Good day,
Last night I was trying to replace some very tight shims in the two from exhaust valve buckets on my son's 04.
After many hours of prying etc, I took the cams off and then popped the shims out of the front. Both were 275's. I installed 260's.
I set the cams back up to what looked like to be the correct setting, bolted it back together and started it up. I was able to easily turn the cams and the crank using the nut on the timing side of the engine.
The motor tuned nicely and with out any abnormal tension. I checked the timing marks and made sure that all was with in spec.
I noticed that I was off a touch on the alignment of the marks.
I released the chain tensioner and turned the motor again. All was good.
I buttoned it back up and started it up, it ran really rough for a few min before it stalled and died. I tried to start it again and no luck.
So this morning I started all over again pulling it apart with the intent of resetting the timing and getting it to run. Well that was the plan.
As I continued to try and dial in the cams I had a one heck of time with the cam chain tension. No matter what I did the chain became so tight that that I could not turn the motor by hand- plugs out and all.
I also notices that one of the can holder dowels is now missing, I fear it fell into the motor and may have hung up the chain on the crank sprocket.
Well looked into the black hole and nothing used my magnet and searched around and nothing came up. I have a very strong suspicion that the dowel is in the motor some where.
I decided to to tray again and pulled the cams out one more time and put them back into place and no matter what I did the I could not move the engine period.
During this fiasco, I noticed that the shim buckets on exh, 1 and 2 would not move, they would not turn freely. Intake 1 and 2 were perfect.
So i am really stuck now, I think I have to pull the ignition side side cover off and find out where the chain is stuck.
Any suggestions? Anyone run into this before?
Thanks
Did the crank turn freely with the cams removed?
-Jessie
It did but then it stopped. To be honest I got frustrated and worried that I had done some serious damage. Once I got stuck and could no longer turn the crank- after applying some pretty good pressure I just stopped.
What were your clearances when you re fitted the shims? Also if you can't turn the engine you may have gotten your timing out when you re assembled and your valves are hitting the piston. Just thinking aloud here.
Will the motor turn now? Could be two things going on. The dowel is in the sump so that's straightforward enough pull the sump. But and this could or could not be a big but, that dowel fell down and has damaged a gear and then fallen into the sump or that dowel is still stuck there, so you may just have to in either case pull the sump off and have a Bo peep.
The original shims that were in the exhaust buckets were 270 and 275 with zero clearance I switched out the shims and I was .08 and .10.
I have not tried to turn the engine at all since the chain is pretty well stuck, I think the only way to move the chain is move the crank counter clock wise. That is no no, so not sure what to do. As far as the dowel goes, I have no idea where it could be located.
Do you have a pic of where the sump is located? I guess I should have juts taken it to a shop and let them have at it. I am troubled by the tight shim buckets, that was really odd and very discouraging.
Thanks for thinking and trying to help, just not sure what to do next, look for a used motor or find a shop to rebuild it from the bowels up.
This bike ran right for about a week, then it just started to run badly. Hanging rev's poor power, ride ability, stalling long warm ups. Just not a safe bike for my son to ride.
I had a similar issue with the cam chain. I think that if the chain is somewhat loose when you try to turn the crank it can kink somewhere and become tight. In frustration, I carefully turned the crank counterclockwise slowly and got it worked out. I got it all back together and it worked fine. I don't think one or two rotations counterclockwise hurts anything. I'm not sure why they say not to turn that way. Whatever the case, you need to find that dowel. Looks like you have to drop the oil pan and take a look.
Thank you very much I will give it a try and let you know. As for the dowel pin, I hope it found it's way to the oil pan.
Very helpful information and suggestions from all that replied.
Thanks
I had a similar process when I did my first valve check and ended up putting it together slightly out of time and bent 2 or 3 of my valves. Since you said it ran rough for a few minutes I am guessing that you were off by one link on the timing. In the future check this like, 10 times that it is exactly how it shows in the manual.
The fact that the engine won't turn over with the cams removed is not very encouraging. Take the oil pan off to start and let us know what you find. You can also try going counterclockwise just a little bit. I've done it with my engine and it still runs fine.
Thanks for the suggestion and hopefully I did not bend any valves! I have not tinkered with it since yesterday morning, I dropped it off a local shop. I trust this shop as they have done work to my VFR, my SV and I have recommend many friends to him as well.
He seemed to be okay with the issue and did not give me any doubts that he could not getting it running. He will get to it Tuesday and let me know.
Next time I will take to the shop. The amount of frustration and anxiety I have faced since last Thursday is not worth the few hundred bucks it would have cost to get the job done right.
Thanks for the feed back and I will let you know what happens.
