This weekend I was checking my valve clearances, and I got to a conflicting sources of information.
One is the Kerry's Burton video (BTW excellent video, the one that gave me courage to do it, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2015554469142545363) which he says to turn the cam lobes pointing away from the shim surface, in a 180 angle degree between the point of the cam lobe and the shim surface.
The other one is the Service Manual, and this page: http://gstwin.com/adjust_valves.htm, from Marc Malagelada, which states that the cam should by set by the "R-T" mark in the pulse generator & the marks on the camshaft.
The difference is that with the first method my valves aren't in spec but in the 2nd method they are in spec, being the left exaust valve the tighter ( 0.03mm ).
Which one of the methods is the right one?
Regards,
EDIT: 3mm to 0.03mm correction
Cool, that is one thing I have wanted to check but forgot when Adfalchius' engine was open. I would trust the Suzuki manual which is the way I've always done it but I don't think running the valves a little looser will cause a problem. What was the actual difference in measurement?
-Jessie
i went by the haynes manual and don't have any problems that i know of
Quote from: piresito on January 24, 2012, 08:52:40 AM
This weekend I was checking my valve clearances, and I got to a conflicting sources of information.
One is the Kerry's Burton video (BTW excellent video, the one that gave me courage to do it, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2015554469142545363) which he says to turn the cam lobes pointing away from the shim surface, in a 180 angle degree between the point of the cam lobe and the shim surface.
The other one is the Service Manual, and this page: http://gstwin.com/adjust_valves.htm, from Marc Malagelada, which states that the cam should by set by the "R-T" mark in the pulse generator & the marks on the camshaft.
The difference is that with the first method my valves aren't in spec but in the 2nd method they are in spec, being the left exaust valve the tighter ( 3mm ).
Which one of the methods is the right one?
Regards,
My manual (Suzuki Service Manual - not Clymer, Haynes, etc.) states that the correct way is the latter one you mentioned: by aligning the R-T marks and marks on cams. Not that his way isn't also acceptable.
Otherwise, the video is grand and really helps you because it starts from the very basics and assumes you know nothing about the bike. Perfect for beginners. :)
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 24, 2012, 09:11:14 AM
Cool, that is one thing I have wanted to check but forgot when Adfalchius' engine was open. I would trust the Suzuki manual which is the way I've always done it but I don't think running the valves a little looser will cause a problem. What was the actual difference in measurement?
-Jessie
Ooops...I think I was dumb enough to write the new values over the old ones... :embarassed:
I remembered that with the Kerry method, in the exaust valves, I could only freely slide the 0.02 blade in the right one, and in the left the 0.02 wouldn't fit, maybe if forced it would.
With the pulse generator R-T mark alignament, I could slide the 0.04 blade in the right exaust valve and the 0.03 in the left one.
The values of the intake valves are greater with both methods, but I don't remember them exactly and I don't have the sketch with me right now. Later I will post it... :thumb:
Quote from: Kijona on January 24, 2012, 09:25:33 AM
My manual (Suzuki Service Manual - not Clymer, Haynes, etc.) states that the correct way is the latter one you mentioned: by aligning the R-T marks and marks on cams. Not that his way isn't also acceptable.
Otherwise, the video is grand and really helps you because it starts from the very basics and assumes you know nothing about the bike. Perfect for beginners. :)
Its easier that it looks, I was afraid because my mechanic experience is zero, but then I though, in the worst case scenario, the way from the garage to the bike shop is declined so I don't neet the engine to get it there...too bad I didn't get my hands on it earlier.
I think for begginers like me the best method is a mixture of the two. The first one teaches how to disassemble everything, and with the second one after all you don't have to remove the shims out of the bucket... :icon_mrgreen: lol just kidding... I agree. without the video I simply wouldn't have the courage to do it.
Kerry's method of setting them 180 out was the method in the manual, you can do 3 valves @ 1 setting and then turn the motor over for the other valve.
However it should hardly mattter, I have done an eyeball, turn till the valve you are looking @ has the cam lobe pointing somewhere above the head and you are good. In bikes that have valves that open faster than they close, it is important where you check it, but a GS isn't one of those bikes.
Cool.
Buddha.
When I get a chance I will edit together the parts of the top end rebuild video that deal with the valves to show the Suzuki manual method.
-Jessie
Quote from: The Buddha on January 24, 2012, 09:42:56 AM
Kerry's method of setting them 180 out was the method in the manual, you can do 3 valves @ 1 setting and then turn the motor over for the other valve.
However it should hardly mattter, I have done an eyeball, turn till the valve you are looking @ has the cam lobe pointing somewhere above the head and you are good. In bikes that have valves that open faster than they close, it is important where you check it, but a GS isn't one of those bikes.
Cool.
Buddha.
? It was the method in the manual? Can you explain it? I don't understand, as the manual I have (Haynes) says to align it by the pulse generator...
