Hello, everyone, and Merry Christmas to all.
I have the classic hanging idle problem:
Bike starts cold with choke (enricher) engaged. I have to pull the throttle a bit or else it dies. After a minute or two, it revs up to about 4k. At that moment I can get going w/choke on. About 10 min later, I can release the choke and go to "normal", but if I stop, the revs go above 4k. I control them with the clutch, which I know is just killing it.
Anyway, this week I'm off work, and I will solve this problem with your help. Yes, I have read just about every post there is about this issue. I'm not checking my valves until I work my way to them - I recently serviced the engine w/new rings, honing, valve lapping.
Today I took down the carbs. First thing I find is sediment. Brick colored dust in both bowls. I'm thinking "this is good", because I'd rather have a definite reason for things being what they are.
Here's my first question: My bike is an 02 (I know it's really an 01) and has the carbon canister for emission control. However, it is disabled. It isn't connected to the carbs. Furthermore, the carbs are Mikuni 01DQ/T5X1 and don't have the nipples at the bottom where the hoses that go to the carbon canister connect. They do have places that look like that would be where you'd put the nipples, but I suspect that there's nothing there (there's no hole going to the area under the butterfly)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/Maos%20GS500/IMG_1043.jpg)
In the pics you can see 4 tiny holes under the butterfly, 3 for the jets and one for the mixture screw (some people would still call it the "air screw). In an older carb body that has the nipples for the canister, I can see those 4 tiny holes, as well as a bit larger hole that is directly above the nipples. (I can't use that carb body because it is incomplete)
My question is, am I correct in that this particular carb doesn't have a via for a carb canister nipple?
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/Maos%20GS500/IMG_1044.jpg)
Second question: What would be recommended to clean the fuel tank?
Third: Should I change the petcock under the tank?
Fourth: Seems to me that to cancel variables, I should also replace the other petcock (how do you call it?), the one that you turn the valve to set the flow to RES/PRI/ON?
So, that's my battle plan: 1. Clean the tank 2. Change the fuel petcock valve (and the one under the tank if you really recommend it) 3. Add a fuel filter 4. Thoroughly clean the carbs (again)
If this battle doesn't with the war, then I guess it would be on to the valves.
Thank you all for your help, guidance and suggestions.
Mauricio
Another question: Say I want to check the fuel petcock valve. As I understand it, both RES and ON supply fuel only when vacuum from the carbs open a diaphragm that lets fuel circulate at the petcock; fuel only flows when the engine is on. PRI, on the other hand, overides this and lets fuel flow freely. Could I remove the vacuum hose from carb to petcock, cap the vacuum port at the carb, and run the petcock valve at PRI? would the carbs flood always? Can the bike be run like this?
I see some gunk in your carb man. It's time to give it a thorough cleaning (dipping). I've heard one of the best ways to clean the carbs, rubber and all, is to drop them in a pot of boiling water for about 15 minutes and then use WD-40 to get rid of all the water in all the passages along with some compressed air.
The issues you're describing are indicative of a sticking diaphragm.
I don't think it's worth replacing the petcocks - they either work or they don't as far as I understand it, and, most of what you're describing isn't pointing to the petcocks. Just my 2 cents though.
To clean the tank I would recommend a thorough sloshing to remove any sediment. You can use "B-12 Chemtool" and that should free up any kind of funk you've got growing in your tank. I know they make a specific product for cleaning fuel tanks but B-12 should be sufficient. It's about $3.99 for a pint.
Use your compressed air to blow back through the "tank mounted" petcock to clear the screen out. :)
Hello, and thanks for the reply. I'm boiling the carbs in lemon juice today. Regarding the stuck diaphragm, how can I tell if this is the problem? What would the solution be?
What ... you trying to make lemonade ?
DUDE CLEAN IT WITH TOOTHBRUSH - lemon juice has acids that will etch the aluminum.
Toothbrush and wd40 and gas is all I'd use on carbs.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: vasama on December 27, 2011, 12:09:34 PM
Hello, and thanks for the reply. I'm boiling the carbs in lemon juice today. Regarding the stuck diaphragm, how can I tell if this is the problem? What would the solution be?
The lemon juice is unnecessary. If you must use something acidic, try a 1:10 dilution ratio with water and vinegar. However, keep in mind it's completely unnecessary to use anything acidic. The heat from boiling water and steam will be enough to clean them quite nicely. Alternatively, if you have some way of getting some steam going (like a Steam Shark) you can use that too. Just make sure you disassemble the carb after you expose it to water to make sure you have ALL of the water OUT before you go trying to run it.
Good luck.
Quote from: vasama on December 27, 2011, 12:09:34 PM
Regarding the stuck diaphragm, how can I tell if this is the problem? What would the solution be?
If your diaphragm is stuck, a simple removal of the top caps (the black ones) will tell you this. Carefully inspect them [the diaphragms] for any cracks or holes of any kind or if they look dried out. If there is any sign of wear you will need to replace them.
You'll have to take them off when you go to get the water from the boiling out of the carb anyway.
Acids<<< I KNOW!!! I said the same, but I read in several places of people swearing by the stuff. At the very least they talk about boiling water for about 10 min. Something about it going through all the passages and what not.
So, Buddah, now that I have your attention, after I clean the carb bodies, any product in particular that you'd recommend to clean the gas tank? Also, what's your take regarding the frame mounted fuel petcock... keep it or not?