Did you have a manual when doing this? Between me and the BF it took about 15 labor hours (first time doing it) to rebuild the whole top end. Parts (top end, gaskets, oil, and filter) were about $350. We took pictures during disassemble and while we took our time and measured everything numerous times didn't have an issue.
A few weeks ago I took my tires to the "best shop in town" and they put the rear wheel on backwards. In my mind that wasn't worth the time and money. My bike ended up being down the whole weekend which cost me $60 in gas not to mention the $50 for the work
. When I took them back in all they did was fix it no sorry or anything. Made me even more pissed off when a place doesn't recognize their screw up! At least if I screw it up there is only one person I can be mad at. And I don't like being mad at myself so screw ups don't happen much.
Moral of this long winded story get a manual and double or triple check yourself!
Mary
Mary
Thanks for sharing.
I did have the manual, but my issue was with setting the timing, not to mention two very tight exhaust shim buckets.
I am sure that if I kept working at it I would get it but I realized that I was getting over my head. When I could not locate the dowel, that is when it got nasty. Then when I could no longer turn the motor using the crank, I got very concerned that I had done some serious damage.
In terms of dealing with this bike shop; I guess time will tell.
If it is serious, I will buy a used motor and install it myself for sure. But if he can get it back together with in a few days it will be work the effort.
I am not an expert and if he tells me the only way around the issue is to replace the motor, I will be glad and I will take that step.
If I had the time to do nothing but work on the bike, I would; however, I can't so I am stuck.
I guess time will tell. We bought the bike in March and it ram fine for about two weeks. That is when we had idle and stalling problems. It became a safety problem; one that I did not want to have while my son was ridding. What ever happens I will be getting rid of next season. Fuel injection v twin or a ninja 650 is in the future.
The main purpose of this bike was to build up my sons confidence and the progress into something bigger and more current.
I must say I am disappointed in myself and the bike; more myself for not really researching this bike before I jumped at it.
Thanks again for sharing, let you know what I hear and I will provide an update.
For future reference, I would advise getting the motion pro suzuki shim tool instead of removing the cams to change the shims. I made the same mistake of removing the cams instead of getting the right tool when I did mine, and I ending up shearing off a bolt when I reinstalled them. I did manage to get the timing right though :).
Tool has been ordered but the suzuki dealers in Canada are very slow at everything. I have been waiting for two weeks to get one from motion pro through the local suzuki dealer. I figured with the manual and help from this great site, I would be just fine.
I did not expect to have such a tough time with the two exhaust buckets- they still don't turn, so I was doing very well until I had to try and get that timing to set up.
The worst part was that every time I thought I had the timing set up right; I would apply tension to the cam chain and the cams would move. That warning is not documented in the manual. Once the chain is loose the cam lobes will rotate off TDC, then the games begin.
Thanks for the advice and comments
Quote from: merlinq21 on June 04, 2012, 09:11:09 AM
Tool has been ordered but the suzuki dealers in Canada are very slow at everything. I have been waiting for two weeks to get one from motion pro through the local suzuki dealer. I figured with the manual and help from this great site, I would be just fine.
I did not expect to have such a tough time with the two exhaust buckets- they still don't turn, so I was doing very well until I had to try and get that timing to set up.
The worst part was that every time I thought I had the timing set up right; I would apply tension to the cam chain and the cams would move. That warning is not documented in the manual. Once the chain is loose the cam lobes will rotate off TDC, then the games begin.
Thanks for the advice and comments
You can get the tool off of amazon or ebay also, which may be quicker.
Agreed, however, some do not ship to canada and if they do the shipping costs are double or triple the cost of the tool. Hind sight, should have waited because I am sure that the repair will be a significant expense- either a new motor or a rebuild.
Thanks
Cams to move when the chain tightened. I learned that from Bluesmudge.
When he coordinated the making of a new engine (from 4 different ones) for Junior, I kept saying the timing looks right or it looks off. He stayed with his tried and true method: COUNT THE CHAIN LINKS!. Don't look much at the cam ends because they will change when the chain is tightened.
True - he was right. Junior runs perfect thanks to bluesmudge knowing the right way to do it.
You know, that is where I failed in the counting of the links, I missed that part of the step somehow, not sure how but I am sure had I followed that I would have been just fine.
Thanks for the feedback
Not only links, it is making sure you cranked the engine to the correct position. We resorted to a screw driver in the spark plug hole and watched it so we knew when a piston was a top dead center. Buy bluesmudge a plane ticket - he can get the timing back and replace bent valves if no one else can.
Then we manually cranked the engine a few rounds to be sure things were correct.
Then we check the valves - now that everything should be seated properly after manually cranking a few revolutions.