Forget the pulse generator, I dont even open that cover.
I put it in gear and sping the back wheel. You do it any way you like. Take out the spark plugs and turn the back wheel.
1 valve at a time is fine as is the 3 with the cams facing horizontal.
Cool.
Buddha.
What he said! ^^ :cheers:
It does make a difference which I discovered on my first GS500 valve check which was about 22 GS500 valve checks and 13 years ago. Do it right by using the timing marks when checking valves. Not knocking Kerry, setting the cam lobe directly away from the valve/shim was the way I did it for decades on both cars and bikes until I encountered my first GS500.
Also, intake valve clearances rarely change for the life of the engine but exhaust valves clearances get smaller and tight exhaust valves don't last as long. If you want long valve life set your exhaust valves a bit looser. My specs:
.001-.003" (.03-.08 mm) Intake
.003-.005" (.08-.13 mm) Exhaust
Here's the complete record of my valve check/shim change experiences:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/GSvalvelogs.jpg
On my 97 GS I set to Suzuki specs and one exhaust valve ran a long time on the tight side of Suzi specs and after many shim changes it was down to a minimum 2.15 mm thickness shim before 80k miles. On my current 02 GS when an exhaust valve started the same pattern around 40k miles I went to my larger setting and it looks like it will go to 100k miles still using mid size shims, got 91k miles on it now!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/gs500signalgenerators.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/manual_valve_adjust.jpg)
That is a good argument for running it looser side of the spec. Not neccesarily the R|T method of the timing marks.
Valves shed heat by radiating it into the head, so a valve that stays on the seat for longer will run cooler. As will a bike jetted a smidgen richer, but the essential thing is that you get it n the loose side of the spec. In fact yamaha on the maxim (essentially the same valve types as the GS) recomends 5-7 thou on the exhaust and 3-5 thou on the intake, not 1-3 like the GS. Of course a 8 valve motor is likely to be less clack clack clack cos there is just so much more valve train noise that will drown it out.
Cool.
Buddha.
I don't own a manual and have used Kerry's video twice. That video is a GS life saver. Before adjusting my valves the motor sounded like a paint shaker and was getting harder and harder to start. Now after increasing both intake and exhaust clearances it starts MUCH easier and the knocking is (mostly) gone. I don't know if Kerry's video is the most accurate method but it gave me the courage to wrench on the bike and I bet the motor will last longer than if I had ignored it.
Just edited together the relevant footage from Adfalchius' top end rebuild to show the method using the timing marks. My computer is slow to render video, I'll have it on youtube tomorrow.
To Jack: Do you happen to remember how much of a difference there is between the 2 measurement methods? I'm assuming Kerry's way is slightly looser.
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 24, 2012, 08:06:47 PM
Just edited together the relevant footage from Adfalchius' top end rebuild to show the method using the timing marks. My computer is slow to render video, I'll have it on youtube tomorrow.
To Jack: Do you happen to remember how much of a difference there is between the 2 measurement methods? I'm assuming Kerry's way is slightly looser.
-Jessie
I'm not Jack, but from my experience, even not having the writen data, I found that with Kerrys way was tighter in the exaust valves, but not in the intake. As I don't remember very well the measurements, but at least in one intake valve had more clearance using Kerrys method. The other one I don't remember if the measurement was the same or looser also.
The video is now online. It is edited together out of the footage from the top end rebuild so some of the commentary may not make sense. And I hope BeerGarage doesn't mind that I used one of his photos ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4vRm9xADa8
-Jessie
My bike just hit 4000 miles. I'd like to check the valve clearance and do an adjustment if needed. Could someone give me a list of the tools i need to carry this out (don't have a lot of tools as this is my first bike)? Or, it is easier to just pay someone to do it?
This will be my first time touching the engine. I'll try to follow Kerry's video and the manual.
Not doing it right away as it's too cold, but this will give me time to find the stuff i need.
Thanks.
Dre
Basic metric socket set to remove the tank and breather, 6mm allen key or socket to remove the cylinder head cover, 18mm deep socket to remove the spark plugs and a feeler gauge to check the valve clearance. If you find you have an incorrect clearance you will need a valve shim tool and a proper sized replacement shim. You will also need a new cylinder head gasket if yours is brittle (doubt it at 4,000 miles) and a small tube of RTV. It is not a hard job, do it yourself and save some money :thumb:
-Jessie
Thanks Jessie. What brand and spec feeler guage do you use? Is there a shim tool specific to the 500F, or anyone can apply?
a little research will go a long way Dre.. check out the gstwins wiki page on checking valve clearances:
Checking your GS Valves - WIKI (http://wiki.gstwins.com/index.php?n=Maintenance.CheckValves)
Feeler gauges:
Quote from: WikiRemember that you need a metric feeler gauge, preferably with the thinnest blade of 0.03mm.
and you will need a specific suzuki shim tool:
https://www.denniskirk.com/28270.sku?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse
Thanks Steezin. Forgot we had the Wiki. Answered all my questions. :thumb:
no worries mang :cheers:
that wiki is chock full of solid info!
