Starting a new thread. This one will be for the rebuilding/repair of Junior.
I had a great time on Vashon Island riding with about 20 other bikers - mostly BMW as it was sponsored by a BMW dealer.
I had to limp home after lunch. He ran fine for the first 3/4 of the trip (about 30 miles). Then on the way to lunch bad sounds came from him. Junior may have broken a valve or sometrhing else on the top end came loose. He was extremely hot when stopping for lunch. Oil was full - but smoking out of there when I removed the oil cap (HOT!) On part of the last bit before lunch he nearly died then started running rough. The more I went the worse the sound.
There is this annoying clanking of metal and sound of stuff hitting a piston and the inside of the valve cover. Yes, I know I said "annoying" where really is is an extremely BAD sound. After he cools down I'll take off the valve cover for an initial look. Hopefully just the top end and I can swap that out.
Interesting, he does idle at the right speed. If I ignore the metal banging against metal, he does have normal power.
So that's what happened today. I guess I over stressed the old guy and he decided to die.
This is the start of the rebuilding of Junior's engine.
Good luck!
Sucks to hear that.
Hopefully its nothing major.
I might be in the same boat (valve problems) but i think i caught mine before anything to bad happened. least you have another bike, and another bike, and another bike to ride. :flipoff:
OK. Here's the scoop. Follow along and read between the pictures.
I now recall it was about 5k RPM going into a downhill turn and needed to slow a little so down shifted. Engine almost died but kept going after letting the clutch out. Noise and clatter kept getting worse as continuing on and going home. Engine always idled OK and had power. If you think you know where I'm going and you get to the end and agree - please cry with me.
* Removed valve cover. Rotated engine and guess what - it did not jump timing.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01737a.jpg)
* Oil - 1 year old. 10k KM (remember Junior is Canadian). A little dark, but no debris in the oil.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01739a.jpg)
* Thinks look OK down the timing chain cavity and the chain is tight. (Ignore dates on pictures - I never set the date in the spy camera)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0015021J.jpg)
* Both pistons look OK on the top so no metal there
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0017511J.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0016091J.jpg)
So, in getting the engine with a piston at the bottom I cranked the timing clockwise. Then a little counter clockwise and GRIND coming from the transmission.
Can we say that a down shift shattered something in the transmission? That would cause all the metal clanking while the engine still keeps on running?
What do I do now? Doesn't seem necessary to remove the top end. Even the valve clearances all were OK in the range of 050.
I can add that with the cover off and the plugs out I did crank the engine. Cranked smooth with an occasional paTing or CaClunk but not from the cams, or anything that seemed like the top end.
I'm thinking I did a bad thing and downshifted at too high RPM thus shattering something.
What do I do now? Drain oil and remove the side covers? I might as well. Can't get any worse and he was due for an oil change.
Sounds like you need to check the teeth on the clutch plates. Junior may have lost his teeth. Time to call the tooth fairy?
If Im barking up the wrong tree forgive me ......I know nothing about bikes :dunno_black:
Quote from: codajastal on April 28, 2012, 04:51:49 PM
Sounds like you need to check the teeth on the clutch plates. Junior may have lost his teeth. Time to call the tooth fairy?
If Im barking up the wrong tree forgive me ......I know nothing about bikes :dunno_black:
You might know more if it were upside down?
I have spare clutch baskets. if that's all it is - great. If iots the gears - well, that remains to be seen. I have donor motors or I'll fix up the spare 2006 engine and to a total clean up, rebuild and rewiring on Junior.
Open to more suggestions and anyone wanting to come over and help me.
I think I'll either drain the oil from Junior or take Phenix for a ride to the gym.
OK. Decided to dig further.
This looks clean:
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01746a.jpg)
Should this push in and out 3/4 inch? I didn't think the shift lever did that. Although he did shift just fine before I took the cover off. So what gives?
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01748a.jpg) (http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01749a.jpg)
I think I'll quit for the night. Not sure what is next. :dunno_black:
I would take the clutch basket off and take it apart and look at the clutch plates, when i had my clutch problems i didn't think the clutch plates were bad and after i took the whole basket apart i could see that they were all burnt, granted my clutch basket had a bolt that snapped in half. I dont think the shift lever is suppose to do that. (move that much)
As I recall, the shift level should not move in and out at all. Something is amiss in Junior's transmission. It's also odd that you hear a clank when you turn the engine by hand. Could be something bad in the bottom end. You could drop the oil pan and check for debris there too.
The clutch worked fine. The engine ran with normal power. The funny sounds when hand turning the engine appeared to come from the rear - transmission area. Engine actually turns real nice by hand. Very smooth operation.
When cranked by hand, it was normal. I did a small crank backwards to get the piston at the bottom to see with the spy cam. That's when I hear this unusual grinding/scraping sound from the tranny area.
More I am thinking the transmission. It started at a down shift at high RPM. Bike ran all the way home. Started fine at the ferry and after the ferry ride. No loss of power, no stalling, no smoke. Normal idling.
Just this incredibly loud clacking, banging and metal hitting metal sound. It kept getting worse as I got closer to home.
Interesting that a look inside the cylinders with a spy cam shows nice, clean pistons. No metal fragments or debris in them at all. If the engine blew a valve, wouldn't there be loss of power or smoke? Wouldn't I see odd stuff when peering through the spark plug hole with the spy cam?
Thinking about it and that it happened on a down shift with no loss of engine power or acceleration, me thinks I am gonna hafta crack open the motor. I do have 2 1989 engines with good bottom ends and low compression. I can take the tran out of one of those (one has that bad pin for the timing thingy - good candidate to cannibalize).
I want to take a break but I am so tempted to pull the engine and crack it open. Anybody want to help?
Any more thoughts on this?
I guess I could disassemble Junior and do a total clean-up. Maybe rewire with a 2006+ harness and switch to newer carbs? I'll clean up an area of the Cave for Junior's parts.
Quote from: adidasguy on April 28, 2012, 08:31:05 PM
The clutch worked fine. The engine ran with normal power. The funny sounds when hand turning the engine appeared to come from the rear - transmission area. Engine actually turns real nice by hand. Very smooth operation.
When cranked by hand, it was normal. I did a small crank backwards to get the piston at the bottom to see with the spy cam. That's when I hear this unusual grinding/scraping sound from the tranny area.
More I am thinking the transmission. It started at a down shift at high RPM. Bike ran all the way home. Started fine at the ferry and after the ferry ride. No loss of power, no stalling, no smoke. Normal idling.
Just this incredibly loud clacking, banging and metal hitting metal sound. It kept getting worse as I got closer to home.
Interesting that a look inside the cylinders with a spy cam shows nice, clean pistons. No metal fragments or debris in them at all. If the engine blew a valve, wouldn't there be loss of power or smoke? Wouldn't I see odd stuff when peering through the spark plug hole with the spy cam?
Thinking about it and that it happened on a down shift with no loss of engine power or acceleration, me thinks I am gonna hafta crack open the motor. I do have 2 1989 engines with good bottom ends and low compression. I can take the tran out of one of those (one has that bad pin for the timing thingy - good candidate to cannibalize).
I want to take a break but I am so tempted to pull the engine and crack it open. Anybody want to help?
Any more thoughts on this?
I guess I could disassemble Junior and do a total clean-up. Maybe rewire with a 2006+ harness and switch to newer carbs? I'll clean up an area of the Cave for Junior's parts.
After hearing more i also think that it would be the trans, too bad you dont have a cabin in Northern Minn, i would stop over and help being that i have 3 days off after today.
Come here to Seattle for a few days! I have a spare bedroom. Extra bike. Extra helmet.
I wish, i got to go down and see my wife and kid, and got to drive down to my parents house haven't been there in a month, i've been working for a week straight, and 12 hours days on the weekends, one got a week left of school tho, so that will be nice.
