I have a bit of a conundrum with my '05. My bike spews white smoke but only when warm, and the hotter it gets the more it smokes.
My first thought was oil getting past the cylinder rings. I ran a compression test and both cylinders are right at 130 PSI. That means that the rings are ok right, or can they still leak but not cause a drop in compression?
I then moved on to the carbs. Let me start off by saying the carbs are still stock. I pulled them out and cleaned them (left them in carb cleaner overnight and took a nylon brush to them making sure to get all the little holes in the jets and everywhere) and replaced a few o-rings that looked worn. I put it back on and got the same result.
Next I tried the vacuum system. For this I just capped the left carb and gravity fed fuel to the carbs. Same result.
I am out of ideas. If anyone wants to venture a guess as to what is going on I would appreciate it. :dunno_black:
Generally speaking white smoke is caused by one of two things. Condensation (not really smoke but steam) and coolant being burned off. Since you obviously don't have any coolant to burn, it's most likely the latter.
Can you confirm it is smoke? Does it linger in the pipe after you shut the bike off?
A video would be helpful.
Edit: Also, for future reference, oil being burned typically produces blue smoke.
There is definitely some lingering "smoke" when the bike shuts off. To me it looks too heavy to be just steam. I am working on the video now. Thanks for the help.
From what i know with chain saws and what not the white smoke is impurities being burned off, now this normally happens once in a while and we wait it out, does it keep happening?? i know today (im taking the safety motorcycle course this weekend) just about all the bikes had white smoke (it was raining all day too) which can be attributed to condensation, a common occurance in the great north west
As far as I can tell the smoke just keeps coming. i ran it for about three minutes once to try and wait it out and the more I ran it the thicker the smoke got. As far as condensation I live in the central valley of California (hot dry desert), and it was about 85 degrees with no humidity when I shot the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XtvXlKeXgk&feature=youtu.be
In the video I know it does not look like a lot of smoke but in person it looks much worse. I let it idle for about 1min (I cut out most of the warm up time not to bore you). Then it started to puff out white smoke like it always does. If you watch to the end you can see white smoke continue to waft out after the engine is shut off. Sorry there is about a 1 second video-audio mismatch. I guess I need better editing software :oops:. I hope this helps
I'm no expert on this at all , however the smoke visible still looks to be behaving like steam? I'm probably just sayin nothin here but my initial wondering moment was ..
is there a higher than normal water/moisture content in the fuel? Causing visible vapor even tho you in dry climate?
And does the vapor have a different smell than normal exhaust? If it is burning oil you will notice change in smell
Is someone maybe messing with you and put a contaminant in the fuel?
Even tho you are in dry desert , what's the relative temp and humidity change in the garage? Cooler and moister I would think?
The timing of a up to a min is about the same as condensation appearing in most engines .. Oil smoke usually starts when engines do
Lastly ... How long that carbon can been on? New exhausts can be odd/finicky till they settle in ... And maybe it's just the vid sound but the engine sounds to a little rough and slight miss here and there .. So again is the fuel good and is the tune and jetting right for the can/pipes?
The bad gas is a possibility, and is easy to check. Thanks for the suggestion. I don't know how I overlooked that.
The pipe was put on by a previous owner and the bike has run well with it in the past. I have also run the bike in colder and even drier months here with with no cloud of "smoke" spewing out the back end.
Okay, having looked at the video it does in fact appear to be smoke. Steam won't blow around like that and quickly dissipates. It also will not linger inside the pipe after the engine is shut off.
Bad gas is another possibility I too overlooked...however:
I'm concerned about the clanking noise your engine is making. It does not sound like it is running well at all. When was the last time the valves were checked? Another quick thing you can do is (after the engine is completely cool) remove the sparkplugs and have a look at them. Do not remove or insert spark plugs with the motor hot or even warm - the head is more easily damaged/stripped.
A picture of the spark plugs could tell us more. Also, check your oil and see if it smells heavily of gas. Used motor oil tends to have a "burnt matches" smell to it, with a slight hint of gasoline. It should not have an overwhelming smell of gasoline.
Report back and we'll go from there.
