My name is Foxtrot Tango, and I am not here.
This is going to be a long-ish post and it may not make much sense, but bear with me. Any and all criticism is welcomed. If you have acute AD/HD, scroll to the bottom and my question is in bold.
The idea first came to me, like all proper inspiration, after a long day of toiling over calculus problems in college. Idly browsing Wikipedia, I came upon the picture of a Honda 919. It was unlike anything I'd ever seen.
Motorcycles, to me, fell into two categories: candy-colored plastic spiky things ridden by shirtless, helmetless future splattered goo, and chromed-out unmuffled farting rumbling things ridden by fat hairless apes, complete with ape hangers. The motorcycle culture of South Florida is lacking in substance and style.
But the 919 was something else. The picture is still there, thankfully. No Speed Racer fairings. No garish GSXR9000RR TURBO VTEC bodywork. Tasteful accents of chromed metal with a black frame. Round headlight not squinting into the distance like the apex of bad Japanese design. No ape hangers. No skulls or Iron Crosses. Just...a motorcycle. An ordinary, manly, attractive machine. It was at that point I realized I liked motorcycles. I read on. What's this -- a "standard"? Performance AND comfort? What sort of performance -- oh my... I did the math. Power-to-weight pales in comparison to the double integrals I was used to, and the results far more soul-stirring. So this thing was beautiful AND fast? How can I get on one? This is better than a Mustang....
Life intervened, knocking me back to reality: college student with no money of his own. Not independent from parents. And here I encountered the problem. Everybody knows someone who's passed away while riding a motorcycle. Sometimes it's closer than comfortable. For Mom, it was a cousin. Mom is not a trophy wife. She is not a desperate housewife. She's a Queen Victoria, a Margaret Thatcher, an iron lady. Her word is law. Period. So even now, the law is: No motorcycles. They're death and dangerous. Father is a doctor. Sees the aforementioned splattered goo arrive in the ER. Says he once saw one guy who survived the crash, then died later of an embolism. Motorcycles are death and dangerous, part two. This is the mindset I was raised in; what they still believe. But the two-wheeled heresy has taken me in. I want to ride.
I fell in love with various motorcycles. First the 919, then the sultry SV650, which looked even better. This was the gateway drug to my current dream, a Buell XB12Ss or XB12R. Ugly -- especially the Ss -- but the triumph of function over form. An engineer's wet dream. But I also read what it took to get that far. You need safety gear. Leather, leather, leather, and a bright helmet for your nugget. You also need education. Rider training. Dirt bikes were banned (see last paragraph) so the only time I've been on two wheels was a bicycle. And I'm clumsy. And finally, you can't just start on that 1203cc corner-carving machine. You'll end up as the aforementioned red goo. So enter the starter bikes.
The GS500 was only natural to fall for, especially in naked form. To me it looks better than any Ninja 250 or 500. Just enough power to get the job done without getting into too much trouble fast. Better than a lawnmower-engined 250 for my 250 lbs of weight. Capable of highway speeds no sweat. And cheap. I want one. As soon as possible.
Life's changed. I graduated and am now employed in glorious Southern California. Mecca of motorcycle riding. Here, people aren't suicidal. Leather jackets (!!!) and helmets are standard. Mom and dad are far away enough to not know, and they will not know. And I'm making money. This year, I should be able to afford one -- I never liked the idea of digging into debt for anything I didn't need. I've begun buying gear -- got an Alpinestars jacket. I've found an MSF course in the area. I've analyzed my driving habits and seen where I can improve, where I can be safer -- to translate that for when I'm on two wheels. I've even been losing weight to fit better in leather pants. (At 240 and dropping. Lost two pant sizes so far.) I've prepared for riding for maybe a year and a half now, reading, researching, and now buying. But there's one thing I can't prepare for.
Fear.
Cars are suicidal. Crumple zones are where the machine sacrifices its own life to absorb energy to save you. Airbags and seat belts keep the fleshy cargo intact in case that fails. Well, most of the time, anyway. You can't out-engineer stupidity. Crash at 100+ MPH and you will end up as less-splattered red goo. Text while driving and at best, you rear-end someone and your insurance goes up. At worst, you go off the side of a cliff and Newton embraces you at 32 feet per second squared. But as a whole, nobody denies that filthy cagers like me generally walk away from accidents.
Motorcycles are another story. First, cagers look THROUGH you to see if any other cars are coming at them. Most dim-bulb drivers persist in this state forever. And they vote, too. Think about that for a few moments. Anyway, you're invisible. Period. Bright colors can help -- or they'll just make people even more erratic. I've heard some urban California riders go in stealth mode and wear dark colors to lane-split. I've read the contact patch between the tires and the pavement is about the size of a postage stamp. Loss of grip is easy if the road surface changes. I've read about lowsides and highsides. Or how you can lose control if you hit a pothole or something and you twitch, and open the throttle....
But the unfortunate fact is, even if you are doing nothing wrong and wearing all your gear, you can be killed for reasons entirely beyond your control, and this is more likely than if you're in a car. And this is what scares me. One texting sixteen-year-old who rear-ends you as you stop for traffic on a highway, some sand or grease on a sweeping high-speed corner, or what a very intelligent and accident-free driver (me) did this morning -- accidentally violate someone else's right of way and pull out for a right-hand turn instead of stopping and letting the car by-- in any of these situations, you can be toast.
How do you deal with the fear? I love motorcycles, I love the GS500, and I want one. But I'm still afraid of it.
Fear on a motorcycle is paramount to staying alive!! You DO NOT want to lose this because if you do you WILL DIE. I have been riding for more than 30 years and am still afraid of being on the road and this it probably why I am still alive today.
I have come off bikes more times than I care to remember and the most I have suffered is burn marks and a few minor broken bones BUT if I had no fear I would probably have been going faster or whatnot and may be dead now.
Fear of other people on the road is also paramount here as this keeps you looking out for the next driver trying to kill you so you are always alert.
Get on the bike and enjoy the ride and think about that and not what COULD happen.
NO FEAR = PROBABLE DEATH
I LOVE FEAR BECAUSE IT KEEPS ME ALIVE.
Sorry for the rant
Oh yeah this is my opinion only and may not be other riders.
Ah, you're at the "squid riding" age. That where you feel invincible and want to ride as fast as you can and road rage is an unknown phenomenon. I was there.
In LA/Hollywood. 85 year old Asian driver who was to old to drive and could barely see over the steering wheel started to cone into my lane (I was right most lane, he was 1 lane in). I honked. He went back. As I tried to pull ahead, he came again and kept coming. Clipped my tail of the CB650 and down I went. I lived (obviously). I was very lucky. No helmet. Shorts. Light jacket. if I wasn''t a gymnast and knew how to roll, I probably would have been dead.
Lesson learned? 30 years later and getting back into bikes (after other half died suddenly and didn't want me to have a bike) I realize that I should have slowed down because the cager was clueless. OR I should have really gunned it. Anyway, I now know how lucky I was to have survived. The bike was under his front bumper. He was so clueless he tried to drive on with a bike under his car. There was an off duty cop behind me.
So, now I ride like an old man. That is, I ride cautiously. I ride the speed limit (or what traffic does because going slower than traffic doers cause a hazard). I remember once dropping my Yamaha 250 because of oil on the road and a curved trail of spilled gas when in LA.
Now I watch the road. I believe that no one will see me. I can never allow any road rage or ant feeling of "It's my lane" cause me to get into danger. If something happens - or there is a rude cager, I force myself to "smile and nod". If they want to force their way in, OK. They will eventually hit someone - just not me.