Quote from: piresito on January 25, 2012, 04:08:58 AM
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 24, 2012, 08:06:47 PM
Just edited together the relevant footage from Adfalchius' top end rebuild to show the method using the timing marks. My computer is slow to render video, I'll have it on youtube tomorrow.
To Jack: Do you happen to remember how much of a difference there is between the 2 measurement methods? I'm assuming Kerry's way is slightly looser.
-Jessie
I'm not Jack, but from my experience, even not having the writen data, I found that with Kerrys way was tighter in the exaust valves, but not in the intake. As I don't remember very well the measurements, but at least in one intake valve had more clearance using Kerrys method. The other one I don't remember if the measurement was the same or looser also.
I agree Jessie, it was only about .001" differance, the value measured with the cam lobe full away from the valve was tighter than it was with the crank on the timing marks. When I first read piresito's post #4 above it sounded about right to me, .001"=approx .025mm, I still think in inches, old dog/new trick thing I guess. :icon_lol:
What does it mean if your bucket doesn't move? LOL they didn't say in Jessie video, my front left doesn't move. that's why I'm curious.
Quote from: The Buddha on January 24, 2012, 10:10:51 AM
Forget the pulse generator, I dont even open that cover.
I put it in gear and sping the back wheel. You do it any way you like. Take out the spark plugs and turn the back wheel.
1 valve at a time is fine as is the 3 with the cams facing horizontal.
Cool.
Buddha.
i've checked in 3 positions before: just after valve release, middle of cam stroke, and just before cam /valve engagement. there is little to no difference, on good wearing cams. if the cams are shaZam!/shot/wearing poorly, you'll see loads of difference via the three spots.
it's a really really simple process. follow kerry's video, it's one of the best.
Quote from: J_Walker on January 25, 2012, 04:50:58 PM
What does it mean if your bucket doesn't move? LOL they didn't say in Jessie video, my front left doesn't move. that's why I'm curious.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but that means a valve is stuck open (no clearance). You probably have no compression on that cylinder and may have burnt the valve if you have been riding it like that. Tombstone recently bought a new exhaust valve but didn't use it (replaced head), if you find yours is burnt you may be able to buy his :thumb:
-Jessie
Quote from: ohgood on January 25, 2012, 06:12:34 PM
Quote from: The Buddha on January 24, 2012, 10:10:51 AM
Forget the pulse generator, I dont even open that cover.
I put it in gear and sping the back wheel. You do it any way you like. Take out the spark plugs and turn the back wheel.
1 valve at a time is fine as is the 3 with the cams facing horizontal.
Cool.
Buddha.
i've checked in 3 positions before: just after valve release, middle of cam stroke, and just before cam /valve engagement. there is little to no difference, on good wearing cams. if the cams are shaZam!/shot/wearing poorly, you'll see loads of difference via the three spots.
it's a really really simple process. follow kerry's video, it's one of the best.
You could also just turn the back wheel to align the notches on the cam with the head I guess.
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 25, 2012, 06:32:46 PM
Quote from: J_Walker on January 25, 2012, 04:50:58 PM
What does it mean if your bucket doesn't move? LOL they didn't say in Jessie video, my front left doesn't move. that's why I'm curious.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but that means a valve is stuck open (no clearance). You probably have no compression on that cylinder and may have burnt the valve if you have been riding it like that. Tombstone recently bought a new exhaust valve but didn't use it (replaced head), if you find yours is burnt you may be able to buy his :thumb:
-Jessie
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! well.. looks like tomorrow I'm draining my oil, and taking my engine out.. again.. yay....
got any videos on replacing a valve? Lol
The top end can be rebuilt without draining the oil and without removing the engine from the frame. However, if you have the space and inclination, it might be more convenient!
Quote from: Paulcet on January 25, 2012, 09:30:10 PM
The top end can be rebuilt without draining the oil and without removing the engine from the frame. However, if you have the space and inclination, it might be more convenient!
I have 3 days to figure and fix this, well. not 3 but I only have a garage to park my bike in to get it fixed before it has to go back outside.. I have to drain the oil to put new oil filter/o-ring anyway. might just take the engine out anyhow. only crappy part is I'm waiting for a paint to dry so I can get my paycheck...
still have no idea how to get the valve rods out. - TAKE ALL THE ENGINE APART! - forgets to put piston back in - "fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!! - lol < true story.
The top end videos goes over the entire process. A couple of questions before you tear the engine apart: When you checked the left exhaust valve did you rotate the engine so the cam notches faced away from each other? If yes, you still may not have burnt the valve. First replace the shim and do a compression test. If the compression test with the new shim is normal there is no need to disassemble the engine.
-Jessie
Edit: That video does not cover lapping a valve which you will have to do if you replace yours (providing the valve seat isn't damaged)
And how about removing a shim without a shim tool?
