Helping a friend. So a few pointers to start with would be appreciated. We think stuck floats so here's the story:
Friend bought it and it was ridden to his house. After that, it would never run.
It tries to start but goes nowhere.
The little drip hole at the bottom of the exhaust (we have that, too) to let water drain from the exhaust drips gas. So lots of gas is just going right through the engine into the exhaust.
Battery good and re-charged. Was told this bike doesn't like the choke.
Service manual will be here in a couple days. Owners manual in hand so at least for now I can turn off the gas completely.
We figure a day will get it running again. Most likely stuck floats. Bike has 1000 miles on it.
I'm posting here for suggestions as you guys & gals know my level of experience. That will make it easier to tell me where to go and what to check without having to explain what a screw driver is.
I will post pictures. This is the first major non-GS500 project for the bike cave.
BURN THE NINJA! :icon_twisted:
I've never worked on a Ninja, so keep that in mind.
Could be as simple as the valves needing adjusted. Or the idle / pilot jet being clogged, and it's pumping too much gas into a cold cylinder to fire.
He came by with more info after delivering the bike to the Bike Cave.
Ran fine.
Sat for 3 months
Sort of fired up but any throttle would kill it.
Now, 6 weeks later, won't fire up and gas dripping
Did get fresh gas and oil change
That's all that has been done so far.
Friend is a noob at bikes so I'm going to help.
I think to start:
1. Pull fairing off
2. Check plug - for crud and wetness
3. Check oil for gas and change oil or if looks/smells OK, still change oil when we get it to fire up.
4. Turn off gas at tank or pinch off fuel lines. Try to start bike with just what is in the carb. If it does start and run until carb empty, probably stuck floats.
If no go, then will have to pull carbs for a cleaning.
......edit: CARB singular, it has one cylinder so should be easy.
QuoteCould be as simple as the valves needing adjusted. Or the idle / pilot jet being clogged, and it's pumping too much gas into a cold cylinder to fire.
Probably right on carbs. With 1000 miles, valves are probably OK and considering was running perfect before 3 months of sitting - probably carbs.
If the fuel is going through and not being burned, is there any spark?
If it has 1 carb... its not a ninja 250.... 250s are Twin water cooled bikes.
Haven't had time to look - he just said it was single carb. It is 2 cylinder.
Now back to the issues.....
He SAID there was spark. It would be funny if he did something and didn't put the spark plug wires back on correctly.
Maybe I should pretend it is a GS500 with different fairings and do what I'd do with a GS to get it running? I should ignore everything he said EXCEPT that it sat for 3 months (now 5 months).
I was doing something with mine one and left one of the plug wires off and thought something was really wrong when it didnt run right. It can happen
I couldn't resist. Had to look at it.
fairings: a real pain in the tukus to take off. GS500 is so simple.
Spark plugs: What a long kludge of a spark plug "shaft".
Did the logical: pinched off the fuel line to the carbs. WOW! gas all over the place. Something pumps gas into the air box. It must have a fuel pump?
The air box was full of gas and pouring out all over the place.
Opened up the air box - loaded with gas and soaked air filter.
Noticed tank was now about empty and gas gauge said empty.
Tried again. It started! Ran smooth. ANY throttle kills it. Still lots of gas in the air box. I have the air box open and filter out so it can get some air.
Quitting for the night so all the spilled gas can dry up. Also cold.
Now to wait for the manual. Study the fuel system and figure out why this thing is flooding itself. With the gas line pinched, unless there is a fuel pump, no gas should go anywhere.
If there is a pump, then are we down to stuck floats in the carbs or something else?
I think I am close. Just waiting now for the service manual.
GOD I HATE WORKING ON A KAWASAKI!
SOOOOOOOO glad I chose the GS500 over the Ninja 500.
Anyway, while I wait for the manual, who knows the fuel system on the Ninja? maybe I can easily (yea - like anything is easy on a Ninja?) errr.... get it fixed.
An After Thought:
Is the floats in a Ninja mechanical or a switch for the fuel pump?
It seems that if I pinch off the fuel to the carbs, gravity or pressure would stop fuel flow and not fill up the air box.
However, if the floats in the Ninja were an electrical switch that turns the fuel pump off (or an electrical valve), then it would explain all the fuel getting forced into the air box.
Quote from: weedahoe on December 18, 2012, 08:45:37 PM
I was doing something with mine one and left one of the plug wires off and thought something was really wrong when it didnt run right. It can happen
So does this mean you know the Ninja fuel system or are you talking about a different bike?
No fuel pumps on any carb bikes that I know of.