It can be hard to control the emotions. if they want to cut in - then I let them. maybe they get there 5 seconds sooner. OK. That's their way. I want to live. I do not want my bike damaged.
I have ridden on Vashon Island. Really fun and beautiful. It is an island, so if you get lost you really can't get lost. that's one thing that makes it fun. However, with our weather, there can be unknown things in the road - like leaves - wet leaves - quite similar to ice or KY on the road. So I ride SLOW when I come to the turns. I can't see whats around the corner so I go SLOW - like an old geezer. But Hey - I'm riding and I want to enjoy the ride and I don't care if you think I am going slow or being too cautious.
So....
1. I am on a bike and no one can see me
2. Cagers can't see me and are known for road rage or just being pushy in their driving
3. I will be submissive. If they want intpo my lane - OK. You can have it. \
4. The way cagers drive, I know they will have an accident or get a ticket. They will NOT have an accident with me.
5. I will stay clear of these squidly cagers.
6. I will NOT i.e. NEVER drive like a squid. I can watch True TV Worlds Dumbest and see what will happen if I drive like a squid.
I want to live to ride another day so I will be a meek, cautious biker and enjoy life and my bike.
Maybe I'm old enough to appreciate life and a safe way to ride my GS500's. Many, maybe MOST riders never have a serious accident. If you stay calm and do not let them "get to you" and "control your rage", you will be fine.
Generally I am a calm rider. My accidents are:
1. Falling over on ice at ISU in the middle of winder on my first bike, a Kawasaki 125
2. Hitting the back of a Corvette due to not paying attention and wearing "halter boots" with the square toe that did not fit well between the engine and the brake pedal so I couldn't hit the rear brake and looking back, my ignorance that the front brake is the important one, not the rear. Chalk that up to ignorance and not paying attention. Because if that, I had to repair the car and could not buy a new oscilloscope with my tax refund.
3. Dropping the bile going around a corner where a car spilled gas (during the gas shortage time when cars would top off the tank and forget the gas cap).
4. Then the Hollywood freeway and the ancient Asian driver.
So now, only one incident. A month after getting Suzi I was bumped in a parking lot at the gym. Nothing serious. But it reminded me that they can't see me.
So, how do I deal with it? I am cautious and always remember that I am invisible and I want to live another day.
I I ever feel uncomfortable - I DO NOT ride. If too wet, too cold or the road is unfamiliar and I do not feel good about it, I choose not to ride. Never ride above your comfort level.
Riding above your comfort level is when you will get into trouble.
Riding when you feel invincible will get you into trouble.
Being a new rider, ive come to realise that you dont so much need to 'fear' being on the road but you do need to respect the dangers of being on the road. You need to get your confidence up, i did this by riding as much as i can and by riding in groups so i could watch and learn from more experienced riders.
Sent from my LG-P920 using Tapatalk
I've had a crash 3 out of the 4 years I have been riding. Maybe stay away from this sport. After it kills me, your are next!!!!
In all seriousness, my crashes were all noob mistakes. I made them all before I had even turned 21, and survived all of them because I had good gear. If you are smart you can probably do better than me. Just buy good gear. Seriously.
Every rider should have fear. When you fear something it means you have an element of respect there as well. You should have little bit of fear when crossing the road. No one wants to get run over so they do the obvious and look before they cross. It is not the act of riding my motorcycle that scares me but that of getting hurt in an accident. So I therefore ride and to the best of my ability in a way as to try and not too.
I've only been riding just on a year after being caged all my life. I've got a young family so I'm always thinking of them as i ride in the back if my mind. riding is all about risk management. Go through the what ifs before you twist that wrist. Sometimes you don't have time to go through that. That's when you work on an automated response, for me I shoulder check, indicate, mirror, shoulder check then move over. I've tought myself to only move over if the road is clear the whole time. Same with my riding position, I ride where I can be seen but always assuming no one can see me so I leave space if something goes wrong. Thirdly I wear all my gear all the time, if I can't be bothered wearing it il take my car. Finally and probably the most important I don't ride like I'm Casey stoner, Valentino Rossi, and mick doohan combined. Doing that will get me killed so I ride where I'm comfortable and 99% of the time it's within the law.
I'll definitely read your whole post, but I'm at work right now and don't have the time.
My simple answer to that question is that you're more vulnerable on a motorcycle in a crash, but as the same time you're more violent/destructive when you're in a car, and that's just not something I'm ok with. You can be an alphamale about it and say 'screw anyone that comes in my way, I'm buying the biggest car I can find', but it's a fine line between protecting yourself, and being an ass that doesnt' care about anyone around them. I'd rather just spend my energy to be as good as I can be at getting through traffic and avoiding dangerous drivers, and at least have a clear consciense knowing that when I see a motorcycle flattened by an SUV, that I wouldn't have been the one responsible for the vehicular homicide if I was involved.
Wow. Well written post OP. Nicely done.
Great question too; How to deal with the fear.
I haven't been riding that long myself. And, truth be known, i've had one "off" in my few years of riding. Car in front of me slammed on his brakes to avoid the car that pulled out in front of him. I grabbed a handful of brake myself, and managed to avoid the car. I didn't, however manage to avoid the fact that my rear tire had lifted ever so slightly, and came down crooked. WHOOP! right off the bike i went. Casualties of the ordeal? One pair of Icon gloves as i ripped the palms bracing for impact on the concrete. Bumped my head (was wearing a helmet though!) and the bike landed on my ankle.....but i was wearing riding boots with ankle protection. So, i walked away clean. The bike had some scuffs on the bar ends, but was relatively fine. I rode it home actually.
(( side note on this. The car behind ME, honked at me as he went around me and the bike on the ground. Apparently, having to stop for 30 seconds while the event occured had inconvenieced him in some manner. Seriously. Honked. Then went around me.
Hope is not lost however, as the guy behind HIM {so 2 cars behind me and the accident} not only stopped, but pulled perpendicular in the street to prevent traffic from going around, got out of his truck and ran over to me. I had already gotten the bike back up, and was trying to start it. HE was quite worried, asked if i was ok, did i need to borrow a cell phone, offered to get the bike in the back of his truck and take me where i needed to be, and pretty much wanted to make 100% sure i was ok. I told him i was, pulled the bike to the side of the road to give it...and myself....a once over, and let him pass. As he passed i noticed a "start seeing motorcycles" sticker on his bumper. Turns out, fellow bikers are everywhere. Even in cages. )))
I realized, at that moment, that everyone goes down eventually. Everyone. You will. I promise.
Even if you have everything figured out, for yourself and riding..... the cars around you....don't. They don't see you, don't care about you, and most importantly they are bigger than you.
You never realize HOW big some of these SUVs are until they come screaming by you at twice the speed limit on a road. Seriously. Cars are big.
But, despite the fear, you'll enjoy it. You'll crave it. You'll dwell on it. Then you'll learn to manage it.
You'll learn to watch other people IN the cars, not the cars themselves. You'll see cues from other drivers you never would have seen before. You'll learn to make split second decisions and learn to deal with the fact that you, my fired, are in hostile territory. Its a scary place. Especially after you go down the first time. And my off was pretty tame. In that split second though when your lying on the road you realize how incredibly small you actually are, and how awesome it is that you wore a helmet today.
Don't worry though. BECAUSE ITS WORTH IT. You ask; how do you manage the fear? Well, for me, its with good gear and an eagle eye to my surroundings. I know i didn't cheap on gear, i also know it works. I trust it.
But its a "last resort" kind of thing. Before my gear, i trust my instincts. 9/10 times it is right, and just so long as i dont spend the extra second questioning that sudden voice in my head that says "i dont think she is paying attention, hang back and get ready to brake" i will be ok. And so will you.
