apparently my bike isn't liking me starting yesterday morning, it's been running great until now, it wouldn't start on monday so we pushed it up into my friends truck and brougt it in for registration etc. afterwards we brought it home and i jump started it, drove it around for a while then it died on me while i was decelerating (just holding the clutch, not engine braking) so this morning it clicked but wouldn't turn over, i jump-started it again and rode the 20 minute ride into work (about 55 or so on country back roads) I made it with no problems what-so-ever, but when i got here and killed it then tried to start it again it didn't do anything, didn't even make a sound!
My friend is convinced its electrical (he's a trade mechanic, learned from his dad) and wants me to come over so he can check it out and possibly re-wire the bike
So what are your'e thoughts?
I wouldn't let anybody 're-wire' my bike, not even my own self, until I figured out the exact problem .
I 'd guess "battery" as a start , without knowing more details, year, mileage on the bike, how well maintained, modifications ? , etc .
He is a trade mechanic but doesnt recognise the symptoms of a dead or non charging battery and instead wants to rewire it??? :cookoo:
Get the battery out and load tested and the charging system checked before you let him anywhere near the thing :dunno_black:
#5077
That is 99% battery OR connections to the battery.
Get your volt meter and check the voltage. Jump start the bike. Ride a half hour then check the voltage again.
When running, check the voltage. Should be between 13 and 14v. If not, then either bad battery or bad voltage regulator.
The WIKI and Haynes or Clymer manuals tell you how to check the stator.
(I have extra stators and a box of voltage regulators if you need them.)
It is possible your battery was damaged when it was drained.
Like others say - DO NOT REWIRE THE BIKE!
If you were going to do that, it is something you can do. Buy a new wiring harness for $20-$50. Pull the old one and lay in the new one. But it is not a need for a rewire. You have simple, battery issues.
+1 on battery. Even a newer quality battery can sometimes die without warning. Had that happen to me with a Yuasa once that was only 2 years old.
Check connections to make sure it isn't also something else like Stator or Regulator/Rectifier.
Quote from: sledge on July 17, 2012, 09:28:06 AM
He is a trade mechanic but doesnt recognise the symptoms of a dead or non charging battery and instead wants to rewire it??? :cookoo:
Get the battery out and load tested and the charging system checked before you let him anywhere near the thing :dunno_black:
we're charging the battery and testing that first, he just offered to re-wire it if it turns out to be a wiring problem, he was thinking maybe bare wire touched the frame somewhere and created a short or two wires touched that shouldn't have, that's a last resort if it comes down to it, he would help me with it.
i'm hoping it is the beattery and at the same time that it isn't, the battery was purchased brand new and given to me (so no reciept) hopefully it's that simple, perhaps it's no-longer grounded?
Quote from: adidasguy on July 17, 2012, 09:34:42 AM
#5077
That is 99% battery OR connections to the battery.
Get your volt meter and check the voltage. Jump start the bike. Ride a half hour then check the voltage again.
When running, check the voltage. Should be between 13 and 14v. If not, then either bad battery or bad voltage regulator.
The WIKI and Haynes or Clymer manuals tell you how to check the stator.
(I have extra stators and a box of voltage regulators if you need them.)
It is possible your battery was damaged when it was drained.
Like others say - DO NOT REWIRE THE BIKE!
If you were going to do that, it is something you can do. Buy a new wiring harness for $20-$50. Pull the old one and lay in the new one. But it is not a need for a rewire. You have simple, battery issues.
I think he was suggesting the wiring harness now that you mention it, my biggest worry was immediately that the strator was having problems, after all the bike was crashed hard enough to make it flip and damage both sides.
I'll have to find my volt meter now! my plans are to have it at-least partially charged at my local auto-zone and see if it is fine from there, my main worry is if i'm out on a 30 minute ride and my bike dies again in the middle of the country we don't have shoulders out here, that'd be a dangerous walk home (and not to mention long) but i'll take the long way home from work (about 20-30 minutes when I do the speed limit) and cruise around town for a bit would that work?
And thanks everybody, i'm thinking it may just be the battery after all (knock on wood) i'll let you know what i find when i get home!
Get yourself a battery charger - make sure you check the electrolyte levels first. If low, top up with distilled water. :thumb:
Michael
Okay, i couldn't jump start it so i got a ride home with the bike in the bed of a truck, i also got a tender on the battery for tonight so we'll see in the morning!
