Here are the symptoms:
1. Lots of drag when starting bike
2. Nearly impossible to move IN GEAR with clutch pulled in.
3. Will move when in neutral, though stilll some drag when starting
4. With sides of engine off and clutch lever pulled in...
* Clutch release plate does move out 1/8" with clutch lever
* Plates seem stuck together
* In 1st gear, can force wheel to eventually turn. When turning, will keep turning. Stop and it gets stuck again
* Plates can be wiggled back & forth and apart with fingers but wheel still is locked until you finally get it moving
Remember - all this done with clutch lever in.
Other useful information:
1. No idea how the PO took care of the donor bike.
2. Phenix does have fresh oil (5 weeks ago)
3. Have done a couple 200 mile high speed twistie rides recently
4. Problem came on rather suddenly over a few days
5. First symptom was lurching when starting in gear with clutch pulled in
Thinking of the least painful method to fix this.
1. Can clutch plates be removed and cleaned? Could they be soaked with old crap?
2. I have 2 spare complete clutch baskets. Could I simply remove the clutch plates and put in the plates from a spare clutch assembly?
Seeing if I can eliminate the necessity of completely removing everything. The basket and gears are all OK. Removing existing plates and spacers and replacing with ones from a spare clutch assembly? Sound like a plan?
Do clutch assemblies get sticky with age?
When i did mine i just replaced the whole clutch basket. make sure you get a new lock washer that holds the basket on the engine. 25 min job. :thumb:
Being that it could just be a case of clutch abuse / neglect, I would replace the plates and springs all together.
I'm just assuming you've set the freeplay properly already? I know, I know, just had to ask........
No need to replace the outer basket unless there are deep grooves where the fiber plates touch the basket. You can just do a visual inspection of this, if there are grooves, the clutch fiber plates will hang up on them sometimes and there will be difficulty in actuating/releasing the clutch. IN most cases, you just need to replace the fibers and steels. I would not use the existing clutch pack from another bike unless it is fresh and you know what shape it is in. If you do use another used clutch pack, be sure to put it in the other bike in the EXACT order it came out or you will have problems with it forever! Finally, if you get a new clutch pack (highly suggested), be sure to soak the fibers and steels in whatever motor oil that you will be using for a few hours before putting the clutch in.
If you did this (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=58383.msg662633#msg662633) already and you are still having issues, then it's time to replace the clutch pack. I would go new.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EBC-clutch-friction-plates-NEW-Suzuki-GS500F-2004-2008-/230847605647?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35bf96eb8f&vxp=mtr
If it were me and I had spare clutch baskets ready to go (Which I do), I would simply swap them out, get it running and inspect the original basket later and refurb it as needed for the next time
Quote from: adidasguy on September 04, 2012, 10:52:15 PM
Here are the symptoms:
1. Lots of drag when starting bike
2. Nearly impossible to move IN GEAR with clutch pulled in.
3. Will move when in neutral, though stilll some drag when starting
4. With sides of engine off and clutch lever pulled in...
* Clutch release plate does move out 1/8" with clutch lever
* Plates seem stuck together
* In 1st gear, can force wheel to eventually turn. When turning, will keep turning. Stop and it gets stuck again
* Plates can be wiggled back & forth and apart with fingers but wheel still is locked until you finally get it moving
Remember - all this done with clutch lever in.
Other useful information:
1. No idea how the PO took care of the donor bike.
2. Phenix does have fresh oil (5 weeks ago)
3. Have done a couple 200 mile high speed twistie rides recently
4. Problem came on rather suddenly over a few days
5. First symptom was lurching when starting in gear with clutch pulled in
Thinking of the least painful method to fix this.
1. Can clutch plates be removed and cleaned? Could they be soaked with old crap?
2. I have 2 spare complete clutch baskets. Could I simply remove the clutch plates and put in the plates from a spare clutch assembly?