As with most stuff, reading and knowlege is power. Read all you can on the subject of RIDING a motorcycle. You'll have plenty of time to read the mechanics of bikes, spend your time reading about how to properly RIDE. Relish not the mechanics, but the ACT of riding. Learn to be the best rider you can be, and the fear will manage itself.
On that note, if you ever find yourself NOT afraid, quit riding. All it means is that your end is coming.
Quote from: ninjeff on February 16, 2012, 07:00:38 AM
I haven't been riding that long myself. And, truth be known, i've had one "off" in my few years of riding. Car in front of me slammed on his brakes to avoid the car that pulled out in front of him. I grabbed a handful of brake myself, and managed to avoid the car. I didn't, however manage to avoid the fact that my rear tire had lifted ever so slightly, and came down crooked. WHOOP! right off the bike i went.
I used to do stoppies on my bmx bike when I was a kid... It was a lot cooler back then. I also had to slam on the breaks to avoid a car a few months ago and when the rear tire came off the ground I thought I was done for. Luckily someone must love me because I managed to get both wheels on the ground without laying it over.
(http://stuntbikes.us/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/stoppie1.jpg)
I'm still afraid for the next time I have to grab a fistful of front brakes.
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Quote from: Flux Maven on February 16, 2012, 07:57:04 AM
Quote from: ninjeff on February 16, 2012, 07:00:38 AM
I haven't been riding that long myself. And, truth be known, i've had one "off" in my few years of riding. Car in front of me slammed on his brakes to avoid the car that pulled out in front of him. I grabbed a handful of brake myself, and managed to avoid the car. I didn't, however manage to avoid the fact that my rear tire had lifted ever so slightly, and came down crooked. WHOOP! right off the bike i went.
I used to do stoppies on my bmx bike when I was a kid... It was a lot cooler back then. I also had to slam on the breaks to avoid a car a few months ago and when the rear tire came off the ground I thought I was done for. Luckily someone must love me because I managed to get both wheels on the ground without laying it over.
(http://stuntbikes.us/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/stoppie1.jpg)
I'm still afraid for the next time I have to grab a fistful of front brakes.
It took me by surprise because i had never done one before. I probably could have managed it but i was so worried about avoiding the car i didn't even realize it was happening (the stoppie) until i was coming down sideways.
In retrospect my issue was two fold.
1. I was coming home from work just cruising along. We had all green lights and, admitting it, i was not 100% ready for an emergency. Just chugging a long at 45 mph with one hand on the bars and the other on my leg. 2 second rule was in effect for the car in front, but.....
2. When the emergency happened i had to take a split second for my brain to get in to oh$%^& mode. Then, i shifted far too much of my weight forward while doing the emergency stop. I should have been focused not thinking about what was for dinner.
I get asked this alot from folks at my church. These guys are my family since I don't have any and I know they pray for me while on my bike and to be quite honest I believe it works. Every morning before the first ride I say a small prayer. Some will say this is corny but I don't believe it at all. Lets give you one small example the other day I was getting ready to leave my subdivision was waiting at the red light I was a little impatient. A lot of people will say this the dumb thing to do but I do it anyhow after a vehicle is behind me I put it in neutral. Why? Because that makes me a half a second slower off the line and in Florida everyone runs the light right when it turns. So, I put the bike into gear and Flick just dies (no lurch like you left the clutch out just dead). WTF you little turd I just rebuilt your top end why are you dying?!?!? I hit the starter he fires right up just as I'm pulling out a car flies through at probably around 100MPH (speed limit is 45) only time I've been thankful for my bike dying otherwise I wouldn't be writing this right now.
Now with that said which most you've probably stopped reading by now. I do have a certain amount of fear as others have said it makes you respect the bike and the road. I've had two incidents on the road one bone headed one bad luck. The bone head one just got out of hospital (mistake #1 I shouldn't have been riding in the first place) I was in a hurry (mistake #2) I left my boots at home out of hurriedness (mistake #3). I was at a red light and ran out of gas some nice kid while I was in the hospital reset my trip meter and I didn't know I was on reserve. My bright idea was to hop off and push at the same time get the momentum didn't put the kick stand down. When I got off the pavement was uneven and I lost my balance right ankle caught under left side of bike. 3 torn ligaments 5 weeks of crutches and 3 months of PT before walking without major pain. My second incident not sure how I could have prevented it. Was riding down 192 45mph and the car in front of my kicks up a piece of tire the size of a softball and nails me in the shoulder. The armor in the jacket did what it was supposed to do and took the brunt of the blow it knocked my hand off the throttle but I kept him up. My first though was "That wasn't as bad as I thought it would be" but a couple of minutes later my fingers went numb. So, rode into the ER separated shoulder. That too was a lot of fun but could of been alot worse.
Other than good gear the best mod I ever did to Flick was a 139 db horn if you don't see me you will hear me. Just yesterday I was riding to school on I-4 I had the unfortunate luck of being in the center lane when your worse nightmare starts to occur. Both trucks start going for the center lane :o and I'm in it :icon_exclaim: :icon_eek: I dropped the clutch and start laying on the horn apparently both heard me as they went back to their lanes. I'm sure if I didn't have that horn I may have been a trucker sandwich. You gotta keep your head on a swivel and always prepare for the worst possible scenario so you can avoid it. I had that fear in the back of my mind and was able to get out of the situation if I didn't I might not of responded in time.
Biking is the most relaxing thing I do and wouldn't trade it for the world!
Mary
I'm gonna have to disagree with the "fear keeps you alive" stuff. I'd say it's knowledge/awareness of the situation & dangers of riding that keeps you alive. DO NOT RIDE WITH FEAR. This will cripple you. A scared rider is a dangerous rider.
I'd check out Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist Vol.2 for some good advice on the subject. Fear triggers survival reactions, which in turn cause you to do things that compromise your riding, for example tensing up, getting tunnel vision, chopping the throttle midturn. Check it out.
Also what's the fun of riding if you're scared all the time? I want to feel fulfilled when I get home from a ride, not relieved. :dunno_black:
First off, most motorcycle crashes are the riders fault ~ going too fast and getting yourself in a situation you can't handle. Secondly, if you avoid over-exuberance you may still crash, but the results are likely to be less serious, such as the incidences others have noted in their posts. Thirdly, you are 14 times more likely to be killed in a motorcycle collision than in a car, for reasons you already clearly understand. If you keep in mind that probably 95% of all traffic 'accidents' are attributable to driver error, that leaves a lot of room for you to mitigate your risk through better driving yourself in terms of your riding skills ~ this means a combination of knowing what to watch for, when and why, plus good operator control skills. You may still die, but at least you will have lived while you had the chance :)
Quote from: KnuckleBallz on February 16, 2012, 08:48:22 AM
I'm gonna have to disagree with the "fear keeps you alive" stuff. I'd say it's knowledge/awareness of the situation & dangers of riding that keeps you alive. DO NOT RIDE WITH FEAR. This will cripple you. A scared rider is a dangerous rider.
I'd check out Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist Vol.2 for some good advice on the subject. Fear triggers survival reactions, which in turn cause you to do things that compromise your riding, for example tensing up, getting tunnel vision, chopping the throttle midturn. Check it out.
Also what's the fun of riding if you're scared all the time? I want to feel fulfilled when I get home from a ride, not relieved. :dunno_black:
:thumb: :thumb:
I do not fear riding. There are a few things that cause some concern like loose/slippery stuff in the road, critters that appear suddenly, etc. Fear can cause you to make mistakes by affecting your judgement. You can overcome fear with experience. When riding I try to stay calm and enjoy the ride. The last thing I'll say is no matter what the situation, DON'T PANIC!