Ok, I'm in for bad tranny day tomorrow. We can swap the bottom ends and be done with it. No need to crack the case, just swap direct. New gaskets on the top end and we are right as rain.
1-3pm?
Ouchies Adidas...
Maybe try putting him on the center stand and just running through the gears a few times to see if you hear the sound again?
Scotty is the man! :bowdown:
If I were closer, I'd be there as well. I do agree though - swap bottom ends (is the cam chain rivet type or clip?) and call it a day. Rebuild Juniors motor at your convenience.
I've got an 89 with a good bottom. Junior's top is excellent. Here were the plugs after I got home. I removed the carbs in prep for engine removal and the intakes look nice. The exhaust side looks good, too. A little whitish on the valves and both sides match.
I feel it is the tranny. That damned down shift - I heard it happen. What else could it be? Probably chipped a gear tooth then with the additional 3 miles riding, things just kept getting more chewed up in the tran.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01756a.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01751a.jpg)
Sorry Adidas, long night........but have you drained the oil yet? If there's a small magnet on the drain plug, check it for metal. Then I would go with Bomb: pull the pan and see what's hiding in there.
Quote from: Big Rich on April 29, 2012, 01:31:04 AM
Sorry Adidas, long night........but have you drained the oil yet? If there's a small magnet on the drain plug, check it for metal. Then I would go with Bomb: pull the pan and see what's hiding in there.
The wrong tree is being barked at.
Check for goats or stalwarts syndrome. The transmission is like an anvil in strength.
Oh, and don't run it anymore, or turn the drivetrain. If I'm right, you're hurting things when you do.
Oil drained. Looked old, but no metal.
By the sounds it appears tran.
I do plan to take of stator cover just to check everything out.
Doubt goats. I have a charging LED and it indicated full charging all the time. So no stator damage.
Carbs off. Oil drained. Right side off. So he's not going to be turning over for while.
Left cover will come off tomorrow. I don't think goats. But while tearing into the engine, I might as well check everything to rule out various possibilities.
Quote from: Big Rich on April 29, 2012, 01:31:04 AM
Sorry Adidas, long night........but have you drained the oil yet? If there's a small magnet on the drain plug, check it for metal. Then I would go with Bomb: pull the pan and see what's hiding in there.
I'll drag a neodymium magnet through the oil and see if anything gets picked up.
I'm really thinking of keeping Junior out of service for as couple months to do a complete clean of every part, nut and bolt. Put him back together like new --- like Phenix. maybe even put on that OEM "E" model fairing that is in the box for a year.
my money is on something bent or broken in the shift assembly. Maybe a broken spring or dog that is colliding with parts in the tranny. Take that thing apart and find out!
scottychop came over. We started to fix up the spare 89 engine. Plan is to put that in then open up Juniors motor and see the damage. I'll add more pictures shortly. Tired after a day of wrenching.
>:( This is no good, just saw this!
Hope you get it all sorted out! :thumb:
My guess: bent fork allowing one of the dogs to partially engage a gear.
Did it run ok in all gears? Did the noise go away when in one of them?
Have fun with the rebuild!
It did seem to go through all gears, though I rode slow back home and maybe never went into 6th.
The noise kept getting louder as I got home.
Everything in the engine part checks out just fine. I expected to see something inside the cylinders but the spy cam showed all was clean and dry. The spark plugs we identical. Looking in at the intake and exhaust valves they look good and the same on both sides. idled fine. No loss of power but seemed to be slipping a little. That is, the engine revved fine with good power but gears seems to slip a little. I do admit I did not force it - I rode home easy.
Noise in all gears and when idling.
I guess no way to look at the transmission without cracking open the engine? No small opening anywhere for a spy cam?
If I recall, you can see part of a gear or two through oil pan.......but I might be thinking of a different motor too.
If you can see the gearbox, it won't be much of it.
(I know --- pictures)
We've got the top and jugs off the spare motor. Plan on better pistons and jugs I got from a known better motor. Got 3 spare heads. Scotty wants to use the one the spare motor had. I'm looking at one of the extras that I bought which was from a good engine. We'll have to examine all of them closely over some beers. Spare engine had reported bad compression by the PO so new pistons and jugs are a good idea, though we never did do a compression test on it. We also realized we should have thoroughly cleaned it before taking it apart.
Junior was a great engine. I think it best to leave head and jugs & stiff as is. Take motor out, remove oil pan and see what I can of the tranny. I'm certain that's where it is.
Tonight I might pull the engine from Junior. If I do, I'll remove the oil pan and look inside.
I hope some twinners can come over this weekend. Would be nice to put an engine back in Junior. I plan on wrenching - I want Junior to come back from the dead.
Latest thought: If using the original head from the spare engine (reported low compression but never tested it), the exhaust cam had a chipped spot on the tach gear. I don't like chipped anything except chipped beef and potato chips.
1. I could use that head and cam and risk it for the tach gear hoping it wouldn't chip off any more (yes, photos will come)
2. Use that head, block off the tack gear and go with a newer electronic tach (which I have)
3. Use the head and swap the exhaust cam with one with a good gear (though I feel with an old engine head, the cams have worn to the pillow blocks so swapping cam shafts might not be the best, though would probably be fine for another 10k miles)
4. Use one of the other spare heads (pictures to come)
My instincts say it should be #2 or #4.
why not just pull juniors slugs, jugs, and head, then plop them onto a good lower?
I still think the tranny issue is totally fixable, unless you've polished any of the gears too far.
I guess i would look at the bad motor first so you know what went wrong, it might not be that big of a fix, you could just be able to swap the lowers of the motor and be done with it or just swap the trans, and be done.
Quote from: knowles on May 01, 2012, 09:03:49 PM
I guess i would look at the bad motor first so you know what went wrong, it might not be that big of a fix, you could just be able to swap the lowers of the motor and be done with it or just swap the trans, and be done.
One thing is Junior's engine was fantastic. So I really don't want to swap lowers. Right - I should try to look inside the trany. I was thinking of taking off the bottom oil pan while still on the bike to see if there was "stuff" down there and seeing if I could peer into the tranny with the spy cam. Oil cam out clean (well, old & dark after a year but no metal).
I read the instructions on the transmission. That is a 4 wrench out of 5 for difficulty in the Haynes book. I have no idea what a 5 wrench job would be. What would be harder than replacing the transmission?
It won't hurt to get a spare engine running. We do have a couple projects, never hurts to have a spare running engine; and if I have another running engine I have all the parts to make another bike (like does anyone really need 5 GS500's?)
Then, swapping lowers is no different that putting good jugs and a head on the spare motor. (I have too many spare parts).
There is the other motor with the damaged indexing pin for the timing rotor which I'll part out and use tran parts for Junior's motor.
Anyone have a good idea how to hold/mount/manipulate a motor when working on it?
I feel depression coming on me. Junior was my favorite and I killed him by down shifting at too high an RPM (I think).
What the hell is this? Found it in the sump filter. (Took off the bottom pan out of curiosity)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01966.jpg)
I think I'll take off the oil filter and see what's in there.
Here are some pictures in the tranny. Somehow the groves on some gears does not look right. I'll admit I'm not sure what I'm looking at. Anyone tell me what all this means or happens to be?
? There is a bolt on a shaft in the back of the engine. No one seems to ever mention that. If I pull off that bolt, can I see into the tran from the top? What's that bolt for?
(Ignore date on pictures. I just now got around to setting the cliock on the spy cam.)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0648061J.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0644351J.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0644201J.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0643321J.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0642571J.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0651491J.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0650561J.jpg)
More pictures..... And I added more at the end
Could I have a damaged oil pump???
Oil after soaking through shop towel and pig-mat. Does not look good....
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01971a.jpg)
Oil filter...not good...