Quote from: iclrag on June 30, 2012, 10:23:23 PM
From what i know with chain saws and what not the white smoke is impurities being burned off, now this normally happens once in a while and we wait it out, does it keep happening?? i know today (im taking the safety motorcycle course this weekend) just about all the bikes had white smoke (it was raining all day too) which can be attributed to condensation, a common occurance in the great north west
Well, the biggest thing you have to take into consideration is the fact that chainsaw motors are two-cycle and impurities are quite common. The environment chainsaws are exposed to are also much, much harsher than what your average street bike is exposed to.
Sorry, I forgot to mention that I changed the oil early on as well to try and fix the problem. I thought some gas maybe got washed down in to the oil, but the situation did not improve after the oil change. There is no gas or burned smell from the oil currently. The clanking noise is a new symptom. I thought it was due to lack of gas, but I fired it up again today with lots of fresh gas and it still backfired through the carbs. I will clean the carbs again and check the valves and the timing. All of this was supposedly checked by the last owners mechanic about 300 miles ago but I have recently found out he is not the most trustworthy fellow.
Here is a pic of the spark plugs.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/81676530@N05/7484794668/in/photostream
the black one was from the cylinder that was backfiring. Hope this helps and thanks again everyone.
Well neither one of those look horrible.
Perhaps you could try increasing the idle speed a bit?
Have you messed with the mixture needles at all? If so, it's possible you broke one or one is way off kilter.
What kind of shape is the battery in? How old is it?
I'm wondering if it could be a blown head gasket or piston ring. Might inspect the top end for any visible oil leaks.
How long were the spark plugs run with the smoking issue? A blown piston ring will foul the spark plug on that side. One of your plugs is definitely darker than the other. If you've only run the engine a short time with the smoking issue, it may not have not had a chance to really foul up.
I'm no expert here...just a couple ideas.
Edit: Sorry just saw that you ran a compression test. Probably not the rings
Just a thought, it could be the valve stem seals, most noticeable if you coast down a hill then accelerate.
looks like you're burning oil, I agree with the last post, valve seals...
i just remembered, my dads friend just had to get his engine fixed because the gas he got at a gas station had water in it, hope the same didnt hapen to you! but worth checking
Update:
When I took the carburetor out and inspected it I did find one of the mixture screws to be a little off. I also checked the valve clearances and one was slightly less than .03mm so I will be replacing that. I also cleaned the spark plugs. I think these will solve the misfire problem but not the smoke. Hopefully I am wrong.
Quote from: duffy on July 03, 2012, 04:53:52 AM
looks like you're burning oil, I agree with the last post, valve seals...
Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't a bad valve seal smoke a bunch when the engine starts cold? Mine will not smoke until the engine warms up.
Quote from: iclrag on July 03, 2012, 09:13:02 AM
i just remembered, my dads friend just had to get his engine fixed because the gas he got at a gas station had water in it, hope the same didnt hapen to you! but worth checking
I will look more into the bad gas. Thanks for the help everyone.
Quote from: A.Town on July 04, 2012, 11:27:30 AM
Update:
When I took the carburetor out and inspected it I did find one of the mixture screws to be a little off. I also checked the valve clearances and one was slightly less than .03mm so I will be replacing that. I also cleaned the spark plugs. I think these will solve the misfire problem but not the smoke. Hopefully I am wrong.
Quote from: duffy on July 03, 2012, 04:53:52 AM
looks like you're burning oil, I agree with the last post, valve seals...
Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't a bad valve seal smoke a bunch when the engine starts cold? Mine will not smoke until the engine warms up.
Quote from: iclrag on July 03, 2012, 09:13:02 AM
i just remembered, my dads friend just had to get his engine fixed because the gas he got at a gas station had water in it, hope the same didnt hapen to you! but worth checking
I will look more into the bad gas. Thanks for the help everyone.
You are correct. I had a KLR650 (1988 model, 7.5k miles on it) that would smoke like hell when cold but then stop once it was warmed up. You're having the opposite effect, and, not to discredit these other folks but oil burning does not usually produce wispy white smoke like that. It's usually heavy blue.
I'm still keen to know does the vapor have a different smell to normal exhaust?
Like other things on vehicles ... Burnt clutch smell different to hot brake to gear oil to blown rings oil to radiator etc etc etc .. A mechanic that knows should be able to at least smell the vapor and narrow it down for ya ......
