I had to replace 2 valves on a 2004 gs500 I bought. I replaced the valves and set the shim clearances with some new shims I got from cycle recylce for $5 a piece (thanks to someone here but I can't find the post anymore).
I set the timing and buttoned it all back up but now the bike idles at 5000 rpm.
I had already cleaned the carb, set the floats, checked the fuel/air mixture screws etc. so I don't think its the carb.
My question is, if I was off on the timing could this cause the high idle issue?
Also, I checked the compression too and it matches what my book says is good compression.
Throttle cable tension?
Did the choke cable get connected correctly?
Idle adjustment screw?
Throttle cable snapps back to position quickly.
Choke cable is attached correctly (as far as I know). The bike won't start without it, but after starting if i turn the choke off it bings the rpms down slightly (maybe to 4500).
Idle adjustment screw is backed out all the way (so it barely touches the throttle spring).
I've also checked the boots around the carb. They don't look cracked and they fit tightly around the carb.
Throttle snapping back: doesn't mean there is enough free play. should require about 1/4" of rotation to make the throttle move. You should be able to wiggle the throttle a little and nothing happens. More free play is better than none.
You have 2 throttle cables: a pusher and a puller. both need proper adjusting.
Look at the slider bar for the choke. Does it move all the way left and right when you move the choke lever?
It is very easy to get the choke cable attached wrong at the carbs. You've got the cable end, the spring and the metal end of the cable goes in that slot all the way. I always have to triple check that thing.
You nailed it! I wanted to prove it wasn't the throttle cables so I took them off. I left the choke on. Started it up. Now with the choke on it idles at about 2k and after warming up a bit I take the choke off and it dies down to about 1100 but has trouble not stalling. I'm sure with a bit of idle screw adjustment I can get it right.
Thanks, I owe you a beer.
So I fixed throttle cable issue but I am still having trouble with keeping the bike at idle speed. It starts right up as long as the choke is on, but as soon as I turn off the choke it stalls. If I turn down the choke about half way it will sort of idle but it makes a strange clicking sound and the revs die way down and it picks back up again. I shot a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Soyz712wARU&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Soyz712wARU&feature=youtu.be)
Since I can keep it going and even open the throttle up pretty high (in the video I hit about 7k before letting go) I don't think its a fuel supply issue. I also checked the float height before I took the video:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tqOOkG3qvGg/UG9iz4OMLLI/AAAAAAAAAZU/PUgyO4XmwPg/s700/20121005183118.jpg)
Here is a picture of the sparkplug after i took the video:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-QE66zEpf6jE/UG9iz2AaWlI/AAAAAAAAAZQ/Qzb3S2DtFbU/s700/20121005182828.jpg)
Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Listening to that noise makes me think its the cam chain tensioner. It sort of sounds like the chain is going slack then getting taught again. When I put it back in after replacing my valves, I did think to myself that the spring on it didn't feel as powerfull as it did when I took it off.
Any comments/suggestions? I'm pretty sure this in a non-interference engine, so I wouldn't expect the valves/piston heads to get mangled if it slipped timing. And i would expect as long as I kept the rpms up, the chain would stay more taught then running the lower rpms (at idle).
Anyway I am going to call my local used bike parts shop and see if they can get me a good deal on one tomorrow. Otherwise , anyone have a spare they could part with for a few bucks?
my bike ran like total shaZam! when the timing was one tooth retarded on the cams. When you set timing, before you put in the tensioner, the cams SEEM a little too far advanced, but they roll back when the tensioner pushes the aft part of the chain into proper tension. Check your timing just in case.
then check/clean/replace plugs
and make sure your boots are tight and crack free.
and what front end do you have on that thing? f1?
Quote from: mchollan on October 05, 2012, 10:00:32 PM
I'm pretty sure this in a non-interference engine, so I wouldn't expect the valves/piston heads to get mangled if it slipped timing.
That would be incorrect. However, one tooth off will not crash a valve.
Quote from: Paulcet on October 06, 2012, 08:49:39 AM
Quote from: mchollan on October 05, 2012, 10:00:32 PM
I'm pretty sure this in a non-interference engine, so I wouldn't expect the valves/piston heads to get mangled if it slipped timing.
That would be incorrect. However, one tooth off will not crash a valve.
Good to know. I have seen some contradicting statements on here. Just for my knoledge, is it possible for the intake and exhaust valves to collide, or just for the valves to hit the piston head?