This is a great discussion. I love reading other people's opinions and perspectives on stuff like this :D So here's mine; Fear is a funny thing and I personally think no 2 people deal with fear the same way. When I first got on a motorcycle I was scared and the fear was very real, no question about it. Fear is typically eliminated by experience; your level of fear for something is drastically reduced when you understand it. ie: I'm no longer afraid of the dark ;) The same logic can be applied here, your fear is simply of the unknown and lack of experience and the only thing that fixes that is time. For me that's one of the most enjoyable parts of the fear journey, when I think back to my first ride where I was white knuckled, hanging on for dear life while doing 60kmh down the road it was one of those occasions when both fun and fear collided ... and what a feeling that is. It's also incredibly fun to watch your fear dissipate the more you ride and as time goes by. Just like your first day of school.
Everyone lives life by their own code but for me I've always lived by the mantra that if I were to let my fear of something deter me from doing it...I'd probably never do anything, or I would sure miss out on alot of fun stuff. That's not to say there aren't things I won't do, but I certainly don't let fear rule my life. So MANY people think I'm crazy when they find out I ride. I find there's this bizarre stigma that motorcycle riding = death. You have to maintain a certain level of fear in anything you do that presents some element of risk - I recently watched the Motorcycle Documentary 'Faster' and recall both Wayne Rainey and Valentino Rossi saying something very similar to that about fear. Even they get scared.
I also believe (and some may argue this point) I personally don't think riding a motorcycle is for everyone. It requires a certain level of co-ordination and understanding that some people have an incredibly hard time grasping and as a result their fear is never overcome...which in my opinion is dangerous. If you are "gut twistingly" afraid every time you throw your leg over a motorcycle, I think that's a recipe for disaster, your focus is immediately compromised.
Riding requires your COMPLETE and absolute attention and focus at all times.
Quote from: Foxtrot Tango on February 15, 2012, 11:43:37 PM
My name is Foxtrot Tango, and I am not here.
This is going to be a long-ish post and it may not make much sense, but bear with me. Any and all criticism is welcomed. If you have acute AD/HD, scroll to the bottom and my question is in bold.
...words....
what a very intelligent and accident-free driver (me) did this morning -- accidentally violate someone else's right of way and pull out for a right-hand turn instead of stopping and letting the car by-- in any of these situations, you can be toast.
How do you deal with the fear? I love motorcycles, I love the GS500, and I want one. But I'm still afraid of it.
welcome, long time lurker, student, FT :-)
almost 40, kids, wife, houses, student-again, not stupid, but not doctor material. reality is my friend, no tickets in ohhhh, 9+ years, 5 of which have been on motorcycles, about 50,000 miles under my belt. introduction over
2-3 months ago, for the first time, i ran wide in a turn. it was a spirited ride on my drz, on a very nice secondary road. spirited means, barely above speed limit. i mis-judged a decreasing radius LH turn, and exited to a nice open grassy shoulder, missing a large rock and creek behind it. the bike was fine, i was shaken. speed was not a contributor, it was just plain bad judgement and poor depth perception from a heavy astigmatism.
fear -
keeps you safe. fear keeps you safe. fear, keeps you s a f e.
i've taught my kids that fear is a nature feeling made to bring our attention to a dangerous situation, and the need to act accordingly to minimize the risk of being hurt. the dark can be scary for three and five year olds. going fast down a hill on a bike, similar. fear, makes them realize that yes, there -is- something to be afraid of, even if it is familiar and predictable. bumping into a chair in the dark and stubbing a toe is a good example of a reason to be attentive, just like a skinned knee is a reminder of how going too fast can lead to instability and pain.
fear is keeping me safe.
i've found that exploring trails on two wheels has a much lower chance of being a fatal accident than sharing roads with idiots texting with their phones instead of driving. in all my road miles, i was never hurt. since beginning in the dirt, i've broken tibia twice, and now have to broken/bruised radius. the number of miles per injury is very low in comparison dirt:road. the enjoyment is also hugely different. keeping the skill level and riding conditions in mind while watching how others attack a problem is working fairly well (aside the broken bits) so far.
I love YOU and dad are right about the road. completely right. it is unsafe. it is to be feared, and not just the other drivers, as i learned recently. with so many distractions in a car, it's a wonder anyone makes it to work alive each morning. cell phones, lcd screens, noses to pick, clothes to change ('ve seen this first hand), teeth to floss, etc.
where is -your- balance ? do you have the maturity to keep the urge to twist and smile at bay ? do you trust anyone (yourself included) to pay 100% of attention at the task at hand ?
let down your guard in a car and you might be hurt. on a bike, it's guaranteed. the fear is in place to get your attention. use it.
** the short answer **
i use the fear of not seeing my kids again to keep me safe.
Before: Say a prayer
During: Enjoy the ride
After: Give thanks
:cheers:
Quote from: redhawkdancing on February 16, 2012, 01:12:11 PM
Before: Say a prayer
During: Enjoy the ride
After: Give thanks
:cheers:
Now that sounds like a plan :thumb:
:cheers:
Quote from: dam on February 16, 2012, 02:00:43 PM
Quote from: redhawkdancing on February 16, 2012, 01:12:11 PM
Before: Say a prayer
During: Enjoy the ride
After: Give thanks
:cheers:
Now that sounds like a plan :thumb:
:cheers:
+1 to that and to Mary's post.
Right along those lines...if you are afraid of dying, then consider what it is exactly you are afraid of. We will all meet out maker one day. This is the only gaurentee in life.
I hope the OP does get a bike.
Good for him. At least he is thinking about it the right way. Not in reverse like most squidlys do.
First up riding a motorcycle may kill you. You make your decision on that one before you get on the thing. It's not the stupidest lifestyle choice you can make but it's not brilliant either. I have made my choice and put myself out there on the bike, so there's no point worrying, it just distracts me from the task at hand. I've got myself out of a few situations that are really scary in the retelling, but at the time were strangely calm.
One way to prepare and rid yourself of excessive fear is to ride a bicycle. That will get you into traffic on 2 wheels. That will get you used to 2 wheels and paying attention to traffic.
Should get mister onto foxtrot, mister is a big 919 (hornet) fan.
Quote from: adidasguy on February 16, 2012, 12:44:37 AM
So....
1. I am on a bike and no one can see me
2. Cagers can't see me and are known for road rage or just being pushy in their driving
3. I will be submissive. If they want intpo my lane - OK. You can have it. \
4. The way cagers drive, I know they will have an accident or get a ticket. They will NOT have an accident with me.
5. I will stay clear of these squidly cagers.
6. I will NOT i.e. NEVER drive like a squid. I can watch True TV Worlds Dumbest and see what will happen if I drive like a squid.
May I add a line?
7. BE Invisible. High vis mil spec jackets and reflectors and other flashy bits are great, but unless its required by law, im dressing in all drab black. Only think colourful is my white tourmaster logo.
You should drive like your invisible, and people act like MORONS when they know your there, so making yourself as unseen as possible wont hurt.
Heres some philosophy.
Car drives like idiot - given
car sees motorcyclist and changes driving behavior - given
motorcyclist makes themselves visible to be seen to cars - given
THEREFORE: If your on a motorcycle and your highly visible, when the car notices you, he will not only drive like an idiot, but his behaviour will be erratic.
Heres the same scenario if your dressing like a ghost:
Car drives like idiot - given
car sees motorcyclist and changes driving behavior - given
Motorcyclist dressing to NOT be seen - given
THEREFORE: If your on your motorcycle and your a ghost, the car won't notice you, and will continue driving like an idiot, but not an erratic idiot.