The nose knows bro's ! 8)
Quote from: Janx101 on July 08, 2012, 02:44:08 AM
I'm still keen to know does the vapor have a different smell to normal exhaust?
Like other things on vehicles ... Burnt clutch smell different to hot brake to gear oil to blown rings oil to radiator etc etc etc .. A mechanic that knows should be able to at least smell the vapor and narrow it down for ya ......
The nose knows bro's ! 8)
Agreed. Oil smoke has a pretty unmistakeable odour. A bike running rich gives off smoke too but that would cause a dark smoke not white.
That engine doesn't sound healthy.
That bike is sick. I don't mean "good" as the kids say these days, I mean ill, not healthy, in need of treatment.
your valve clearance is bottom end. Take then all out to 08 and see.
As far as smoke, my money is on a gasket getting cooked. Any oil leaks around the engine? You have only had the bike a very short while, how new is the exhaust?
Michael
Geez mister .. The exhaust is by PO .. Didn't you read all the thread? :flipoff: ;)
Quote from: Janx101 on July 09, 2012, 02:56:41 PM
Geez mister .. The exhaust is by PO .. Didn't you read all the thread? :flipoff: ;)
Yes, I read the entire thread where this was already asked and answered that the PO put it on. But then I read or misread this person has only had the bike for 300 miles. So... if the PO put the new muffler on to make the sale then it's only 300 miles old. I raise the point because there could be one issue here - or - two issues which are unrelated but happening at the same time.
E.g. Burning gasket is one issue. Sick sounding engine with burning crude in exhaust is two issues.
What it isn't is oil. Oil getting past the rings would burn right away. This is related to a warmer / Hotter engine. As the engine and exhaust system get hotter something else is getting hotter and burning. Either a gasket or something in the exhaust.
Michael
Quote from: Kijona on July 02, 2012, 07:48:49 PM
What kind of shape is the battery in? How old is it?
How does this correspond to the smoke from the exhaust or am I missing something?
Quote from: Twisted on July 10, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
Quote from: Kijona on July 02, 2012, 07:48:49 PM
What kind of shape is the battery in? How old is it?
How does this correspond to the smoke from the exhaust or am I missing something?
You'd be surprised. Bike had a bad battery and one of the first symptoms was one cylinder not firing correctly.
White smoke can indicate burning oil just as much as blue can :dunno_black: but there is an easy way to determine if the vapour is steam or oil, you just place a sheet of white paper across the end of the pipe leave it for a minute or two and see what happens to it. Steam will condense and soak it, oil will leave a dark stain.
The fact the bike has recently been sold is not good, maybe the PO was aware of an issue and decided to offload it :dunno_black:
Assuming it is in fact oil there are numerous ways it could get into the chamber and to suggest how and why without investigation would be pure speculation but if you haven't already done so I suggest you check the oil level and the inside of the airbox for residue, if there is too much oil in the engine it may be getting out via the breather, collecting in the box and getting drawn back in via the carbs.
Sorry, I have been busy and had to put the bike on the back burner for a bit. This idea of a burning gasket is intriguing because the first time it smoked I did notice a kind of burned plastic smell. Any idea as to what gaskets I should check?
I have the new shim and will be will be putting that in and rechecking all the clearances tonight and hopefully I will have enough time to put it together to see if it runs smoothly.
The battery seems strong and I keep it charged so I don't think that is an issue. I will have it checked if the bike still runs poorly after tonight. Thanks guys
I am not a fan of the new style IRRIDIUM plugs. The old school plugs burn better,they just dont last as long ,and for a few bux they are simple to change out when you need to do that.
-CS
Update:
So I re-shimmed the valves and everything is in spec now. I also fixed a few vacuum leaks. In doing this I had to remove the exhaust (I had to retrieve a dropped shim). The PO didn't have header gaskets on there nor were the bolts very tight but there was no noticeable exhaust leak. Is that normal? I put the pipes back on as they were (with tightened bolts) and they leak. Will the pipes leak if you torque down the bolts too tight?
On a brighter note the bike doesn't sound sickly anymore, but now I have white smoke wafting out of the front and the back of the bike. Has anyone got any more ideas about the smoke?
I'd recommend getting new exhaust gaskets. The exhaust will leak without them, and exhaust leaks will cause the bike to run a bit rough.