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01974a.jpg)
Looking into the oil pump - the center hole where the filter goes. This has strange scraping and a pile-up of some kind of stuff. Anyone know what this is I'm looking at? I'm not sure what I'm seeing since I haven't taken apart the bottom of a motor. Could this be a damaged oil pump?
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0112061J.jpg)
The other port in the oil filter area. I assume this is oil coming from the engine so here's what shows in that hole:
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0110581J.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/0111161J.jpg)
OK - here's crap from the oil in the oil pan...
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01977a.jpg)
And here's the oil pan. another piece of that brown plastic here and lots of metal crap.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01976a.jpg)
Latest late night update.
The metal crap IS NOT MAGNETIC!
A neodymium magnet did not attract the metal fragments.
What part of an engine is not attracted to a magnet? All I can think of is a piston.
Is the underside of a piston damaged?
If so, then replacing the piston should fix it. Down shifting stressed a piston? Could what I though of as cam noise really have been a piston starting to fall apart on the under side?
I'm guessing the oil filter and the sump screen caught all the crap. But what are the plastic bits?
Damn that's a mess of metal. Yeah a bike can run (not for long) with damaged pistons. Eventually the piston would destroy itself but yeah you caught it
Quote from: slipperymongoose on May 02, 2012, 02:04:07 AM
Damn that's a mess of metal. Yeah a bike can run (not for long) with damaged pistons. Eventually the piston would destroy itself but yeah you caught it
Boy I hope you are right. I would hate to have to crack open the case to get at the transmission.
I think I'll temporarily put the covers back on. Clean the outside of the engine so no dirt gets in when I (hopefully with help) take off the head and jugs to replace the jugs and pistons.
I'll still fix up the spare engine - we do need it for projects.
If it is the piston - I feel better tonight.
and if it is, would a good plan be:
1. Clean outside of engine so crap won't fall in
2. Pull head and jugs and both pistons
3. Put on new pistons and jugs (I have a matched set that all came from the same engine)
4. Replace any other seals or just replace them so they are new
5. Run for half hour or so to get metal crap into the oil filter
6. Change oil
7. Run a while
8. Change oil again in another hour of running to be sure crap is out of the engine
9. Probably change oil one more time after 100 miles (really, KM since his speedo is in KM because Junior is Canadian)
I still wonder what the plastic bits are. Any idea?
Are they flexible, but snap if you fold them? I want to guess some original gasket material (which would be fiber based).
That is a lit of metal shavings........being non-magnetic, I would say aluminum shavings. And since you are thinking transmission problems, I would guess the inside of the case got chewed up a little. But that's still a guess.
What rich said, alloy could be case, piston, or rod.
Plastic is brittle. Here's a cross sectional view.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01979.jpg)
One other interesting thing: after removing the valve cover, oil and side cover... i did press the starter for 5 seconds while scottychop was here. There was no clunking like there was when the engine was together and running. There were maybe 2 mild thuds.
Thinking on that, if the transmission were toast and making noise when really running, shouldn't there be noise when cranking?
If a piston, would noise go away if there were no spark plugs? The pistons DID go up and down when manually cranking when I checked the timing and wanted photos inside the cylinder with the piston at the bottom. If the piston was starting to fall apart, would this make sense or sound like what to expect?
How many miles are on it? Looking at the gears. Your tooth wear is even which is good, I wouldn't worry just get all the metal out, go new slugs, small ends, barrels in good nick and yeah top end. Just pray no metal has made its way into the crank or big ends or journals.
Hmmmm......plastic in the motor.......what about the original epoxy used on the stator? It looks like plastic after it gets old and thru some heat cycles.
Remember though, I've never touched a GS500. So this isn't the gospel.
About 34k KM on the clock (Canadian so KM not miles). He's a 1992 model.
Since it happened on a down shift and the engine momentarily died until clutch released, I thought transmission. It seems a damaged piston due to the stress of engine braking is a possibility.
Big does suggest various possibilities. I suppose it might be wise to pull the head and jugs. if it is a piston, then it can be repaired in the frame. If not, it wouldn't hurt the check them anyway.
Any more ideas based on my previous post and still what is the plastic?
as a PS: I went no more than 10 miles after the problem first appeared at that down shift. Noise kept getting louder the longer I rode to get home.
PS. PS.: As I recall, the noise occurred when in neutral or the clutch pulled in. Seems more related to engine RPM. The transmission did shift through the gears - at least through 5th. I don't think I went fast enough to get into 6th. Oh, wait - I did get into 6th when the problem first occurred. So it did shift through the gears OK. Noise with clutch in or in neutral.
Plastic identified - yes it was epoxy from the magnet rotor as Big suggested.
However - I don't have any pet goats.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01980a.jpg)
With that much metal in the oil pan, I think you have something that's gone all wrong in the bottom end. I'm pretty sure you will find it if you crack the case open and have a good look. My guess is that it's time for a new bottom end for Junior.
I bet you spun a bearing in a bad way.
I'm not thinking piston wear because you said it had normal power, and 10mi on a piston with unusual wear is ususally more than enough to destroy it.
Or your oil pump killed itself, its hard to tell without looking at it. :dunno_black:
Just a guess from far away.
Sorry to hear that! But im sure he will get back on track soon!
Ride Safely!
Mabrio
My guess is that the epoxy bits came off the rotor first. They would have then made their way to the sump/pump and plugged things up, reducing oil flow. The reduced oil flow would have then caused the rest of the carnage.
Question is, why would the epoxy have come off of the rotor in the first place?
Arm chair mechanic...so could be totally off base...
But you mentioned the crank case was smokin' hot when you stopped...I'm assuming this was after the "klunk"?? and I'm with cobalta70, the plastic probably caused the intake for the oil pump to be blocked or partially blocked...little to no oil circulation would cause extreme friction issues (there's your heat)...then the break down of metal bits is from tolerances tightening due to the heat...metal could be bearings (brass & lead), oil pump, casing from journals (block is aluminum isn't it?) and the play on your shift shaft is a little concerning...may just be a clip that's now bent or fell off, but there is probably a problem in there as well...but my guess is bottom end problems like a spun bearing.
You may need to rebuild the spare engine to go into Junior, then crack open Junior's engine case to see if it is salvageable...and all this at only 34,000kms ~ 21,000miles on the clock? pretty early...crappy luck! :confused:
Later.
I'm still with you on the original plan of swapping bottom ends, or the whole motor for the spare. You've got something chewed up inside that will never be clean enough to run without a total inspection. My first, but reaction was oil pump. Metal shavings could be just about anything down in the bottom end.
1. Rebuild the donor motor.
2. Ride like the wind.
3. Slowly and methodically open up motor number one and learn a bunch!
Pulled engine out of Junior. Now with 3 or 4 engines of parts all over the place I've reached the limit of a one man job. Have to wait for an extra set of hands to put something together. I know you should have 2 people to put a head on so the pistons go in the jugs. Plus I need an expert to advise me.
I'll now tidy up this weekend. Maybe try to take the head off of Junior to see if the pistons were what broke.
Here's the mess as it now sits.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01983a.jpg)
damn :cry:
Wish I could help
What would do cods?
Quote from: slipperymongoose on May 05, 2012, 02:14:21 AM
What would do cods?
Well Im not absolutely fkn useless slips?
Suppose you could do tge camera work
Quote from: slipperymongoose on May 05, 2012, 06:29:43 AM
Suppose you could do tge camera work
fark you. Don't bother calling me next time you need a hand then :flipoff:
Lol :2guns: :2guns:
Anyone can fly in to help. I have a spare bedroom and lots of parts you can take home.
Seems I have identified the problem.
This bolt/gear should not move (other than rotating).
It might be why Junior was slowly making more noise and just went out on a down shift. So seems tran is OK and pistons are fine.