When I bought my bike it had a battery that no matter how long it was charged wouldn't start the bike reliably. Replace it.
yup, 3-4 hours on the tender and it still just clicks, probably the battery still?
#5089
What is the voltage? That will tell us a lot.
when i was at auto-zone it was like 9 something, i never did find my volt meter, reminds me, i'm gonna go look for it again
Hmmm, no luck, i got 0 for all the readings and -1 on one of them (go figure) i did find a pair of shoes though!
#5090
One possibility is dirty connections. Unusual that a battery would read absolute zero. Scrape the meter probes on the terminals and try again
To be sure the meter is working, measure a AA or C or D or 9v battery. if those are zero, the meter is bad.
Quote from: adidasguy on July 17, 2012, 10:45:58 PM
To be sure the meter is working, measure a AA or C or D or 9v battery. if those are zero, the meter is bad.
I would also suggest verifying the range the meter is measuring. If you're somehow measuring too high a voltage range (like ~kW) or AC instead of DC, you might get a 0 reading. I'm not saying I've done this, but I'm not saying I haven't... :cool:
I measured everything, AC / DC even started over with OHMs, i think it doesn't go that low, i got -1 0 and 1 as readings
it was a free volt meter from a friend, i'm no electrician by any means, maybe ti's just a crappy one? i think he got it free with a magazine subscription
#5091
You want the meter on DC. You're looking for up to 15 volts, so you set the meter to the first setting (sometimes second) setting ABOVE the highest voltage you're looking for.
OHMs is for measuring resistance and continuity on a circuit that is off. You can fry a meter trying to measure voltage when set to OHMs.
AC is for measuring house electricity. On a bike, it is AC coming from the stator. It is around 70 volts AC. If you were doing a test with the bike running to see if the stator is generating electricity, you would use AC volts. Probably a 200v setting.
To be sure the meter is working, measure the voltage on a 9v or 1.5v ordinary battery. A new 1.5v battery (like a double A) will measure around 1.7v DC. A used one can measure 1.5 or even lower, depending on how used up the battery is.
You should verify the meter is function correctly.
iclrag? This is getting far more complicated than it needs to. Even you do work out the meter and see 12v across the battery it does not mean its ok. Save some time and make it easy for yourself eh? Take the battery to a shop, ask them to load test. If they say its dead and they probably will, buy a new one. If they say its ok then we can move on to the more tricky stuff :dunno_black:
Yeah, they told me to charge it and bring it back in, s it's probably dead, all night on a tender and no start after work i'm heading back over there.
Every use batteries plus batteries? a few people around town have told me to go there first since they have a lifetime warranty, but first thing is to bring it back into the shop (not in the bike) and see what they say.
New battery time!
Thanks for all the help!
anyone ever use batteries plus? i can get a new battery for 44.50 with exchange (give them my old one) and it has a 6 month warranty, motobatt is $70 ish with a 2 year warranty and i have no idea about Auto-zone, i'll find out.
any recomendations?
i'll probably upgrade to shorai next year or so
#5092
Sledge: I just wanted him to verify the meter was working. zero volts is odd.Minus one very odd and he tried measuring the voltage when on the ohm setting. Yes - aware of what you say. A meter may not say the battery is really good, but it will say if it is bad.
Thought: Internally, the battery broke connection. He says he jump started it. Don't these type of batteries have an internal fuse to prevent a total melt down if the terminals are shorted? The jump start could have fried that - so now you get zero volts. While the battery cells may be good, internally the battery is busted big time.
Okay, i think i'll go and get the cheaper batteries plus battery for 44 bucks, it's somewhat local and i'm upgrading to shorai hopefully around christmas (c'mon santa im counting on you :icon_lol:) so the 6 month warranty will last me that long
Quote from: iclrag on July 18, 2012, 11:25:18 AM
Okay, i think i'll go and get the cheaper batteries plus battery for 44 bucks, it's somewhat local and i'm upgrading to shorai hopefully around christmas (c'mon santa im counting on you :icon_lol:) so the 6 month warranty will last me that long
Why buy a battery now and then another in 6 months? If you don't have the funds for a shorai now, buy whatever and use that until its life is done for. Otherwise you're paying more than you need to for no real good reason.