Quote from: codajastal on February 16, 2012, 05:27:42 PM
Quote from: adidasguy on February 16, 2012, 05:21:08 PM
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Videos/bj11.gif)
:kiss3:
At least someones willing to hug
I'll hug Adidasguy anytime. :whisper: Wait I already have last year! hopefully again in March! :kiss3:
BTW even my cat facepalmed this thread!
(http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr264/Toogoofy317/P1010088.jpg)
Quote from: Toogoofy317 on February 16, 2012, 10:03:01 PM
Quote from: J_Walker on February 16, 2012, 02:06:45 PM
BLAH BLAH BLAH, INSULTS I did not start insulting none of you, only the OP.
You all started insulting me? Over what? I don't know. Maybe your intelligence level is truly lower than you think if you have to get your point across to someone by using vulgar statements to belittle them. Also Yes, I do type shaZam! that pops into my head. I also say what comes into my head. Sorry. I speak my mind. seems like a dying breed now days. I'm not gonna kiss any ones asses, if the f%$king President of the united states came up to me. I'd tell him off. what makes any of you so special? I will treat everyone the same. as I treat everyone else. Show me respect and I'll do the same for you. Simple 1st grade logic.
I enjoy you all. Its entertaining to me.
See, typically there is kinda of a mutual respect on this board until you blow it. I've held my tongue when you've insulted me but your talking and saying whatever pops into your head is a huge turn off. With the attitude you currently have you won't get very far in life.
BTW I observed in one of your for sale/trade post that you wanted stuff delivered to 34747 which means you live on the mean streets of Celebration Florida! :bs: The scariest thing you encounter there are poor little me teenagers that think they have a hard life because mommy and daddy don't buy them what they want. It's also the town that Mickey built! I about died from laughter when I found that is where you live. Because of the posts you put up about our community how you can't sleep at night. It must be you because I sure don't have a problem after work and full-time school. I mean come on at least make it good and say you lived off of Parramore or Silverstar shoot even OBT would've been better than Celebration!
You've got a lot of growing up to do! Hopefully it is not on the bike because you certainly don't have the maturity level required to live long on one!
May your day be as pleasant as you are!
Mary
Bless your heart mary. I hope one day to ride with you, you seem like a cool cat.
Xune you in Central Fl? If so absolutely! I'll ride with anyone until they show me they are a squid or an a$$ i.e. endangering others in the ride! Shoot me a PM and we will ride. Weather is getting great around here today was OMG perfect took Flick out on I-4 toward Tampa and since I'm done with the break in got to WOT a little. It took hours to wipe the grin off my face. Oh how I love where I live!
Mary
Quote from: Toogoofy317 on February 16, 2012, 10:12:01 PM
Xune you in Central Fl? If so absolutely! I'll ride with anyone until they show me they are a squid or an a$$ i.e. endangering others in the ride! Shoot me a PM and we will ride. Weather is getting great around here today was OMG perfect took Flick out on I-4 toward Tampa and since I'm done with the break in got to WOT a little. It took hours to wipe the grin off my face. Oh how I love where I live!
Mary
I was in Orlando for business all week. Just got back to Illinois today. I'm definitely jealous of your weather right now.
Quote from: Toogoofy317 on February 16, 2012, 10:12:01 PM
Xune you in Central Fl? If so absolutely! I'll ride with anyone until they show me they are a squid or an a$$ i.e. endangering others in the ride! Shoot me a PM and we will ride. Weather is getting great around here today was OMG perfect took Flick out on I-4 toward Tampa and since I'm done with the break in got to WOT a little. It took hours to wipe the grin off my face. Oh how I love where I live!
Mary
pm sent!
Quote from: bombsquad83 on February 16, 2012, 10:13:34 PM
I was in Orlando for business all week. Just got back to Illinois today. I'm definitely jealous of your weather right now.
Oh sucks to be you well at least you got Manning oh wait you might not even have that! :flipoff: Bomb I will think about you when I ride! :icon_mrgreen:
Mary
Quote from: bombsquad83 on February 16, 2012, 10:13:34 PM
Quote from: Toogoofy317 on February 16, 2012, 10:12:01 PM
Xune you in Central Fl? If so absolutely! I'll ride with anyone until they show me they are a squid or an a$$ i.e. endangering others in the ride! Shoot me a PM and we will ride. Weather is getting great around here today was OMG perfect took Flick out on I-4 toward Tampa and since I'm done with the break in got to WOT a little. It took hours to wipe the grin off my face. Oh how I love where I live!
Mary
I was in Orlando for business all week. Just got back to Illinois today. I'm definitely jealous of your weather right now.
HA! welcome back sucker. ;)
I feel the same way every time i go back to my hometown of Houston.
Why do i live here again? LOL.
On the plus, it should be in the 50s this weekend. Good weather to at least fire up the bike for a quick trip.
Anyway, i think the OP seems like an ok guy. I took the "....and i'm not here." quote as a tongue in cheek joke because his over protective parents would slay him for even THINKING about a motorcycle.
:: shrugs ::
So, im debating, slowly swinging this thread into the tardfarm by force, or letting it play out to see where it leads?
Am I the only one that has realized there is no longer a tard farm area? I keep hearing people talk about "tard farm" and I wonder to myself if anybody has looked at the board index recently.
Its under the other section, other test area
Quote from: xunedeinx on February 16, 2012, 10:40:09 PM
Its under the other section, other test area
Well, now I feel dumb. For some reason, the "Other" section had been collapsed. Maybe it happened when the site was down?
No, just when your down under, the sectons on the bottom are actually on the top, you know, different hemispheres, toilet flushing in reverse, and stuff... :thumb:
Quote from: xunedeinx on February 16, 2012, 10:51:19 PM
No, just when your down under, the sectons on the bottom are actually on the top, you know, different hemispheres, toilet flushing in reverse, and stuff... :thumb:
...LOL
I mean, it's not like I was missing anything anyway...there's nothing of value under "other".
FT, I enjoyed reading your prose. It was refreshing to hear an honest account of your initial interest, thought process and concerns over riding. Some of those thoughts reflected mine- and I'm sure many other readers share them as well.
You're the only one who can judge if the risk of what's "entirely beyond your control" overwhelms your desire to ride. It seems that, despite what you feel, you've already chosen the steps to prepare yourself: MSF (+1000), gear (+100), GS500 (+1).
In my own experience, I also had a considerable amount of fear when I first decided to ride, and the negative (but but not illogical) "what if?" thoughts were perseverative in my mind. Those feelings changed over time (to caution, confidence, etc) when I gained basic experience in the parking lot and took the MSF (not to mention having received lots of advice and support from friends). Do I still have fear? Certainly! But it plays its part in a much smaller way for me, and my enjoyment of the sport has the upper hand. If your interest has led you this far, then I've no doubt that you'll take your next steps. Besides, there's nothing that says you can't turn back, right? There's no shame in that.
Okay, so after a long day at work, out and about: I'm honestly impressed with the quality of some of the posts here. Well, at least on the first few pages, and the gems in between. It's important to distinguish between fear and panic, so let's do that: When I wrote of "fear" I was referring to rational apprehension, panic is response taken to sudden feelings of imminent danger. You can have fear without panic. And I think it's an honest thing to say that the fear can keep you alive. Panic, of course, is bad. Our species evolves mentally and technologically much more quickly than physically. Our instincts in danger can lead us to trouble when we're at the controls of a machine. Training controls panic.
