Hey guys,
So, I blew the counterbalance bearing in my 2004 earlier this year. Ever since then, I've been (not so) patiently waiting for a compatible engine to show up on Craigslist. Well it finally happened - someone with a 2007 engine posted and when I showed up he offered to give me the entire bike for no additional charge. He had started parting it out but I guess he got tired of it.
Anyway, he had wrecked the bike and the damage was to the front end and fairings. He had already sold the seat and exhaust by the time I got the bike. The frame looks like it's in good shape.
So here's my question:
Would it be better to still pull the engine from the 2007 frame and put it on my bike, or would you suggest using parts from the 2004 to rebuild the front end/body on the wrecked 2007?
Pros/Cons?
Here's a handful of images. (http://imgur.com/a/rBXGc) The one on the trailer (without tires on) is the 2007.
Thanks!
as long as the frame is in good shape, I'd say transfer parts over to the 07. I've never taken an engine out before, but I'd imagine it's not very fun. Front end stuff is easy peasy.
Being the bike is exactly the same. The only negative thing about keeping the 07 is slightly higher insurance and tag each year because it is a newer year even though it is the exact same frame and parts
you want to be sure the frame is actually dead straight, no point swapping into a frame with alignment issues. anything that has taken a front end hit will have issues even if only slight.
plus do you know for sure the frame which has the VIN is a clean frame with no issues such as finance, stolen etc etc? lots of ???. I'd be going with an engine swap personally, if everything is right about the current bike except the engine its the lesser of two evils.
Thats exactly what I would say..
If you dont know how you can always learn how to install the motor.. there is no way of fixing or knowing a bent frame or other small issues on the bike until after you have invested all the time.
Plus you have title transfer fees, as mentioned higher insurance.. did he claim the bike on insurance as wrecked? If so a bike with a history of a wreck is worth less.
Seems pointless to me.
Knowing your frame is good, I'd swap engines.
It takes about 10 minutes to remove or install an engine - all by yourself - with a floor jack. See the pictures in this thread where I show removing an engine and putting one in.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=57258.msg690086#msg690086
Getting an engine out? No problem.
Getting an engine in? PITFA
like adidas said, all things are made incredibly easy given the correct tools.
Quote from: weedahoe on December 23, 2012, 10:52:37 PM
Getting an engine out? No problem.
Getting an engine in? PITFA
Really?
Doing the reverse of removal, I got it in in under 10 minutes and all bolts tightened down. No help at all. Connecting everything up and test firing the motor was 45 minutes tops.
Sometimes it involves raising or lowering the motor a half an inch, doing a movement, then up or down another inch or so, another move, and so forth in small, careful steps.
Ideally, if you had a hoist and could lift the entire frame up, it would be so simple. (Or a pit to lower the motor down into.) I'm sure that's how the factory does it in final assembly. Hmmmmmm.... I have parts bikes to remove the motors. I'll have to try that: support motor, unbolt it, lower it then hoist up the front of the bike and see if the motor then is free as a bird.
You can do it in 45 mins but that doesnt mean everyone can :dunno_black:
Fact is we dont know how competent the OP is or what facilities he has and we cant predict what problems may occur.
For someone who has never done it before its going to take as long as it takes :dunno_black:
My advice is to read up on the procedure before you start, make sure you have got all the gear you need to hand including 2 new exhaust gaskets, oil and filter. Soak the header and engine bolts with penetrating oil the night before and have someone there to give you a hand.......and DONT rush it.
I have done 3 swaps and each one where you have to turn the engine a bit to clear the front left mounting tab is a biotch. It's always been my brother in law and myself and I have a 3 ton floor jack I've always used.
Alright, I decided I'm going to move the engine just so I can avoid any frame/title/etc issues.
As you might have noticed in the pictures, the 2007 doesn't have the wheels on it. (I had to take them off to get it to fit into the back of my RAV4...I couldn't find the key to the lock on my motorcycle trailer and time was limited...)
I assume it would be a lot easier to remove the engine if the tires were back on? Or should I just lay the bike on its side and go from there? Unfortunately I don't have any help (everyone is on vacation) so I'll be doing it by myself. I do have a 3 Ton hydraulic lift and jack stands.
My first engine removal was either Junior or the donor bike for Phenix - I forget which was first as both happened about the same time. It isn't bike experience at all. More like analytical and observational experience. I studied the situation and determined what to do.
If the bike has no wheels, the bare frame isn't too heavy.
Try having it upright. Support the engine so it won't fall out. Remove the right front part of the frame as you unbolt it. Then lift the frame up and off of the engine.
Quote from: adidasguy on December 24, 2012, 11:03:05 AM
Try having it upright. Support the engine so it won't fall out. Remove the right front part of the frame as you unbolt it. Then lift the frame up and off of the engine.