Thanks again,
I thought I had the timing marks lined up properly, the bike did run fir a few min although it idled rough it did run.
Where would I have to fly him from?
next time I will use the stupid tool, if I ever get it that is.
have a great day
Seattle.
It would be more convenient if you first moved to BC. Maybe Vancouver.
I think adidasguy gives me too much credit. I can't replace a bent valve, I just put on a whole new head (yay for cheap GS500 parts).
Also, I only know what I know because I made a similar mistake and had to replace everything. If I had used the motion pro tool I would have saved myself all the trouble and learning experience.
In the end, even with all the tools and new top end I bought, it was still cheaper than taking the bike to the shop for a valve adjustment. I hope you have a good experience with your shop.
I've done 22 valve checks with 11 shim changes over my 170k GS500 miles using a screwdriver in place of the special tool. Bought the tool once and tried it and it didn't work well for me. My son took it and reworked it by filing the nose some and used it after I gave him my old 97 GS. Screwdrivers work best for me. Old dog new trick thing I guess. :icon_lol:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/ValveShimTools.jpg
I'd never consider pulling the cams for a valve shim change, only time I've pulled the cams and head was to replace a broken exhaust valve causes by a tight bucket on the 02 GS. If you find out how your exhaust buckets went tight let us know, I find that one baffling off hand. I've seen old Suzukis that had the cams pulled for engine repair end up with stripped cam shaft cap bolts after many years.
Your on the right track with the new wider exhaust valve shim gaps, keep them .08-.13 mm if you want long engine life with fewer shim changes. I put this together for my reference on GS engine timing marks for installing cams and for checking valve clearances:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/gs500signalgenerators.jpg
If anyone had the cam timing jump when releasing the chain tightener they must not have had the chain pulled tight between the crank gear and the exhaust cam gear when setting it on the 1 mark and counting the 18 pins between the cam gears 2 & 3 marks.
Quote from: Bluesmudge on June 04, 2012, 02:39:47 PM
I think adidasguy gives me too much credit. I can't replace a bent valve, I just put on a whole new head (yay for cheap GS500 parts).
Also, I only know what I know because I made a similar mistake and had to replace everything. If I had used the motion pro tool I would have saved myself all the trouble and learning experience.
In the end, even with all the tools and new top end I bought, it was still cheaper than taking the bike to the shop for a valve adjustment. I hope you have a good experience with your shop.
Yes negative outcomes are the mother of innovation and progress.
I think I will be in the same boat as you, I am sure this repair will be costly; but I have learned from it.
Quote from: gsJack on June 04, 2012, 03:54:47 PM
I've done 22 valve checks with 11 shim changes over my 170k GS500 miles using a screwdriver in place of the special tool. Bought the tool once and tried it and it didn't work well for me. My son took it and reworked it by filing the nose some and used it after I gave him my old 97 GS. Screwdrivers work best for me. Old dog new trick thing I guess. :icon_lol:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/ValveShimTools.jpg
I'd never consider pulling the cams for a valve shim change, only time I've pulled the cams and head was to replace a broken exhaust valve causes by a tight bucket on the 02 GS. If you find out how your exhaust buckets went tight let us know, I find that one baffling off hand. I've seen old Suzukis that had the cams pulled for engine repair end up with stripped cam shaft cap bolts after many years.
Your on the right track with the new wider exhaust valve shim gaps, keep them .08-.13 mm if you want long engine life with fewer shim changes. I put this together for my reference on GS engine timing marks for installing cams and for checking valve clearances:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/gs500signalgenerators.jpg
If anyone had the cam timing jump when releasing the chain tightener they must not have had the chain pulled tight between the crank gear and the exhaust cam gear when setting it on the 1 mark and counting the 18 pins between the cam gears 2 & 3 marks.
I will be sure to keep you updated. I do have a question for you. Did you ever take pictures of a shim change using a screw driver, it would be great to see it in operation. I did try to work with a flat head screw driver; but I could not get the shim bucket to depress just kept slipping the screw driver off the bucket.
I was shocked as to how well the in take buckets moved and turned. No matter what I did I could not get the exhaust buckets to move. edit: I want to be clear, the exhaust buckets did move up and down under the cam lobe; there was no rotating them to get access to the gap so that you could pull the shim.
I will let you know.
Thanks
Sorry, I didn't take any pictures of changing shims with screwdrivers and don't expect to have the cam cover off again on my current 02 GS. Tried it early on with my 97 GS 13 years ago after a couple other members here said they used screwdrivers. I ended up using a wedge tool from my old Honda 750 for my shim changes all these years, it's shown in my first link in my last post. If your slipping out with the screwdriver sounds like you are trying to pry the bucket down, try using the screwdriver as a wedge pushing it straight in to hold bucket down while placing the 1/4" wide screwdriver blade vertically on the edge of the tappet outside the shim on the far side out of the way.
