tl;dr - What jets for yoshi TRS slip on + lunchbox on a 2009 GS500F? How to tell visually I need piston rings, or just do it with open engine during valve job?
For a number of reasons that point to at least one bad valve, I'm pulling my cylinder head this week. I've located and befriended an experienced machinist to help me evaluate what I find inside, with cutting valve seats and other questions I'll prob have with reassembly.
This engine burns a lot of oil, about a quart every 1000 miles, so I'm also going to be ready to replace the piston rings. Some people have asked if I'm sure they're leaking, and no I'm not. I'm not sure if this is something I can see visually once I get in there, or something that should be replaced just because I have it open. I would welcome opinions here.
My GS came with a Yoshi TRS and K&N drop in. It was jetted by the previous owner with what I now believe is a Dyno-Jet stage one kit. My spark plugs have always looked bright white during inspections. I know that a lean engine runs hotter, but I'm not sure how hot, or what kind of damage that heat does.
At this time I'm financially prepared, if necessary, to buy all four valves, oil seals, guides, springs, two sets of rings, gaskets, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but new piston rings mean a new break in cycle for the engine? Wouldn't I want a "new" engine to break in at a reasonable operating temperature? If rejetting is the key, I can replace the DJ needles with stock and be happy to accept Mr. Buddah's or others recommendation for jets. While spending gobs of money I'd also pull the airbox and install a lunchbox instead.
When I find interesting stuff I'll post some pictures and ask more questions here. Thanks everyone!
Mine went through a quart in 300 miles, I didn't bother rebuilding it, it ran till the last day I had it, and about a month after I sold it I saw it on the road still running. 48 k and still kicking in 2005.
Cool.
Buddha.
Like I said I've going to have it open anyway soon, it needs a valve job. The oil starvation I wasn't paying attention to caused an overheat and softened valve B and its been crashing hard.
Buddah, you're the jet master. I'll buy the stock needles, wanna sell me the rest?
My observation is that the first failure from oil starvation is the big end rod bearings. I've torn apart 2 engines that starved, with bad bearings and no sign of damage to the head. Getting to them is a huge pain in the ass.
If you have DJ's its sorta better to work it from that, I will soon have a working bike wiht DJ parts. I'll tell you what it would take.
Cool.
Buddha.
I remember you mentioning that, burning1. I've looked for any signs of that kind of trouble and talked to a lot of people and can't find any evidence of a problem like that. The cylinder and head are coming off for sure. Would you say its worth a look?
I really don't want to unless you insist. Even the transmission problem I had amounted to a mere bent shift shaft.
Getting to the bottom end means splitting the cases. If you don't have reason to suspect a bad rod bearing, I'd advise the following 2 precautions:
1. UOA on the oil in the crank case. If you have a spun bearing, it'll show up as high levels of copper. $30 is a bargain compared to the wasted effort of a rebuild on a bad engine.
2. With the cylinder off, pull on each rod looking for any signs of play. I can definitely feel an out-of-spec pin in a piston, and I suspect you could feel an out-of-spec bearing on the rod.
Okay, I will check that, burning1.
Buddah, I'm willing to throw a little money at my carbs because I just want it done and working. I really don't want a rejet holding up this project. I can always keep the DJ needles and experiment later. What's a good setup for my Yoshi TRS and lunchbox (my likely setup) vs TRS and K&N drop in (my current setup) please? I'll personally add them to the wiki.
With original needles you need 20/147.5/3 turns/1 washer with K&N lunchbox and pipe. And maybe 65 mids.
With Drop in K&N and pipe - you need 135 mains - rest as above. And no need for mids.
With DJ needles and K&N lunchbox and pipe I have had mine running quite well in summer with a 137.5 main, and clip in 2 from top - and that was a 96 bike. However I am no longer in possession of that or any other GS runner and am not sure how it would be adjusted etc etc for the 01+ and even still fiddling with jetting wasn't my main goal on it. I was doing a front end swap. I had it briefly and felt it could be a good starting point ... past that no clue.
Cool.
Buddha.
Thank you!
Where does the 1 washer go? What's a 'washer'? Does it have a thickness, sold by a certain source?
When I do my piston rings, am I going to need one of those racheting compressor sleeves? Like this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-19500-Ring-Compressor/dp/B0002STSFS/ref=pd_bxgy_auto_img_c
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bNOLB4MAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I didn't have to use one on mine. The space is kind of small for one anyways. I was able to *carefully* sit the cylinder atop one piston, and then push the rings in with a screwdriver, one by one. It worked fine.
Steel: need pictures
I havent started yet. I'm in the final planning stages, making sure I have everything Im going to need to Im not begging rides from everyone I know. There will be pictures.
I'm going to rebuilding the spare engines with freshly honed jugs and new piston rings.
One of the manuals says you can push the rings in with your hands. It also says to have someone else there to lower the jugs down as you get the pistons in the cylinders. I've never done that and I wondered what was involved so I actually opened a book and read something!
Now can you adjust valves on just a top end on the bench? Seem you could since the cam can be turned by hand and timing doesn't make any difference since the head is not on the engine so it can't bang the pistons.
I bet you could, adidasguy! Thats a great idea, I could visit my shim dealer and get hooked up in one trip.
Right now I'm wondering what to do with the PAIR or 'second air' system if I put a lunch box on during my rejet. Rip it out totally or give it it's own filter (rag or something) like the breather cover?
I'm going to see the machinist in a day or two, he can tell me if that's possible and I'll pass that along.
Quote from: Steel on February 02, 2012, 10:55:44 AM
When I do my piston rings, am I going to need one of those racheting compressor sleeves? Like this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-19500-Ring-Compressor/dp/B0002STSFS/ref=pd_bxgy_auto_img_c
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bNOLB4MAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The bottom of the jugs are tapered so that tool is unecessary.
