I just finished a long trip. Emphasis on I, because my GS500F is in a shop about 100 miles from home. The total trip was 2300 miles.
On the home stretch about 100 miles from home, on the highway, I hear what sounds like a jackhammer, strange because I have my earplugs in.
I think maybe its the car next to me, but then I start to loose power, and a second later the oil light comes on, to me indicating the engine is off.
I coast over to the shoulder. I am only 44 miles into my current tank, but I flip it over to reserve and try to start it again. The engine has a really hard time turning over and wont start. At this point I am thinking battery maybe. I let it sit a minute or two and try starting again, this time giving it a little throttle, and it starts up. Sounds a bit funny, cant put my finger on why it sounds weird at idle. I give it a little throttler and hear a horrible scraping metallic sound. I shut it off immediately.
I check the oil, and it looks bone dry, and the oil cap is extremely hot to the touch. I start walking the bike off the exit ramp (lucky I broke down right at an exit) and into a shopping center. Two bystanders stop, one of them happens to be a mechanic, (straight out of a movie, no joke, missing teeth, oily shop overalls with the name embroidered on them, backwards ball cap, driving a beat up el camino, says he has worked on Japanese bikes 40 years). He asks if I ran outa fuel, I tell him I think I ran outa oil and wonder if I can get a ride up to the gas station to get some 10w-40.
He says hell, any oil is better than no oil and he has a bunch of quarts of 5w-20 maybe? He starts putting them into the bike until we actually get a reading on the oil dipstick. I start it up again, and its iddling, I give it some throttle while in neutral, but I get that same thrashing noise. He backs away and says something like "Bottom end's gone out!". After asking him and the other bystander they describe it as one of the bearings in the cylinder might have popped like popcorn from having run without oil and now I have metal in my oil thus causing the noise? He says if I run it the engine might get more damaged or blow.
I call from a store and get it towed and take a taxi ride the 100 miles home, because my phone had also gotten taken out in a storm, didn't know any phone numbers, and so ends my trip. Glad I took it, but it sucks the bike is damaged.
From researching the forums and other sites, this type of problem sounds like you cant really know the extent of the damage until you open up the engine and look around.
Has anyone experienced this before? What type of $ am I looking at in a good case scenario versus a bad case scenario? From research I think its a good think that the engine still runs as opposed to having seized up entirely? Right?
This happened on Friday afternoon, the shop 100 miles away got the bike delivered Sat morning but haven't taken a look at it, and of course Sunday and Monday they are closed, so its going to be Tuesday before I possibly hear anything, its killing me not knowing the extent of the damage.
My first engine was one that was run without oil for a short time like yours. It ended up spinning the crankshaft balancer bearing. Any bearing replacements require splitting the case open, which inevitably means more man-hours and costs in gaskets, tools, parts than it's worth.
I would source out a new/used engine ($500-700). Of course you should check it out first, but given the evidence oil light, no oil, jackhammer sound (the balancershaft hitting the case), metal in oil; I'd say you've gone and put the nail in the coffin.
An engine transplant is pretty easy once you've got everything mapped out and have a gameplan, maybe a Saturday morning and you'll be running by early evening.
TCLOCS every ride
Tires (proper PSI)
Controls (cables/levers)
Lights (all functioning, burnt bulbs)
Oil (Is there any? Right amount)
Chassis (Hand-check major nuts/bolts, wheels)
Stands (Side/center)
At the very minimum check your tire pressure and oil dipstick before you ride, every day.
http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/t-clocsinspectionchecklist.pdf
Sorry about your luck, some lessons are hard to learn.
Sucks for sure but you know you should check your oil often. We're supposed to check all fluids, tires, lights and more any time we go to use any vehicle. It's too late now but I bet you will check more often next time. I'm a huge maintenance freak.
With all that being said, there is a nice Gs500f engine on ebay was right now for 450 shipped. Better jump on it.
Thanks guys. Yeah I know I am an idiot, I even posted on here about what to take and someone said a quart of oil. I took my chain cleaning kit and did that every 600 miles, checked tires on center stand every morning for any debris, bad spots. Changed brake pads prior to trip, along with new rear tire. Did an oil change before I left for the trip... ugh its making me sick.