Thanks
Quote from: vasama on December 27, 2011, 01:40:54 PM
Acids<<< I KNOW!!! I said the same, but I read in several places of people swearing by the stuff. At the very least they talk about boiling water for about 10 min. Something about it going through all the passages and what not.
So, Buddah, now that I have your attention, after I clean the carb bodies, any product in particular that you'd recommend to clean the gas tank? Also, what's your take regarding the frame mounted fuel petcock... keep it or not?
Thanks
I'm telling you man...don't put acid in the water. It'll make the aluminum all dusty and nasty and make it to where you have to clean it AGAIN. Lol. Boiling water is just as effective.
White vinegar will remove rust and steel BB's inside the tank should really dislodge all that mess. I don't know of any product specifically for cleaning gas tanks but the vinegar/steel BB combo worked wonders on my old dirtbike gas tank.
I have no idea how many miles your bike has done, but if it needed a freshen up I'm guessing it's a few.
I'd recommend replacing all jets and the float needle and seat. Jets are hard to effectively clean properly and wear out over time. They aren't really that expensive and you already have the carbs apart.
Then it's one less thing to go wrong. Good luck :thumb:
Quote from: mitch79 on December 28, 2011, 03:11:44 AM
I have no idea how many miles your bike has done, but if it needed a freshen up I'm guessing it's a few.
I'd recommend replacing all jets and the float needle and seat. Jets are hard to effectively clean properly and wear out over time. They aren't really that expensive and you already have the carbs apart.
Then it's one less thing to go wrong. Good luck :thumb:
I think he's determined to boil his carbs in lemon juice, dude. And apparently Buddha is the only person that knows how to clean carbs. :technical:
Quote from: Kijona on December 28, 2011, 08:43:01 AM
Quote from: mitch79 on December 28, 2011, 03:11:44 AM
I have no idea how many miles your bike has done, but if it needed a freshen up I'm guessing it's a few.
I'd recommend replacing all jets and the float needle and seat. Jets are hard to effectively clean properly and wear out over time. They aren't really that expensive and you already have the carbs apart.
Then it's one less thing to go wrong. Good luck :thumb:
I think he's determined to boil his carbs in lemon juice, dude. And apparently Buddha is the only person that knows how to clean carbs. :technical:
well, given the thread has suggestions that boiling in acid is a -good- idea... mmm hmm, might want to check out the buddha's skillset.
instead of boiling them ( wtf ? ) try pinesol. yes, plain old pinesol. give it two days in 100% pinesol, no boiling, chanting, or bludgening involved. if you don't believe me, toss a dirty bearing in it. you'll be amazed.
the high idle problem is likey a leaking intake boot, or lack of air cleaner, given the mess on the inside of the air passages. i'd bet on poor idle adjustment as a cause, and a partially clogged idle circuit.
whatever you do, DO NOT soak any of the pieces in carb cleaner. it kills rubber and melts some plastics. you've been warned ! :)
Quote from: ohgood on December 28, 2011, 04:41:35 PM
Quote from: Kijona on December 28, 2011, 08:43:01 AM
Quote from: mitch79 on December 28, 2011, 03:11:44 AM
I have no idea how many miles your bike has done, but if it needed a freshen up I'm guessing it's a few.
I'd recommend replacing all jets and the float needle and seat. Jets are hard to effectively clean properly and wear out over time. They aren't really that expensive and you already have the carbs apart.
Then it's one less thing to go wrong. Good luck :thumb:
I think he's determined to boil his carbs in lemon juice, dude. And apparently Buddha is the only person that knows how to clean carbs. :technical:
well, given the thread has suggestions that boiling in acid is a -good- idea... mmm hmm, might want to check out the buddha's skillset.
instead of boiling them ( wtf ? ) try pinesol. yes, plain old pinesol. give it two days in 100% pinesol, no boiling, chanting, or bludgening involved. if you don't believe me, toss a dirty bearing in it. you'll be amazed.
the high idle problem is likey a leaking intake boot, or lack of air cleaner, given the mess on the inside of the air passages. i'd bet on poor idle adjustment as a cause, and a partially clogged idle circuit.
whatever you do, DO NOT soak any of the pieces in carb cleaner. it kills rubber and melts some plastics. you've been warned ! :)
Nah, I was just saying it didn't seem like he was listening to anyone but Buddha. :p
Boiling water isn't going to hurt your carbs...ever...unless you're silly enough to set the carbs down in the pan with the diaphragm covers facing the bottom of the pan. The only reason I suggested this is because it's the easiest and cheapest way to do it. It MAY or MAY NOT work, true, but it's the
least risky. I'm not sold on Pinesol yet but maybe someday I will be. I'd be afraid of ruining my rubber. :(
Whatever you do, just be careful!
Hello, all
Away from the computer the last couple of days...
Please, I didn't mean like I wanted advice only from Buddah... Not at all! the only reason I asked him directly is because it seems like he has lots of experience with carbs, from reading some of his posts, and I was curious on his take. I apologize. I truly apreciate everyone's comments and suggestions.
I did put the carbs bodies in boiling water for about 10 minutes. A ring of grime was formed at water level on the pot I used. The carbs didn't come out squeakly clean, though. The outside was still a bit dirty, and some dark areas remained on the inside. I want to boil them again. Should it be longer? I'll also try the pinesol... For how long?
The bike has 11k miles on it.