-Jessie
Yeah, ring compressor is not necessary. Might make it easier though. Pair: Just block the ports.
What kind of solvent would y'all recommend to clean the bits, aluminum included, before seeing the machinist?
Regular old brake and parts cleaner works fine. Coat the cylinders with something (penetrating oil works) to prevent surface rust after cleaning.
-Jessie
There's enough lead in to the cylinders that you don't need any tools to get the pistons in. Just carefully lower the cylinder block onto the crankcase, making sure the pistons are lined up.
The head will not separate from the cylinder. Bottom gasket came free, this must have been pretty funny to watch.... i tried to lift both at the same time and it took me a second to realize what was wrong. So i had to fish out the camchain, and stuff some piston rings back in the cylinder, from the bottom. Now, no matter how many time I whack it with my rubber mallet, the cylinder head will not separate from the cylinder.
I'm going to bed.
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/wstifel/1325173331971.jpg)
Also it probably would have made sense to clean the engine of road grit before pulling it apart like this. Much to my displeasure, when I was fiddling with the rings there i saw some gritty oil sitting around the mating surfaces, no doubt kicked up by my hand. I suppose those tiny rocks and pieces of rubber will be caught in the oil filter and wont destroy my engine. Right? Please say yes.
Did you remove the one You win! that comes up from the bottom?
-Jessie
Edit: "You win" means _bolt
Quote from: Steel on February 04, 2012, 04:04:20 AM
Also it probably would have made sense to clean the engine of road grit before pulling it apart like this. Much to my displeasure, when I was fiddling with the rings there i saw some gritty oil sitting around the mating surfaces, no doubt kicked up by my hand. I suppose those tiny rocks and pieces of rubber will be caught in the oil filter and wont destroy my engine. Right? Please say yes.
Before you go any further, put some oil in a squirt bottle, open up your oil pan b.olt, and squirt the bottom end with the oil to flush out everything. Then put towels in any hole/passage where more contaminants could get into.
Jesse, the one litttle You win! in the front, yes. I have three hours before my friend gets here to take me to the machinist. I have to separate these pieces.
edit: what the hell is wrong with this forum? haha
Okay, I got it. A couple of tough whacks this morning and it came lose. Then after crying about the clutch cable and other wires in the way i finally got it out. I can turn off the alarm. Pictures soon.
Quick question, if I install a K&N lunchbox, what do I do with the 2nd Air System? It will no longer be fed by the stock airbox, but will still be sucking air trying to put it into the exhaust. Take it all off and plug the holes or give it its own little filter (maybe just a rag and a zip tie)?
Also will this decision effect my jetting?
Quote from: Steel on February 04, 2012, 12:22:03 PM
Okay, I got it. A couple of tough whacks this morning and it came lose. Then after crying about the clutch cable and other wires in the way i finally got it out. I can turn off the alarm. Pictures soon.
HAHAHah Same situation at this moment too !! Tough whacks on the top ?! or the sides ?
I get oil sipping from the bottom of the cylinder when trying to pull the cylinder head out ....
Flank, sounds like you need to make sure you put new gaskets on during assembly and check for warpage beforehand.
This week I'm sitting at home twiddling my thumbs while I patiently wait for parts to arrive from Michigan. I've got an open engine, carbs refitted and ready to rock, and I'm thinking about flushing the bottom end before putting new oil in. My machinist told me to use aerosol brake parts cleaner liberally, like a hose, to wash out any pebbles that may have fallen into the piston holes during disassembly (I happen to know one or two did). It was his opinion that one or two wouldn't necessarily hurt but if I felt compelled to do something I can do this.
I was under the impression that inorder to install a DJ kit you have to drill some things. By doing this I dont think you can go back to stock so easily and also their numbering system is different from mikuni. You might want to just get a differerant stage DJ kit. I think a stage 3 will work for you but dont quote me on it.
Stage 1 is intended for motorcycles with a stock engine using the stock airbox, air filter and stock pipe. Stage 1 kits are fully adjustable to allow the use of a well designed aftermarket pipes and stock replacement air filters like K&N. Stage 1 kits are designed to improve throttle response and drivability and in most cases power increases of approximately 5% throughout the entire power range can be achieved.
Stage 3 is intended for motorcycles with stock or mildly tuned engines using a well designed aftermarket pipe and individual air filters. In most cases power increases of 10-15% can be achieved.
This way you can just replace the jets and needles for what ever you need them to be with your set up. Just a thought, I might be wrong.
Quote from: SS Adrenaline on February 13, 2012, 06:30:03 AM
"...dont quote me on it." "...I might be wrong."
Not a confidence inspiring speech there, boss.
I took Buddah's advice and looked into keeping the DJ needles, mostly because stock needles are on national backorder. To do this I called Dyno Jet. They were very helpful in directing me to the actual engineer who designed their current system; an independent consultant in another state. I gave him my specs and he told me with great confidence that I can and should use the stage one kit I already have if I switch the mains to 132 (a purchase option with the kit I have, but I can use anyone's part). He said a lot more about 10% ethanol and other modern gasolines, that they all burn so cleanly that spark plugs with almost always look white now unless you have a major problem with oil. He also said its stupid to call our size 60 choke jet a 'mid main'; that that's a made up term and is silly. He went on to say that an engine like ours running lean will not heat up to the point of damaging the engine unless it is so far out of spec that the engine will barely run. Lastly, that my 17,000 miles was "a lot" for this engine. Id like to try to get more than that out of this build.
Parts shipped from Arizona, Michigan, Missouri, Ohio and Alberta today. If I'm extremely lucky I'll be reassembling on Saturday. I need another GS cause this waiting is kicking my ass.