I think the key is to reject unnecessary risk ("Hey, I wonder if I can take that 35 MPH turn at 55 to impress that girl in the Miata...") and mitigate existing risk. Full gear, head to toe, an excellent starting bike like the GS500 (F-16 pilots don't start flying with F-16s), rider training, and buddies at work who are experienced riders and can coach me.
At some point, I will crash. But now I think I stand a pretty damned good chance of walking away, maybe even unharmed.
(Besides, that statistic that says you're 14 times more likely to die is probably mostly squids in tank tops, anyway.)
Thanks for getting this train wreck of a thread back on track Aldfalchius
Quote from: Foxtrot Tango on February 16, 2012, 11:45:44 PM
You can have fear without panic. And I think it's an honest thing to say that the fear can keep you alive. Panic, of course, is bad.
So true. As I said when you fear something there is a big element of respect there as well.
I would also like to apologise on behalf of the GStwins members who contribute in a courteous manner for the pretentious ramblings that were posted in your thread.
Quote from: Foxtrot Tango on February 16, 2012, 11:45:44 PM
(Besides, that statistic that says you're 14 times more likely to die is probably mostly squids in tank tops, anyway.)
they are the ones that ruin it for the rest of us
@foxtrot: get yourself a copy of twist of the wrist 2 the book or DVD. Alot of the things you said there are covered and it's invaluable.
Quote from: Foxtrot Tango on February 16, 2012, 11:45:44 PM
Okay, so after a long day at work, out and about: I'm honestly impressed with the quality of some of the posts here. Well, at least on the first few pages, and the gems in between. It's important to distinguish between fear and panic, so let's do that: When I wrote of "fear" I was referring to rational apprehension, panic is response taken to sudden feelings of imminent danger. You can have fear without panic. And I think it's an honest thing to say that the fear can keep you alive. Panic, of course, is bad. Our species evolves mentally and technologically much more quickly than physically. Our instincts in danger can lead us to trouble when we're at the controls of a machine. Training controls panic.
I think the key is to reject unnecessary risk ("Hey, I wonder if I can take that 35 MPH turn at 55 to impress that girl in the Miata...") and mitigate existing risk. Full gear, head to toe, an excellent starting bike like the GS500 (F-16 pilots don't start flying with F-16s), rider training, and buddies at work who are experienced riders and can coach me.
At some point, I will crash. But now I think I stand a pretty damned good chance of walking away, maybe even unharmed.
(Besides, that statistic that says you're 14 times more likely to die is probably mostly squids in tank tops, anyway.)
In my younger days I've gone down without any gear and walked or rode away with no serious injuries. Now I prefer to use proper protective gear. My point is that if and when you crash you have a good chance of surviving the ordeal just fine. When first learning to ride there will be some scary moments like the first time or three when you feel the tires loose grip and slide a bit. With experience you'll gain confidence in the bike and yourself. You've got the right idea of not trying to impress anybody or taking unnecessary risk. You'll be fine. As for the GS500 being a good starter bike, well IMO it's just a good bike. It's not my first bike and I thoroughly enjoy it.
Chicks may dig scars, but they don't dig skin grafts.
Wear your gear kids.
Quote from: Foxtrot Tango on February 16, 2012, 11:45:44 PM
(Besides, that statistic that says you're 14 times more likely to die is probably mostly squids in tank tops, anyway.)
You're mistaken. IF there is a crash, of any kind, you are much more likely to die or suffer life long injuries on a bike opposed to in a car. Don't be misled.
Nerve damage, etc is highly more likely on a bike.
Bone damage and internal bleeding is much greater possibility on a bike.
I don't have fear. I have acute awareness.
For example, to handle right-of-way violations I tend to only ride on streets that have "go on green arrow only" lights. The benefit of being raised around here is that I know most intersections and their nature. I avoid yields at all cost. This includes areas with 4-way stops. It's not uncommon for people to blow through stop signs here.
I'm always ATGATT.
I take the highway anywhere I can. Highways are the safest place for a motorcycle to be. Single direction traffic is VERY manageable even if people are merging into you left and right.
I tap my brakes to warm my rotors up before entering an intersection with a yield and try my best to enter an intersection 5 or so miles below the speed limit to give myself a better chance of slowing myself down to the point where, should I make an impact with something, the likelihood of me getting critically injured or killed is significantly less.
I swerve in my lane as I'm doing the above in order to get the attention of the driver in the right-turn/left-turn lane as I approach them.
I pay attention to traffic conditions, road conditions, and what's going on ahead of me. I'm (mostly) aware of what's behind me and the speed it's approaching.
As far as stops. When I see someone approaching behind me and I have no car covering me I get on both brakes. I figure if I'm hit them at least the brakes will take most of the impact force and reduce the force that I hit the guy's hood with. Otherwise I'll just stay on my rear brake at a long stop light, or my front brake at a shorter one.
I ride very conservatively and save spirited riding for the track. As much as I'd love to tear up the mountains here I don't want to risk a squid/trucker/car deciding to take over my entire lane during a turn. I've had my fair share of close calls that taught me everything above is so important it should be practiced in a parking lot in a controlled environment.
I always ride with my high beams on (in the day time)
Every little bit helps.
Statistics often do not capture data that would allow us to glean the type of information we might want ~ for all riders you are 14 times more likely to die on a motorcycle than in a car, although this includes a lot of people with no training, little experience and who don't wear proper gear or helmets. So there is a lot of room to reduce the risk, and in a perfect world I am suggesting we could reduce it by 95%. Being that even the best trained, equipped and experienced rider like Valentino Rossi still makes mistakes, you are not ever going to reduce your risk by 95%. But there is still a wide margin between 0-95% where there are some real gains to be made.
I've seen two references to Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II book. I have an additional suggestion: David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling. Dr.McNinja's points come right out of that book. Much more applicable to street riding than Code's, IMHO. But get both if you can.
And, I really like how FT writes! Stick around, even if you don't get a GS500!
What you will notice as you get more experience on the bike and your confidence increases is that you will start to develop this weird 6th sense where you will be travelling along for example say on a dual carriageway and you will notice one car out of a long line of many and you will think to yourself "Keep an eye on this guy." More often than enough he will try to do something like change lanes on you. It happens a lot on the road, some days you can tell what the driver is going to do even before the driver does. You will be doing a lot of thinking for yourself and for others when riding. So be prepared to concentrate while on the bike. It isn't like a car where you can just zone out.
Quote from: Foxtrot Tango on February 16, 2012, 11:45:44 PM
I think the key is to reject unnecessary risk ("Hey, I wonder if I can take that 35 MPH turn at 55 to impress that girl in the Miata...")
Still waiting to read about unneccessary risk....
:cool:
An unnecessary risk - chucking a wheelie in rush hour on a wet road.
Unnecessary risks:
1. Riding in show
2. Riding in ice
3. Riding and not watching out for black ice when hovering around freezing
4. Riding in the rain in the fall in wet leaves because if it is something I wouldn't rollerblade on, I shouldn't ride a bike on it either. Wet leaves are like ice.
5. Having a passenger when you really don't like doing that but someone won't stop bugging you to give them a ride. (Reason for solo seats!)
6. I'm just going down the block to the store so I don't need my gear for that short distance.
7. "This is MY lane so car - get out of my way!" That never works for obvious reasons.
8. Plowing fast through puddles just to see how far you can splash only to suddenly realize you're hydro-planing and will soon be on your face drinking up the puddles.
9. Going faster than you feel comfortable going.
Quote from: slipperymongoose on February 17, 2012, 05:33:25 PM
An unnecessary risk - chucking a wheelie in rush hour on a wet road.