Seeing if I can eliminate the necessity of completely removing everything. The basket and gears are all OK. Removing existing plates and spacers and replacing with ones from a spare clutch assembly? Sound like a plan?
Do clutch assemblies get sticky with age?
Had this issue too on my 2009 F model, 9400 miles. A major clutch adjustment (see Bombsquad's post with the locknut and screw method) fixed my issue.
if the bike lurches when you have the clutch pulled in then you need a clutch adjustment...Your clutch isn't disengaging all the way..First try to adjust at the lever until you feel a bit of slack..Then see how she feels..If you can't get slack with a cable adjustment at the lever then look to do a lower clutch adjustment..
Take the plates and discs out of the basket, separate them and shuffle them about, reassemble and adjust, you just might get lucky. Also check out the little tiny thrust bearing behind the cover that the pushrod acts on.
I was told, for older bikes that drag a lot - if they have been sitting,
Change oik
put the wheel up against a wall
start in gear - clutch pulled
rev the snot out of it
it should free up stuck plates momentarily
it is a trick used to strip apart friction/drive plates stuck together by age.
if that doesn't help you have 2 options:
Replace clutch plates and springs
and/or
replace clutch basket that may be worn.
2006 engine with 6000 miles.
Problem came on very suddenly.
Oil was new.
Possibly old goo in engine loosened up after running him a lot. I have no idea how the PO took care only he said he didn't like to do maintenance so I figure long time on old oil. Chain was never oiled.
Maybe cleaning all the plates and coating in clean oil will help. They tend to stick together when holding the stack. So maybe just lots of old goo on them. They just feel sticky, not slippery like cleanly oiled stuff.
Engine needed a good look inside anyway due to lack of maintenance by PO.
Once wheel is moving (with clutch in) it moves. Let up on the clutch so plates are pressed together again and they get stuck together. All look good, flat. No bluing of the metal plates from excessive heat.
After bowling I'll clean them all in kerosene then apply fresh oil.
I too have this problem...started happening after an oil change, PO hadn't changed it in god knows how long...may lend support to the loosened up crap theory.
Update:
I cleaned all the plates with kerosene. probably doesn't make any difference if they are all in backwards or whatever. I may have flipped all of them in the cleaning. Not sure but sometimes I do a blond thing. Only 6k miles on the motor so they weren't worn that much anyway.
Also, in all this I checked the stator because charging was sluggish according to the idiot LED.
So.... I put everything back together. Filled with fresh AmsOil. Sluggish start at first. then OK. Started a few more times tonight and seems good!
I guess there was a combination of things.
1. Crud - due to PO not changing oil. So fresh oil released crud and made the clutch plates sticky.
2. Some weak electrical connections. A possibility as lots was disconnected then reconnected.
3. Rechecked all clutch adjustments.
When engine was moved from donor bike to Phenix, all controls and cables went intact. There was no need to do massive adjustments since cables, controls and engine were moved without disconnecting anything. Probably was slightly out of adjustment due to no maintenance by the PO of the donor bike.
I was in a rush to get Phenix on the road - you know, the project gets a motor so lets go riding!
I will recheck valves and re-sync the carbs with my new carb tool on Saturday. Until then, I'll ride him a little and see how he behaves.
One thing - since the charging was sluggish - is a LiFe battery acts differently when it gets low compared to a lead acid battery. Lead acid just dies. LiFe keeps trying to put out power so low battery is not as obvious. Charging problems I am sure were part of the problem. I have to remember how an LiFe battery acts when low and it is not the same sudden death as with a lead acid battery.
Anyway, I'll update later. Clutch plates are all clean and seem OK now. Charging is super fast. No oil leaks so far.
Whatever the causes, it was good to take off both sides of the engine and check everything out. Good learning experience and good to know what is inside the donor motor.
What did you do to make it charge better now?
Update...I had this issue, adjusted the clutch, went away, now it's back. 09 F model. 9500 miles, and I ride every day to my job in a downtown skyscraper. I park for free, and it gets twice the gas mileage of my POS Mazda.