Quote from: Funderb on October 06, 2012, 07:10:14 AM
my bike ran like total shaZam! when the timing was one tooth retarded on the cams. When you set timing, before you put in the tensioner, the cams SEEM a little too far advanced, but they roll back when the tensioner pushes the aft part of the chain into proper tension. Check your timing just in case.
then check/clean/replace plugs
and make sure your boots are tight and crack free.
and what front end do you have on that thing? f1?
By front end, you mean the forks up to the tripple right? I'm not sure what I have on there. The original owner seemed baffled when I asked him how he got the clip-ons on there. If I snapped a few more pictures could you help me figure out which front end it is? To be completely honest I wouldn't mind going back to the stock front end with the raised handle bars. These clip-ons interfere with the gas tank and car really pinch your hands.
well, if/when you do, let me know what you find out. i'll take those clips off your hands if you want. might work better with the pre-01 tank :thumb:
I just wish I knew what I had on there so I would know what to replace. I have the upper tripple off a stock gs500 but they won't bold on becuase the lower tripples are from some other bike. It makes the gauges look kind of funny too because they had to be pushed back in order to make room for the front brake resivoir.
The previous owner did NOT do a good job.
Anyway I ordered a new timing chain tensioner off ebay for $9. Should be here in a few days. I'll strip the bike back down and check the timing while I install this. This time I'll take some pictures. Maybe you guys can confirm I have the timing right.
Thanks.
Quote from: mchollan on October 06, 2012, 12:36:57 PM
Good to know. I have seen some contradicting statements on here. Just for my knoledge, is it possible for the intake and exhaust valves to collide, or just for the valves to hit the piston head?
It's a hemi engine. If your valve timing is *way* off, the valves could hit. OTOH, the aftermarket cams add a lot of lift and duration with no problems. You'd have to really screw up the timing to make the valves collide with each other.
I'm really hoping these are the stock cams...although there have been quite a few mods done to the bike before I got it. I'll post pictures after I have torn the thing apart again.
Alright, I pulled the bike apart....again. This time I took some photos. This is how my timing is currently set. Can anyone confirm/deny this is correct?
Intake/Exhaust timing:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-1TGgCiWqp9g/UHOLcldyrHI/AAAAAAAAAaU/A5_e8i7NJxw/w1012-h329-n-k/timingWithMarkup.jpg)
Red circle indicate each link 1 -18. Yellow circles are the timing markings 2 on the exhaust cam and 3 on the intake cam. Green arrows indicate the direction of the indent on the cam ends.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iZMhhYbd1YU/UHOMhBiqTlI/AAAAAAAAAao/Ez6p_ChsK5o/w543-h242-n-k/CIMG6175.JPG)
Yellow circle indicates the timing mark 1.
Crank Position:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XLxTB_IJjq8/UHOImbeMtmI/AAAAAAAAAaU/DfLg0CIr-Vw/s885/CIMG6170.JPG)
looks perfect.
Which sucks for you.
I suggest your next steps: Check coils to see if they are in spec (Resistance with multimeter).
+wire to -wire = 3-6 ohms
+wire to plug cap = 18-30 kohms
if that comes out okay, replace your plugs, you never know. i bought a pair that had one fail after only a couple months.
after that, you need to go chasing vacuum leaks and that sort of thing.
Coils seem to be in spec.
Left side Primary: 5.5 Ohms
Left side Secondary: 30 KOhms
Right side primary 5.7 Ohms
Right side secondary 31 KOhms.
I know the right side is just out of spec @ 31 K, but would that really cause such bad performance.
I have a second set of plugs. I'll put them in when I get the thing put back together.
Onto my troubleshooting, Is there a way to make sure that the throttle position sensor on the right side of the carb is working properly?
Thanks again for everyones input!
I put my new cam chain tensioner in. I still have the same behavior. When the bike is unwilling to idle without choke, that is a sign of being lean correct? The next step I should take is to check for vacuum leaks?
Quote from: mchollan on October 14, 2012, 07:24:06 PMThe next step I should take is to check for vacuum leaks?
You'd think that step would come before changing the cam tensioner...
Ha. Well its a little late for that. I changed it while I had the whole thing apart to double check the timing, which i posted the pictures of a few posts up. It looked correct but I remembered the chain tensioner being...less springy when I put it back on. So I bought a new one for $9.
Now I still have the bad idling issue.
Fair enough. But yeah, check for vacuum leaks.
After reading through the thread, I realize my bike has very similar symptoms to yours (doesn't like to idle below 2000 RPM, clicks and revs drop cyclically). I know for a fact the carbs need to be synchronized, and I'm hoping that is the only problem. Have you tried synchronizing the carbs?