Yeah I saw that engine at 450.00.
As far as dropping a new engine in, stupid question, how heavy are they? Light enough that one person can manhandle it into place and torque it down? Or is that something I will need a lift or some sort of contraption to lift and hold in place? I live in an apartment complex so I am working out in my head the logistics of them delivering it and then what I can do with it with the space I have. I have a small garage to work in and store equipment.
Your engine is done. I wouldn't even bother opening it up. Bad rod, bad crank, case damage. Parts and labor is going to be more than the cost of a used engine.
The GS500 consumes oil. You've got to check it weekly if used as a commuter, or daily on a long trip, or under heavy load.
Its at a shop now that I have never worked with, presumably they did not look at it Saturday and the shop is closed Sun/Mon.
Think I should just call them up on Tuesday and see if they can not even open it up, just store it for a few days until I can arrange for it to be transported to me? (100 miles)
Brings me to my next question... Getting the bike into a pickup, I have heard of using a nearby hill or ditch, I have no idea if there will be one near the shop, think two guys could manhandle it into the back? Trying to push it up the flatbed tow truck was pretty tricky, we ended up just pushing it so both wheels were on and then he rotated the flatbed up...
If your ramps are long enough to decrease the incline then two people can do it.
I've taken two engines out by myself but getting them in (for me) as always required two people and a lot or cursing.
Weight? IDK for sure but I would guess 125 easily
thats a bummer man. good luck in your fixing. same thing happened to my SV pretty much.
theres a little seal that popped out that goes around the clutch rod. usually you can see the smoke coming from where the oil hits the exhaust, but it was raining pretty heavily and i couldn't see the smoke to save my life. pretty sure i threw the front rod, but i was able to get about 3 miles from my house before i quit for good. drained the oil and found it milky with metal shavings. bought a new engine and have been running that one ever since. only took about three hours to install with the help of a friend.
im sure replacing a GS motor would be much easier since the bike is basically just a motor, frame, and wheels :)
In CA when I was commuting 40 miles 1 way, I used to carry a hip flask (one that is curved to fit your butt) filled with 8 oz of oil ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Well I lost the auction on the cheap $450 engine and am finding it hard to be patient and wait for something else good to come along.
From researching the forums it looks like it is completely possible to drop in an older engine (< 2004) into a new chassis (2004). The only caveats are no oil cooler, and something to do with the tachometer that I haven't quite made heads or tails of yet.
Quote from: stokes776 on August 26, 2012, 01:23:08 PM
Brings me to my next question... Getting the bike into a pickup, I have heard of using a nearby hill or ditch, I have no idea if there will be one near the shop, think two guys could manhandle it into the back? Trying to push it up the flatbed tow truck was pretty tricky, we ended up just pushing it so both wheels were on and then he rotated the flatbed up...
Rent or borrow a trailer with a low bed and a ramp.
Without a loading dock or equivalent it's far too easy to damage the bike further when getting it up into and down out of a pickup.
The shop may have a loading dock or a truck with a lift on the back - if so they might be willing, perhaps for a small fee, to use that to get it into your truck - but then you have to get it out of your truck at home. You can do a crapload of damage plumetting from tailgate height to the ground.
Can be worth taking 5 minutes to remove the tank, seat and rear plastics before trying to load. Not sure how fast you can get front plastics off as I don't have them. The tank is a lot of weight, especially if full, as well as being one less thing to dent if you do lose it.
Don't use a narrow ramp. You and the bike need to be on the same footing, and those wheel trough ramps for lawnmowers don't allow for that.
Quote from: stokes776 on August 28, 2012, 05:55:41 AM
From researching the forums it looks like it is completely possible to drop in an older engine (< 2004) into a new chassis (2004). The only caveats are no oil cooler, and something to do with the tachometer that I haven't quite made heads or tails of yet.
Your tach is electric, the old ones are mechanical - IIRC, all you need is a plug for the hole in the head the cable comes out of on the old one. You'll also need to move your pickup to the old engine, as the new and old pickups work differently, and your bike wiring wants the new pickup. It will move just fine.