Would the pre-load shock adjustment tool do it?
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h55/GDunlavey/DSCF0030.jpg)
I've heard about trimming a allen key but I can't see how it can work...anyone used it?
No that won't work but a couple of screwdrivers will:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/ValveShimTools.jpg
Nice, so this means that I insert the screwdriver there and then rotate the cranckshaft in order for the bucket+shim go up. Then the shim will pop out because this tool holds the bucket down while the shim+bucket tries to go up? I'm not going to scratch the cranckshaft with this method?
No don't rotate the camshaft while changing the shim, just make sure the cam lobe is pointed away from the shim and turn the bucket so the little notch for shim removal is pointed towards you so you can pick the shim out. After depressing the bucket/shim with one screwdriver the other with a blade about 1/4" wide is placed on the very edge of the bucket outside of the shim so the shim can be removed and then remove the first screwdriver out of the way while you change the shim. After the shim is changed just pull out the screwdriver holding the bucket down. Crankshaft should be rotated a couple turns after the shim is changed to make sure all the oil is squeezed out and the shim is fully seated before rechecking the gap.
Woooowww, very nice indeed! Thank you for your patience! My GS500 soon will be running like a "evil machine"! :icon_twisted:
I unbolted the 8 bolts on top holding down the thingy with the rod/chain lmao don't know the name atm.. and the valve bowl moves freely with out pressure ontop, so i'll go buy shims and adjust.
Quote from: J_Walker on January 26, 2012, 01:57:40 PM
I unbolted the 8 bolts on top holding down the thingy with the rod/chain lmao don't know the name atm.. and the valve bowl moves freely with out pressure ontop, so i'll go buy shims and adjust.
Thats the way he recommends here: http://gstwin.com/adjust_valves.htm (http://gstwin.com/adjust_valves.htm)
Altough thats too hardcore for me, I will stick to the screwdriver method... For now I don't want to mess with the camshaft & camshaft chain!
Maybe Monday I will get around the bike again, she rests for the weekend! lol
I'm assuming you removed the camshafts which are the 2 pieces the cam chain spin which push on the valve shims. The valve buckets should always spin when the cams are removed. What you are checking for when spinning the buckets with the cams installed is if there is ANY clearance even if your smallest feeler gauge won't fit in the gap. If the cams are oriented correctly for a valve check and the bucket does not spin at all it means there is no clearance between the cam and the shim. That means the valve is not being allowed to close which means it can be damaged (burned). The fact your buckets move with the cam removed doesn't tell you anything. Either way the shim needed to be replaced so go ahead and do that. You will have to take an educated guess on what size shim you need since you couldn't measure the clearance. What size shim was in it? Now that you removed the cams you will have to re-time the engine when you put it back together. Take your time and make sure you get that step right or you can bend/break a valve if you get it wrong. Spin the engine a couple of times by hand to make sure the timing is dead on. Then you will still have to do a compression test when you are done to see if your valve that had no clearance is working correctly. And since you removed the camshafts you should add a new cam chain tensioner gasket to your list of parts.
-Jessie
Edit: And be careful when re-installing the cam caps, they can crack if they are not tightened evenly.
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 26, 2012, 04:42:17 PM
I'm assuming you removed the camshafts which are the 2 pieces the cam chain spin which push on the valve shims. The valve buckets should always spin when the cams are removed. What you are checking for when spinning the buckets with the cams installed is if there is ANY clearance even if your smallest feeler gauge won't fit in the gap. If the cams are oriented correctly for a valve check and the bucket does not spin at all it means there is no clearance between the cam and the shim. That means the valve is not being allowed to close which means it can be damaged (burned). The fact your buckets move with the cam removed doesn't tell you anything. Either way the shim needed to be replaced so go ahead and do that. You will have to take an educated guess on what size shim you need since you couldn't measure the clearance. What size shim was in it? Now that you removed the cams you will have to re-time the engine when you put it back together. Take your time and make sure you get that step right or you can bend/break a valve if you get it wrong. Spin the engine a couple of times by hand to make sure the timing is dead on. Then you will still have to do a compression test when you are done to see if your valve that had no clearance is working correctly. And since you removed the camshafts you should add a new cam chain tensioner gasket to your list of parts.
-Jessie
Edit: And be careful when re-installing the cam caps, they can crack if they are not tightened evenly.
should I replace all the shims? or just the problem one? O0 chain tensioner gasket, check. So need a head gasket, chain tensioner gasket, should I be looking at any other ones? Also how do you get the shims out after pulling the bowls out? Lol oops.. :) I think my engine was mistimed in the first place, was watching your video's on youtube the 1/4 series, and the arrow on the sprocket, to the 18 spaces on the chain[something like that will look over when re-doing], It wasn't right.. Could this have caused a problem in the first place? Can you tell if a valve is broken/burnt with the shim bowl things are out? I pulled them out by accident trying to get the shims out, guess it doesn't work that way... :) we learn, also, there is blue stuff in my engine? lol? Factory thing? its not near anything important, that might me rubbing or anything, its just there. was curious what it was.