For a band-aid, I've simply got it set to idle at 2000 RPM. I have to adjust the idle adjustment if I come to a stop after cruising for a while, but it rides just fine.
No I have not synced the carbs. I know it has to be done because I just adjusted the valves. I'll have to build one, I'm pretty sure I have the tubing in the garage.
I looked for vacuum leaks and found squat. I can't seem to figure out why the bike is running so lean.
I can't even use the band-aid suggested (turning up the idle) becuase my bike will die if I don't have the choke on. I'm feeling a bit stumped but I refuse to give up. I'll attempt to build the carb sync and get back with you guys tomorrow.
What I did with the idle is let the engine warm up on full choke, adjust the choke until it rested at 2000 RPM, then slowly closed the choke while adjusting the idle screw to keep it idling at the same speed, until the choke was fully closed.
Are the intake, exhaust, and jets stock? Sorry if you've already answered that question, I've only skimmed through the thread.
All stock but I've been reading more and more threads and other forums and I may have another idea. While I was working on the shims (i also replaced a valve and a few other things) I took the exhaust off (unbolted the headers). If I didn't seat it properly, which is entirely possible because its not an easy task to accomplish by yourself, the engine would run lean.
I'm going to check that tomorrow and grab a set of gaskets from a local shop. Hopefully they have them. I'll let you know how that turns out.
Any chance your lean issue occurred after unbolting the exhaust headers?
Well I've got a full V&H exhaust, so my carbs have been rejetted. I'm not currently dealing with a lean condition, the carbs are just in bad need of a sync.
I wouldn't expect carbs being out of sync to cause as terrible conditions as I am experiencing but then again your bike is ridable....
Either way I'll post back when I know more.
I find this problem of yours extremely interesting. I have timing set like yours. Retarded ever so slightly as far as I can tell from the pictures. I've put a k&n lunchbox with 20/65/142.5 jets. Ex valves are set to around 0.08mm and intake to around 0.04mm
It pops trough intake every now and then. It runs a little bit lean and Idle is impossible to set.
It idles barely at 1000rpm. With choke on 1500rpm. When hot it rises to 1100 and when I apply choke it dies or rises to 6000 depending how I set the choke lever and give it a little throttle.
Idle mix is at 3.5 but when I try to set ti properly it needs around 5 turns out indicating too small pilot jet.
Popping then almost goes away.
I am satisfied with performance , until 3k rpm it is not smooth. And after some 10 miles when it heats prpoperly it idles rock steady at 1400 rpm. But if i leave it for 10 min it needs choke and some drive to idle fine again.
I plan to advance it one tooth. Just because of popping. It is very silent and rare but it pops trough carbs.
Beergarage tutorial on timing has it advanced slightly. It is only one tooth, around a degree or two. I have no other way to explain it but timing. After going trough everything I just don't care no more and just drive it. But it is not good.
So mine is going to service and advancing it in a week or two. And some iridium plugs just in case the coils are weak.
Maybe yours does not pop trough carbs, i have mine intake valves set relatively tight....yours may be more loose and while not blowing back it cant work good. Maybe I am completely wrong with my diagnosis...
Hope someone can shed some light' but 2 on exhaust cam is going past 12 o'clock not before as mine is now, and as far as I can tell yours too.
Sorry for the long post.
Best of luck fixing.
Quote from: mchollan on October 15, 2012, 07:46:47 PM
I wouldn't expect carbs being out of sync to cause as terrible conditions as I am experiencing but then again your bike is ridable....
Either way I'll post back when I know more.
Hey man, just an update....I synced my carbs today and it fixed the clicking/dropping idle issue. Idles like a champ now. I'd highly recommend synchronizing your carbs, it may do wonders for your bike.
Good deal man! :thumb: :thumb:
I got my exhaust gaskets today but I don't think I'll put them on until tomorrow. Just out of curiosity, did you build the carb sync setup like other members here, or did you go out an buy one?
Any tips? That's my next set.
Oh and thanks for coming back and letting me know. I hate when these threads go idle!
Quote from: RossLH on October 17, 2012, 07:08:21 PM
Quote from: mchollan on October 15, 2012, 07:46:47 PM
I wouldn't expect carbs being out of sync to cause as terrible conditions as I am experiencing but then again your bike is ridable....
Either way I'll post back when I know more.
Hey man, just an update....I synced my carbs today and it fixed the clicking/dropping idle issue. Idles like a champ now. I'd highly recommend synchronizing your carbs, it may do wonders for your bike.
indeed it does. setting carbs by eye will get your bike to run :cheers:. a good synching, will get it to run NICELY :bowdown:
I replaced my exhaust gaskets with no change. I built the carb sync setup and attempted to sync the carbs, but it is difficult because getting the bike to maintain idle is difficult. Using the choke I was able to get the carbs close to being in sync with each other.