Quote from: The Buddha on August 26, 2012, 03:09:28 PM
In CA when I was commuting 40 miles 1 way, I used to carry a hip flask (one that is curved to fit your butt) filled with 8 oz of oil ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Just don't mix that one up with the one filled with whiskey!
Sorry to hear that your motor is likely toasted! You may be able to sell some of the good parts off of it to make up a little of the cost of the new motor.
...Gonna go check my oil level right now!
I watched that engine listing count down last night to see how high it was going to go. I damn near started to bid on it just to have a backup as that was CHEAP! $465 AND free shipping......chit!
If I wasnt buying a new Sonic springs, gear indicator and R6 shock, I would have put down a bid for a backup!
Why bother looking for a 1st gen motor ? Take a break and look for a 2001+ powerplant and save yourself the hassle of having to figure out what is or is not different.
I have put my GS in and taken it out of a pickup before. Its really easy if you have 4-6 guys to get on all sides and guide it in.
I also would wait for a newer engine to come along.
the engine sold for 465????? and the bid was 450?
WOW
You didn't want it very bad! :nono:
Lesson #2
-CS
Quote from: burnchassis on August 28, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
the engine sold for 465????? and the bid was 450?
WOW
You didn't want it very bad! :nono:
Lesson #2
-CS
That was my thought also. Like I said, that was cheap. Ebay is probably going to rip the sell in $50+ in fees from listing, selling and PayPal. Then you figure $100+ to ship.
Didn't have a ton of cash what with just getting back from the trip that killed the bike minus new phone that got destroyed in the storm on the trip and minus cab fare from the break down =(.
Oh well, I have arrangements to pickup the bike on Friday and get it cracked open on the weekend at a friends house so we can see exactly what is damaged.
Once that is done I can decide whether to buy a brand new engine (unless a cheap one shows up again) or attempt to repair what is there.
Even better, the shop that it got towed to agreed to not even charge me storage! Wohoo for small victories!
Quote from: stokes776 on August 29, 2012, 06:08:09 AM
Even better, the shop that it got towed to agreed to not even charge me storage! Wohoo for small victories!
Seems they may know the money it'll take to fix it...
I'm bad at checking my oil on the regular - I tend to do it each time I clean/lube my chain around every 3 tanks...
A story like this has scared me into checking it every ride.
I wish you the best on this one, stokes.
- Bboy
Quote from: burnchassis on August 28, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
the engine sold for 465????? and the bid was 450?
WOW
You didn't want it very bad! :nono:
Lesson #2
-CS
1997 motor 3500 miles $202.50 + $200 shipping Florida to Seattle.
Can't believe I got it! I would have thought southern people would jump at it.
Quote from: adidasguy on August 29, 2012, 01:20:05 PM
Quote from: burnchassis on August 28, 2012, 01:10:01 PM
the engine sold for 465????? and the bid was 450?
WOW
You didn't want it very bad! :nono:
Lesson #2
-CS
1997 motor 3500 miles $202.50 + $200 shipping Florida to Seattle.
Can't believe I got it! I would have thought southern people would jump at it.
But now what are you going to DO with it? LOL
Yeah I saw that one on there for bid. I dont get paid until Friday so was kinda scared off by the not being able to pay until then.
In hindsight I guess I have 4 days to pay, but dont want to piss people off. I just took it as a sign that I need to be patient and maybe take a look at my engine first.
There was another posting on here, of a guy that tore apart his engine and repaired it. Did not seem too hard, just time consuming, and his highest expense, the crank, I see on Ebay for MUCH cheaper.
Whats the gotchya here, what am I missing about these cheap cranks on ebay?
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=58696.0
Quote from: stokes776 on August 28, 2012, 05:55:41 AM
Well I lost the auction on the cheap $450 engine and am finding it hard to be patient and wait for something else good to come along.
From researching the forums it looks like it is completely possible to drop in an older engine (< 2004) into a new chassis (2004). The only caveats are no oil cooler, and something to do with the tachometer that I haven't quite made heads or tails of yet.
You can do that.
Tach: Since older is mechanical and your bike is electronic, simply plug off the tach hole on the engine.
TIMING: Simply take the timing rotor and pickup from your 2004+ engine and drop it into the older engine.