Update:
After testing every theory put forth by everyone I asked to fix my smoke problem I finally broke down and decided that the bike was beyond my capabilities to fix and brought it to the local garage. He had me start it up and immediately said "sounds like a cam chain problem". How he was able to diagnose that from about two seconds of hearing the bike run is beyond me. Anyway I will let anyone who is still reading know if the cam chain fix solves the smoke and the more recently developing sickly sounding engine problem when I get the bike back. Thank you all for your help.
I really don't think the cam chain will have anything to do with the smoke issue. Not to say there isn't an issue with the cam chain tension, because there very well could be. I agree with sledge that it could be oil burning. Just because it's white smoke doesn't mean it's not oil. I'm guessing that the mechanic will come back and say that you need rings.
On the exhaust gaskets, sometimes it doesn't look like there is a gasket in there, but it is covered with black soot so you can't see it. If you put another gasket in, you might have doubled it up and caused it not to seal, thereby causing you to see smoke from the front end as well.
Report back when you hear more from the mechanic.
So the mechanic called today to tell me the chain was actually fine and he is somewhat baffled by what is causing it as well now. His next best guess is the piston rods are causing the poor idle and the poor idle is causing the smoke. I think he might be a bit :cookoo: , but if he can get the bike running like new I'll be happy.
One thing the mechanic and I do agree on is that the piston rings are fine. The compression in the cylinders is perfect and the smoke is not oily smelling. It has a burned plastic, chemically smell to it that is getting stronger each time the bike is run. Burning valve seals maybe? I switched out the gas way back when this whole thing stated and got the same smoke, so I don't think it is anything in the gas (unless I got two bad batches of gas from two different gas stations).
I will let you know more when I do.
So on start up it doesn't smoke, but once it warms up after a few minutes it smokes? Try touching the muffler when it starts smoking. After only a few minutes of idling it should be warm but not too hot to touch. If its too hot to touch you may be burning up the packing in the muffler. If that isn't the case, have you read the oil pressure from start up to the point it starts smoking?
The cam chain rattle is easy to tell. No surprise there that the mechanic who heard it in person (as opposed to computer speakers) immediately recognized it as a loose cam chain. Loose cam chains will rattle really bad(rattles less for more cyl, smoother engines) at low engine speeds and go away as you rev the engine(power stroke frequency increases) and chain is pulled tout.
The cam chain is not going to fix your smoke issue.
Possibilities for smoke that I can think of:
Since it is smoking from the exhaust ports where the gasket is missing its probably not the exhaust packing. Its possible the PO used some sort of silicone sealer in lieu of the metal header gasket(seen that happen before).
There are exhaust flange gasket sealers that come in a tube , that is made for exhaust flanges much downstream of the header at engine block.
As for the missing header gaskets try older local independent motorcycle shops before you go to the dealer to get OEM. They usually have the size for the gs500 in stock for $2-$3 as the same size was used on a lot of older bikes.
Where in Central Valley are you? I am in Modesto
--
Ricky
Quote from: RickM on October 16, 2012, 06:57:47 PM
Its possible the PO used some sort of silicone sealer in lieu of the metal header gasket(seen that happen before).
If your sure the smoke you see is coming from out of the head and not not from exhaust escaping from the lack of back pressure in the exhaust than the above guess has been the best so far :thumb:
Quote from: A.Town on October 15, 2012, 11:36:41 AM
So the mechanic called today to tell me the chain was actually fine and he is somewhat baffled by what is causing it as well now. His next best guess is the piston rods are causing the poor idle and the poor idle is causing the smoke. I think he might be a bit :cookoo: , but if he can get the bike running like new I'll be happy.
The chain stretch might be within spec, but the chain guides , and CCT could be worn. A weak/stuck CCT will let the chain rattle around and can wear out the chain guides. These are not usual with a low mileage engine. Whats the mileage on the bike?(Ignore that question if you already said the mileage, I will check the earlier posts). A rod knock (or any bearing knocks) will get much louder with rpms and/or load. From the video it seems like the clacking sound goes away with engine speed. It could also be the camshaft lateral float that some GS500's had. The fix was to use shims/washers to take up the slack. I believe the lateral float issue was harmless except for the annoying sound.
Does it smoke out the header even at higher engine speed? The exhaust packing being the source of smoke seems very likely. But if it smokes out the header at higher engine speeds with open throttle, that would indicate smoke happens upstream of header(??)