That still hasn't solved my issue. Idle is still impossible without the choke engaged. And with the choke engaged it idles really high (3000 rpm). After opening the throttle the rpms are slow to come back down to 3000. All of these point to a lean condition but I am unable to find a vacuum leak.
I just want to ride, especially with the weather I have been having (mid 70's in Florida this week)!
jesus, mick, I don't know what to tell you. The only other possible explanation I can think of is that your ignitor box is going bad.
but before we do that stuff, what exactly is your setup again? Any intake or exhaust mods? Is your gas old and bad? hows your compression these days?
Maybe this, do a resistance check on your signal generator coil, the little guy where the rotor is. if you have a manual it should have the specs for it. I'm not sure if its the same as mine, but mine says between 250-420 ohms. if its out of spec, it could be failing, and sending erratic signals to your ignitor box.
Quote from: mchollan on October 20, 2012, 12:37:22 PM
I replaced my exhaust gaskets with no change. I built the carb sync setup and attempted to sync the carbs, but it is difficult because getting the bike to maintain idle is difficult. Using the choke I was able to get the carbs close to being in sync with each other.
That still hasn't solved my issue. Idle is still impossible without the choke engaged. And with the choke engaged it idles really high (3000 rpm). After opening the throttle the rpms are slow to come back down to 3000. All of these point to a lean condition but I am unable to find a vacuum leak.
I just want to ride, especially with the weather I have been having (mid 70's in Florida this week)!
Where in Florida are you located? I'm feeling a little better now seeing I'm not the only guy in this state missing out on some PRIME!! riding weather south of tampa
This thread has given me a couple ideas on getting my bike into running perfectly. I get some popping in the exhaust, and know the PO(s?) didn't maintain this thing for shaZam!. Between the exhaust gaskets, and carb synch, I've got ideas now I didn't know about before :bowdown:
I'm in riverview which is just south of Tampa.
How many turns out are the idle mix screws?
I started them at two and a half but now I am at 5. I don't seem to notice a difference as I back them out with the bike running.
Five turns is too much. That's definitely contributing to the problem. Tighten them down to 2.5 turns and go from there. Have they been that way since before the carb sync?
I turned them back to 2.5 turns out. Again high idle with the choke on. Stall if I turn the choke off. If I leave the bike running with the choke on and adjust the screws I notice no change. Do those adjustment screws only affect the air/fuel ratio on the idle jet? Could it possibly be that I didn't clean the idle jets properly.....twice? :technical:
Thanks again.
set them to 2.5-3 turns, mix screws will have no effect while the choke is on.
and if you cant see light through your idle jets, fuel will not flow. try getting some copper braided wire that fits in either end of the jet, but not through, and twist it back and forth and see if crap comes out. it helps a lot if you cut off a single strand and can poke it through the idle jet hole. that is the best way to clean tarnished and varnished jets.
ive seen crap continue to come out of jets even after the 4th cleaning on my fzr. it also sat for ... 6mo-1yr
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :woohoo: :woohoo:
I took the carbs apart....again...for the 5th or 6th time. I really lost count. I took the jets out and soaked them for a day in carb cleaner. Sprayed the whole thing out again. Took the jets and ran thin wire my gf uses to make jewelry through them (she was pretty pissed I used her good wire for cleaning). I reset the air/fuel screws to 3 turns. I put it all back together and it worked. Idle with the choke all the way engaged at about 3k RPM. after about 2 minutes of running I turned off the choke and it settled at about 1200 RPM.
I just got back from about a 10 minute cruise around the neighborhood and everything seems great!
Thanks again to everyone that helped me out. You guys are awesome!
haha hooray! finally a suggestion that works for somebody!
Great feeling, isnt it?
Hell yea man. When I have a bit more time I am going to write up the whole fiasco. I actually bought the bike in April and have been fixing one thing after another. I was told only the starter was bad but I knew the price was too good to be true. I hate it when I am right.
Thanks again for the advice.
psht, still cheaper than a boat.
and no problem, thats what we're all here for. If there were internet awards, I'd nominate this place for "Best all around Forum ever."
I've been helped more times here, and at a greater magnitude than anywhere. Its epic.
Sorry for not reading this earlier. When I got my bike it would not idle without choke, all I did was shoot carb cleaner through the 2 holes at the very front of the carb intakes and it fixed it right up. Tiny gunk builds up in there and screws with the idle mix.