Did you measure the valve clearances with a feeler gauge before you disassembled the engine?? That is how you determine if shims need to be replaced. If not, you will have to re-assemble the engine and get those measurements. .03mm-.08mm is the acceptable gap but it is always better to run towards the .08mm side since the gap decreases with engine wear. If you have a gap that is less than your smallest feeler gauge you will have to make an educated guess on what size shim you need. It may take 2 or 3 tries to find the correct size which is why I prefer the valve shim tool to removing the camshafts. It is a lot easier to use the valve shim tool 3 times than to pull the cams 3 times. There is a notch cut out of the buckets where a small screwdriver or pick can be used to pop the shim out. Make sure to align that notch so you will be able to access it before pressing the valve down with a valve shim tool. There is no need to remove the buckets no matter what method you are using.
So let's say that on one of your valves a .02mm feeler gauge is the biggest that will fit in the gap. That valve clearance is below our .03mm lowest spec. So we remove the valve shim and measure it. Let's say it is a 2.70. Our goal is to get a .08mm gap. So .08mm goal minus our .02mm gap is .06mm. We want to increase our gap .06mm. 2.70mm current shim minus our desired .06mm gap increase is 2.64mm. Suzuki shims come in .05 increments so 2.65mm is the shim we would use which should give us a .07mm clearance. Once the new shims are installed and we are sure everything is in time we would rotate the engine by hand a few times and re-check our measurements. Oil in the valve shim buckets can give false readings when the new shims are first installed, rotating the engine should squeeze it out.
You can't tell much by looking at the top side of the valves under the bucket unless the stems are actually broken. A compression test is the best way of gauging how the valves are doing without removing the cylinder head. If the engine was mis-timed it can bend/break valves, look at Tombstones' posts about his engine woes. I doubt yours was mis-timed if you were able to ride it. Is the blue stuff rubbery? If so, it is probably liquid gasket (commonly called RTV) but it is hard to say for sure without seeing a picture. If it is RTV you want to get it all out of there so it doesn't clog an oil passage.
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 27, 2012, 06:55:56 AM
Did you measure the valve clearances with a feeler gauge before you disassembled the engine?? That is how you determine if shims need to be replaced. If not, you will have to re-assemble the engine and get those measurements. .03mm-.08mm is the acceptable gap but it is always better to run towards the .08mm side since the gap decreases with engine wear. If you have a gap that is less than your smallest feeler gauge you will have to make an educated guess on what size shim you need. It may take 2 or 3 tries to find the correct size which is why I prefer the valve shim tool to removing the camshafts. It is a lot easier to use the valve shim tool 3 times than to pull the cams 3 times. There is a notch cut out of the buckets where a small screwdriver or pick can be used to pop the shim out. Make sure to align that notch so you will be able to access it before pressing the valve down with a valve shim tool. There is no need to remove the buckets no matter what method you are using.
So let's say that on one of your valves a .02mm feeler gauge is the biggest that will fit in the gap. That valve clearance is below our .03mm lowest spec. So we remove the valve shim and measure it. Let's say it is a 2.70. Our goal is to get a .08mm gap. So .08mm goal minus our .02mm gap is .06mm. We want to increase our gap .06mm. 2.70mm current shim minus our desired .06mm gap increase is 2.64mm. Suzuki shims come in .05 increments so 2.65mm is the shim we would use which should give us a .07mm clearance. Once the new shims are installed and we are sure everything is in time we would rotate the engine by hand a few times and re-check our measurements. Oil in the valve shim buckets can give false readings when the new shims are first installed, rotating the engine should squeeze it out.
[cut some]
-Jessie
As far as I remember you said if the bucket doesn't move at all it has no clearance? That one didn't move. with the cams in that is. so does that mean I need a bigger shim? I'm a bit confused. :)
I did a test, the right side, switched the shim out with the left side. [problem side] and the bucket moved once more with the cam in. still to small an its a 2.70 or something like that? something 70 lol. the original one was 2.75 or something 75. so I need to go to a Suzuki shop that's no were near me. :0 lol
Curious, how does this happen? Lol like how do the shims become to big/small from the valve.
As the valves open and close they slowly wear (eat away) their seat in the head which is why the valve clearance decreases. Eventually it wears the head to the point wear there are no smaller shims available. At that point the head needs to be replaced.
-Jessie
Well the thickness of the shim does not change....shims are hard and don't really wear down much if at all. What happens is the valve wears into the heads...so the valves go deeper and deeper into the head...making the valve stem protrude more out of the top...thus making the clearance less and less over time...
When the cam is in the correct position for the valve to be fully closed (as shown in the service manual) there shuold be a clearance between the shim and the cam...