As for a leak on the boots, I did a WD40 "leak test". No change in revs after spraying it all around the boots. I believe (and hope) that it'll be down to thorough cleaning, and perhaps valve adjustment. I'll be doing the steel bb's (what about pellets?) in vinegar tomorrow for the gas tank. I'll be cleaning the tank petcock with compressed air. The bike was rejetted about two months ago, following the recommendations in this site. The exhaust is stock. When I rejetted, I also changed the valve needles and their seats.
One of my original questions: Can anyone confirm whether or not this carbs have the emmissions circuit or not? The bike is a 2002 (2001, really) but its carbs are not what the Clymer book show. They're more like the previous model year.
Thanks again
If you have the PAIR emissions system you will have two approx 1/2" metal pipes connecting to the cylinder heads between the exhaust manifolds, although this shouldn't affect the running of the bike.
Continue as your doing, cleaning and checking.
If you have a tank full of crap it won't take much to block your new jets.
I'll add to the list check/replace your vacuum lines, float levels and accelerator cable. Make sure the cable isn't too tight, there should be just a little slack. This is so the throttle remains on the idle stop at full left/right deflection of the handle bars.
I'd also have a close look at the condition of the diaphragms. Should be soft and pliable with obviously no holes.
Here're the carbs immersed in pinesol. The bottles on the side are simply raising the pinesol level so it completely covers the carbs.
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/Maos%20GS500/IMG_0605.jpg)
Quote from: vasama on December 30, 2011, 09:21:35 PM
Here're the carbs immersed in pinesol. The bottles on the side are simply raising the pinesol level so it completely covers the carbs.
[image deleted]
Let me know how that works man...I wanted to try this method but I was too scared. Hopefully you can tell us how it goes.
Quote from: vasama on December 29, 2011, 10:24:56 PM
Hello, all
Away from the computer the last couple of days...
Please, I didn't mean like I wanted advice only from Buddah... Not at all! the only reason I asked him directly is because it seems like he has lots of experience with carbs, from reading some of his posts, and I was curious on his take. I apologize. I truly apreciate everyone's comments and suggestions.
I did put the carbs bodies in boiling water for about 10 minutes. A ring of grime was formed at water level on the pot I used. The carbs didn't come out squeakly clean, though. The outside was still a bit dirty, and some dark areas remained on the inside. I want to boil them again. Should it be longer? I'll also try the pinesol... For how long?
The bike has 11k miles on it.
As for a leak on the boots, I did a WD40 "leak test". No change in revs after spraying it all around the boots. I believe (and hope) that it'll be down to thorough cleaning, and perhaps valve adjustment. I'll be doing the steel bb's (what about pellets?) in vinegar tomorrow for the gas tank. I'll be cleaning the tank petcock with compressed air. The bike was rejetted about two months ago, following the recommendations in this site. The exhaust is stock. When I rejetted, I also changed the valve needles and their seats.
One of my original questions: Can anyone confirm whether or not this carbs have the emmissions circuit or not? The bike is a 2002 (2001, really) but its carbs are not what the Clymer book show. They're more like the previous model year.
Thanks again
No problem. :) All in the name of helping a fellow rider!
I have no idea about emissions circuit but I can offer the following:
Steel BB's (I believe they're plated in nickel but you might luck up and find some stainless steel ones) are your best bet. They're ultra cheap at Wally World. I don't know if they make steel pellets but it seems unlikely. Plus, you get like 5lbs of BB's for the price of what you'd pay for one package of the pellets. Don't use the lead ones! Too soft. Also, DO NOT USE COPPER...obviously.
Step 1: Go to $1 Store and pick up two gallons of whatever vinegar they have (white is best because you can tell how dirty it gets, plus I think it's slightly stronger versus the others)
Step 2: Go to Walmart and pick up a big container of the silver BB's (I'd give you a link but I can't find them on wally world's site).
Step 3: Pour one gallon into the empty gas tank and slosh it around for about 5-10 minutes to ensure you get everything nice and saturated
Step 4: Let it sit over night (or 8hrs)
Step 5: Dump the whole container of BB's into the gas tank
Step 6: Start shaking/sloshing/whatever as long as you possibly can until you're tired.
Step 7: Take a break
Step 8: Repeat step 6. Be sure you turn it every which way and get those bb's really rolling in there.
Step 9: Drain that mucky mess out of there. Leave the BB's in for now.
Step 10: Add the second gallon of vinegar and repeat steps 6, 7, and 8.
Step 11: Drain everything. If it's still REALLY dirty at this point, you might want to rinse it a third time with the BB's. Note: will require more vinegar! :D You can re-use the BB's though. Just put them in a towel and clean them (use the "bowling ball polishing technique"...this will work nicely)
Step 12: Add a gallon of your favorite, cheap gas and slosh it around AGAIN.
Step 13: Drain and give your lawn mower some "spiked" gas. :laugh:
Hope this helps! :)
Edit: For step 10 you could probably use half a gallon. :dunno_black: You decide!
Hello, and happy new year to all!
So, I'm ready to take the carbs out of the pinesol. What should I use to rinse them off? I'm thinking a second round of boiling water...?
I also left the tank soaking with a gallon of vinegar. I'm in the bb's stage right now. a couple more shakes and I'll rinse it.
Quote from: vasama on January 02, 2012, 01:29:48 PM
Hello, and happy new year to all!
So, I'm ready to take the carbs out of the pinesol. What should I use to rinse them off? I'm thinking a second round of boiling water...?