Chucking a wheelie at all is the risk. Not just when it's busy.
Other risks include trying to keep up with more experienced riders on unfamiliar roads.
Lane splitting
Following close to the car in front
There's a million of them
Unnecessary risk: Hey everybody watch this :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: dam on February 17, 2012, 09:55:58 PM
Unnecessary risk: Hey everybody watch this :icon_mrgreen:
Its a redneck mans famous last words...
"Hey check this out!!!"
Quote from: adidasguy on February 17, 2012, 07:07:19 PM
Unnecessary risks:
2. Riding in ice
3. Riding and not watching out for black ice when hovering around freezing
5. Having a passenger when you really don't like doing that but someone won't stop bugging you to give them a ride. (Reason for solo seats!)
9. Going faster than you feel comfortable going.
Quote
8. Plowing fast through puddles just to see how far you can splash only to suddenly realize you're hydro-planing and will soon be on your face drinking up the puddles.
Due to their rounded profile and very different footprint motorcycle tires are far less likely to hydroplane than wide flat car tires but still an unnecessary risk.
Calculated risk:Quote
1. Riding in snow
4. Riding in the rain in the fall in wet leaves because if it is something I wouldn't rollerblade on, I shouldn't ride a bike on it either. Wet leaves are like ice.
There are those that ride year round regardless of the weather except for ice. I've never had problems with snow or wet leaves. What are you supposed to do stop and find an alternate rout if there's something on the road? You might also want to avoid sand, gravel, mud from the farm implements, and road apples. Watch out for the walnuts in the fall also ;)
Freedom of choice!Quote
6. I'm just going down the block to the store so I don't need my gear for that short distance.
Insane risk!!!:Quote
7. "This is MY lane so car - get out of my way!" That never works for obvious reasons.
There are many hazards in life. We all take risks and must accept the consequences of our choices.
FT,
Thanks for ASKing this question. Even if you are not here. Those of us who are not here usually keep it to ourselves. The others just don't understand. Ok?
Now. Let's start you off slow. Go here http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/publications/2005/ride_on_video.aspx and watch the videos. They are Not long and are aimed at the beginner - BUT - they have something we all can do with reminding of now and then.
You like 919s and GS500s? You must be a real good bloke, eh? Here are my babies...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Uu82vCK8gaA/TvgcahheRDI/AAAAAAAAA2M/K8TAt9SNrZc/s640/MtLindesay.jpg)
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4087/5024864231_5575109895_z.jpg)
Anyway. On to your question about FEAR.
Let's start with statistics. X% of riders who crash die in the crash, blah blah. First and foremost this Assumes a crash to begin with. THEN, you need to consider what circumstances lead to the crash. Sure cars can whiz through an intersection etc., but by far and large the motorcyclist themselves must take the blame for most offs. And around where I live there are some Very tempting roads. And the Rossi Wannabes get out in force. Usually there is an ambulance heading into these areas each day on the weekend. Sometimes they die, sometimes they live. So WHO is more Likely to crash? Joe riding to work on his GS500 taking it easy or Bob on his zx14 roaring up the middle of cars doing 50 over the speed of traffic? And if a crash happens, who is most likely to not come off very well? So with this in mind...
Rule 1 - don't ride where the squids ride (they're squids even in full leathers)
Rule 2 - don't ride like the squids ride
Onward.
Statistically speaking, you are More Likely to crash (crashing is not guaranteed ok?) your bike if...
1 - You have ridden less than 8000km on it, regardless of how long you have had it
2 - you have had it for less than 6 months.
Why?
Because that is roughly the time/distance it takes for you to experience everything you need to experience about THAT bike. Change bikes and your 6 months / 8000 clicks clock is reset. Learner or not. This applies to everyone.
Next highest stat of crashed riders after the above is those who have ridden for two years. Because after two years you begin to think you know everything and can handle everything. This usually entails a bike upgrade along the lines. And you can see where this is going, can't you?
Enough of the morbid.
Riders 6th Sense is real. Cagers don't have it and don't generally get it. That's because, once they get behind the wheel and into their box, they mentally switch off and become Less Alert. Motorcyclists, on the other hand, become More Alert when they hop on their bike. If for no other reason than they HAVE to.
Cagers wonder why riders always want to get around them. They don't understand our Screaming Urge to have better vision of the road in front, to be away from the 1500kg of steel being controlled by a person who has Switched Off.
My father told me when I first got behind the wheel of a car... Son, a car is a Lethal Weapon. You are now in control of a Lethal Weapon. Drive accordingly.
Any time we try something new we experience FEAR. Our bodies way of making us pause for a moment to take stock of the situation. After experiencing this fear, consciously going ahead with it, and having no ill effects, the next time the fear (apprehension) will have diminished. The more you do the thing the less you fear the thing. The more Respect you should gain for the thing.
Risk v Reward. Unfortunately, this requires pre-thought. But it's still a good thing to have in your mind.
Eg. Travel up this 12 click stretch of road Averaging 100 by riding in and out and around and splitting traffic. Reward. Arrive 6 minutes later.
VS... travel up this road averaging 80 by riding with the traffic. Reward is, arrive 9 minutes later.
A LOT of risk for 3 minutes in time. The second rider will probably pull up next to the risky rider at the next set of traffic lights.
Michael
Very well said Mister.
And nice bikes
Gee mister you took your time. Glad you made it though hittin the nail on the head as usual.
I'm at a similar starting point to ya FT. I would only say that while cars are safer to be involved in a crash, from what i've learned so far, riders who go about things the right way are better at avoiding crashes. Obviously everyone's posted a million ways to be safer on a bike. Don't speed recklessly, be almost paranoid attentive to surroundings, don't ride while impared (injured, intoxicated, distracted.) The facts still boil down to bikes can be dangerous to ride. Extra danger just means extra respect for what you're doing. Airplanes are statistically a very safe method of transportation. Yet plane crashes are extremely dangerous for people on them. Does that mean you shouldn't fly? Commercial pilots don't pop wheelies and race other planes for a reason.
Quote from: fraze11 on February 16, 2012, 11:04:45 AM
if I were to let my fear of something deter me from doing it...I'd probably never do anything, or I would sure miss out on alot of fun stuff.
If buying a bike is something you want, do it regardless of what other people tell you. Just do it right and enjoy doing it the right way.
Edit : Oh yeah, and J_Walker Rant and Rave Show was very entertaining. Top notch.
In Australia 49% of rider fatalities are single vehicle crashes in corners.
That's means that riders simply run wide or lose control in a corner because they went in too fast.
Quote from: slipperymongoose on February 17, 2012, 12:10:30 AM
@foxtrot: get yourself a copy of twist of the wrist 2 the book or DVD. Alot of the things you said there are covered and it's invaluable.
This book is useful but not necessary. I've watched the video a few times, but it's mainly geared towards track riding, spirited mountain riding, and good riding posture and understanding your bike's geometry.
Admittedly it helped my posture quite a bit and it helped me understand the geometry of my bike better which enabled me to make turns better and more confidently. Especially at high speed.
However, A Twist of the Wrist 2 is (I'll get killed for saying this) virtually worthless outside of those things. The Proficient Motorcycling series does a much better job at teaching practical street survival tactics and gives you plenty of good tips on things beyond track skills.
Quote from: SgtBatten on February 18, 2012, 01:49:43 AM
In Australia 49% of rider fatalities are single vehicle crashes in corners.
That's means that riders simply run wide or lose control in a corner because they went in too fast.
Most fatal accidents here, between cars and motorcycles, occur in intersections due to failure to yield right-of-way. The vast majority of these are motorcycles.