Please watch the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atq4nKfh7kg
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01988a.jpg)
From what I can gather from looking at my haynes manual that is your balancer shaft. And in the book it doesnt say anything about play in the shaft. So bad news is that its a block split to get at it, as for the culprit it may be your inner or outer driven gears something has gone wrong there possibly just looking at the exploded view in the haynes manual and guessing a bit. Its a bit hard to diagnose half way round the world and in a different hemisphere lol.
Something doesn't look right......
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01993a.jpg)
At least it wasn't anything I did. I was going bad for a while and just happened to occur at the time I did the downshift.
Remembering engine did idle fine and all gears worked...... would we have ever thought of this?
Wouldn't it be sweet if I could slide out the old bearing and slip a new one in without cracking open the case?
Probably not a good idea. No doubt the shaft of the counter balancer is scored and the oil port might be plugged. Metal fragments are probably the bearing and the inner gear I'm sure was grinding the inside of the engine case (because of spinning out of position).
I feel really good knowing that I didn't kill Junior. :woohoo:
I was depressed all week wondering if I did it.
Now to clean up and make a "clean area" for assembling a new engine.
Here are his pistons and top end. Lots of build up but he ran really great. I think cleaning it using the jugs, pistons and top would be fitting for Junior. He should keep part of his engine. The spark plugs showed he was running really well so keeping the same carbs and top end would seem appropriate.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01985a.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01986a.jpg)
Holy "S"!. That is incredible. Great job getting him apart this far. I cannot believe the play in that thing. Time to split the cases...
Some people have taken that big hunk of balancer out of there to help save weight. Usually guys trying to build fast revs on the race course though.
Scott
Reading instructions on splitting an engine is something I fear doing by myself for the first time. So I'll use what should be a good 1989 bottom end with Juniors top. I know Junior's top is good. That eliminates the potential problem of jugs & pistons I bought in the event of any problems.
NOTE TO SELF: If the engine still has oil in it, do not tip it over! :nono:
Thank god I bought the big box of "Pig Mats".
Bike Cave floor will get a thorough cleaning once Junior is back together.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01997a.jpg)
Got spare bottom end on a Sears lift so I can drain the oil. Filter is hanging there so it will drain and I can see if anything is in it.
NOTE TO SELF: Always scrub an engine spotlessly clean before taking it apart. Keeps dirt from falling in.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC01999a.jpg)
I wish my gs wasn't picked up yet, and I didn't live down the street.
I would have totally let you swap motors before it was picked up by the ins company.
I didn't kill Junior - he had a heart attack!
I think this makes it pretty clear I did not kill Junior. This was going on for a long time. Who would have thought of checking the balancer sleeve bearing and spacer? I wonder if the other end is bad or if just this end. It would be interesting if a new sleeve and bearing could be slipped in. Probably other oil ports might be plugged up.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1760a.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1755a.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1762a.jpg)
Time to remove the balancer, fill in the oil channels going to it, and get the crank balanced!
:thumb:
+1 on that.
Nailed it.
And, let me be the first to say,
jeeze adidasguy, if you just read up on racers corner, you'd know to keep an eye on the counterbalancer bearings.
:nono:
Just kidding. I hope junior comes back to life soon!
I say the bottom end is junk. If one oil port is blocked, probably others. That "bearing" (I use the term loosely) is why he ran hot. I doubt a new bearing could go in there as probably the opening for it got worn down. The jugs and top end look good and well oiled.
Maybe we need a tutorial on the difference between cam shaft noise and a balancer going bad. No one thought anything of Junior's noise other than usual GS500 cam shaft banging. I guess when doing an oil change, drop the oil pan to look for metal and run some oil through a paper towel (as a filter) to see if there is metal in it.
What happens when your bike dies
The 7 stages of grief.
1. Denial and shock - did that on Vashon Island and the next day
2. PAIN & GUILT - did that feeling I killed Junior
3. ANGER & BARGAINING - yes, mad about the whole thing and trying to understand if anyone could have predicted it.
4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS - yes, depressed. I miss Junior. My first bike restoration. No one hanging around to help fix him or talk about it but I know I can learn to fix him. I put Phenix together all by myself. I should be able to fix an engine.
5. THE UPWARD TURN - well, I decided I'll try fixing him myself. Now how do I put on the jugs with no one to guide the pistons in? I'll figure out how. Hang the jugs with the motor on the Sears lift. Raise the bottom while guiding the pistons in? Worth a try!
6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH - hopefully this weekend
7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE - hoping he works after I attempt to put an engine back together and not knowing the true condition of the new bottom end.
I need to work through fixing Junior. He was my first bike restoration. Laying low on the parts whoring until Junior fixed. Need to spend time on him rather than selling parts. Also want to do oil changes on all bikes and clean up the Bike Cave.
one thing to add to your tool kit if you don't already have one is a mechanic's stethoscope. That would have told you right away whether the noise was coming from the cams or the balance shaft.
i've used mine to help track down faulty injectors, coil packs, etc.
If you don't have one a screwdriver is a pretty good substitute.
Well,
Adidas if I had money I would fly up there and help ya! I've got a week off school. But no money! oh well, hope Junior feels better soon Flick is getting itchy for his new rear tire so I better get going.
Mary
I think I'm better with a spare set of jugs & pistons. The spare still shows some cross hatching on the cylinder walls - which is good. The head valves are about 0.035 on the intake and 0.055 on the exhaust.
I believe the easiest and fastest way to get an engine running is to use the spare jugs & head. Even the cam seats on Junior feel gritty from the metal shavings. Rather than try to clean it now, use the spares. Clean his parts up later.
Junior's cylinders look like this. Not that good.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC02027a.jpg)
I wouldn't expect there to be any crosshatching left given how many miles Junior had.
Does your fingernail catch on those vertical scratches?
Either way - might as well use the lowest milage/best condition jugs you got.
I can feel them with my fingernails.
This head looks good. Unfortunately there are two chips on the fins (from shipping). I have the pieces so could glue back on or just touch up with black paint.
I have the pistons that went with this head. They are marked left & right. Think this head looks better?
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1766a.jpg)
Just a hint/tip. If you re use your rings don't scrape the carbon off the tops of the pistons. Mate of mine who builds engines told me that. If you scrape or clean it off and re use the rings it will blow smoke. However if you use new rings your fine clean the pistons up. Just remember don't line your ring gaps up.
Quote from: slipperymongoose on May 10, 2012, 05:48:21 AM
Just remember don't line your ring gaps up.
I wonder if that is why some engines have low compression? They rework the top end and don't get the rings correct?
I was just noticing what you mentioned in the Haynes manual last night. Good reminder!
I guess cleaning off pistons you get carbon crap in the rings then they don't seat well?
I wonder if the rings can rotate with time, resulting in low compression the closer they are to being lined up? I have the 2 1989 engines that were reported to have low compression. I wonder if that could be the reason? One is not taken apart, the other already is to use the bottom for Junior. When I take the other apart, I'll look at the rings before I touch them and see what the alignment is.
If you set them 90deg apart from each other they should be alright. I can't imagine them moving since there only doing an up and down motion but possibly who knows?
ok, so why we are on the subject...i tore apart my motor as well bc i heard the same noise you were talking about and i found that the left side crankshaft balancer bearing was in three pieces...now before i go ordering that bearing i need to know wether or not i have to split the case to replace this bearing?
Quote from: adam89 on May 11, 2012, 09:36:58 AM
ok, so why we are on the subject...i tore apart my motor as well bc i heard the same noise you were talking about and i found that the left side crankshaft balancer bearing was in three pieces...now before i go ordering that bearing i need to know wether or not i have to split the case to replace this bearing?
I can't answer that. I'm replacing the bottom end.