Can't blame on PO since I bought the bike with 1 mile on it. I change oil religiously. I use diesel truck 15W40 Chevron Delo LE oil. Sticks when I start on a colder day in 1st gear with clutch in.
My normal starting procedure is:
Shift to neutral
clutch in
side stand up, center stand up
kill switch off
key on
choke all the way on
press start button
Vroom!
Only this morning I was in a hurry and started in first gear. Lunged forward. Startled the hell out of me. Sticky clutch or oil type I presume since the clutch adjustments are spot on.
Winter is coming here in SW Ohio...I have some more nagging items that I need to look at anyway.
winter is coming...
jester, you might want to add front brake to that procedure! :icon_eek:
Quote from: bombsquad83 on September 06, 2012, 05:43:29 AM
What did you do to make it charge better now?
Might have been disconnecting things to check the stator then reconnecting things and my usual procedure is a spray of DeOxit contact cleaner/protector.
Same issue here on my 06. I got the bike with 4500miles on it and it was doing it from the start. My old bike did it as well. I usually pump the clutch a couple of times before starting. Or, put it in first, clutch in, and roll forward and backward to free the "stick"
There is still an issue with Phenix.
Even in neutral, the starter really works hard to get him going. Once running, he will start right up again.
Clutch is better. Charging back to normal.
Possibilities:
1. Very tight valves (Cranking engine by hand, sometimes it would really snap forward or be hard to turn in one spot)
2. There is a bearing going out that seizes up when cold.
The puzzling thing is it came on rather suddenly over a few days. I plan to do a valve check next. I wanted to ride him today to see how he behaves and check for oil leaks. Oil is OK. He still acts like the engine is seizing up when cold. Once running or warm, he is OK.
Any thoughts?
Quote from: adidasguy on September 06, 2012, 11:25:51 AM
(Cranking engine by hand, sometimes it would really snap forward or be hard to turn in one spot)
Cam chain and/or tensioner going bad? Not sure if that would cause the symptoms you describe, though.
Sounds like the battery is just a little weak.
Battery is fine. New LiFe. Charger idiot light shows all is OK. Voltage OK.
Remember: problem only when engine is cold.
Plan to do:
* valve adjustment (needed)
* Carb sync (haven't done it yet)
* Measure current draw when bike is off in case there is a slight short to the frame from the battery up to the ignition switch.
Other possibility could be bad contacts on starter relay. I can change that out as well. Then, only when cold would tend to rule that out.
I did find the timing rotor seal was fuggled somehow when I had the right side opened up. So I replaced that. Clutch all cleaned and adjusted. He rides really great and has plenty of power. Just this cold issue. Disconnected the USB outlet just in case - though the meter shows it drawing zero current.
I am tending towards a short in the wiring now. I remember a tiny spark when I connected the ground to the battery and the bike was off. Could have been static charge. Still worth measuring current draw with bike off. He has 2006 wiring so when the tank is off for the valves and carbs, I can check wiring, cam chain tensioner and other things. As general maintenance I am fine with going over everything. It was a donor engine from a bike with a PO that didn't do maintenance. We shall see and Il will update.
Quote from: adidasguy on September 06, 2012, 01:03:37 PM
Battery is fine. New LiFe. Charger idiot light shows all is OK. Voltage OK.
Remember: problem only when engine is cold.
Plan to do:
* valve adjustment (needed)
* Carb sync (haven't done it yet)
* Measure current draw when bike is off in case there is a slight short to the frame from the battery up to the ignition switch.
When the bike is cold the battery hasn't been charging for a while. I'm inclined to think there is something sucking current when the bike is off.
Symptoms don't really line up for the first 2 things listed, but never hurts to check.
Only recent addition was the USB port. It was sired to be always on in case I wanted to charge something while bike is off. I disconnected that this morning just in case it was a problem. Though the meter showed it was pulling essentially zero current.