If there is no clearance, it means the valve is not fully closed and is pushing up on the bucket, which is pushing up on the shim which is in contact with the cam...this means the bucket will not rotate, because there is pressure on it. This also means there is 0 clearance, which is very bad.
In this case you need to go to a thinner shim.
Once you get a thin enough shim in there, so that the bucket will rotate, you can then insert feeler guage to actaully measure the gap.. The gap needs to be between .03mm and.08 mm. If the gap is not within this spec, you need to change to another thickness shim, until the gap is within spec.
It is conventional wisdom to always make the exhaust clearance to the larger gap, (like .06, .07, .08mm) never on the tight side. So many would use a spec of .07 to .12 mm for the exhaust.
Remember the shims only come in .05 mm increments.....
So say my exhaust measured .03mm even thought that is in spec, its to the low side...I would go to the next shim size smaller and get a gap of .08mm
Cookie
Cookie
so I would need a 2.65 shim? for my problem side, and keep the other side, as it is was fine. Finally! I know what I need! Lol! cause with the swapped its 70, and has about a .02-.03 space. Measured with a piece of note book paper, was told its about .03 in thickness. and it kind slid into it but not quite. so I'm gonna guess its a .02 clearance, so If I drop the shim to 2.65 it would give me a an even 7. Woo-hoo! Newb powers GO!
You still need a feeler gauge to know for sure but your logic seems sound :thumb:
-Jessie
Gonna buy them tomorrow! just have to find a pair!! cause I still need to check all of them, not just the problem one. Don't want no clanking! also Baltimore, how do you do the timing stuff, with the RT and LT stuff.. lol Got a video on that? I watched over your videos with the parts 1-4 and it doesn't really go over that, and well.. I took out my cams as you might know. :) and need to re-time or what ever it is, also to do this, do I need to take out my engine or can I just spin the back tire to get it in the right place?
You have to take off the round right side cover with a Suzuki emblem that is held on by three 7mm bolts. Under it is the rotor with the timing marks. Turn it clockwise with a 19mm until the R/T mark lines up with the left pickup (highlighted in red on the photo below).
-Jessie
(http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww360/jessiedoran/rt.jpg)
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 28, 2012, 09:34:30 PM
You have to take off the round right side cover with a Suzuki emblem that is held on by three 7mm bolts. Under it is the rotor with the timing marks. Turn it clockwise with a 19mm until the R/T mark lines up with the left pickup (highlighted in red on the photo below).
-Jessie
(http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww360/jessiedoran/rt.jpg)
But I haz the F model :( doesn't look like this..
:icon_lol:
Go back to the first page of this very thread and look at Jacks posts and I think you'll get it... ;) :laugh:
-Jessie
Quote from: J_Walker on January 28, 2012, 09:13:21 PM
also Baltimore, how do you do the timing stuff, with the RT and LT stuff.. lol Got a video on that? I watched over your videos with the parts 1-4 and it doesn't really go over that, and well.. I took out my cams as you might know. :) and need to re-time or what ever it is, also to do this, do I need to take out my engine or can I just spin the back tire to get it in the right place?
The videos DO go over timing. Check out part 4 again.
Quote from: Adfalchius on January 29, 2012, 09:50:42 AM
Quote from: J_Walker on January 28, 2012, 09:13:21 PM
also Baltimore, how do you do the timing stuff, with the RT and LT stuff.. lol Got a video on that? I watched over your videos with the parts 1-4 and it doesn't really go over that, and well.. I took out my cams as you might know. :) and need to re-time or what ever it is, also to do this, do I need to take out my engine or can I just spin the back tire to get it in the right place?
The videos DO go over timing. Check out part 4 again.
I know but in the video it doesn't show the engine on the bike, I can only get the timing to go to LT's line not RT's first line.. but the fun part is my bike's engine is still IN my bike.. so I don't know if that makes a difference.
Not sure what you mean it won't go to the R/T mark, you just turn the rotor with a 19mm until the marks line up like the picture to the right. Shouldn't matter whether the engine is installed in the bike. Do you have it in neutral?
-Jessie
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/gs500signalgenerators.jpg)
Yeah its in netural, it won't spin it spins about 10% back and forth.. won't go any further. don't wanna strip the threads on the bolt head.. or f$%k my engine up trying to turn it.. Problem?
Are your spark plugs removed?
-Jessie
You have to hold the cam chain up in the air so it doesn't bind.
-Jessie
sparks and chain are both in check.. Do you have to HOLD IT? or can you put a screw driver threw the chain and hold it raised like that?
I would hold it on one finger while I spin the rotor. You have to keep tension on it so it doesn't bind on the crankshaft.
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 29, 2012, 03:46:19 PM
I would hold it on one finger while I spin the rotor. You have to keep tension on it so it doesn't bind on the crankshaft.