Michael
#5093
Quote from: mister on July 18, 2012, 12:00:38 PM
Why buy a battery now and then another in 6 months? If you don't have the funds for a shorai now, buy whatever and use that until its life is done for. Otherwise you're paying more than you need to for no real good reason.
Michael
Since he is buying a "whatever" for now, it won't be wasted when he gets a Shorai. He's a long distance member of the West Seattle GS500 Club. Someone will be able to use it when he upgrades the battery.
I think he's making wise choices and hope he's back on the road really soon. Be good so Santa brings you a Shorai.
I don't think you knew he was a member. The West Seattle Bike Cave is like a parts exchange for GS500's.
Quote from: adidasguy on July 18, 2012, 12:12:17 PM
#5093
Quote from: mister on July 18, 2012, 12:00:38 PM
Why buy a battery now and then another in 6 months? If you don't have the funds for a shorai now, buy whatever and use that until its life is done for. Otherwise you're paying more than you need to for no real good reason.
Michael
Since he is buying a "whatever" for now, it won't be wasted when he gets a Shorai. He's a long distance member of the West Seattle GS500 Club. Someone will be able to use it when he upgrades the battery.
I think he's making wise choices and hope he's back on the road really soon. Be good so Santa brings you a Shorai.
I don't think you knew he was a member. The West Seattle Bike Cave is like a parts exchange for GS500's.
I'll also put up a review on the battery so other people can decide if it's a good choice for them, since BatteriesPlus gives you discounts for trading in your current battery when you buy a new one it seems like a good deal! plus the 6 month warranty is nice.
Quote from: adidasguy on July 18, 2012, 11:18:56 AM
#5092
Sledge: I just wanted him to verify the meter was working. zero volts is odd.Minus one very odd and he tried measuring the voltage when on the ohm setting. Yes - aware of what you say. A meter may not say the battery is really good, but it will say if it is bad.
Thought: Internally, the battery broke connection. He says he jump started it. Don't these type of batteries have an internal fuse to prevent a total melt down if the terminals are shorted? The jump start could have fried that - so now you get zero volts. While the battery cells may be good, internally the battery is busted big time.
My friend at work (a very smart engineer) said he thinks the battery shorted out internally based on what happened.
Quote from: adidasguy on July 18, 2012, 11:18:56 AM
#5092
Sledge: I just wanted him to verify the meter was working. zero volts is odd.Minus one very odd and he tried measuring the voltage when on the ohm setting. Yes - aware of what you say. A meter may not say the battery is really good, but it will say if it is bad.
Point taken,......however its pretty obvious that the OP is not familiar with test equipment or diagnosing electrical faults. Therefore help and advice on a level he understands and can realistically accomplish is going to be more beneficial to him. I cant see the point in complicating the issue by saying `do this do that` when its obvious he is out of his depth :dunno_black:
In addition and as the more knowledgeable amongst us are well aware the vast majority of issues such as this are caused by dead batteries, nothing else, so it makes sense to determine if the battery is at fault right at the start of the fault finding process by conducting a simple go/no-go load test on it, this as you know will remove any doubts regarding its servicability.
Quote from: sledge on July 18, 2012, 12:59:26 PM
Quote from: adidasguy on July 18, 2012, 11:18:56 AM
#5092
Sledge: I just wanted him to verify the meter was working. zero volts is odd.Minus one very odd and he tried measuring the voltage when on the ohm setting. Yes - aware of what you say. A meter may not say the battery is really good, but it will say if it is bad.
Point taken,......however its pretty obvious that the OP is not familiar with test equipment or diagnosing electrical faults. Therefore help and advice on a level he understands and can realistically accomplish is going to be more beneficial to him. I cant see the point in complicating the issue by saying `do this do that` when its obvious he is out of his depth :dunno_black:
In addition and as the more knowledgeable amongst us are well aware the vast majority of issues such as this are caused by dead batteries, nothing else, so it makes sense to determine if the battery is at fault right at the start of the fault finding process by conducting a simple go/no-go load test on it, this as you know will remove any doubts regarding its servicability.
It may be true that i almost never use testing equipment, but he is speaking english and i do understand it, it may not be second nature for me to pull out this equipment as my local auto-zone does this for free, but i can use it when i need to.