OIL COOLER: Don't worry that it doesn't have one. It is there for added cooling due to restricted air flow from the fairing. Unless you're stuck in traffic at 100* and not moving, you'll be fine.
The basic engine is the same. Get a good working one - any year - and you'll be up and running shortly after you put it in the frame.
I have some parts engines. If you know what you need, I may be able to pull the parts for you.
One bottom had the counter balance go out. So that case is toast but the crank should be fine. Another bottom end has the hole for the index pin of the timing rotor all boogered. Should be able to JB weld a pin in there. My plan was to use the crank from one engine to replace the one with the boogered index pin. With this $200 engine coming, I probably will not do that. (Just crack the case on one to see what's inside for giggles and fun).
Thanks adidasguy! I will keep that in mind as I start to work on this.
I've noticed, many times, you guys like pics, so while it doesn't have much to do with the engine, here is the bike (prior to breakdown) at the scenic overlook at Dragons Tail.
Note my awesome tail bag, an Adidas gym bag bungied to the rear. You can just barely make out the logo
(http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q611/stokes776/2012-08-21200607.jpg)
Skipping all the steps of getting it from the shop 100 miles away to a neighbors garage...
I removed the engine from the chassis last night by myself. Wow that was an adventure. Took me 7 hours, I am sure some of you will laugh and say that took way too long but for a novice I think I did pretty good.
Couple of questions/comments:
1. While draining the oil, a smell of.. maybe burning... maybe metallic smell was present.
2. Drained the oil. Very black/dark. Did not notice any large metal fragments, but then again did not know what I was looking for. Dumped the oil into a larger pan and set the small one upside down. Came back to get it when I was removing the oil cooler and noticed quite a bit of sparkly assuming metal dust/sand in the pan.
3. Exhaust Header bolts. Mine were really rusty, OK to re-use or should get new ones?
4. Engine Mounting Bolts. Haynes manual says they are self tightening one time use (the six that hold on the removable engine bar chassis on the right hand side). Do I need to replace them?
5. Was talking to a guy that dropped by but didn't have time to help, he said the hardest part would be cracking the case. I am thinking he means the bottom part, I haven't really researched that yet I guess. All the videos and drawings I have seen I guess have revolved around what is called the upper part of the engine? Is cracking it hard?
6. Due to the metal in the oil, I think I need to... remove the bottom oil pan, think its called the sump? to make sure I get all that crap out of there?
All of this I plan on researching intently, however if anyone has any comments or tips that would be much appreciated.
Removing the engine went fine until I smacked the crap out of my finger when removing, of all things, one of the fairing brackets. The fairing bracket was just in the wrong position to allow for the engine to slide out and I attacked it too quickly, got a nice blood blister under the fingernail now that is throbbing constantly.
Also,
I am still considering a new engine, because at this point all I have done is remove this one.
We will see what I find when I crack it open tonight.
if you fragged the engine with low oil and had metal on metal, its VERY likely to finds metal dust in the oil.
When I pulled and replaced my engine, I added mew headers bolts and anti sieze
You can buy new nylon lock nuts or add a drop of blue lock tight
Once you have all the case bolts out, there are two lips on the front and back of the case where they meet together, you can gently pry right there and pop them apart. I had no problems doing mine that way.
Chances are, you are not going to be able to reuse it. I found this out the hard way. With that being said, enjoy and have fun. Take pics along the way and let us know what was damaged.
Hey guys, was doing some reading and came across the last post in this thread: http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=41261.msg463950#msg463950
It mentioned, if you dont run the oil cooler, you cant use the fairings.
Any truth to this? My bike is a 2004 GS500F, and I am seriously considering a 98 Engine to put in it, but would hate to lose the fairings.
Everyone says the oil cooler was added when the fairing were added because the fairing restrict air flow. Thus the need for a cooler. Makes sense to me.
There was an "E" fairing. It hugs the engine tighter than the "F" fairing. It doesn't seem to be a problem. I guess if you were in the desert and stop & go traffic you might over heat. Otherwise I wouldn't worry much. Just be aware you could overheat in adverse conditions.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Juniors%20Demise/DSC00200a.jpg)
The fairings and oil cooler showing up at the same time is pure coincidence, air cooled bikes with fairings have run fine for decades without oil coolers.....forward motion is what cools the motor. Needing an oil cooler as a prerequisite for use of a fairing is BS, pure myth, old wives tales and urban legend :cookoo:
So why does the engine need an oil cooler? Surely they didnt redesign the lower case for fun?