-Jessie
Yeah I just figured that out.. I was holding it with my hand, and I guess it was to wide, and bunching up or something. Went smoothly. First line after RT. DONE. now. time to go buy shims.. Still don't know where ima get freaking shims.. Or feeler gauges.
You'll need the feeler gauge first so you know what shims to buy.
-Jessie
Jessie, You have the patience of a saint!
Quote from: Paulcet on January 29, 2012, 06:03:46 PM
Jessie, You have the patience of a saint!
:laugh: :laugh:
I was young and ignorant once too. You have to give the guy credit for taking this job on, I don't mind giving some pointers. We all started wrenching somewhere. Ver4 went from not knowing a thing about his GS to working on F-16 fighter jets. Who knows what J_Walker will be wrenching on a few years from now ;)
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 29, 2012, 06:33:14 PM
Quote from: Paulcet on January 29, 2012, 06:03:46 PM
Jessie, You have the patience of a saint!
:laugh: :laugh:
I was young and ignorant once too. You have to give the guy credit for taking this job on, I don't mind giving some pointers. We all started wrenching somewhere. Ver4 went from not knowing a thing about his GS to working on F-16 fighter jets. Who knows what J_Walker will be wrenching on a few years from now ;)
-Jessie
Nothing, we'll all be dead this year :D
The last company I bought shims from is here: http://www.newmotorcycleparts.com/motor_parts/valve_shims.html
Shipping was a bit slow but the price is good.
-Jessie
You can get them on Ebay as well!
I wish you Guys hadn't started talking about this. Now I'm wondering how I did mine Climers manual I think? Or Kerry video? DANG!
The general consensus seems to be there is minimal (if any) difference between the 2 methods so you should be fine :thumb:
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 30, 2012, 06:52:14 AM
The general consensus seems to be there is minimal (if any) difference between the 2 methods so you should be fine :thumb:
-Jessie
Why not just check em' both ways? You just have to rotate the engine and check....If ther're in spec both ways you're good to go. If it's tight one way, I'd go to smaller shim, then you'd be in spec both ways anyway!
Remember the important thing we need to check is that we don't want too tight valve clearance...
The way the Suzuki manual says to do it, you can check three valves at one engine position, and then you only have to rotate the engine once. But I'm in no rush, so I concentrate on one valeve at a time....If I have to rotate the engine all the way around again so what?
Cookie
My point to mike10 was I don't think it is worth tearing his bike apart again if everything was in spec. I trust the way the repair manual says to do it but I agree it doesn't hurt to do both methods :thumb:
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 30, 2012, 06:52:14 AM
The general consensus seems to be there is minimal (if any) difference between the 2 methods so you should be fine :thumb:
-Jessie
I agree that it won't do any harm to check it either way, no need to worry about it. But I definetly found a difference when I did my first valve check at around 600 miles on my 97 GS so many years ago and could have changed shims on a couple valves if I hadn't rechecked with the cams on the timing marks as the manual says. On the other hand, ohgood above checked them both ways and found no difference and I don't doubt it.
Seems to me it's just easier to do it the manual way, only takes a minute to pull the little signal cover and make the 19 mm hex available for turning the engine. With the crank on the mark and the cam notches inwards 3 valves can be checked and then one turn of the crank back to the mark turns the cams 180* with notches outwards and the remaing valve (left exhaust) can be checked. Besides, if you change a shim or two the crank should be turned a couple full turns before rechecking clearances.
I'll continue to advocate using the timing marks to check GS valve clearances which is unusual for me as I usually do things my own way before even looking at the manual and also to give the exhaust valves a little extra clearance or at least set them to the high side of Suzi specs for longer exhaust valve life. :icon_lol:
Yes, doing both ways showed me that the difference is not relevant (>0.005 and <0.01mm) in my bike. Maybe for sake of simplicity I will stick to Kerrys method.
Anyway, those two exaust shims made me so f***ing mad that I could only read them at 2:30 am! I guess I scratched a bit of the case around the bucket also! :mad:
Anyway, could get both shims out to measure them, but...when I was pressing them down, sometimes the shim would jump out of the bucket other times it won't. Why does this happen?
If I know how to make it jump, it would be a lot easier to pop them out than picking it with a screwdriver in the bucket notch.
One thing that came to mind, was measure them without removing them from the bucket. With a vernier calliper, you can sit the calliper on the shim, and then extend the bottom ruller until it touched to botton of the notch in the bucket. My calliper is too big to do this in the exaust valves, but I did it on the intake valves and it gave me exactly 2.75mm, which is a potential value. The problem is that I was too tired to get the shim out of there to confirm that value.
Has anyone tried that?
EDIT: For those guessing which method is "better", if in any of them if the clearance is tight, it would be tight in both of them, so there is no point "fussing" (is this a English word?!) around that. As Budda said, it would make a lot of difference in a bike that the valves lift faster than they go down, or vice versa. In a GS, the clearance shouldn't change that much.