I also left the tank soaking with a gallon of vinegar. I'm in the bb's stage right now. a couple more shakes and I'll rinse it.
Perfect. Boil the carbs in water for about 10-15 minutes to make sure all the pinesol is gone and then you can spray the passages and everything with a generous amount of WD-40. (Hint: "WD-40" stands for 'Water Displacer - 40wt"). :)
Pinsol SHOULD float to the top of the boiling water!
Will do. Thanks.
Now I have another problem: The BB's. I've taken most of them out, but some remain, and it seems pretty clear that the tank has some sort of passages or double-skin in some areas, which is making it pretty frustrating to get the last ones out.
Any hints or tips for this? Is there a specific way I should rotate the tank in order to get the balls to go to the bottom, where I could fish them with the magnet?
This is the *white* vinegar after a day in the tank, and a few shakes of the bb's!!! (I honestly thought the tank was clean, based on how the bottom looked when I could see it)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/Maos%20GS500/vinegar.jpg)
Excellent work man. :) Looking really good there! Post a pic of the inside of the tank too, if you can.
As far as retrieving the BB's, just get yourself a magnet, wrap it in cloth (in case you get too close and it decides to grab onto the tank), and hover it around where you suspect the BB's are lodged. Move them out towards the center and then grab them with another magnet (telescopic kind for picking up nuts and bolts in hard to reach places).
Word of advice: don't leave that tank sitting around for too long else it'll start rusting again. :) Make sure you put a gallon or two of fresh gas in it for now. You can always drain it again later.
I also wanted to emphasize the importance of making sure there's not a bunch of sediment still in the tank after having been dislodged by the bb's and vinegar. On the second round of vinegar make sure it's almost clear when it comes out. And make SURE you REALLY shake that tank up when you add the gas to it...you want to make sure you get all of the vinegar out.
Good luck to ya, let us know how it goes!
So, I got the carbs out of the pinesol and into boiling water. After about 8 min, a film of gunk started forming at the top of them. I fished out a bit of it. It looks gross:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/Maos%20GS500/IMAG0168.jpg)
I took the carbs out after another couple of minutes, and they had this film - that by now was getting more like a solid film - in many places. I took out as much as I could, but clearly, this stuff can and will block the passages if left there. I decided to boil them a bit more.
These are the carbs after I took them out of the boiling water the first time:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/Maos%20GS500/IMAG0169.jpg)
Damn man...I never would've guessed that would happen. I guess it's the pine oil or whatever the hell is in pinesol, solidifying. Is it really super sticky or is it just kind of like...rubber cement..? :technical: :technical:
The good news is it's not too late to spray out the passages with good 'ol carb cleaner followed with some compressed air. Just remove what you can and spray them out. Should be fine. Be sure you remove both pilot jets and main jets and spray them out. You might need a strand of copper wire from a lamp cord or similar to get the funk out of the pilot jet.
Carb cleaner should eat right through that funk.
Just do what you feel best about. Let me know what you decide to do and how it turns out.
Edit: It just struck me...see if some regular old gasoline will dissolve that crud. That's obviously the easiest thing to do.
Get this tool to clean out the jets and holes:
http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/4/22/278/10115/ITEM/K-L-Carb-Cleaner-Wire-Set.aspx
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Assorted/K_and_L_Carb_Cleaner_Wire_Set.jpg)
When in doubt, new jets. They're cheap.
When in doubt, new gaskets.
In fact, when in doubt, go new. Eliminate the unknown. Always leave things better than they were before you started.
My preference would be find a good set of carbs from a running bike for $100-$150 rather than take 2 weeks cleaning a set and still have them full of gunk. Or send them to PJ Motorsports and for $99 plus parts, they clean and rebuild carbs.
Then I'd use the bad set in my spare time to learn about carbs and see what I could do, while my bike is back together and rideable.
I'd rather be riding. I do whatever needed to reduce down time. Selling some of my old collections on ebay is financing my obsession with being a parts whore.
PS: When I cleaned Trey's extra set of carbs, I used only carb cleaner, air, new jets, new gasket & O rings, new float needls (even though old ones looked perfect) and replaced all screws with allen head stainless steel.
Quote from: vasama on January 03, 2012, 09:04:17 PM
So, I got the carbs out of the pinesol and into boiling water. After about 8 min, a film of gunk started forming at the top of them. I fished out a bit of it. It looks gross:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/Maos%20GS500/IMAG0168.jpg)
I took the carbs out after another couple of minutes, and they had this film - that by now was getting more like a solid film - in many places. I took out as much as I could, but clearly, this stuff can and will block the passages if left there. I decided to boil them a bit more.
These are the carbs after I took them out of the boiling water the first time:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/Maos%20GS500/IMAG0169.jpg)
That's the power of Pine Sol, BAby !
Anyone working on carbs should know that that some manufacturers use a sealant to impregnate the metal, because aluminum and zinc castings can be porous - therefore I'd be careful about choice of cleaning agents while making carburettor soup.
There are different formulations for pinesol - the classic has like 10% pine tar, plus some kinda alcohol and other stuff, that might or might not do damage to fuel system components ie the sealant in the carb material ...
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/what-carburetors-made-146219/
"The die-cast body is generally made of either aluminum or zinc. Since die-cast aluminum tends often to be porous, die-cast aluminum carburetor bodies must first be impregnated with a special sealing material. After casting, the body must be machined to provide numerous orifices, apertures and the like. While zinc may be used as a die-casting material and is not as porous as aluminum so that it does not need to be impregnated to seal the body, zinc is higher in weight and cost than aluminum and therefore is not a preferred material."