Quote from: weedahoe on September 06, 2012, 05:31:11 PM
So why does the engine need an oil cooler? Surely they didnt redesign the lower case for fun?
Heat is the enemy of the air cooled motor, adding an oil cooler is an improvement to any air cooled motor..any time, adding a fairing sparked interest in a dated design? Don't think for a second one is required to have the other, cause that's not the case.
EDIT: I believe both where just part of the evolution of the bike to keep it marketable for a few more years??
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on September 06, 2012, 05:59:44 PM
Quote from: weedahoe on September 06, 2012, 05:31:11 PM
So why does the engine need an oil cooler? Surely they didnt redesign the lower case for fun?
Heat is the enemy of the air cooled motor, adding an oil cooler is an improvement to any air cooled motor..any time, adding a fairing sparked interest in a dated design? Don't think for a second one is required to have the other, cause that's not the case.
EDIT: I believe both where just part of the evolution of the bike to keep it marketable for a few more years??
Could be that evolution part. I personally like the fairings over not having them.
Alright, so I pulled the trigger and got a 98 GS500 engine. ETA 10 days. Will work on the 04 engine during the winter.
Couple of questions.
1. Startup procedure for a (assuming) dry engine? I had a co-worker mention something about removing spark or fuel and trying to start it, presumably to circulate the oil? What do you guys do with dry engines?
2. I know about the no oil cooler, and then there is the tach hookup, which going from the old broken 04 engine, I gather is electrical, to the new 98 which is mechanical, from reading I need to move a component. I thought it was the Timing Rotor, maybe also referred to as Signal Generator? This thing in the linked fiche? I think its under the right hand side engine panel right?
http://www.cmsnl.com/suzuki-gs500-f-usa_model16026/partslist/434116.html#results
So I am good to move my 04 timing rotor/signal generator to the 98 engine and that will get my tach working? Please excuse me if I am way off.
After re-reading some previous articles I think I misinterpreted the whole tach thing.
I don't think I can get my 04 Gauges to work on the 98 Engine. I don't have the 98 Engine to try anything yet, but I found the part that I misinterpreted, and wanted to correct myself here in case anyone else find this in the future.
Oh well, I drove a stick shift truck for 10 years without a tach, I guess I can try to ride a bike without a tach for a while, since those mechanical tach gauges are pretty expensive on ebay.
I don't know what you read, but the electric tach will be fine - just plug the hole in the head.
You do need to move the timing pickup since the old and new are a little different, so you want to keep the new with your newer bike's electrics, but that's only peripherally related to the tach (it drives the CDI and the electric tach gets its signal from the CDI.)
Lots of people have done this and reported success. So don't decide it won't work before you even try it, eh?
Edit, add: Dry engine startup - put in oil. Take out sparkplugs, put a teaspoon or so of oil in there (engine oil fine, or it's one of the mysterious uses for marvel mystery oil) & leave the plugs out, or loose if you have a particularly filthy envrionment you haven't bothered to clean up (why not?) where crap could fall in the plug holes if they were open.
Put it in gear on the centerstand and use the rear wheel to turn it over by hand a few times (I suppose you could push it around a parking lot in gear as well if it made you happy.) 6th will be the easiest gear (think about it until it makes sense, or just take it on faith.)
Check the oil level again, adjust if need be, turn over a few more times by hand, wind the plugs in, turn the fuel on, and fire that sucker up...
The basic engine is the same.
You can swap the timing pickups and timing rotors from 89-2002 to a 2004+ and back.
2004+ does have 3 wires from the neutral switch. 1 is neutral.
The other 2 are 1st and 2nd. Their purpose is emissions and timing crap=o=la. You can use the 98 neutral and ignore the 2 extra wires or swap the newer neutral switch into the 98 engine.
Carb boots should stay with your carbs. Newer boots 2004+ are a little different from older ones. Use new o-rings when moving the intake manifolds (carb boots).