Quite possible some wire recently developed a minor short going from battery to ignition switch. Only way current could be drawn with bike off since all power goes there first.
One other possiblily is the starter relay. dirty contacts might be allowing some current to bridge the contacts. Not enough to harm the starter motor, but enough to drain the battery down a little after a day. I will replace the starter relay.
I can swap out the MosFet regulator, too. Just in case it went defective.
However, I will d one thing at a time so I know what causes the problem.
First will be measuring any current draw with bike off.
I will update my findings tomorrow.
PS: Valves and carb sync is just maintenance I need to do. When I do valves, I can check for a really tight valve and problems with cam chain tensioner. Wiring also will be checked for possible places where insulation is getting melted. I have not had the tank off since I built Phenix. Something could have come loose.
Phenix: Starter clutch out. That may have been much of the problem all along. Stopped home to test on way to gym. Started a couple times. Now starter motor spins. Took off timing cover to see if motor turning. Maybe a little once in a while.
So after gym, drain oil. Take off left side and fix it.
Haha it's an epidemic! I know two other people (plus me) I have witnessed have this problem. I think some loc-tite red is in good order when those bolts go back in. Also (as if I need to tell you) DON'T DROP THE FLYWHEEL!!!
OK. Left side opened up.
Just for sheets and giggles, I pressed the starter button. Expecting to see the starter gear turn and the rotor stay put - well....
The magneto and the starter gear turned!
WTF?
Somehow, and correct me if I am wrong, I thought the magneto was supposed to be fastened to the shaft. Not something I can spin with my hand and not have the motor turn.
Magneto bolt coming loose? Does that ever happen? :icon_rolleyes:
That could explain:
1. Suddenly coming on as a problem
2. Poor charging - if the magneto is not rotating
3. NOT happening when engine is hot (shaft expands and locks magneto in place, cold the shaft is smaller and magneto spins)
Am I as insane and crazy as some think or is this a really weird thing to have happen? :icon_eek:
How often does this happen? I can turn the bolt holding the magneto with my fingers. I guess it is not torqued to the correct amount? :dunno_black:
Tightened down.
Seems OK now.
Weird!
Anyone ever heard of that coming loose? Should we start a thread about your weirdest bike failure/repair? (Hint:Might help people with problems - think outside the book).
After a ride, went back out 2 hours later. No oil drips. All is OK though I feel I may have over tightened come case bolts. Torque wrench was being fussy. I won't worry about it unless (a) there is a leak or (b) I have to open up the sides again.
So glad Phenix is healthy again.
if it wasn't for this board, I'd never open up the engine and try to fix things. Years ago I don't remember doing any bike maintenance other than oil the chain and check tire pressure. Really. I was that bad.
Opening up the engine is a lot easier than building a digital reproduction of a Wurlitzer pipe organ with over 500 Z80 microprocessors and a bunch of 68705's.
Thanks everyone - you've made bike maintenance fun.
In the end:
1. Cleaning electrical connections may have helped.
2. Cleaning the clutch plates certainly helped one issue
3. Tightening the bolt that holds inthe magneto rotor and starter clutch thingy was the icing on the cake.
I wonder if sticky clutch plates would be a root cause... I don't know exactly how it all goes together, so I may be just talking out of my ass here.
Can you show us on a parts fiche which bolt was loose so we can check for it if ever opening the left side of the engine?
I'm guessing it's #4 here: http://www.bikebandit.com/2009-suzuki-gs500f-carburetor/o/m19099sch650007#sch650038
Quote from: adidasguy on September 06, 2012, 10:35:13 PM
if it wasn't for this board, I'd never open up the engine and try to fix things. Years ago I don't remember doing any bike maintenance other than oil the chain and check tire pressure. Really. I was that bad.
So true. Prior to my bike now, I never had a bike more than 7,000 miles. I'd get tired of it, and then sell. Most things didn't go wrong during that time. And yes, I'd grease the chain, change the oil, and that was about it.