This may help:
http://www.kawasakipartshouse.com/oemparts/#/l/kaw/500b6574f8700223e4797664/2010-ninja-250r-ex250jaf-parts
or
http://www.kawasakipartshouse.com/oemparts/#/l/kaw/500b6578f8700223e47976a2/2010-ninja-250r-ex250jafa-parts
After reading through this, I'd recommend a top to bottom carb clean and float height check.
I bet gummed up carbs are causing the floats to stick, thus causing gas to go all over the place (i.e. in the airbox).
Yep, had a Ninja 500 once for the wife. Hated it. A b!tch to work on.
You can also try over at the Ninja 250 site (http://forums.ninja250.org/) as there's a lot of info on the new gen (08-12) and old gen (86-07) too for that matter Ninja 250s over there. But with the fuel running into the engine, it sounds like there's crap/dirt/? in the carb's float valves letting the fuel run into the engine. Also for the USA market new gen 250, it's carb'd and doesn't have a fuel pump. However the oversea models are fuel-injected.
Tony
Quote from: TonyKZ1 on December 19, 2012, 10:05:57 AM
~ with the fuel running into the engine, it sounds like there's crap/dirt/? in the carb's float valves letting the fuel run into the engine.
That's what I was thinking.
Well, stuck floats IF they work like GS500 floats can't be it. If they operate a switch to a fuel pump then maybe because.....
If I punch off fuel from petcock to the carbs as done here
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Technical/DSC03054a.jpg)
The air box fills up with fuel really fast. and that just can't happen with gravity fed fuel if the line is pinched off.
So I will have to research the fuel delivery system when the service manual arrives later this week. There was snow on the high hill of West Seattle today so I drove the car.
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Technical/DSC03052a.jpg)
I was told that nothing was done to the bike except change the oil. This really looks like a fuel line and a vacuum/air line got reversed. What could make the air box fill up with gas when the line to the carbs is pinched off?
...and why do you need water cooling for a 250cc motor? That's just silly.
(I joined and posted on the Ninga forum. Their message board is not as nice but DOES allow uploading pictures)
A fresh thought: Could it be a torn diaphragm in the fuel petcock? Torn so the vacuum to turn the fuel on is really sucking fuel into the carbs? I can pinch off that vacuum line and try with more gas in the now empty tank.
Could try hooking up a temporary gas tank to eliminate everything before the carbs. Just be sure its higher than the carbs.
- Bboy
Have the MotionPro shop tank. Looks like the tank should be popped off anyway since the carbs should be cleaned.
Ninja forum suggested floats stuck for a couple months could have filled crankcase with gas and now it is blowing gas through the breather. However the airbox has clean gas - not oily.
I will check the oil level. What is odd: with the fuel line to carbs pinched off, more gas went into the air box. So I still have a bad feeling about the petcock.
So:
1. check oil level
2. remove petcock and its vacuum line from the equation
If you pinching the line, and it has a pump, its a evap return system with a stuck one way valve, letting gas into the air box, and not only vapors...
I think.
Just rebuild the carbs and rip off the emissions junk.
Oil overfilled?
Edit: Not oily gas in air box? Agree with Xune. Rebuild and clean carbs. Change oil. Retry. Should fix.
Hose routing diagram.
Gravity fuel feed. Pinching line and more gas makes me think torn peacock diaphram.
Just learned problem came on suddenly. So test peacock first. Will update later.
Will get spools on swing arm and bike on rear thingy to check oil. These bikes have no center stand and spools were optional ... But does have mounting for them.
it is way too late most likely....
fuel in exhaust.....
fuel in oil.......
check the plugs.... most likely wet and or black sooty
clean the carbs..... they is a problem with them
they are just like GS carbs with a couple differences.......
Sounds like you should start by taking the carbs fully apart to see whats up in there, whether its gummed up, something is ripped, etc. Clean 'em up real good, get the hoses routed right, and put it back together
From what I've learned on my GS, trying to troubleshoot the carb without taking it apart is like bringing a noodle to a sword fight
Crankcase is completely full. Like 3" fuller than the oil level window.
Crap in airbox is same color as what I see in the oil level window: milky yellowish so it is oil/gas.
Friend called and now has the service manual so we will drain the gas/oil mixture. Refill. Clean carbs and should be OK.
Today is crappy so no work.
Tomorrow should be the last dry day of the year and last first dry day for a couple weeks so no work --- one last ride of the year.
So work will resume Monday or Tuesday. I'll report what is found.
Flush the oil a few times with some cheap junk oil from the dollar store. You don't want anything not oil left in bearings. :thumb:
The overseas Ninja 250s get fuel injection, and have a fuel pump. My wife's race bike is a 08 250, so I know a little bit about them.