As you swap and move things, switch to allen hex stainless screws. I did that in the timing pickup and so did bluesmudge because the JIS screws always get stripped. Same for carb boots. Pretty much anything I can I switch to SS allen heads.
Speedo is the same.
tach: you can connect electronic to the input of one of the coils or get a mechanical one. I think I have extras though face design might not match exactly.
Quote from: weedahoe on September 06, 2012, 01:51:19 PM
Everyone says the oil cooler was added when the fairing were added because the fairing restrict air flow. Thus the need for a cooler. Makes sense to me.
Not `everyone` says that at all :D
Thousands of brand new Es were sold in Europe in the 90s with a factory fitted 3/4 TCP fairing, I bought and sold at least 10 of them, none of them had an oil cooler fitted and non of them ever displayed even the slightest hint of overheating. ......so explain that.
The F and later TCP E fairings are almost indentical and it wouldnt surprise me if TCP actually designed and manufactured the F fairing for Suzuki.
http://gs500e.free.fr/access/tcp.php
When you split the cases, remember that there is a bolt near the starter motor. Lots of people miss it - you'll pry and pry trying to get it apart. With the side covers, there is a bolt under the ingition pickup that needs to come off.
The GS engine comes apart pretty easily if you haven't missed a bolt.
WHen I took mine apart, I followed the Service Manual to the step and it worked out great.
Quote from: burning1 on September 11, 2012, 02:25:01 PM
When you split the cases, remember that there is a bolt near the starter motor. Lots of people miss it - you'll pry and pry trying to get it apart. With the side covers, there is a bolt under the ingition pickup that needs to come off.
The GS engine comes apart pretty easily if you haven't missed a bolt.
I recall 2 bolts behind the oil filter. Those usually get missed, too.
True. I've never had a problem with them, but I can totally see how someone would miss them.
All right, got the cylinder head off the engine last night.
Those Cylinder Head bolts were on there extremely tight, took a lot of force for me to break them free. Once broken in reverse order I loosened each carefully in the same order and was able to get the heads off. One thing I am curious about. There were 8 nuts there, and the Haynes manual had me first take a 9th bolt off of the front of the engine in the same step as the 8 domed nuts for the Cylinder Head. After removing the cylinder head I don't understand what purpose that 9th bolt served on the outside? Does anyone know? Just me being curious.
EDIT: Reading the Haynes manual on my lunch, I think I removed both the Cylinder Head and the Cylinder Block as one component. When I was looking at that 9th bolt, it did look like the thing should separate, but when I pulled on it, the combination of the Head and Block came up and off. Shoot I hope I didn't break anything by doing that.
So far the Camshafts look good, no wear or scoring or anything that looks weird on them. The piston heads were solid black, one of them all the way across on the head whereas the other had a small ring of normal metal around the edges, looked a bit weird as I was expecting them to be the same.
I can see into the Connecting Rod maybe, through one of the holes where the piston is currently elevated, and I don't see any discoloration on the Crankshaft or Connecting Rod like I did in a couple of posts from other people, have yet to check the other one.
Will be opening up the case hopefully in the next day or two.
All right, I could use a bit of advice on this one.
Got the new ('98) engine! Yesterday afternoon. Spent all evening, this morning mounting it bad putting the bike back together.
Due to wiring differences I had to remove my 04 Alternator and 04 Neutral Sensor Switch and install them in the '98 engine. Also had to move over the Signal Pulse Generator.
When installing the SPG into the '98 engine I snapped the bolt off into what I think it screws into, the crank. I was able to chisel an end onto it and get it unscrewed and used the second bolt I had, this time following the torque specifications to the T, got it installed no problem.
Apparently not having learned my lesson I go to drain and fill with new oil, when tightening down the oil filter cap on the '98 engine, using my torque wrench set properly I think I missed the click on the bottom most bolt and stripped the hole on the engine. Now on my '04 these are all domed nuts on studs, but on this '98 engine there are two domed nuts with studs, but the bottom most connection is just a bolt, (picture below).
Is this normal or did this get repaired this way in a past lifetime. Part fiches from Bike Bandit dont give me any hints except that it should be a stud.
Not thinking anything of it, and checking for leaks, seeing none I start the bike up for the first time, about 45 seconds later that bolt comes flying out along with half my oil, immediately shut the bike off, I dont think any harm was done by that.