My old GS450L was my first experience with getting my hands really dirty. I remember the clutch worm gear thing (under front sprocket cover) died, and I was down for a month cause I found 12 other things wrong when taking it apart. Learned a ton, and also applied this to the GS500 since the engines are VERY similar.
My motto is If it ain't broke, futz with it until it is, then learn how to fix it. As screwed up as that is, that's how I learn.
Glad things worked out for you.
Quote from: bombsquad83 on September 07, 2012, 05:43:15 AM
Can you show us on a parts fiche which bolt was loose so we can check for it if ever opening the left side of the engine?
I'm guessing it's #4 here: http://www.bikebandit.com/2009-suzuki-gs500f-carburetor/o/m19099sch650007#sch650038
Yep = #4
The starter gear bolts to the magneto thingy. When the starter motor was blipped, the whole thing turned but not the engine. I could turn it by hand and the engine didn't move. Then I found I could take the bolt off with my fingers. Somehow my gut instincts told be that was not right.
I bet that is the last thing anyone would expect to come loose.To keep things from moving to torque it down, I stuck a small allen wrench in the teeth of the starter gear and the idler. Then torqued that sucker to 120nm. Put blue thread lock on that bolt, too (as Haynes says to do).
Friday Morning Update: Still no oil on the floor so that's good. Means everything is sealed up tight. Started just fine. Stared just like he used to start. I still fear a few case bolts were over torqued (clicky torque wrench was fussy) but won't worry about it unless there is an oil leak or I have to take the covers off again. Next time I'll just go "hand tight" like I normally do and skip the torque wrench for these case bolts.
Phenix now has 180 miles since last fill up so must be close to reserve. That means empty tank so Saturday he will get valve adjustment and carb sync (empty tanks are easier to take off).
Now that I've been inside his engine, it really is easy to to do. Cleaning clutch plates was no doubt a good thing to do. Checking for any play in the counter balance bearing - its right there so I did (that was Junior's major engine failure). Now I think all new bikes and engines will get opened up and all these things checked. heck - it could be done in a couple hours and then I'd know the condition of the engine. Do oil change at the same time.
As a final note, Phenix is running fine.
The stickiness of the clutch is gone. I can now start in gear with clutch in and no lurching forward.
So, in all this, even though the clutch was not the real problem, cleaning the clutch plates was a good thing.
Given the areas between the thingies on the plates, crap can collect there. So cleaning them out makes the clutch operate so much better. Probably an occasional cleaning of the clutch plates will extend the life of the clutch. If nothing more, clutch operation is like brand new again.
Running with Amsoil may be helping. First bike I've tried it in.
So just to be clear, it was tightening that bolt down that fixed the lurch? Also, do I need to drain my oil to get at that bolt?
Graham
Getting rid of the lurch had to be from cleaning off the clutch plates. Lots of crud accumulates in the little spaces between the clutch thingies on the plates. With the clutch lever in, the rear wheel was hard to get started moving. Once moving it was OK until the clutch went back in. Then the plates stuck together again.
Probably they were rather cruddy from a PO that no doubt did not change oil as often as he should have.
Now I have Amsoil in Phenix. I can not say what change that has made. The OEM oil in Phenix was only 2 months old. It is possible that the two oil changes helped clean the crud from the plates (in addition to manually cleaning them in kerosene and soaking in clean Amsoil). Talking to the mechanic, he said clutch plates should be cleaned once in a while. They last longer and operate better if you do.
Tightening the magneto bolt on the left took care of the problem of the starter slipping and poor charging due to the magneto not rotating as fast as it should.
You have to drain the oil to take off either side cover.
Lurching: sticky clutch, right side
Starter dragging or slipping: left side
I thought the clutch stuff was left side and the magneto charging stuff was on the left? I'm an idiot?
No you're not an idiot, just confused. The starter clutch acts more like a one-way bearing. It's attached to the magneto under the left cover.
The transmission clutch is on the right side under the cover.