...
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/science-channel/37443-how-its-made-carburetors-video.htm
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine-Sol
After I boiled them for another 10 minutes, all that stuff was gone.
It was like dried white glue. You could almost peel it off from some places. It didn't look to be uniformly spread, but rather in some areas, mostly at the top and on the outside of the carbs. I sprayed them with carb cleaner (ran out of WD40 last night). The passages seem to be open - I could see spray coming out of the small holes in side while I was shooting carb cleaner through the jets. The jets are new (they have less than 80 miles on them).
I feel encouraged that I'm going the right direction to fix the issue because I found my gas tank to be filthy as hell! The second gallon of vinegar was very close in color to the first one (see pic). The third one was considerably better, and the three flushes I did with gas ended with pretty clear fuel coming out of the tank.
Tonight I assemble. I got an inline fuel filter and a new vacuum cap. That was another thing: When I was first troubleshooting, I checked for vacuum leaks at the boots and at the petcock, and found nothing, but I didn't check on that capped vacuum port. It turned out that the rubber cap was old and a bit cracked.
If this doesn't fix the hanging idle problem, the next step would be to check my valve clearances, which I also suspect.
I'm hoping that I didn't ruin the bodies with the pinesol, and that that gunk ends up being just a layer of dirt. I followed that advice believing that it had been done before... Oh, well, maybe I get lucky on this one...
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/Maos%20GS500/IMAG0170.jpg)
After fat cat's posting, can we all say "Time to search ebay for a set of carbs"?
Make offer for this set:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-SUZUKI-GS500-E-GS500E-GS-500-E-500E-CARBS-CARBURETORS-/150719791911?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2317998327
Quote from: adidasguy on January 04, 2012, 02:25:04 PM
After fat cat's posting, can we all say "Time to search ebay for a set of carbs"?
Make offer for this set:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-SUZUKI-GS500-E-GS500E-GS-500-E-500E-CARBS-CARBURETORS-/150719791911?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2317998327
Not so fast, Adidas. I think it's at least worth trying to see if they still function properly. He's got nothing left to lose, right?
I'm fairly convinced the substance produced was a reaction to the Pinesol and hot water - there's tar and other stuff in Pinesol. No reason to spend money if he doesn't have to. :)
If it doesn't work, well, at least he'll have tried.
Quote from: vasama on January 04, 2012, 02:11:43 PM
After I boiled them for another 10 minutes, all that stuff was gone.
It was like dried white glue. You could almost peel it off from some places. It didn't look to be uniformly spread, but rather in some areas, mostly at the top and on the outside of the carbs. I sprayed them with carb cleaner (ran out of WD40 last night). The passages seem to be open - I could see spray coming out of the small holes in side while I was shooting carb cleaner through the jets. The jets are new (they have less than 80 miles on them).
I feel encouraged that I'm going the right direction to fix the issue because I found my gas tank to be filthy as hell! The second gallon of vinegar was very close in color to the first one (see pic). The third one was considerably better, and the three flushes I did with gas ended with pretty clear fuel coming out of the tank.
Tonight I assemble. I got an inline fuel filter and a new vacuum cap. That was another thing: When I was first troubleshooting, I checked for vacuum leaks at the boots and at the petcock, and found nothing, but I didn't check on that capped vacuum port. It turned out that the rubber cap was old and a bit cracked.
If this doesn't fix the hanging idle problem, the next step would be to check my valve clearances, which I also suspect.
I'm hoping that I didn't ruin the bodies with the pinesol, and that that gunk ends up being just a layer of dirt. I followed that advice believing that it had been done before... Oh, well, maybe I get lucky on this one...
[image deleted]
As I said above, I'm fairly certain the gunk was just a reaction to pinesol and boiling water. Pinesol is full of tar and oil (maybe even pine sap...). I'm sure it'll be fine - GS500 carbs, especially the older ones, have value in mind so I doubt they put anything fancy like impregnated metals for the carb. But hey, what do I know?
Also, it's really good that you were able to clean that funk out of your tank. I'm glad to see you coming along so quickly! I'm sure once you put the bike back together it's going to purr like a kitten and run like a screaming demon!
Quote from: Kijona on January 04, 2012, 10:45:40 PM
Not so fast, Adidas. I think it's at least worth trying to see if they still function properly. He's got nothing left to lose, right?
That was the parts whore in me sneaking out. You can never have too many GS500 parts
(http://cdn.pnwriders.com/images/smilies/bonk.gif)
Quote from: vasama on January 04, 2012, 02:11:43 PM
After I boiled them for another 10 minutes, all that stuff was gone.
It was like dried white glue. You could almost peel it off from some places. It didn't look to be uniformly spread, but rather in some areas, mostly at the top and on the outside of the carbs. I sprayed them with carb cleaner (ran out of WD40 last night). The passages seem to be open - I could see spray coming out of the small holes in side while I was shooting carb cleaner through the jets. The jets are new (they have less than 80 miles on them).
I feel encouraged that I'm going the right direction to fix the issue because I found my gas tank to be filthy as hell! The second gallon of vinegar was very close in color to the first one (see pic). The third one was considerably better, and the three flushes I did with gas ended with pretty clear fuel coming out of the tank.