I am thinking I stripped the hole on the aluminum engine chassis, based on the presence of what looks like aluminum in the threads on this bolt that came out.
How long should this bolt or stud be? I am also trying to determine if it snapped off, I dont think it did, but I dont know the depth that it should be. On the picture with my fingers in it, that is how deep my screw driver will go into the hole.
My options?:
1. Buy a new bolt, thread it in and see if it will work? Based on the failure of bolt #1, it looks like its the threads that got destroyed, the bolt is actually OK. I don't like this idea.
2. Helicoil. I have never used, but have heard it mentioned on this forum before. Any +1 for helicoil?
3. Tap and Die by hand. Have never done, would have to research. Co-workers say tap and die to slightly larger and should be good.
4. Take to machine shop. Costs $$$, might have to remove engine again
5. Buy a stud, red loctite and get that sucker in there as tight as I can, should never have to come out right?
I am going to go to the hardware store on my lunch and discuss the helicoil and tap and die options with them.
Does anyone have the specifications for pitch/length/diameter of the studs that are 'supposed' to be in the oil filter cover assembly?
Thanks guys!
(http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q611/stokes776/2012-09-14043902.jpg)
(http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q611/stokes776/2012-09-14081504.jpg)
(http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q611/stokes776/2012-09-14081522.jpg)
(http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q611/stokes776/2012-09-14081544.jpg)
Too bad about the oil filter bolt. Most times the studs (which are standard, someone likely broke a stud previously and replaced with a bolt) will break/strip and you can remove/replace them a la this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aE_bntq_iE&
In your case, I would look into heli-coiling as the bottom bolt is pretty accessible and easy to drill out.
When your threads are better, replace that bolt with the correct size stud and don't over-torque the cap nuts.
I had the same thing happen to me almost like you were looking over my shoulder watching. I ended up replacing all three with new matching studs (with allan key hollow heads to tighten with). Luckily the bottom hole was I found quite long, so only the first bit of thread was stripped out. Hasn't been a problem since, just use nyloc nuts to hold the oil filter cover in place and do not over tighten, be very careful even when using the torque wrench.
Thanks Dizzle!
I think I will get equipment to run two helicoils. I will do one on my '04 engine which is currently on a jack, all good threads. That way I can make a mistake and not destroy my only working engine. If I succeed, I just gain a helicoiled thread for when I fix the 04 engine. If I fail and mess it up, I messed up an engine that is already broken, already out of the bike and I can take it to a machine shop to see if it can be saved.
Once I have practice I will take a crack at helicoiling the '98 stripped thread.
Thanks for the video, it provided me the sizes of the helicoil kit I think I will need. I will go with what they say, but does anyone know if the size is different? The video was using a black engine which is the E series if I recall correctly. I am working on a '98 and I dont think its an E, it is silver.
From what I can tell all GS500 have the same size Oil Filter bolts, its just the bolt on the bottom that is different, 17 or 22 I think it is.
If its a 98, it has to be an E. Model F wasnt assigned until 04. Engine color changed from all black to silver with black stator cover in 97-02, then all silver 04+. But as you say, regarding oil change parts, the studs are the same for all years; however, the drain bolt did change in size. A look at parts fiches from the varying years will probably tell you with more certainty.
-Bboy
All 3 for the oil cover are the same on all engines.
The reason for one being different is someone in the past broke it and replaced it.
On one engine bottom I have it was the upper right that had a bolt. Fortunately it was a broken stud in the past and threads were still correct so I just put in the right stud and made it like factory original again.
The oil filter cover bolts can be hand snug. There is the o-ring that seals. So no need to go really tight. And the torque is really low. Don't confuse inch-pounds, foot-pounds and newton-meters. Use a new o-ring.
Definitely go for the helicoil. Make sure you use the tap specific to the helicoil and not a standard tap. I.e. if it's a M8 helicoil use a M8 helicoil tap and not a regular M8 tap. The thread pitch is the same but the diameter is larger to allow for the helicoil. Also, might be a good idea to opt for a screw-locking helicoil. It will provide a mechanical lock of the stud without the need for a threadlocker by galling the thread purposely. Google " emhart industries" and give them a call. They will usually send you free samples if you tell them its for a company use.