Did you wash the bike recently and accidentally get water in to the exhaust soaking the muffler packing?
The smoke escaping from the header gaskets I was able to fix before I brought it to the mechanic. I just needed to clean out the seats, put new gaskets on there, and then set and reset the pipes until I finally got a good seal.
Quote from: kyled25 on October 15, 2012, 11:51:03 PM
If its too hot to touch you may be burning up the packing in the muffler. If that isn't the case, have you read the oil pressure from start up to the point it starts smoking?
I do remember the exhaust pipes getting pretty hot after only a a minute of running. This would be caused by a poor fuel mixture, right? I did do some test to run the bike a little richer and leaner. It did not seem to effect the smoke greatly, but I did not check pipe temperatures when doing this.
Quote from: RickM on October 17, 2012, 12:37:04 AM
The chain stretch might be within spec, but the chain guides , and CCT could be worn. A weak/stuck CCT will let the chain rattle around and can wear out the chain guides. These are not usual with a low mileage engine. Whats the mileage on the bike?(Ignore that question if you already said the mileage, I will check the earlier posts). A rod knock (or any bearing knocks) will get much louder with rpms and/or load. From the video it seems like the clacking sound goes away with engine speed. It could also be the camshaft lateral float that some GS500's had. The fix was to use shims/washers to take up the slack. I believe the lateral float issue was harmless except for the annoying sound.
Did you wash the bike recently and accidentally get water in to the exhaust soaking the muffler packing?
I will have to look in to the lateral float thing. I have not heard of that before. The bike has 20,000 miles on it, so it is not new but I was hoping to get at least 20,000 more before I had to rebuild the engine. And no, the bike has never seen water since I took ownership of it. Thanks for the help guys, and I hope you all had as much fun on Halloween as I did :cheers:.
Oh, and I live in Merced for whoever asked.
Way too many posts for me to want to read through but did you get drain all the fuel out of the tank and carb float bowls and put fresh fuel in it?
Quote from: weedahoe on November 02, 2012, 11:43:22 AM
Way too many posts for me to want to read through but did you get drain all the fuel out of the tank and carb float bowls and put fresh fuel in it?
yep.
Just an update. The guy at the shop still has no idea, so don't feel to bad if you couldn't figure this one out because a pro can't even do it with the bike sitting in front of him for a few months.
White smoke = water
Black smoke = gas
blue smoke = oil
Each has its own odor too.....
anti freeze steam smell sweeter than just water steam
gas smell is rich like warming up with choke on...
Oil smell is heavy and choking smell
also water steam does not linger...like at initial warm up is jsut goes into air ind dries up
gas smoke fades pretty quickly
oil smoke lingers a long time
OH yeah thick blue and black smoke with sparks and glowing red smelling like burning plastic=electrical problem
Cookie
Well if anyone is still interested the mechanic finally found the issue. Apparently the starter clutch went kaput and started working its way loose causing the clankity clank sound and poor running conditions. Still not really sure where the smoke is coming from (possibly something electrical) but it really doesn't matter because the starter clutch and rotor are more than I want to spend on putting this bike back together anyway. So if anyone is looking for spare parts to an 05 GS500 I got some for sale.
You're parting out a complete bike because of a starter clutch and rotor? They don't cost that much to replace......
Starter clutch is cheap and really can't go bad. It can come un-bolted, but in such hard steel,you just bolt it back to the rotor.
Rotor is fine if the magnets have not come off.
I don't get it - it is an easy fix. If you want parts, people here have plenty of parts. Where is the expense in fixing it? Putting a new starter clutch and magneto on the bike is a 15 minute job. Get the parts here for cheap - plenty of us have spare motor parts.
Look through the posts for starter clutch coming loose. Easy fix: bolt it back on to the rotor. Put the rotor and starter back on the bike.
What is your mechanic really telling you?
hrrrrm.... persykic message thru the veil of night to my head .... ole injun warrior "Two Dogs........." .. mechanic say ... this fella him bike broken long time all kaput ... lookum to my brother cycle shop down along freeway not too far ... buyum 600cc + nitro-crotch rocket .. sellum 'broken' bike for coupla beans online .. zoom-um zoom-um ...
least thats how it arrived in my head ;)