Ok, I just got my 98 gs500e back from the shop (after three weeks). They rebuilt the front forks, rebuilt and synched the carbs, rejetted, redid the seals on my tach (still doesn't work properly) and installed a K&N Lunchbox. I've read this forum for a while, and something sounded odd when I left the shop with the bike. He had said that he upped the size of the jets as much as possible; however, when I looked at the invoice after getting home, the sizes of the jets were 32.5 pilots and 125 mains. I've read the rejet wiki and for what I have, it should be closer to 40 pilot and at least a 140 main with a washer. I'm almost positive there are no washers since he had said there was an extra one on the needle (it was missing the washer on the other needle when I opened the carbs previously).
What my bike currently has done to it performance-wise is the lunchbox filter and a slipon HD sportster exhaust (which I can only speculate). I can post a few pics later.
Anyway, what is happening now is the revs are very slow to come back down to idle after reving it. Also, before the bike is completely warmed up (at least today), it sounds like there is backfiring in the carbs for a while which went away after about 5 minutes of warming up the engine. In first gear only, the bike will give some hesitation on takeoff and will not give much power after about 3-4k rpm. Second gear has great pickup. Lastly, I went for a good 100 mile ride yesterday and late in the trip, it would backfire once after turning the engine off.
So, any ideas I should think of before taking this thing back to the shop and not seeing it until mid summer?
I see two options:
1. Fix it yourself, which is easier than you think.
2. Take it back and argue with the shop. And it will be an argument. Unless he can show you the A/F ratio throughout the rev range.
See, I want to fix it myself, but last time I removed the carbs, I ended up making things worse. If it is as simple as rejetting up to 40/140 or so, I can do that with no problems; however, if there's a vacuum leak causing the hanging idle or some oddness like that, I'm probably not the guy to go to :)
From what I understand, hanging revs are caused by lean mixtures or vacuum leaks, but backfires out the exhaust are caused by unburnt fuel, which would mean a rich mixture? Also what causes backfires in the carbs on a cold engine?
And, yeah, I really don't want to have an argument with somebody that, in theory, knows a lot more about motorcycles than I do. I mean, the pilot jet they put in is 32.5 but the stock jet is 37.5? I would imagine that putting the k&n would allow a lot more airflow, which would require more fuel? But, like I said, I have never really worked on a motorcycle successfully, so I'm a bit worried to go back into it.
But, you guys are very specialized in your bike knowledge here, so I will definitely take your word over an indy shop. If you say put in bigger jets, I'll do it. I don't think I can f%$k up that much. If I did do this, or any other suggestions, would I need to resync the carbs?
Yeah, if those numbers are right they've gone DOWN in jet size, which is completely the opposite of where they should have gone.
I just did the jets in mine after adding the K&N to the stock exhaust. 40 / 140 felt about as close to perfect as I was gonna get without hooking up an A/F mixture meter. I expect to go up to around 150 on the main when I add the full exhaust later this week.
Your hanging revs could be a number of things. Find the main thread discussing it and work from there.
Personally, I'd be finding a new shop. If they sent it out the door in the condition it's in, they shouldn't get any more of your money. If they're the only ones close, then accept the fact that you've gotta take it further, or get a shop manual and start doing the work yourself.
Quotehe sizes of the jets were 32.5 pilots and 125 mains.
With the lunch box, you should be much larger. you are dangerously lean on the pilot with that size jet, and annoyingly lean on the main.
The backfiring from the exhaust is most likely a leak somewhere in the exhaust.....Hot exhaust gases mix with cold outside air prematurely and causes backfiring. I would suspect this since you mentioned some modded sportster can.............Check the header bolts and junction where the can meets the midpipe.
Thanks a lot for the advice, guys. I'm going to call the guys back and see if they'll rejet and resync for a discounted price or for free since they messed it up. If not, I'll be going at it alone and will probably need some help :)
Ok, just called the shop. He said he put in what they took out jet wise, which means they didn't even think to compensate for the new filter (going from a drop-in k&n to a lunchbox). I'm completely baffled. Well, if it weren't for you guys and this site, I could have really screwed up my engine driving it around like this.
New questions. I've already driven about 130 miles since getting it back. What kind of damage could I have done, how do I look for it, and would it be safe to drive this up to the shop (about 30 miles away) or should I get a friend to loan me his truck to haul it up there?
Again, thanks a lot, guys.