I had an exhaust valve run with minimum clearance for a long time on my 97 GS and it started requiring shim changes every valve check until it was down to a minimum 215 shim before 80k miles. When I had the tighter of the 2 exhaust valves on my 02 GS start requiring shim changes at 31k and 39k miles I started setting exhaust valves to my new .003-.005" (.08-.13 mm) exhaust valve spec then went about 40k miles without a shim change. I changed it once more to the .005" max at 86k miles last year and don't expect to change it again, didn't even check them this year with 94k on the clock now. It's a contest now on which lives longer, me or my 02 GS. :icon_lol: Here's the whole record:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/GSvalvelogs.jpg
Well Jack, Thanks again. I will have to give it a try next time. Here to you out living your GS.
Best wishes and thank you
Well guys, motor is pooched. He fished out one of the dowels that did some serious damage to the crank. Manage to pull the dowel out and loosen up the motor only to have get really tight in places.
Can't do anymore investigation with out splitting the cases. Now the question is do I pull the motor and break it down myself and replace the crank shaft$$$$$$$$$$$$$ or buy a used motor?
thoughts, opinions?
Thanks
If I were to buy a used motor I would break it down anyways to check it out and replace wear items.
agreed, that is the plan.
Thanks
anyone know if an 07 motor will work on an o4 bike
Any motor will work. Just be sure the timing pickup is a single one for 04+ electrical systems. Change it out of necessary from your present motor.
Be sure the engine intake boots are the correct ones for your carbs, or use your existing ones (put in new o rings for a good seal)
The basic motor is the same. The intake boots changed when the carbs changed. The timing pickup was double, then went single in 2004. Added oil cooler in 2004. But the basic core of the engine is the same. You can swap those things around as much as you want.
Quote from: adidasguy on June 06, 2012, 05:21:39 PM
Any motor will work. Just be sure the timing pickup is a single one for 04+ electrical systems. Change it out of necessary from your present motor.
Be sure the engine intake boots are the correct ones for your carbs, or use your existing ones (put in new o rings for a good seal)
The basic motor is the same. The intake boots changed when the carbs changed. The timing pickup was double, then went single in 2004. Added oil cooler in 2004. But the basic core of the engine is the same. You can swap those things around as much as you want.
very much appreciated, now I have to find one.
Thanks
Update:
Good morning all!
So I have a new motor on the way, found one locally that came out a freshly wrecked 2009. Before it was pulled out of the bike I went to see it and it ran perfectly. I had them pull it out for me and ship to my home. I should get it tomorrow (forgot to mention it had 10K km's on it).
Feeling good about my purchase, I got home and pulled out the motor out of the 2004. I stripped it down and found the missing dowel, actually one was very deformed, crushed by the lower cam gear and the other one (yes there were two down there) was sitting up against the back side of the chain. It was intact and almost perfect (save for a few scratches).
Was able to turn the motor with out binding on the gears of the chain. It looked good down in the crank case, no missing teeth, no shavings in the oil etc.
Upon separating the cylinder head from the cylinder I noticed that the two gaskets looked really ratty, if also looked like they had been replaced before. The cylinders looked great there were good cross hatches visible, no scoring etc.
I have ordered all the necessary gaskets and o rings to put it back together. Before I tackle that project I was looking for some advice.
Before I snap it all together should I replace the piston rings?
Should I clean the carbon and build up out of the cylinder head?
Should I clean off the top of the pistons?
What is the best way to clean the surfaces before applying the upper and lower cylinder head gaskets?
Should I use a chemical sealer between the gaskets and the mating surfaces?
How much oil is required for a complete rebuild (all fluids are out of the engine)?
If I sell the engine, what is good price for a 2004 with 34K km's on it?
Thanks
PS. How does one post pictures on this forum?
New motor arrived last Friday. Took about an hour to install it and get it ready for oil. Checked the shims and they were perfect.
Motor came complete from the air box to the Pair system plus all the wiring for the entire bike. what a deal for $899.
Bolted it in, filled it with my favorite dino-oil and ran it for a while. Bike starts right up, turn the choke down after less than min and she idles nice and smooth with no hanging etc.
Last thing left to do is bock off the pair system (usa motor installed in a Canadian bike), then we are complete. Will not re- jet (have all the parts ready to for that task) until the winter- so no reason to lay the bike up any further this summer.
For all of you that commented and helped by responding and offer guidance and advice; thank you. For those of you that followed the topic - hope you got some sound advice.
Have a great day, ride safe