Tonight I assemble. I got an inline fuel filter and a new vacuum cap. That was another thing: When I was first troubleshooting, I checked for vacuum leaks at the boots and at the petcock, and found nothing, but I didn't check on that capped vacuum port. It turned out that the rubber cap was old and a bit cracked.
If this doesn't fix the hanging idle problem, the next step would be to check my valve clearances, which I also suspect.
I'm hoping that I didn't ruin the bodies with the pinesol, and that that gunk ends up being just a layer of dirt. I followed that advice believing that it had been done before... Oh, well, maybe I get lucky on this one...
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/Maos%20GS500/IMAG0170.jpg)
That gooey film may be something else - for instance the residue left behind by wd40 (fish oil) acted upon by the pinesol in some weird way, but who knows.
I'd just go ahead and use the carbs see what happens before spending $ on more carbs.
I posted that info for other people who are novice mechanics - I only use carb cleaner and gasoline - even carb cleaner can damage carb bodies if immersed too long, so I've been told. Don't intend to test that 'fact'.
Fish oil?
Hey, i KNEW that looked like a good curry sauce!
Quote from: Phil B on January 05, 2012, 09:36:07 AM
Fish oil?
Hey, i KNEW that looked like a good curry sauce!
My bad : wd40 does NOT contain fish oil - urban myth apparently - according to wd40 manufacturer.
Rustoleum, oth ...
Vasama where are ya bud? I'm really anxious to hear of your imminent success! :cheers:
January 11th
Sorry I hadn't updated before.
This is what's happened: I continued with the vinegar treatment of the tank, but I was getting flash rusting every time. I went through 5 gallons of vinegar, but each time I put gas back on it, after a couple of hours I could see more rust starting to form at the bottom.
I was really discouraged. A guy from a local radiator shop told me to use muriatic acid instead of vinegar, and I was just about ready to try that one out when I came to the realization that my problem was in my process. I wasn't rinsing out the vinegar residue before adding gas!
I had a bit of a time issue as well - I have two jobs - and I just didn't have enough time on an evening to go through the vinegar, the rinsing, the drying, and then the gas.
I contacted a local bike shop and they gave me the number of the place they send their tanks that need to be de-rusted. I called them and their price is 65 bucks (100 if I want it coated). This will be my solution. In hindsight, this is what I should have done to begin with, but then, we're the type of people that want to do this stuff on our own, right?
So, that's the update: the tank goes today to that shop, I'll get it back on Friday, so the forecast is of the bike being put back together this Saturday.
Quote from: vasama on January 11, 2012, 09:45:47 AM
January 11th
Sorry I hadn't updated before.
This is what's happened: I continued with the vinegar treatment of the tank, but I was getting flash rusting every time. I went through 5 gallons of vinegar, but each time I put gas back on it, after a couple of hours I could see more rust starting to form at the bottom.
I was really discouraged. A guy from a local radiator shop told me to use muriatic acid instead of vinegar, and I was just about ready to try that one out when I came to the realization that my problem was in my process. I wasn't rinsing out the vinegar residue before adding gas!
I had a bit of a time issue as well - I have two jobs - and I just didn't have enough time on an evening to go through the vinegar, the rinsing, the drying, and then the gas.
I contacted a local bike shop and they gave me the number of the place they send their tanks that need to be de-rusted. I called them and their price is 65 bucks (100 if I want a coat). This will be my solution. In hindsight, this is what I should have done to begin with, but then, we're the type of people that want to do this stuff on our own, right?
So, that's the update: the tank goes today to that shop, I'll get it back on Friday, so the forecast is of the bike being put back together this Saturday.
Aw man...that really sucks. Yeah like I said in my other post, it's important that after the initial de-rusting, you don't let vinegar sit in the tank. It's kind of a double-edged sword in a way because the same properties that makes vinegar great for removing rust and making metal all shiny and new...also will make it rust if it's left on metal that has no rust!
At any rate, at least you can say you tried it yourself. You're only out a few bucks for the vinegar and BB's (probably could take the BB's back to Wally World :cheers: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:).
Please let us know how it goes!
Hello, everybody!
Well, as some of you know, what started as a carb cleanup ended up being a complete paint job that has deviated into a head gasket change job, and now also a valve clearance job!
The bike is sitting in my garage completely torn off. The frame's been powder coated and is in one end of the garage, alone. I already attached the swingarm to it, but have not tightened it yet. I also got into my head that I wanted to powder coat the shock spring, and I'm doing that tonight.
Last night it was the engine's turn. I was supposed to put it together (clean the surfaces and install the new head gasket). Here's my first question: The reason I replaced the gasket is because I had a leak from my initial rebuild of this bike. I intended to add gasket sealant to it in order to get a better seal. I decided against it at the last minute, though, because the Clymer manual says not to use sealant. It says that these gaskets are supposed to expand when in contact with oil, so I left it alone. The question: Was I right to not use sealant? Do you think I should've?
Now, moving on, I did install the cylinder and its cover. I set the timing, and installed the camshaft. Next thing on my list was to check valve clearances, and I was a little bit surprised to find that both my intake valves are tight. Or so I think. The smallest feeler gauge I have is .0015 inch (.0381). I'll try to get a metric gauge, or at least a .001 inch one. Still, I got the feeling that half a thousandth won't be enough for the gauge to slide in there.
This I'm actually taking as good news! Remember that what brought me here was the hanging idle problem. Please, someone confirm or correct me in that tight intake valves would contribute to the hanging idle problem. I'll be happy if that is the case, because this would solve my carburation riddle.
