), but I saw is what should be the RES fuel line (on the right of the frame mounted petcock) going to the bottom T connection, and the OUTLET hose was going to the tank. The two large hoses on the left were the ones going to the tank mounted petcock. Now, I'm not really thinking straight right now, but how the heck was the bike running if the outlet hose wasn't even going to the right place? Everytime I rode it over the course of the month that I did, I had the frame petcock on the ON position, not RES.
Quote from: Kijona on February 08, 2012, 11:17:50 AMAs far as oil in the airbox, that can be caused by the excess of liquid in the crank and some of it overflowing into the vent line on the top of the valve cover which goes directly to the airbox. Or, in his case, off to the side somewhere?
You know, I didn't think of it like that. Might not have been a gasket that blew at all, as that hose did have a lot of a liquid feel when I took the tank off. And as I said before, there was a bit of gas dripping off the air filter (lunchbox, so no airbox) a few weeks before this happened.
At this point I think the best thing to do would be to start by removing the tank and all the lines associated with the carb and vents and everything else. Reconnect everything correctly, then go from there. Sometimes the best way to fix something is to start over from the beginning.
You'll also want to change that oil before you ride it.
I've had the tank off, that's how I got the carbs out to look at the float needles. And that's how I noticed this fuel hose issue.