I've found a tweezers to be handy to lift the shim out of the bucket at the notch after the bucket is depressed. The sharper the ends are on the tweezers the easier it is to get a hold of the shim and using the tweezers you can keep a grip on the shim to lift it out. Just prying it out with a screwdriver usually results in the shim sliding down on the other side where it's sometimes hard to get a hold of to remove.
Measuring the shim thickness with the shim in place with the vernier caliper like you suggest would only be accurate if the notch was exactly the same depth as the c'bore for the shim. Think I have a few buckets in the garage that I'll take a look at later.
It took me 1 hour to realize that tweezers would be great as the shim "slided to the other side"... :technical: Yesterday I ended up using the feeler gauge "casing" as tweezers, to pick the shim stuck in the back of the bucket...
But I didn't think of them to lift the shim out of the bucket, thank you! Will try the in a while, as soon as I buy the shims. My girlfriend should have one in her things... lol :icon_twisted:
Wouln't be nice to measure the shims without taking them out?! Noobs dream!! :angel: hehe
Thanks!
My wife is still looking for the missing tweezers that are hidden away in my tool box. :icon_lol:
Has anybody used the zip tie method to hold the shim buckets down to get the shims out. On the GSresource site, some Guys go through the spark plug hole, crank the engine around till the Valve is open. then stick a folded in half, zip tie under the valve head. that holds the valve open and the bucket down, when you crank engine around more till the lobe is out of the way, then pull the shim out. I'm not sure this can be done on a 500. But they love it on the 850's and others. The Valve tool can be a TOOL sometimes.
Haven't tried it but I'd like to play devil's advocate, what happens if the zip tie breaks off in the cylinder??
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 31, 2012, 04:29:03 AM
Haven't tried it but I'd like to play devil's advocate, what happens if the zip tie breaks off in the cylinder??
-Jessie
You could probably get in there with a long tweezer, or vacuum cleaner or something.....
But I would be afraid of knocking some carbon off and getting it stuck under the valve or something.
Athough this is a "creative" idea, I still think it's better to blow $12 on the motion pro valve tool!
Trick we use to "unstick" a stuck valve on airplane engine....Move engine until piston is "down", then feed it a length of rope, thru spark pluc hole....then turn engine so piston comes up, presses on rope, which pressed on valve and valve "pops" closed again! Also way to prevent valve from falling into engine when rockers and valve springs are taken off..
Cookie
I've done it. I didn't like the uneven stress on the valve stem, so I used two zip ties, I was surprised at how much the plastic deformed, so Jessie's concern is legitimate.
Now I use gsJack's method.
Quote from: gsJack on January 30, 2012, 11:26:35 AM
My wife is still looking for the missing tweezers that are hidden away in my tool box. :icon_lol:
lol!
Gggrrrr...she gave me lowest quality tweezers in the world, it was too thick to fit under the shim. Anyway, it took me under 5 minutes in to switch the left shim, and 30 seconds in the right. The two screwdriver method is perfect! Next time I will buy a second long shaft, 6mm tip screwdriver do it, so I have two similar screwdrivers. I just used a smaller one that I had . It was so easy that I will never buy the shim tool.
I depressed the shim/bucket with the help of both screwdrivers, alternating between them, depressing more and more in order to fit the 6mm screw driver tip vertical in the edge of the bucket. As I fit it, the trick was to press down the shim in the opossite side of where the vertical scredriver blade was. If it was in the left edge of the bucket, I would press it a bit on the right side of the shim. That way the shim just pop out, I could do it everytime I want...tweezers in, shim out, new shim in. Strange that after turning the engine 2 times the clearance didn't get to where I expect, one side got 6mm instead of 8mm... :-s Maybe a bit of oil still under that?!
Head cover in, reassembled carbs and airbox (there was a carb job too) time to fire it!!
Then, oops...it my work better with tank petckcock in the "On" position...charge the battery, Prime for 5 minutes and a smoke later, still no go! :mad:
Pulled the tube out of the tank to check if fuel was going down, and as soon as I touch the Start button a beautiful (not so much, but at that time it felt like it) idle came!!! Brrrrummm!!!
My garage got full of exhaust some! Like a cloud! Strange..why did this happen? Why it only worked when I removed the Gas tube from the tank petcock? And the smoke?
Anyway, so far so good! :thumb:
Thanks guys!
To do:
Check Float Height;
Play with air-mixture screws;
Sync carbs;
Rear wheel alignament, but thats another thread... :icon_lol:
I guess the zip tie is not suppose to break off in the cylinder. Good question. If it was a tiny piece maybe crank over the engine and blow it out the spark plug hole. I don't know.
Just did a search on GSresources site. The Zip Tie valve tool, will break off sometimes. A small hose hooked to a shop vac. has worked to get it out. But another guy had to pull the head off the bike. I will be using my TOOL. But if you are caught in a pinch with no tool, use a good fresh Zip Tie.