Later I'll crack the case when time permits. I think someone ,opened the case at one time. Put RTV on the surface before closing up. RTV plugged up the oil port for that bearing.
Yes Adam you'll have to split according to the Haynes manual.
Is there anything the West Seattle GS500 Club can not do? In 6 hours we built a new engine from parts of 4 different engines. It works!
Junior is ALIVE!
http://youtu.be/9GJvzwadV18
11:30am: We have a head.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1767a.jpg)
11:40am: We have a body
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1768a.jpg)
11:50am: jmill and bluesmudge arrive for the operation.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1771a.jpg)
(Slight break for Pizza and Hot Wings.)
2:20pm: The operation is midway through. The transplanted parts are working. No signs of rejection. Timing and valves now getting adjusted.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1778a.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1780a.jpg)
4:00pm: The new heart for Junior is ready to be installed.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1781a.jpg)
5:30pm: The engine WORKS!
Junior is ALIVE!
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1787a.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1786a.jpg)
Great success! I was amazed how effortlessly we created an engine out of parts that had never met before. Almost no issues other than the quick problem with the exhaust header bolt.
Is that a postie bike I see in the background? :icon_lol:
Very nice!!!
and Very lucky considering my crap luck trying to do the same with my 2 extra motors. hahaha
There are minor running issues. I think all that needs to wait until all these parts start working together. There might be minor issues or organ rejection. A little living, riding and cleaning should do wonders for recuperative therapy.
Once he gets 100km on the clock, we can take a second look at the carbs, valves, plugs and make sure everything is still tight.
I got the rest of the frame on. Tidied up some wiring. Ran him some more. Connected up the throttle and choke cables. All that's left is the tank and belly pan.
Saturday will be a day of cleaning up the Cave, cleaning Junior and test riding.
I am so amazed that we did this in 6 hours. Unbelievable! And that frankenstein of a motor ran the first time we hit the starter!
You guys were amazing today. and you both got a hit of karma korn, too!
Quote from: codajastal on May 11, 2012, 08:47:46 PM
Is that a postie bike I see in the background? :icon_lol:
You mean the TS-185? (Thumper) Or Austin's 110 parked next to James' newly painted white GS500? (That's a fun little bike!)
Tomb: 4 motors of parts increases the odds of making one working motor. 2 motors worth of parts might not be enough :cookoo: :bs:
hahahaha!
Well actually!
2 complete motors as far as parts go.
But total parts from 3 different engines.
You probably totally avoided my biggest problems.
Which were the cam shafts.
the 95 cylinder head went on the 89.
but the 94 cam shafts that worked fine in my 94 bottom with 95 top end didnt wanna work right in the 89.
but the 89 bottom and cylinders, with the 95 head, & the 89 cam shafts worked better.
So you might wanna just pay attention to top end noises for a little while.
Though im sure you know that. hahaha :thumb:
Good job getting it all together tho! :thumb:
If I lived out that way and helped, cut that time almost in half for how many times I've done mine alone. hahahaha :thumb:
oh the horror!!
Quote from: adidasguy on May 11, 2012, 11:12:57 PM
You mean the TS-185? (Thumper) Or Austin's 110 parked next to James' newly painted white GS500? (That's a fun little bike!)
Yes Austins CT110 Great bikes that go forever :icon_lol: I have 3 of them.
Yesterday was a great day for work. i can't believe how fast we were able to get everything going. I thought it was great when all three of us were standing above the bike with none of the controls hooked up, manipulating it all directly on the bike. It even LOOOKED like open heart surgery :thumb:
Congrats on the transplant... nice to see the patient back on his feet :D
Griff
Quote from: adidasguy on May 11, 2012, 06:50:17 PM
Is there anything the West Seattle GS500 Club can not do? In 6 hours we built a new engine from parts of 4 different engines. It works!
Junior is ALIVE!
Muahahah.. frankenGS !
Nice!! :)
.. wish there was a gs club like that in the LA area.. sniff...
Congrats!
Gotta hand it to you Adaidas...You did it again. Not only did you have a bike rise from the ashes, but you fixed junior.
If this same thing happened to me, I would have probably called it a "blown engine", sold it on CL as a "parts bike", and bought a new one.
Quote from: scottychop on May 12, 2012, 06:13:50 PM
Congrats!
Thank you for getting things started. It really got me going when you helped take apart Juniors bad engine. Too bad you weren't available to help with the transplant.
I got Junior cleaned up tonight. Still a little to do getting all the parts back on (belly pan, hugger, etc.). I did get him on the street. Rides much MUCH quieter than before. Occasional run-away throttle. That can be dealt with. I'll re-check everything after another 50 miles or so. I think everything needs to get used to running. It may have been 2 years since the engine bottom ran. Runs smooth and shifts really nice.
I hope everyone clicked the link to see the video.
Here it is again:
http://youtu.be/9GJvzwadV18
That's awesome news Adidas - congrats!
Well done man!
And Junior says "I'm Back!"
Junior got cleaned up. Posed for pictures then took a test ride on Vashon Island.
(Sorry to people expecting parts: I had to ride today rather than pack parts. They'll be a day late. I hope you understand.)
A different look without the belly pan. I like it. It may go back on in a week or so. I left it off to look for oil leaks and be able to get exhaust off when I recheck everything after a tank of gas (you know, head bolt torque, valves, etc.) I figure this "frankenstein" engine needs to go through a normal new engine break-in for all parts to work together.
Thanks again, guys, for all your help. :thumb: :woohoo:
He runs well. Never had to adjust the clutch. Just put the clutch cover back on as before and it works perfect! I miss the cam shaft clatter (aka counter balance bearing going out clanking :cookoo: ). Now I can hear what the exhaust really sounds like! Sweet!
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/GS500/DSC02057a.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/GS500/DSC02068a.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/GS500/DSC02061a.jpg)
Quote from: adidasguy on April 28, 2012, 08:31:05 PM
The clutch worked fine. The engine ran with normal power. The funny sounds when hand turning the engine appeared to come from the rear - transmission area. Engine actually turns real nice by hand. Very smooth operation.
When cranked by hand, it was normal. I did a small crank backwards to get the piston at the bottom to see with the spy cam. That's when I hear this unusual grinding/scraping sound from the tranny area.
More I am thinking the transmission. It started at a down shift at high RPM. Bike ran all the way home. Started fine at the ferry and after the ferry ride. No loss of power, no stalling, no smoke. Normal idling.
Just this incredibly loud clacking, banging and metal hitting metal sound. It kept getting worse as I got closer to home.
Interesting that a look inside the cylinders with a spy cam shows nice, clean pistons. No metal fragments or debris in them at all. If the engine blew a valve, wouldn't there be loss of power or smoke? Wouldn't I see odd stuff when peering through the spark plug hole with the spy cam?
Thinking about it and that it happened on a down shift with no loss of engine power or acceleration, me thinks I am gonna hafta crack open the motor. I do have 2 1989 engines with good bottom ends and low compression. I can take the tran out of one of those (one has that bad pin for the timing thingy - good candidate to cannibalize).
I want to take a break but I am so tempted to pull the engine and crack it open. Anybody want to help?
Any more thoughts on this?
I guess I could disassemble Junior and do a total clean-up. Maybe rewire with a 2006+ harness and switch to newer carbs? I'll clean up an area of the Cave for Junior's parts.
dig thru trans. problem lies there i believe, check the shifter dogs. ( shifter forks among other things, something in there is amiss
Quote from: Phil B on May 12, 2012, 06:03:05 PM
Quote from: adidasguy on May 11, 2012, 06:50:17 PM
Is there anything the West Seattle GS500 Club can not do? In 6 hours we built a new engine from parts of 4 different engines. It works!
Junior is ALIVE!
Muahahah.. frankenGS !