Here's my last question of the day: Regarding valve shim tappets, is it really necessary to go with OEM here, or is there an alternative that would be a bit cheaper? (BTW, I would add my name to the "Kerry West Coast Valve Kit", but I believe I'm too new in the forum to be "vetted" to get them, not to mention that I would have to get in line, so it seems my best option is to simply buy what I need)
As always, thanks for any and all the input.
Forget about the shims. Talked to the local dealer and they're not that bad. 8 bucks a piece and I can swap them if I don't get the right size.
I would still appreciate, though, if someone could enlighten me on this idea that tight shim clearance would cause the intake valves not to close completely, therefore creating a somewhat constant supply of air/fuel, contributing big time to the hanging idle problem...? Yes? No?
Thanks again
Quote from: vasama on February 02, 2012, 08:59:26 AM
Forget about the shims. Talked to the local dealer and they're not that bad. 8 bucks a piece and I can swap them if I don't get the right size.
I would still appreciate, though, if someone could enlighten me on this idea that tight shim clearance would cause the intake valves not to close completely, therefore creating a somewhat constant supply of air/fuel, contributing big time to the hanging idle problem...? Yes? No?
Thanks again
Valves tighten over time due to them seating further into the head (we are talking tiny increments here). What you are referring to is the valves not opening quite enough (or long enough duration) to allow the proper air/fuel into the combustion chamber. If your valves were hanging open, there would be no sealed combustion chamber, and therefore you would have no running bike. The biggest sign of valves out of adjustment is hard cold starting. As for the hanging idle, valves are most likely not the issue......hanging/high idle is indictaive of a lean condition that could be due to partially clogged jets/petcock, or cracked/loose manifold (Think, too much air, not enough fuel).
Creeping ever sooo slowly towards completion...
Motor is up. Last night I connected the battery and did an electric systems check. It is a go!
Still have a little piece of plastic to finish painting, and I believe I'll be starting the bike before this week is over. That's when I'll post pics.
On the meantime, I have this little nugget left over. I forgot where it goes. Can someone please help me? What is this, and where does it go? (it looks like a bushing or spacer. It has no threads). It is about 1 inch tall, a bit under half inch outside diameter on the narrow side, and about 1 1/8 diameter on the large base.
Thanks as always...
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/Maos%20GS500/IMG_0347800x599.jpg)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/Maos%20GS500/IMG_0346800x599.jpg)
Looks like part number 5 on this fiche. That is the front wheel spacer.
http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/FRONT_WHEEL/MakeID/2/Make/Suzuki/YearID/34/Year/1993/ModelID/7106/Model/GS500E/GroupID/307538/Group/FRONT_WHEEL
Can't be from the front wheel. I never took it apart, plus tne internal diameter of this part is only 8.5 mm... it has to be something else...
Found it! Part number 6. It's for the exhaust mount.
http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/MUFFLER/MakeID/2/Make/Suzuki/YearID/34/Year/1993/ModelID/7106/Model/GS500E/GroupID/307541/Group/MUFFLER
That sure looks like it. I'll check tonight when I get home. Thanks so much!
At some point this bike will run...right? :icon_mrgreen:
Seriously, though, I'm glad you're getting it worked out. Hopefully you won't be plagued by any more carb problems. :cheers:
Good luck!
Yes it will run. In fact, the bike is assembled but for the plastics and seat. Waiting on the small plastic on the back to dry its clear coat. I'll be cranking the bike, maybe tonight. I'm really nervous about it. I obviously want the high idle problem to go away. Essentially, what I did for that was to de-rust the tank, cook the carbs, add a real, and tight, cap on the left vacuum port, checked and fixed valve clearances, and added an in-line fuel filter.
I tell you, if this thing comes back to life with the high idle, I'm gonna go bananas. Oh, by the way, through this process I also found that my air filter, of all things, was really, really overdue to be changed. Does a clogged air filter (air starvation) cause a high idle?
Mauricio
Quote from: vasama on February 23, 2012, 02:07:36 PM
Yes it will run. In fact, the bike is assembled but for the plastics and seat. Waiting on the small plastic on the back to dry its clear coat. I'll be cranking the bike, maybe tonight. I'm really nervous about it. I obviously want the high idle problem to go away. Essentially, what I did for that was to de-rust the tank, cook the carbs, add a real, and tight, cap on the left vacuum port, checked and fixed valve clearances, and added an in-line fuel filter.
I tell you, if this thing comes back to life with the high idle, I'm gonna go bananas. Oh, by the way, through this process I also found that my air filter, of all things, was really, really overdue to be changed. Does a clogged air filter (air starvation) cause a high idle?
Mauricio
I would think not. Less air intake should richen up the mixture and cause the idle to decrease. I may be wrong on this though.
Quote from: vasama on February 23, 2012, 02:07:36 PM
Yes it will run. In fact, the bike is assembled but for the plastics and seat. Waiting on the small plastic on the back to dry its clear coat. I'll be cranking the bike, maybe tonight. I'm really nervous about it. I obviously want the high idle problem to go away. Essentially, what I did for that was to de-rust the tank, cook the carbs, add a real, and tight, cap on the left vacuum port, checked and fixed valve clearances, and added an in-line fuel filter.
I tell you, if this thing comes back to life with the high idle, I'm gonna go bananas. Oh, by the way, through this process I also found that my air filter, of all things, was really, really overdue to be changed. Does a clogged air filter (air starvation) cause a high idle?