Quote from: Huff1371 on September 16, 2012, 10:59:28 AM
Google " emhart industries" and give them a call. They will usually send you free samples if you tell them its for a company use.
Will they send the pilot drill, the tap and the insertion and tab tools as well? :D
Before tapping the new thread for the helicoil the old thread needs to be cleaned out of the hole with a pilot drill. If you dont do this there is a chance the new thread wont cut cleanly and the helicoil wont go in......particularly in soft metals.
Cant remember if those studs are M6 or M8 :dunno_black: but........
For aluminium alloy M6 helicoils need a 6.3mm dia hole, M8 needs 8.3mm. Thats 1/4" and 21/64" in old money but the decent kits include them.
You're not an idiot, you made a mistake you won't make again.
Like the guys say, look for another engine and go from there.
It sucks but .....
They usually send me an entire kit. It does come with the cheaper insert tool that's just a dowel with a slot instead of the spindle with the housing. But I do a ton of business with them, probably $7000 or more a month.
Might not look like $300 or more in tools but if you can get your hands on a set for the size you need they work really really well.
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh634/Huff1371/2012-09-17_09-33-55_656.jpg)
Or something that might be easier is something called an E-Z Lok. They are a solid threaded insert that require no special tools, just standard taps and drills. Loctite them in (I'd suggest 277 or 2760, but 262 would work) and stick your bolt in it. http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-threaded-inserts/=jc58pq
Well, after the whole oil filter cover night/morning (happened at like 3AM in the morning) I left a note on the bike explaining what had happened, I figured it would be nice for my friend to know why half his driveway was covered in oil.
I came home and researched helicoils and taps and dies, with your guys help. The next day my friend, without me knowing or asking, (more mechanical than I) just went ahead and re-tapped it to 7/16, installed a stud in it, has a washer and nut over the oil filter cover, and shot me an email that it was ready for oil.
So thank you for all the awesome information and pictures on helicoils etc, I wish I had been able to put it to use, but I will digest it incase I ever need to in the future. Hopefully it helps someone else out who may have the same problem in the future on these forums!
I came over the next day with more oil, filled it up, checked the torque on the two nuts and the new 7/16 nut and took it for my first ride in a little under a month. It sounded a bit 'funny' at that time but I can't tell if that's just because it is a different engine or not. I only have ever known the sound of my engine, and for all I know something might have been off with my engine causing it to not be normal and maybe this 98 one is normal.
After riding it more that night, finally getting it home and taking it to work today, the engine noise sounds much more normal to what I expect, might have just needed to have some miles put on it. I have no idea how long that '98 engine was sitting.
Because I have no idea how long that engine was sitting I think I need to do a valve shim check (have not done that yet). I watched Kerry's video and ordered a set of feeler gauges.
1. New Exhaust Gaskets (Not sure if I even have them on right now). Currently on their way to my mailbox.
2. Valve Shim Check. Feeler Guages on their way. I have 4 shims from my old engine otherwise will need to order
3. Cable Check. Have to give throttle to start, even when choked, must give throttle for the first minute or so then its good. When I shift into first, the bike moves forward a bit, even when clutch is in all the way. After the bike is warm it does not seem to do this. Is this just cable adjustments?
Just a general word of advise... Be very careful with torque wrenches. Big wrenches often won't click on low torque bolts... So, for little stuff like those studs, you need to use a really sensitive low torque wrench. Even then, you can still break stuff, so you need to learn to feel for a bolt that's twisting it's head off.
Just had a thought reading a different thread about an engine swap.
This port on my '98 engine where the tach would connect.... I am not using it because I moved the other pickup over, tach is reading just fine.
You guys had said to 'plug' this tach port. I put some pieces of electrical tape over it, but they are not holding. How should I plug it better? Actually stuff some shop rags down into it tightly?
A short screw or a rubber nipple should cover it up. You can take of the cover and remove the gear and all that stuff. Might make it easy to screw on a cover plate with a gasket.
Take all the redundant bits out, plug the hole with epoxy putty and when it goes off dab some black paint on it..... :thumb:
Just make sure none of it gets into the valve chamber.