Nice!! :)
.. wish there was a gs club like that in the LA area.. sniff...
thats what i called my first gs ( of 4) called it frankenbike
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on May 14, 2012, 12:58:47 AM
dig thru trans. problem lies there i believe, check the shifter dogs. ( shifter forks among other things, something in there is amiss
You missed a few postings. It is the counter balance bearing.
Engine ran fine. Tran shifted through all gears just fine.
This used to be a counter balance bearing:
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1762a.jpg)
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/GS500/DSC02057a.jpg)
Hey Addidasguy... where did you get that Suzuki "S" emblem for the contact cover? Looks great.
from chuck81.
I don't know if he has any more. Contact him and see his for sale threads on them.
I love it! He has the matching one for the left side. :thumb:
#5206
Well, he's been doing fine.
There is an issue of run away throttle when hot. Slipping the clutch would being it back down.
So I decided it is finally time to fix it. He didn't do it before the engine swap. The carbs were not touched in the engine swap.
When hot, a blip of the throttle and it goes up to 5k RPM. Slip the clutch (or block the air box when on center stand -- on center stand so slipping clutch would do nothing because rear wheel not on the ground) and it comes back down.
I knew the manifold o-rings were hard as a rock. I replaced them last night.
That didn't seem to help much - just a little.
I can spray starter fluid all over as well as WD-40 and they do nothing at all. So, no air leaks anywhere.
I did notice the left side was running really rich. Plug had lots of carbon on it. Right side looked good. To rule out petcock vacuum line as a source of excess fuel or air leak, I pinched it off (Using a Motion Pro test tank, bypassing the petcock.). No change.
One thing I did notice when looking into the air box (filter removed) was the right slide bounced up & down. The left slide was steady. In a run-away situation, both slides were down - not stuck up.
Seals on the caps looked ON. Removed caps and diaphragms looked OK as well.
Sort of at a loss. Removed carbs and they looked OK. Mixture screws were out like 4-1/2 turns. That seems excessive.
I have to add again that I did not have the problem until the engines were swapped after the bearing went out.
What I plan to try:
1. Mixture screws back to 3-1/2 turns
2. Swap slides & diaphragms to see if one is bad. If issues swap between sides, then there is the problem.
3. Maybe put in new jets since I have spares, it can't hurt.
4. Maybe put a rebuild kit in both sides - again that can't hurt.
I suppose a valve adjustment would be in order. The engine was built up and valves checked when assembled. They may have seated in and now need adjustment.
When right plug pulled, engine dies. When left plug pulled, engine slows down a little.
Any other ideas for a run-away throttle? It is not a "hanging" - it really does run away some times.
I have a spare set of carbs that were rebuilt months ago. They don't work so I have to re-check them. They were never used as carbs were not Trey's problem when he was running on one cylinder. But I should get this spare set working anyway.
For fun I could put on newer 3-jet carbs and see what happens. I do have some of those on the shelf. Its not like I am without a running bike.
Any thoughts on a run-away throttle when there are no longer any air leaks (manifold o-rings replaced) and only happens when bike is hot?
Sounds like an intermittent vacuum leak on the left side. Try capping off the vacuum tube port completely with one of those caps from the carb sync ports. If nothing else, at least it could rule it out.
I don't think your slides or diaphragms should be a problem since you didn't take your carbs apart when you swapped, but I suppose it doesn't hurt to swap them. The mixture screws do seem to be too far out. That could be due to the need for more fuel at idle due to the vacuum leak.
#5207
It only happens when hot then happens a lot. Replacing the manifold o-rings helped (they were hard and flat). Spraying crap in that area did kill the engine before replacing them. I would guess dying from being too rich with junk leaking in.
It might be good to re-torque the head bolts when checking the valves. It is a newly assembled engine. Something is opening up when hot.
I have lots of options:
1. Carefully check and replace some parts in existing carbs
2. Figure out why the spare set of rebuilt carbs do not work
3. Take carbs out of Trey and fix Trey later. His carbs are great.
4. Try another spare set of carbs
5. Try 04+ carbs as I have some taken off of running bikes.
6. Possible a defective carb sync cap - they're old, originals so I'll replace them and do a carb sync.
The carbs have been sprayed down like crazy with no effect (after o-rings on manifolds replaced) I now have a very well WD40 lubricated outside of the engine and carbs.
sounds a lot like the enrichment system has a problem? go over the sliders and stuff and see if they are leaking or sticking or whatever? just a guess
#5209
Tonight we swapped carbs. No change.
Carb boots with new o-rings no change.
Spraying the crap out of everything everywhere - no change.
Did valve adjustment. Left side was tight on exhaust and loose on intake. Right side OK.
So we've ruled out carbs, vacuum leaks, plugs, valve shims.
Only other discovery was compression: 100psi on left. 115 psi on right. Both are low.
Not sure what to do. I think I may adjust things to run as best as possible - which he does run well. Then wait until winter to redo piston rings and check the valves in the head. Possible there is a bad valve or something else. It is the engine we built from 4 engines in 6 hours. So maybe the jugs need honing and the pistons could use new rings.
Unless there are some good theories of what's causing the run away throttle, I'll live with it until winter.
Remember that we've ruled out carbs (replaced them) and any vacuum leaks.
Quote from: adidasguy on May 14, 2012, 10:11:31 AM
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on May 14, 2012, 12:58:47 AM
dig thru trans. problem lies there i believe, check the shifter dogs. ( shifter forks among other things, something in there is amiss
oye spun bearing for the lose Eh?, we blew up a backpack blower @ pawnshop. for giggles. it was ugly. and no one would buy it, hell no one would take it, so i got it to ventilate the crankcase , fire = good ratings as a youtuber once said
You missed a few postings. It is the counter balance bearing.
Engine ran fine. Tran shifted through all gears just fine.
This used to be a counter balance bearing:
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/IMGP1762a.jpg)
#5212
Not sure why you quoted that old posting with no new comments.
Anyway, that was history. New motor was built.
Now back to the problem...
1. Not carbs (swapped a spare set)
2. Not vacuum leak (sprayed the sheit out of everything)
3. Intake manifold o-rings were replaced as those were bad (flat and hard)
4. Not gas
5. Not spark plugs
6. Carb slides are not sticking up - they drop down freely
7. Valve shims are OK and were re-checked.
8. Throttle cable has ample play and the carbs close down -- that is evereything springs back closed when throttle released.
Engine can do run away throttle when hot. ONLY when hot.
Could something heat up then open up when hot?
Could something get sticky when hot? However, slipping the clutch drops the RPM's down then they stay until the throttle twisted.
Other notes: did not do it with old engine using same carbs and everything else. I am thinking it is somehow related to something in the engine - but no idea what.
Only thing not absolutely correct is low compression: 100 on the left and 115 on the right.
What would close down or something when the clutch is slipped to drag the engine back down to 1300 rpm and then stay there?
There aren't a lot of parts to these GS500's. So I'm really trying to understand what can cause this before ripping into anything again.
Quote from: adidasguy on August 01, 2012, 02:42:40 PM
#5207
It only happens when hot then happens a lot. Replacing the manifold o-rings helped (they were hard and flat). Spraying crap in that area did kill the engine before replacing them. I would guess dying from being too rich with junk leaking in.
It might be good to re-torque the head bolts when checking the valves. It is a newly assembled engine. Something is opening up when hot.
I have lots of options:
1. Carefully check and replace some parts in existing carbs
2. Figure out why the spare set of rebuilt carbs do not work
3. Take carbs out of Trey and fix Trey later. His carbs are great.
4. Try another spare set of carbs
5. Try 04+ carbs as I have some taken off of running bikes.
6. Possible a defective carb sync cap - they're old, originals so I'll replace them and do a carb sync.
The carbs have been sprayed down like crazy with no effect (after o-rings on manifolds replaced) I now have a very well WD40 lubricated outside of the engine and carbs.
ok when hot check voltage output from electronics ( ignition etc) also i know youve doen this my friend, btu do it again,, take cares completely apart. all plastics and rubbers out. and dunk them ovrenight in carb cleaner. checkmix adjustment, as well as idle speed. i wish i were there, id solve it, in one hour and 3 beers.
could carb bodies be cracked somehow?