I will disagree on the dead batteries part, This could easily have been a grounded wire where there shouldn't have been, two wires touching that shouldn't be, or even the voltage regulator or perhaps the stator not re-charging the battery. I assumed it wasn't the battery because it's new but there's a good chance it is.
I checked AC volts on highest setting working my way down to lowest, and DC the same way, i checked ohms on all possiblities as well and didn't get anything there either, that was more of a last ditch effort hoping to get something. i'll swing by auto-zone (again) on my way to batteries plus and we'll see what they say, probably going to say re-charge and try again (like last time) at which point i'm replacing it (after all its been "charging" since 7P/M. last night (automatic tender, so it won't over-charge or dis-charge)
A quick thought on the re-wiring topic,is it really that bad to re-wire a bike? i'm not saying i want to, but i've re-wired an F-250, a ford ranger, and many many R/C cars (those expensive ones people race, not sure if that's relevant though, i didn't diagnose the problem's just fix them)
Quote from: iclrag on July 18, 2012, 02:30:22 PM
I will disagree on the dead batteries part, This could easily have been a grounded wire where there shouldn't have been, two wires touching that shouldn't be, or even the voltage regulator or perhaps the stator
Perhaps..but the faults you mention are rare in comparison to battery faults, hence my use of the term `vast majority`When trouble shooting starting/non charging faults you need a logical approach and a good place to start. Everything comes from the battery so rule it out first.
#5098
As for rewiring, if I were to do it I would buy a used wiring harness from a reputable bike breaker. There are too many connectors to deal with to string new wire. For $25-$75 you can get a great wiring harness. Pinwall on ebay has good deals on them. Make sure it is 2006 or newer. There was a wiring change from 05 to 06.
You had mentioned your bike was once wrecked before you got it? That could make a new wiring harness a possibility. A swap could be done in a couple hours - tops. Someone helping you and a bag of black zip ties will make it go fast.
The wiring harness in a bike is one long thing all tied together. If you rewired a car the way a bike is wired, you would be removing everything to the steering column, key, doors, rear lights, head lights, etc. A car has many separate wiring things. A bike is one long snake with 20 or more connectors and all taped up. It is nothing where you could easily rewire one section with new wire. Look at what's under the right side of the fuel tank. Nothing you would want to attempt to re-do from scratch. Buy a harness (loom for the brits out there) and swap the whole thing.
Remember that nearly any short to the frame would blow the fuse. A weak short (like thin insulation) might drain the battery when bike is off. However when running, you'd probably generate enough electricity from the stator to overcome that. If the weak short used up too much electricity, the fuse would go.
Next time you can get to the bike cave, I'll be happy to go over all the electrical system with you and review things you can do with your meter.
I think there was a small short, some wires were pinched tight so i pulled them loose and electrical taped them then zip-tied them down, i got the bike to start but barely so i bought a new battery and a tender to, i also wired in the extra plug that came with the tender so i can plug it straight into the bike with-out the alligator clips, very handy!
thanks for all the help i got :icon_mrgreen:
I am now back on the road :woohoo: infact ive been riding for the last 3-4 hours
#5103
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Videos/559d72cb.gif)
Quote from: adidasguy on July 18, 2012, 11:32:30 PM
#5103
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Videos/559d72cb.gif)
:cheers:
Quote from: iclrag on July 18, 2012, 10:39:45 PM
I think there was a small short.
A `small` short? :D
Mind if I ask, just out of curiosity what colour the cables were that had shorted and where on the bike it happened?
Quote from: sledge on July 19, 2012, 12:21:03 AM
Quote from: iclrag on July 18, 2012, 10:39:45 PM
I think there was a small short.
A `small` short? :D
Mind if I ask, just out of curiosity what colour the cables were that had shorted and where on the bike it happened?
sure, they were black (as are nearly all the cable on my bike, that's why i was curious about re-wiring, i believe the bike shop i got it from wired it) and were between the frame and the rear fender, i stuck a screw driver in and slid them out then electrical taped them. when i tried to pull them out before they were stuck so i didn't tug or anything.
the wires were a bit frayed from being pinched in there (or pulled out?) so i just put some tape on it ands made sure they won't get pinched again, either way i'm up n running like a dream :)