US Ninja 250s are gravity fed carbureted bikes. No fuel injector. Like the GS500, they have a vacuum operated petcock. Unlike the GS, they do not have a user accessable fuel shutoff valve. The vacuum petcock on ours leaked. Would not be surprised if yours is the same.
Carbs usually have a breather tube that connects the float bowls to the air intake or vaccuum chamber, to normalize the pressure. If the floats overfill badly enough, fuel goes out that breather and into the airbox.
The 08-11 Ninja 250 carbs are a complete pain in the butt to work on. The airbox is very difficult to remove from the frame, and the carbs are difficult to remove without pulling the airbox. GS500 is a dream in comparison.
We settled on loosening up the airbox, and pulling it back far enough to get the carbs out.
Ninja 250 can be a little cold blooded. I suspect a carb rebuild will fix all your issues.
Curious to see if there was any work done in the last week on this...
No work until the owner shows up with fresh oil.
Soon it will be moved from inside the cave to outside in the car port unless he gets off his butt.
When helping someone for free - they have to do their part.
I'll update as soon as he comes through with oil and spends some time helping.
Cool. I had a 2001 Ninja 500 once. PITA to work on. Sold after 1000 miles cause the wife chose not to ride anymore.
BUMP!
Been over a week. Anything? Curious to see what it was.
A buddy of mine is selling his red 09 for $2000... Going to Afghanistan and running out of time. It still has warranty and is super clean.
- Bboy
We drained the gas out of the crank case. WOW! That stuff really poured out fast. Gas is a lot thinner than oil.
Fresh oil will go in next. Also will disconnect hose to carbs and dump in pure SeaFoam. Let that sit and then tap the carbs a little to see if the floats/needles get un-stuck.
If that doesn't work, we will have to remove the carbs.
Goal right now is just get it operational again. Fill clean up & tune up will come later.
Once it runs, we'll change the oil again with some good stuff (Oh, let's start another oil thread!)
Quote from: adidasguy on January 16, 2013, 01:55:34 PM
Once it runs, we'll change the oil again with some good stuff (Oh, let's start another oil thread!)
Castrol 4T!! Lol ;)
Quote from: Zethioth on January 16, 2013, 05:29:33 PM
Quote from: adidasguy on January 16, 2013, 01:55:34 PM
Once it runs, we'll change the oil again with some good stuff (Oh, let's start another oil thread!)
Castrol 4T!! Lol ;)
You're not going to draw me into another oil thread because I'll be using the best there is in the world: Amsoil. If not that then the cheapest crappy oil from the back door dumpster of KFC. all the same stuff, anyway.
Hey now, I only had 3 choices at my Auto Parts store, at least 3 that were specified for "Motorcycle". Castrol was the only one that didn't say synthetic, as I have no idea what was ran in my bike before. I think he told me Rotella, not sure.
I feel safer using an oil product that is branded for motorcycles than other oil products, or KFC's oil.
Well, changed the oil. Gave it a try and still floods.
I really HATE the Ninja. You can't even get at the spark plugs without removing the gas tank. What an insane design! I wanted to look at the plugs to see which side was the one at fault.
It will slowly idle with a little gas in the tank. Any throttle and it dies.
Thinking I'll drain the carbs then force some SeaFoam in there. If there is dirt in the float needles, then that should force it out or un-stick them.
Hopefully warmer this coming weekend so I can work on it.
So glad I didn't buy a Ninja 500. These things are a real pain to work on. It makes me really love the simplicity of the good 'ol GS500.
Bike going to a shop.
Here's why:
I don't mind helping people but for god's sake show some interest.
He won't come over. never asks about the bike.
Obviously this person doesn't care about the bike. So why should I?
If you come over, I'll help you any way possible. if you can't be bothered, neither can I.
Here we have a bike with a bad owner. Nice guy, but feels if a 1940 Plymouth can start after sitting 20 years, why bother doing work on a bike?
Pretty sad. This bike will fall apart due to neglect. Combine that with what he paid. $4k for a 2010 Ninja Special Edition that had already been dropped. Paid about $2k too much. Never has ridden it. Doesn't even have motorcycle endorsement. I was told he would start it occasionally. I'm sure the carbs are crap die to neglect for the past 10 months.
So the fairings go back on and a friend of ours with a truck will take it to a shop.
The good thing is that I am renting parking space at the Bike Cave to a noob with a 2012 Ninja 250. He has learned a lot about his bike by seeing this 250 without the fairings. He will help put the fairings back on. Then he will know how to take his off and on to put on sliders and an air horn. Now here is a new owner that loves his bike and is fun to have around the Bike Cave. The only other person to have a key to the Bike Cave in West Seattle. $1 a day is all it costs.