#5215
Nope. 2 sets of carbs. Same symptoms. One set was original set from Junior. Problem happened with a change of motor.
Could there be valve problems with the change in head?
Could a head have valve problems which show up when the engine is hot?
Could a valve or the head have a crack ( albeit small) that opens up when hot?
This is a head scratcher. Some things come to mind, but at this point I an grabbing at straws here:
An easy check would be exhaust bolts and/or exhaust manifold gaskets loose or not in order?
The most obvious thing here is compression is low. That tells me that there are worn out rings or valve problems. What about the head gasket? Could the head be warped against the bottom half? I think that you replaced the head. I'd start there. Do you still have your scope camera? That may help.
#5231
Since carbs and exhaust were the same (and all tightened down) it seems there could be the issue with the head or pistons due to the low compression. It was a used head and used jugs (with matching pistons from same engine).
I will re-tighten the head bolts. They may have worked lose or just the crush washers crushed down so it gets lose when hot.
I can do a compression test when cold and when hot. If readings are the same, then it would seem nothing in the head is opening up or closing down when it gets hot.
I will do a valve adjustment again just to be sure.
I will check the plugs and lean him down. Left was very rich for some reason.
I will replace the petcock as there were a couple drops of gas in the vacuum line - just in case. HOWEVER I did clamp off the vacuum line and run with a MotionPro shop tank so that would rule out gas getting into the left carb through the petcock vacuum line (which would account for it being rich - if that were the cause).
Everything has been sprayed to hell and back - no vacuum leaks anywhere.
I might put Juniors original head back on after hosing it down with cleaner to get any metal dust off of it from the initial bearing disaster.
What is odd is the symptoms:
COLD: runs OK
WARM to very warm: Still OK
HOT: Throttle hangs. Slipping clutch beings it back down.
Remember that 2 sets of carbs have exactly the same issues so that would tend to rule out the carbs.
I was thinking more about this. Could it be the head gasket? That would cause low compression and possibly vacuum leak leading to a hanging idle. You could try spraying WD-40 around the head gasket area when it hangs.
I've never heard of this happening before. I'm just speculating from a logical process of elimination.
EDIT: Looks like jester had also though head gasket as a possibility.
That's where I'm heading.
I have totally eliminated the carb issue.
as for low compression, it does match on both cylinders. A little over 120 each. A leak on one side would affect one side. however, the slow leak probably would not impact the sudden pumping of air when doing a compression test. It would affect a leak down test.
A leak on one side would make one side go lean. I do hear that hiss or pfffffttt from the right side. It sounds like under the valve cover, at the right intake.
I'm willing to give a spray around the head gasket area before removing the head. Possible there is a degrading spot. It was fine, and slowly gets worse with time.
If you end up taking the head off, I would remove the valves from the questionable side.
Then check them for even the slightest bend, and also check the valve guides.
You've probably taken valves out before, but just incase... its so easy, even without a stupid compression tool.
Get a long socket that fits nicely around the top of the valve. (bucket off)
Then you can either simply push down on it until the pins come off, or if its giving trouble that way, smack the top of the socket with a hammer. (but not enough to break anything and Be Careful!)
I've done it both ways without a single problem.
To go back in.
Put the parts back in.
Line up the pins in the middle and push down (by hand) with the same socket until they go back into place.
Need to place something below the valve to keep it from dropping out btw.
One of the members here has a video on youtube, thats how I leanred how to do it that way.
But im sure you know how or have the proper valve compression tool.
So im just wasting text, i dont care :D
Haven't removed valves yet. I don't think valves are the issue. Something weird about timing like being 1/2 a link off.
In the end:
1. Timing was off. Timing fixed changed compression from 140 to 190 psi.
2. Right intake valve has some issue. Not sure what - but the bucket did have some off scratches and scrapes on it.
Replaced the head with Junior's original one. He's running much better.
In the process, carbs were swapped to rule out that as the problem. Then Junior's carbs (which I had not opened before) were opened, cleaned and 40 pilots put in and new needle valve. mains were replaced with new ones of 122.5 (same size).
Now all back together and running pretty good. Will need to re-check valves and re-torque head bolts (normal after a head change).
With the higher compression, there is a much deeper sound from the V&H exhaust. Pretty nice!
When I check the valves and torque the head bolts, I'll probably re-check the carb float levels. probably other things because once you have the tank off, you might as well check out everything.
Tomorrow he will he a good cleaning. Right now he is covered in spilled oil and stuff. He needs a bath.
Quote from: Tombstones81 on August 20, 2012, 11:38:16 PM
If you end up taking the head off, I would remove the valves from the questionable side.
Then check them for even the slightest bend, and also check the valve guides.
You've probably taken valves out before, but just incase... its so easy, even without a stupid compression tool.
Get a long socket that fits nicely around the top of the valve. (bucket off)
Then you can either simply push down on it until the pins come off, or if its giving trouble that way, smack the top of the socket with a hammer. (but not enough to break anything and Be Careful!)
I've done it both ways without a single problem.
To go back in.
Put the parts back in.
Line up the pins in the middle and push down (by hand) with the same socket until they go back into place.
Need to place something below the valve to keep it from dropping out btw.
One of the members here has a video on youtube, thats how I leanred how to do it that way.
But im sure you know how or have the proper valve compression tool.
So im just wasting text, i dont care :D
air fitting that screws into plug hole. make sure both valves are closed, and apply pressure. valves will remain closed. even without outside support. TDC works best. less of a chamber to fill/pressurise
Quote from: adidasguy on August 24, 2012, 10:50:22 PM
In the end:
1. Timing was off. Timing fixed changed compression from 140 to 190 psi.
2. Right intake valve has some issue. Not sure what - but the bucket did have some off scratches and scrapes on it.
Replaced the head with Junior's original one. He's running much better.
In the process, carbs were swapped to rule out that as the problem. Then Junior's carbs (which I had not opened before) were opened, cleaned and 40 pilots put in and new needle valve. mains were replaced with new ones of 122.5 (same size).
Now all back together and running pretty good. Will need to re-check valves and re-torque head bolts (normal after a head change).
With the higher compression, there is a much deeper sound from the V&H exhaust. Pretty nice!
When I check the valves and torque the head bolts, I'll probably re-check the carb float levels. probably other things because once you have the tank off, you might as well check out everything.
Tomorrow he will he a good cleaning. Right now he is covered in spilled oil and stuff. He needs a bath.
Awesomesauce my friend. ride him for a few hundred miles and check plugs, but methinks it will be fine. heres an E-Beer on the house :cheers:
Gave Junior some new clothes today now that he is running good again.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC00200a.jpg)
Original new in the box fairing which I believe is a 1998. Bought from the UK over a year ago. Always wanted to see what it looked like.
Riding: cool. Smaller than the "F" fairing so the bike still feels small and sporty. I will have to change the 89 bar clips for the Euro type 1's because of clearance of the brake lever with the fairing when turning fully left.
^^^ I HATE YOU!!!! (in a good way!) hahaha
If I had that fairing kit, I would get another GS500 just for that!!!!!
Dunno what it is about that look, I just freakin LOVE IT!!!
Lucky SOB! hahahaha
VERY nice!!!!
Riding him, that fairing is like it is not there. It is very small and compact compared to the "F" fairing which is HUGE in comparison.
Junior really wants me to do twisties - even with the new (new old stock) fairing.
He still feels small and flickable.