Mauricio
:) I was just playing with you.
Valve clearances fixed is a good start. Air filter being clogged will kill gas mileage and make it harder for the bike to idle properly - more restriction on idle means the motor is having to work harder with its given vacuum to suck fuel and air in. Under higher RPM loads, the motor will just suck in more fuel, essentially causing the mixture to become more and more rich. Eventually, if it gets bad enough, you might foul your plugs. Only if it's really, really bad, though.
To answer your question...no. A clogged air filter will only cause the bike to struggle to idle.
Where are you located Vasama? If all else fails, I have a whole mess of carb parts (thanks to Adidasguy) and I could rebuild your carbs for you and go over them. I'd only charge you shipping. :)
Kijona's reply to a recent post got me thinking about the infamous "vacuum" o-ring. I always thought that the one in my carbs was kind of small for the space it occupies. Another thing that I wonder is its function in my particular type of carbs, since there's nothing coming/going through the center of the o-ring. Oh, well, I can live without understanding that one.
Anyways, I thougt, what if my high idle was caused by an inappropriate o-ring? It would make sense, since I couldn't find any vacuum leaks using the WD-40 method. So I went to Harbor Freight, which happens to be three blocks from my house, and got the kit.
This first pic shows the old o-ring sitting in the carb:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/IMG_0647800x600.jpg)
This is the new one. About the same diameter, but clearly thicker:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/IMG_0650800x600.jpg)
Here they are, side by side. The thin one is the old one, and the thick one is the one I put there.
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/IMG_0653800x600.jpg)
I'm starting the bike tomorrow. I couldn't tonight, because I decided to paint the exhaust as well, and the paint still feels fresh. I know there's a procedure to cure it, but, still, I decided to wait until the morning. Tank is up with fresh fuel, battery is full of charge, all electrical systems are go. I'm excited and a bit anxious about tomorrow...
You bought nitrile or gas-resistant o-rings, right? You don't want those buggers melting inside your carb, believe me.
Otherwise, yes, that can cause a problem. A vacuum leak there would be very hard to get at to diagnose.
Please let us know!
Hey Vasama how'd it go?! I read the whole thread and now i'm eager to hear!
Yes, the o-rings were Nitrile, but on with more important news....;
SHE LIVES!!! SHE LIVES!!!
Cheers, everybody that helped one way or another!!
:cheers:
It might be early to celebrate, but, I started it (on the very first try, too). It idled right while on choke. It maintained appropriate idle as I slid the choke off. I rode it. Smooth idling. A bit high, but not because of internal issues, but simply a throttle screw adjustment thing. I was able to set it to just under 2K RPM's. Rode for about 1/2 hour. No change with idling. All is good. Final pictures will be taken tomorrow with good lighting. Oh, I'll also ride it a bit longer tomorrow to confirm that the carbs are fine. For now, I'm happy.
Tomorrow, pics and the conclusion to this thread.
Quote from: vasama on February 25, 2012, 10:02:47 PM
Yes, the o-rings were Nitrile, but on with more important news....;
SHE LIVES!!! SHE LIVES!!!
Cheers, everybody that helped one way or another!!
:cheers:
It might be early to celebrate, but, I started it (on the very first try, too). It idled right while on choke. It maintained appropriate idle as I slid the choke off. I rode it. Smooth idling. A bit high, but not because of internal issues, but simply a throttle screw adjustment thing. I was able to set it to just under 2K RPM's. Rode for about 1/2 hour. No change with idling. All is good. Final pictures will be taken tomorrow with good lighting. Oh, I'll also ride it a bit longer tomorrow to confirm that the carbs are fine. For now, I'm happy.
Tomorrow, pics and the conclusion to this thread.
I'm very glad to hear that it's working now dude. It's been a long, arduous journey for you but I think we can tentatively say that you are out of the woods! :) :cheers:
Now you just have to decide what you want to do to it next. ;)
So, here's my last post in this thread (unless more questions arise...)
The bike is running really nice! The idling is awesome! I'm no longer embarrassed by high idle when stopping at lights.
The specific things I did to solve this problem were:
1. De-rusted the tank (painful bb's+vinegar, but at the end, it was a radiator shop that did it for me)
2. Cleaned all fuel lines.
3. Added an in-line fuel filter.
4. Soaked the carbs (fully dismantled) in Pinesol for a couple of days.
5. Boiled the carbs. Twice.
6. Cleared water (from the boiling) from the carbs with WD40.
7. Blew compressed air through all carb holes.
8. While the engine was down (because I decided to powder coat the frame) I checked and fixed valve clearances. Mine were awfully tight, both intake and exhaust.
9. Replaced the "vacuum" o-rings at the top of the carbs for thicker ones (Nitrile, from Harbor Freight).
In the end, I suspect it was always down to those small o-rings. Too bad I didn't trouble shoot step by step, but I have a hunch that it was those little buggers that were the wrong size.
It seems like the Pinesol didn't damage the carbs. However, I'm not sure about the benefit of that step. I think that just the boiling water was more than enough for a deep cleaning.
I'm posting more pics of my process in the projects section. I'll just post this one here showing the finished bike.
One last time, thanks to all that took time to give me advise along the way.
Mauricio
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/423355_10150574083361619_679986618_9332765_611769631_n.jpg)
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/vasama0/112.jpg)
Wow, nice looking bike man! :)
awesome bike