Sad indeed but I guess no different than all the other bikes we find for sale with really low miles so they obviously were never ridden? Why buy it there? A good deal for the next buyer in most cases but I never understood why people buy a bike and ride it 1000 miles over 5 years
If he doesn't want it, tell him to ship it to me. Cheaper than a shop repair, and it'll have a good owner and a warm garage. :thumb:
Quote from: adidasguy on December 18, 2012, 06:29:18 PM
He came by with more info after delivering the bike to the Bike Cave.
Ran fine.
Sat for 3 months
Sort of fired up but any throttle would kill it.
Now, 6 weeks later, won't fire up and gas dripping
Did get fresh gas and oil change
That's all that has been done so far.
Friend is a noob at bikes so I'm going to help.
I think to start:
1. Pull fairing off
2. Check plug - for crud and wetness
3. Check oil for gas and change oil or if looks/smells OK, still change oil when we get it to fire up.
4. Turn off gas at tank or pinch off fuel lines. Try to start bike with just what is in the carb. If it does start and run until carb empty, probably stuck floats.
If no go, then will have to pull carbs for a cleaning.
......edit: CARB singular, it has one cylinder so should be easy.
QuoteCould be as simple as the valves needing adjusted. Or the idle / pilot jet being clogged, and it's pumping too much gas into a cold cylinder to fire.
Probably right on carbs. With 1000 miles, valves are probably OK and considering was running perfect before 3 months of sitting - probably carbs.
i usually pull carb/s after a bikes been sitting to be on the safe side. what youve described to me sounds like dirty carbs
Some people do not deserve their bikes.
Quote from: codajastal on March 09, 2013, 06:11:05 PM
Some people do not deserve their bikes.
ive seen this many times. i saw an exception to this today. a young kid. maybe 16 or 17, ATGATT to a t. riding a cheesy 250 ( a suzuki gz250 ) we used those @ the Moto safety course. kid would check bike before a ride, after he stopped, etc. we talked for a good 20 minutes. about bikes, repairs, what he could do to 1 get a bit more out of the 250, his plans etc. i suggested a gs500 btw. we had a huge stash of helmets, leathers etc. some icon jackets, tourmaster? or somethign of the like. alot of the gear. i had 2 of the icon safety orange vests, ( him being my size) i gave him one of them. i use the other when riding the goped. cause i ride against traffic on shoulder.) that kdi will make a good rider, and a safe one. there were others pulling into the lot on litre bikes, doingstoppies some firing themup cold, and revving the utter hell out of them. I did tell that kid, and others about the redneck temp check procedure. ( engines have three parts. the crankcase/trans, the cylinder/s, and the head/s) they expand @ different rates. warming up, idle it, and touch hte fins on cylinder briefly. when it becomes too warm to do this its ready. sorry about the marathon reply my friend. ( one of my many faults :cry:) in a short reply i say, yeah i see those who dont deserve to ride, or are not rider material, and i do see those that give me hope.
Aaron
Quote from: adidasguy on January 21, 2013, 06:08:55 PM
So glad I didn't buy a Ninja 500. These things are a real pain to work on. It makes me really love the simplicity of the good 'ol GS500.
Oh the irony ;)
Just Kidding Adidas...you got a good deal.
Yes - I know. Now I have one! That's why I'm letting S.U.B do the initial clean of carbs and be sure she's running. I'll do the cosmetic work when she comes home.
I'll start a build thread soon.
Since I am renting a space to a 2012 Ninja 250, I'll be learning. at least Olly wants to work on his bike so that will make it fun.
The other guy never asks about his bike. So that red one will get the fairing put back on (and Olly will learn how it goes on his bike) then it will go away and if here any longer, parked outside the bike cave and car port with a cover over it until he takes it away.
What do I call an EX500? It can't be Nina, as that's what Olly calls his 250. It is kind of funny always talking about "the X". I think she needs a better name after 6 years of neglect.
I've started to hang out on ex-500.com It seems like a pretty nice site, like gstwins.
Quote from: adidasguy on March 13, 2013, 01:58:29 PM
I've started to hang out on ex-500.com It seems like a pretty nice site, like gstwins.
Yep, it's a pretty good place. I'm also a member over there, quite a bit of good info there too. FOG is probably one of the most knowledgeable guys on the Ninja 500/EX-500 on that site. He also raced and/or modified them for racing years ago.
Tony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgt3LQKIwVg
if a cali bike
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Hose_routing_for_California_emissions/3_line_fuel_tanks
http://pdftown.com/Kawasaki-GPX250-Service-Manual.html