Um.......buy the jets and put them in yourself? Even if you just put in the mains, you'll be doing a favor to your motor.
Where are you located man?
I don't think you will cause any problems with the 30 mile trip as long as it's not 110 degrees outside! What idiots to open up the airbox and not up the jetting....this is why I trust no-one (except for a few motor and suspension gurus) to touch my bikes......
Forgot to add - you could also put the stock airbox and filter back on as well until your problem is solved.
I'm in Northern Indiana near Ft Wayne. And the reason I don't do it myself is just in case it isn't the problem and they find a leak or something. Mostly it's because they have certifications and I don't. Unfortunately, I'm one of those people with no confidence to do something myself unless I can't make it worse. Somehow, some way, I always seems to break things that are mechanical even when following instructions. I mean, I'm no idiot, but working with my hands is my weak point.
If this second round goes poorly with the mechanics, or they charge me for their own mistakes. I'm going to push through and cross my fingers by doing things myself. I've just been without my bike for so long, I'm getting depressed.
If I had somebody looking over my shoulder, I'd love to work on my own bike :)
here's your certificate.....Now get to fixing your own damn bike!
(http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt35/craigs449/certificate.gif)
We aren't trying to bust your chops man. Really. It's just that it's kinda obvious that the shop made a mistake doing something that many people think is an easy job. With the proper tools, a little patience, and the tons of info available here, swapping out some jets is something you can do yourself.
Quote from: 00sanchez on April 16, 2012, 04:42:12 PM
..... Unfortunately, I'm one of those people with no confidence to do something myself unless I can't make it worse. Somehow, some way, I always seems to break things that are mechanical even when following instructions. I mean, I'm no idiot, but working with my hands is my weak point.....
Been there. First muffler change and rear set install I had help.
Now I just jump right in after reading all the advice and mistakes others have made.
I never thought I could build up a bike from a bare frame. Sure, I did have motors in need of work then got one that was running and used it. So I didn't have to repair the motor. I did learn to take it out and put it in the other frame. I learned how to run the wiring harness (and have had to re-run some wires). I jumped in and tried.
I rejetted a carb! I did all kinds of things when Trey was acting up.
The key is just do it. Have all the literature: factory service manual, Haynes and Clymer manuals if you can. Each book presents information differently. Have a parts list (you can get printed parts book) so you know what goes where. Take pictures as you disassemble things. I photographed everything on the parts bike as I stripped it. Now I will compare the pictures tonight to the wiring on Phenix to see if everything is where it should be.
So just get in there and do it.
Soon I will attempt a cylinder honing and new pistons on one of my spare engines. Kind of afraid - but you gotta learn sometime.
If you can, buy a second bike. You have something to ride while you take one apart. You can look at the other bike to see how things go together. (I do that a lot!)
Forks: couple hours at most.
Carbs: a few hours the first time. Buy a spare set for $75 so you have a set to tinker with.
Just changing pilot jets: a few minutes. More time spent is getting the carbs out and back in. I just did 40 pilots on Trey - nothing more. What an improvement!
Spend money on tools and spare parts rather than on shop labor. You'll be way ahead that way. I only go to the shop now for tires. Free install and balancing if you buy the tires there and usually 25% off on tires.
I am amazed that I was able to remove and install an engine by myself. Reading the posts here gave me the background knowledge. I'm still amazed I was able to put it in in 17 minutes and still take pictures and have beer while doing it.
You can do it. You have the certificate to prove it!
PS: And do one thing at a time. I learned that in bowling. If you have a problem - don't change the ball, the approach, the release and your mark all at once. You have no idea when helped or made your bowling worse. With your bike: you changed are filter, jets, exhaust and probably other things all at the same time and now it doesn't run well. Which thing caused the problem? Hard to tell. Change one thing at a time. If it made it worse, you know what went wrong.
You guys are the best. I'm going to do it. Ordering the 40 pilot and 140 mains. I'll give some updates when everything blows up :)
Quote from: 00sanchez on April 16, 2012, 06:33:27 PM
You guys are the best. I'm going to do it. Ordering the 40 pilot and 140 mains. I'll give some updates when everything blows up :)
Atta boy :cheers: Hang your certificate on your garage wall with pride :thumb:
if you pm me your email address, the suzuki factory service manual could possibly appear in your inbox.
^ I'll take you up on that! :cheers:
the link is out to you two kids, enjoy. And enjoy my old webpage, its some quality stuff. :technical: :technical:
Freer flowing exhaust AND filter? Who the hell is this numbskull that worked on your bike?