Aside from the typical "going to fast the car couldn't gauge your speed clearly" cage drivers are the exact problem with this. Unfortunately unlike other countries it's so easy to get your driver's license (I suspect this has to do with insurance companies wanting more money) that the vast majority of cage drivers AND motorcycle riders in America are absolutely atrocious at it. As an example a few weeks ago a Electra Glide split my lane while I was riding because I was going to slow. AN ELECTRA GLIDE. Those things are the size of trucks compared to a GS500. Then, a few days after that some mexican gang banger thought he'd be tough and come from behind us and swing a hard right in front of us. We were already stopped, he did nothing but look like an @$$hole. Follow, yesterday a truck decided to ride me all the way to my fender, veer off into oncoming traffic, and then swing back into my lane hard to get in front of me. Probably did it to "show me a lesson". The speed limit was 25, I was doing 15 because the asphalt was cracked and had MOUNDS of tar you couldn't avoid in some sections.
My point is, people - cagers especially - are inconsiderate morons. No amount of training will save you from having to deal with these morons because they're everywhere. The only thing that will save is developing your rider "6th sense" and being aware of what's all around you at all times.
In town, you are more likely to be injured at an intersection because another driver did not see you. Outside town you are more likely to be killed because you were going too fast and lost control.
Quote from: SgtBatten on February 18, 2012, 01:49:43 AM
In Australia 49% of rider fatalities are single vehicle crashes in corners.
That's means that riders simply run wide or lose control in a corner because they went in too fast.
Or because they started too tight, or misread the shape of the curve, or the surface, or because they were overwhelmed by feeling like they were going to run wide, and so target fixated and ran wide. There's some scandanavian study of motorcycle cornering accidents that found that most riders who binned their shit on a corner, did so because they panicked thinking they were in too hot when their bike was more than capable of taking the corner at that speed and then some.
Speed's only part of the picture.
Man up?
9/10 times your motorcycle is FAR more capable than you are.
Quote from: SAFE-T on February 18, 2012, 03:54:20 PM
In town, you are more likely to be injured at an intersection because another driver did not see you. Outside town you are more likely to be killed because you were going too fast and lost control.
We were told on our motorcycle course that 90% of motorcycle accidents are the riders fault. Following to close, Riding in blind spots, etc, etc.
Here are a couple of articles discussing on what causes motorcycle accidents. If you want the full paper PM and I will try and get it to you.
Mary
Death by motorcycle: background, behavioral, and situational correlates of fatal motorcycle collisions
Motorcycle fatalities in the United States continue to increase on both crude and adjusted bases. This paper examines fatal motorcycle accidents as a cause of death, using a retrospective analysis of motorcycle operator fatalities from 2003 to 2008 in the state of Indiana. During these six years, out of more than 18,000 motorcycle operators in crashes, 601 were killed. Based on police report data, motorcycle operators during this period are examined to reveal key factors that are in place when a motorcyclist is killed in a collision. The major correlates of death identified were objects of impact, risky behaviors, and speed. The largest positive effects on the chances of death were linked to trees, posts-signs-poles, bridge-guardrail-median, and other motor vehicles. In conjunction with speed, these objects were the primary mechanisms by which fatal injuries were sustained by motorcyclists. Various types of risky behavior were also major correlates of death by motorcycle.
Here is one talking about the incident of the left handed turn accident.
Injuries sustained by motorcycle riders in the approaching turn crash configuration.
Abstract:A common crash configuration involving a motorcycle and another vehicle is termed the 'approaching turn collision', which occurs when a vehicle turns left into the path of an oncoming vehicle. Although research has explained some causes of approaching turn collisions, few studies have described injury outcomes specific to approaching turn collisions involving motorcycles. All fatally injured and a sample of over 3500 nonfatally injured motorcycle riders treated in one of 28 hospitals in 11 California counties were included in this analysis if the crash occurred in 1991 or 1992 and both a police crash report and matching medical diagnoses were available. Injuries sustained by motorcycle riders in approaching turn collisions were compared with injuries sustained by motorcycle riders in other crash types. Injuries occurring when the motorcycle was the left-turning vehicle were compared to those occurring when the car is the left-turning vehicle. Riders in approaching turn collisions had increased lower extremity and abdominal injuries, but less frequently had head, chest, and facial injuries than riders in other crash types. The average ISS score, percent fatally injured, and average number of days in the hospital were greater for riders in approaching turn collisions than riders in other crash types, except the head-on collision. Possible strategies to reduce injuries from approaching turn collisions are discussed. The complexity of turning actions, particularly judgements of speed, could potentially be an intervention point to reduce crash occurrence..
Mary
Quote from: Twisted on February 20, 2012, 01:18:52 PM
We were told on our motorcycle course that 90% of motorcycle accidents are the riders fault. Following to close, Riding in blind spots, etc, etc.
67% of all statistics are made up on the spot...
I'm always wary about statistics because they can be manipulated to support one side. 90% of motorcycle accidents are the rider's fault...such as if a motorcycle is stopped at an intersection and gets rear ended by a car
it's the riders fault because they were in the middle of the lane instead of off to one side...or
it's the rider's fault because they were in neutral instead of in gear...or
it's the rider's fault because they weren't wearing reflective clothing...or their brake light was out...or their reflectors were missing...or...
Ultimately, despite all of those factors, it's the driver of that car's fault. Yet, to an organization with an agenda (even a well meaning one) it's the rider's fault.
Recently I went out for a ride near my house. I crested a hill on a road that I've ridden hundreds of times and the entire road was covered in inch thick wet mud for about 50 yards. Prior to that hill there were no signs posted advising road construction up ahead and I had NO idea. The ONLY reasons I didn't kiss the asphalt were I wasn't speeding and the road was straight. Had there been a curve I would have dropped the bike for sure. As it was I could feel both tires squirming through the mud but managed not to panic and make it through. Now...if I had wrecked would it have been my fault? According to that motorcycle course...yes...it would have been my fault for not knowing the riding conditions...but let's be honest here...short of walking the entire distance of your planned ride every day you never really know the conditions, you just ride within your abilities and plan/practice for the unexpected.
Getting rear-ended is the fault of the person who hit the vehicle in front of them, but just sitting there and never looking in your mirrors and/or not thinking about what you might do if you had to do something certainly doesn't help. In the same way, being cut-off by another driver because they didn't see you in their blind spot is their mistake for not checking their blind spot before changing lanes, although remaining in their blind spot does not help either. Unpredictable road conditions are not the operators fault either, but being ill-prepared to deal with them makes them worse. The point is to understand what is and is not within your control.
Quote from: SAFE-T on February 20, 2012, 06:24:16 PM
Getting rear-ended is the fault of the person who hit the vehicle in front of them, but just sitting there and never looking in your mirrors and/or not thinking about what you might do if you had to do something certainly doesn't help. In the same way, being cut-off by another driver because they didn't see you in their blind spot is their mistake for not checking their blind spot before changing lanes, although remaining in their blind spot does not help either. Unpredictable road conditions are not the operators fault either, but being ill-prepared to deal with them makes them worse. The point is to understand what is and is not within your control.
I get that and agree completely. I just do not like the knee jerk answer that (almost) any accident on a motorcycle is automatically the rider's fault. Certainly the rider often contributes to the cause of the accident.
In my EMT training MVA are no longer referred as accidents. They are referred to as collisions because an "accident" would infer that no one was at fault it just happened. I tend to concur with the exception of getting nailed with a piece of tire at 45 mph (still don't know what else I could have done but I didn't go down either) that every motor vehicle collision is due to someone not obeying the law.
Mary