This fairing is by TCP - obviously for Suzuki - but doesn't show in any parts catalogs like the headlight cowling and belly pan we are familiar with.
I have a used fairing by 5 stars. Basically the same design except the headlight is a single bulb where this one is separate high and low beam. Headlight housing shape is the same.
When I change the bars to the Euro type 1 I will swap the left control for one with the PASS button. I might put on the European right controls with the headlight switch. I have the fog lights. Then I could run with just the fog lights on if I needed to.
Thanks for the complements.
I never could have made Junior run again if it weren't for the West Seattle guys and everyone here on this board. I am no longer afraid to tear into the engine or carbs. This winter: open up Juniors old bottom end with the bad bearing and see what's really in there.
Yeah, the bike was Crazy nice before.
But now as far as an unmodified to hell GS500, that is probably the Nicest one I've seen!
Hence why I said if I just so happen to have one or get one in that shape Way down the road, another GS500 would certainly be in the works!
wow gorgeous.
so how did you find the timing was off,and how to fix?
Quote from: Phil B on August 26, 2012, 03:50:20 AM
wow gorgeous.
so how did you find the timing was off,and how to fix?
Werll, there is the optical illusion of the head being at an angle. Your brain wants the timing arrow to point forward - not down at about a 15* angle which is what is required to be level with the top of the head. Also the diagrams have the head horizontal, not at the angle it really is at. So your brain wants it horizontal. Then, the chain will stretch when the CCT is installed. That will make the cams go counterclockwise (backwards) a little. add to that the timing rotor can shift a little (a couple degrees) if it all gets wrong, you can end up 1 sprocket off and most likely backwards.
You have to recheck everything after the cam chain tensioner is put in and the motor rotated through a couple cycles so everything settles in and the chain tension is correct.
Yea Junior!
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC00206a.jpg)
looks too good adidas!! Best fairing ever designed for the gs in my opinion.
Glad he's back up and running right, now he looks flossing!
Thats very cool that you were able to figure this out. Kudos to you! I guess I can take some of the blame for this happening in the first place :oops:
Quote from: adidasguy on August 26, 2012, 10:33:30 PM
Werll, there is the optical illusion of the head being at an angle. Your brain wants the timing arrow to point forward - not down at about a 15* angle which is what is required to be level with the top of the head. Also the diagrams have the head horizontal, not at the angle it really is at. So your brain wants it horizontal. Then, the chain will stretch when the CCT is installed. That will make the cams go counterclockwise (backwards) a little. add to that the timing rotor can shift a little (a couple degrees) if it all gets wrong, you can end up 1 sprocket off and most likely backwards.
You have to recheck everything after the cam chain tensioner is put in and the motor rotated through a couple cycles so everything settles in and the chain tension is correct.
I definitely agree that setting the timing right is a challenge. This post pretty well summarizes the pitfalls in the process. The biggest one for me was making sure the timing stayed on after getting the CCT installed. It's best to give the engine a turn by hand after getting everything installed and tightened to make sure everything still looks as it does in the manual diagram.
Quote from: Bluesmudge on August 28, 2012, 11:32:05 AM
Thats very cool that you were able to figure this out. Kudos to you! I guess I can take some of the blame for this happening in the first place :oops:
Well, I think 1 link off is not that bad. 10*. There's that much slop in the chain and the position of the rotor.
I think things started to show as the valves wore in and tightened. A little off is OK if valves loose. When tight, they stay open longer. Plus that right intake valve bucket has some off scratches on it. Suspect that valve was sticking, too.
Don't feel bad. junior never would be running if you and James weren't there to help. That was an untested, used head - it will be examined later. I wouldn't have been able to do what I just did if it weren't for learning what to do from you and James.
You should feel good - this student learned well of the master!
Stop by - probably wrenching Saturday and Monday morning/noon. Plan to hit Vashon sometime this weekend.
Quote from: adidasguy on August 25, 2012, 08:10:13 PM
Gave Junior some new clothes today now that he is running good again.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC00200a.jpg)
Original new in the box fairing which I believe is a 1998. Bought from the UK over a year ago. Always wanted to see what it looked like.
Riding: cool. Smaller than the "F" fairing so the bike still feels small and sporty. I will have to change the 89 bar clips for the Euro type 1's because of clearance of the brake lever with the fairing when turning fully left.
How cold is it where you are? How does the fairing effect the air cooled engine? I'd think it would overheat
Quote from: adidasguy on August 26, 2012, 10:33:30 PM
Quote from: Phil B on August 26, 2012, 03:50:20 AM
wow gorgeous.
Yea Junior!
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC00206a.jpg)
Oh wow... Yea Junior indeed. What a GREAT looking GS.
:cheers:
The fairing is fine. I suppose if in a desert and stopped in traffic it might be an issue. There is lots of space for air to circulate. It was sold mostly in Europe for the 89-00 GS500's. I found my fairing new in the original box at a place in the UK a couple years ago. Make by TCP, which I have heard is the same as 5-Stars. I have a used 5-Stars fairing and it is identical except for the stamping on the wind screen.
Right now Junior is at the motorcycle show with different seat and side plastics (see pix in main area with topic on the show).
This configuration looks good. You can be proud of your work. :thumb: Wouldn't know it was a GS if you didn't know.
Are those wheels the original color?
Junior is a '92, which had white rims stock; however, they are a stock color of rims offered on 96-00 (maybe some other years to) models.
- Bboy
Everything is stock, original paint except the tail/seat, which is Gimbel and had to be painted but used the Candy Antares Red OEM paint from Colorrite.
Rims are original color 96-00 vintage.
89-95 = white rims
96-2000 = gray
2001-2002 = silver
2004+ = black
I am jealous of nearly every GS I see on this site.
Quote from: PatheticPuma on January 11, 2013, 09:07:38 PM
I am jealous of nearly every GS I see on this site.
lol welcome to my world :cheers:
Quote from: BockinBboy on January 11, 2013, 01:21:55 PM
Junior is a '92, which had white rims stock; however, they are a stock color of rims offered on 96-00 (maybe some other years to) models.
BTW I should let you know, adidasguy, that it is a compliment that stats about your bikes occupy some of my brain space like this.
- Bboy
Finally cracked open that engine. What a muthirfooker. I guess I should have removed parts in a different order. I ended up cutting off the clutch assembly bolt (thank you Harbor Freight grinder). Then could remove the piece that kept the case from opening up.
Interesting what damage was done. The gear of the counter balancer was grinding away the inside of the case.
Was able to salvage the crank shaft for a member. Tranny parts are all good. So I'll probably bag & tag them then recycle the remaining carcass for a few dollars.
(http://www.gs500.net/gallery/data/503/IMGP2184.JPG) (http://www.gs500.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/266/title/imgp2184/cat/503)
(http://www.gs500.net/gallery/data/503/IMGP2183.JPG) (http://www.gs500.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/265/title/imgp2183/cat/503)
It's amazing that Junior was running at all, looking at how much wear was occurring. That's a serious chunk taken out of the casing!
I don't know if this is the case with the counter balance weights on the crankshaft in your situation but sometimes manufacturers will machine clearances in the surface of the engine cases in random spots just because of manufacture differences.
No - this really was the gear grinding out the case. The metal shavings in the oil sump were proof. Combined with a bad counter balance bearing on that end --- it really happened.
(.....and notice the metal shavings in the lower photo.)
dang i read this entire post and all the videos...NOW THAT IS A LOT OF WORK!
Having a few friends to help and all the necessary tools on hand made it really go pretty easy. also having spare engine parts around helped, too.
It was quite a learning experience and couldn't have done it without bluesmudge and jmill.
I hope to gain as much experience and insight as all of you :thumb:
It's looking over things like this that make me want to keep the my GS... I have sellers regret and I haven't even sold it yet! Ahhhhhh