Why would you go down in pilot jet size when it's a common upgrade to make them BIGGER on stock bikes?
The way it works, if you haven't already figured out, everywhere else [read: not USA], the bikes came with #40 pilot jets. Due to emissions crud in the USA, Suzuki was forced to make them #37 or 37.5 jets which is bordering on too lean. #40 seems to be a heck of a lot better. The backfiring, hesitation...all of that is caused by your mixture being too lean. I would take the bike back to the shop and tell them that you want the correct jets installed. Or ask for them and put them in yourself.
Freer flowing exhaust and freer flowing filter = leans the mixture. The bikes come jetted extremely lean to begin with. Adding aftermarket filter/exhaust causes an even leaner condition. You need to go up to a #40 pilot, and a #140 main. The washers are optional. It's extremely easy to do if you just take your time and don't get ahead of yourself.
Ok, so I called the parts guy at the local suzuki shop and he may have the jets. He wanted to know if the pilot jets were fluted or fluid. I couldn't quite understand him. What exactly should I be asking for? Thanks again, guys. A bit nervous, but I think I can do this.
Never heard of that in reference to jets......or many other things. He should be able to pull up the type of jets on a computer. Stock type jets, except larger sizes.
The WIKI has the correct Mikuni jet part numbers :icon_lol:
Uh...he's asking YOU what the correct jets are? :technical:
I'd go somewhere else. That's like a doctor asking you if you should be prescribed penicillin or doxycycline....
Duh! :cookoo: The correct OEM jets are on the GS500 parts diagrams. Doesn't the dealer have that? :dunno_black:
And its all right here:
http://wiki.gstwins.com/index.php?n=Upgrades.Rejetting
Well, my dealership here are officially idiots. I called two indy shops and between the two, I may actually be able to get all the jets tonight. If not, I'm just ordering. One place has the mains for sure, but not the pilots. The other may have the pilots and is checking right now. If they have them, the bike will be apart in a few moments :)
No luck on the pilots. I just ordered a set of 140 and 147.5 mains and a set of 40 pilots from carbparts.com. It's a 1 day ground ship, so lets hope they get the order out today and I should have them tomorrow :)
Ok, need help real quick. I just took out the pilot jet that the shop had in there, and there are holes in the shaft while the new ones I got have none of these holes. Did I get the wrong jets or did they have the wrong jets in there?
I just went ahead and put in the new 40s. It is now blowing out white smoke from the exhaust and gas is leaking from somewhere. Last time this happened, it was the air box, but I no longer have one of those on there since I installed the lunchbox. I'm currently at 40 pilot, 140 mains, 2.5 turns out with 1 washer. I have a slipon exhaust from a victory and k&n lunchbox filter as upgrades. Any ideas? Was the 140 main overkill?
Anyone? The leak was coming from one of the gas lines. It was on snug, but not all the way up the nozzle. I put it up the rest of the way, and it seems to have stopped leaking.
There is still white smoke from the exhaust, however. Any ideas? I have my license test tomorrow morning and would like to be able to take this bike up there for it. Lets finish this off so I can start driving to work again :)
The pilot jet is the smaller of the two. IIRC the pilot jets do NOT have emulsion holes and only a single hole at the "tip" of the jet that is almost microscopic.
Are you sure it's smoke and not just condensation? Hold your hand in front of the exhaust and see if droplets form on your palm. Smoke is very wispy whereas condensation will just be like, well, steam...because that's what it is. It will not linger if it's condensation.
A video would be very helpful.
Thanks for the reply. It is cold and wet today, around 38f and raining. I'm not getting major water dropplets or anything when I put my hand over the exhaust, but the hand gets moist. I've let it run for about 5 minutes and took it around the block, but the smoke doesn't go away. Should I be good to take it to the test tomorrow? The hesitation from 1st gear seems to be gone now as well. I'll post a video to youtube in a few minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK1Yiw0txtI
Here is the video. The smoke is actually white with no blue tint. I had a buddy put his light down there so you could see it. Poor lighting in the garage.
Definitely condensation. I bet it doesn't linger at all, right? Just goes away immediately?
It's just your bike breathing :P
I think what you should do is wait for it to warm up outside, get the bike running and warmed up, and take it for a spin. If she seems alright, go for the test.
It did last night even after my ride around the block. Ran it until the engine was hot and it didn't go away. This morning, it was still coming out the pipe, but it lessened to almost nothing after about a 10 minute drive on the highway. It was around 35 this morning. I couldn't find my winter gloves, so I tried using a pair of leather carpenters gloves... yeah, that didn't work out too well. I ended up turning around after about 5 miles because my right hand was frozen. I have to wait until next saturday to take the test now.
So, this smoke is probably just condensation due to the cold/moist air? Other than that, the bike feels more responsive through the revs and first gear is riding nicely. The pilots I pulled out where 32.5 which looked like this part BS30/96 and the mains were 125s. I'm pretty damned upset at that shop. I should have known when I called the day it was ready and had to walk the technician through hooking up the last hose from the carb to the evap canister. Oh well, lesson learned.
Quote from: 00sanchez on April 21, 2012, 02:03:12 PM
It did last night even after my ride around the block. Ran it until the engine was hot and it didn't go away. This morning, it was still coming out the pipe, but it lessened to almost nothing after about a 10 minute drive on the highway. It was around 35 this morning. I couldn't find my winter gloves, so I tried using a pair of leather carpenters gloves... yeah, that didn't work out too well. I ended up turning around after about 5 miles because my right hand was frozen. I have to wait until next saturday to take the test now.
So, this smoke is probably just condensation due to the cold/moist air? Other than that, the bike feels more responsive through the revs and first gear is riding nicely. The pilots I pulled out where 32.5 which looked like this part BS30/96 and the mains were 125s. I'm pretty damned upset at that shop. I should have known when I called the day it was ready and had to walk the technician through hooking up the last hose from the carb to the evap canister. Oh well, lesson learned.
It's cold, so yes, it's most likely just condensation. I thought of something you can do to ease your mind. Start the bike, run it for a minute (until you see the "smoke"), then rev it up a few times and then immediately shut it off. Watch the end of the pipe - smoke will linger and slowly drift out of the pipe even after you shut it off. If it's condensation, the moment you shut the bike off, the "smoke" will go away. There'll be no trace of it.
Thanks, Kijona. I'll do that in the morning. I'm still seeing a bit of weirdness in 1st gear. The power seems to be hit and miss at WOT. Every other gear is fine. I haven't really tested the top end as it's been cold. Also, this may just be my having not been formally trained on a bike, but are you supposed to rev the engine up a bit and use the friction zone of the clutch in first gear on all take-offs? If I release the clutch in a car without much gas, I can still punch it and get the power, but on the bike, if I release the clutch without reving or using the friction zone, when the gear engages and I give it WOT, it will bog down for a second and then the power comes in. Is this normal or am I running rich on the pilot? Again, all other gears don't have this problem.
Normal. You have very little power under 3000 rpm.
I think you need to take it easier on the bike man. It's not a crotch rocket and WOT'ing from low RPM really lugs the motor. When I rode mine, and when I did WOT, it was only after the RPMs had gotten above 4.5-5K. You'll get better response that way AND it is easier on the motor. I don't think I ever WOT'ed in 1st gear though...way too jarring and hard on the chain, tires, everything.
Also, rolling the throttle instead of jamming it all the way open will give you better acceleration. The slides need a little bit of time (they lag every-so-slightly when you jerk the throttle open) to get moving. That's probably why there's a hesitation.
Thanks again. I don't usually ride jerking it. I was just testing the system to make sure I don't have any other issues. I'm planning a trip to NC in September and want the bike to be in tip top shape. I had a buddy of mine rearended at a stoplight, so I always give myself room from the car in front of me. So, the reason I was fiddling with first gear acceleration was for those moments when you need to get out of the way quickly in first gear... but, if this is something that is normal, it's good to know if I'm in that situation. Thanks again :)
Quote from: 00sanchez on April 23, 2012, 03:11:55 PM
Thanks again. I don't usually ride jerking it. I was just testing the system to make sure I don't have any other issues. I'm planning a trip to NC in September and want the bike to be in tip top shape. I had a buddy of mine rearended at a stoplight, so I always give myself room from the car in front of me. So, the reason I was fiddling with first gear acceleration was for those moments when you need to get out of the way quickly in first gear... but, if this is something that is normal, it's good to know if I'm in that situation. Thanks again :)
Not a problem. :) The GS500's are a fickle bunch but once you work out their kinks they're extremely reliable. Just don't run it out of oil, don't redline it, and keep lube on the chain. It'll last forever, haha!
I should note that it's usually not the best for motorcycles (or standard-shift cars) to sit at stop lights in gear. Just think...those minutes add up to hours with the clutch pulled in which is excess strain on the cable and other parts, including clutch springs.
Also, since there's a bit of friction left over (just try rolling the bike with it not running and in gear with the clutch pulled in - there's a noticeable difference in amount of effort required to roll the bike), it's going to cause the clutch to generate some extra heat versus just leaving it in neutral. Not a HUGE problem but something to consider. :thumb:
I'll sit at the light with it in gear, thank you. I want every opportunity to GTFO if a car comes upon me too fast.
Once there is a car or two behind me, I'll put it in neutral.
DId you send it? :confused:
Quote from: Paulcet on April 24, 2012, 02:03:14 PM
I'll sit at the light with it in gear, thank you. I want every opportunity to GTFO if a car comes upon me too fast.
Once there is a car or two behind me, I'll put it in neutral.
I guess it just doesn't seem natural to me...here in Atlanta there's tons of traffic all the time so there's ALWAYS a car behind me.
Average...wrong thread maybe?
Yeah, in cars holding the clutch in will wear out the release barring, but I don't do that in the car. I'm like Paul and take every precaution I can when I'm on my bike. I wait for a car to get behind me and then I pull up a bit in case he gets rearended, I have a better chance to pull away, and I always pull up to a car at an angle so I can make a quick getaway. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I feel safer this way.
As an update, it was just condensation as there is no residual smoke after the engine is turned off, and the bike ran rather well today. I do worry about the engine temp from time to time because I can feel the heat on my face when I stand next to the bike. Again, not used to these types of engines, so have no standard to gauge against. Not having a functional tach is also a bit worrying for cruising rpms, but I think I'm ok on those. I just shift to the highest gear to where I still have good torque at half throttle.
I do still have a slight hang on the rpms if my idle is set higher than around 900-1k rpm. If I set it lower than 1k, it will go back down to idle nicely after a healthy rev; however, if I set my idle to 1.2-1.3k, it will hang at around 2.5-2k rpms for a few seconds or so. I guess I'm still lean and should just adjust the mixture screws another half turn or so?
Quote from: 00sanchez on April 25, 2012, 02:53:18 AM
Yeah, in cars holding the clutch in will wear out the release barring, but I don't do that in the car. I'm like Paul and take every precaution I can when I'm on my bike. I wait for a car to get behind me and then I pull up a bit in case he gets rearended, I have a better chance to pull away, and I always pull up to a car at an angle so I can make a quick getaway. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I feel safer this way.
As an update, it was just condensation as there is no residual smoke after the engine is turned off, and the bike ran rather well today. I do worry about the engine temp from time to time because I can feel the heat on my face when I stand next to the bike. Again, not used to these types of engines, so have no standard to gauge against. Not having a functional tach is also a bit worrying for cruising rpms, but I think I'm ok on those. I just shift to the highest gear to where I still have good torque at half throttle.
I do still have a slight hang on the rpms if my idle is set higher than around 900-1k rpm. If I set it lower than 1k, it will go back down to idle nicely after a healthy rev; however, if I set my idle to 1.2-1.3k, it will hang at around 2.5-2k rpms for a few seconds or so. I guess I'm still lean and should just adjust the mixture screws another half turn or so?
Might not hurt to richen the idle a hair more. It's an aircooled engine...expect heat. LOL
Not to worry...you'll know if it starts overheating. Usually the first thing that will happen is it will act like it's starving of fuel because the fuel will start to boil as it hits the carburetors. Excessive backfiring or loss of power is another sign. A lot of valvetrain noise is also another good indication (the oil gets so thin from being hot that it doesn't do a great job of lubing the top-end). Engine knocking/pre-detonation is another good sign that things aren't going so well.
Just be sure to keep an eye on your oil level. Check it at every fillup and you should be good to go. Also, if it ever does start getting blistering hot during the summer, a heavier oil (20w-50) will help keep things together.
You are the man, sir. I feel like I have a great knowledge base to keep me safe out on the road and trouble shoot common problems. You guys are the best.
Quote from: 00sanchez on April 25, 2012, 02:40:14 PM
You are the man, sir. I feel like I have a great knowledge base to keep me safe out on the road and trouble shoot common problems. You guys are the best.
:thumb: (http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/files/hi501.gif)