I think this is what has me a little confused. I was thinking that since the engine is on the ground right now, if I unbolt from the frame in theory I can pull the frame away and the engine will stay put. I've been staring at it for a while and am not entirely sure which bolts I want to take out first. There seems to be part of the frame that would stay stuck on the engine as I pull it away, but I'm not entirely sure.
Been reading through the forum trying to get an understanding of which bolts I should and should not work on.
There are 4 BIG long bolts going through the frame holding in the engine.
One in the front.
One lower front
2 in the rear - an upper and a lower
All bolts holding in the engine go through the frame so you do not remove any bolts actually on the engine.
Then there are the 6 bolts (2 in each location) on the right front section of the frame. Those come off.
Then you should be able to lift, turn and lift the frame off.
The left side of the engine and frame want to get in each other's way. I've been wondering if doing what I did to remove the engine would work best - only turning the frame instead of the engine..
... of if the frame were to be lifted or dropped a little then tilted to the right so the lower left of the frame will clear that part of the engine is easiest.
You might need to put a brick under the whole thing in case the frame needs to drop a little.
There has to be an easy way because it would have to be fast at a factory.
Been thinking.... maybe they have the engine rotated 90* counter clockwise. Lift it up into the frame, then straighten it out and lower it a little into place. I do have an engine and the front half of a frame. I'll have to try that and see what happens.
Quote from: adidasguy on December 24, 2012, 11:57:30 AM
Then there are the 6 bolts (2 in each location) on the right front section of the frame. Those come off.
Thanks! This is the part that I was most concerned about. It almost seemed like those should stay on the engine as it comes out of the frame. I'll see about giving it a shot later today and report back.
Many thanks!
I played with the frame and motor for a minute. I think if the motor was on a 2x4 so it was up a little, it would have gone on in jiffy. I think the motor needs to go up a little to clear a frame mount. I recall that being required when I removed and installed motors - it needed to go up an inch then turn then drop back down an inch.
Well, I got both engines out - although I'm fighting an exhaust bolt on the bad engine. I was able to get 3 out but there's one stubborn one that I've been fighting for a couple of days. I've been able to get it to turn a little bit but it seems to have reached a point where it doesn't want to turn anymore.
I've been applying liberal amounts of bolt loosener to try and get it out, but with the cold freeze that just came in I had to give up yesterday. I'm searching Craigslist for a nice outdoor heater to get me back to working on it. Unfortunately the inside of the hex bolt seems to be somewhat stripped and I can't really get a good grip on it anymore. Decided to pull the engine out with the exhaust still attached for better access.
Things Tried:
Looking at it really hard
Lots of bolt loosener
Swearing at it
Lots of banging on it
Saying nice things to it
Things to try (in order):
Heat Gun + Vice Grips
Cutting a groove into the bolt head to try and get a better grip
Cutting the bolt head off completely
(http://i.imgur.com/iSlxK.jpg)
It needs an impact. Just pushing on the allen wrench won't do much for a stuck bolt. An impact will cause a shock to break the rust. Its like taffy: pull and it stretches. A quick snap and it breaks.
Use an impack wrench - a couple hits and it will break free.
also the cold is your enemy. The head has shrunk around the bolt. You need to heat up the head so it expands and frees the bolt. Heat gun, hair dryer or a torch on the area to expand the head and the bolt should come free.
Remember: when the allen wrench is in there, tap down on the end to give short, quick, shocking turns to the bolt. Just pushing on the allen wrench will strip the heads. Small hammer works. I do that all the time when removing bolts. That quick tap frees them instantly - a poor mans impact wrench.
You can tap on the head a few times. That can help break the rusty bond in the head.
Let me ask this.. as you were loosening it, did you also tighten it back down every little bit? So out a little in a little, out a little, in a little, and slowly work it free?
Just a thought. I am not familiar enough to know what is in that general area behind the bolt.. if you use a small propane torch try not to get the bolt hot, you want the surrounding hole to heat up and expand.
So bolt or rust looseners may be flammable.. so don't douse it with that and then hit it with the torch, I would hate to see a small fire or explosion.
Pay no attention to the naysayers. There are a couple of prick-headed mofos on this board.
If you feel confident, go for it. If not...hey, try it anyway! How else are you going to learn? :P
Its not rust holding it in, its galvanic corrosion....dissimilar metals and all that and another one of the reasons why sensible engine designers specify studs and nuts to hold headers in place.
Even if you do manage to get the bolt out there wont be much of a thread left.
Get yourself a helicoil kit....you are going to need it :thumb:
Despite the cold weather, rust and stripped bolt head, I actually had a very easy time getting the bolt out once I took the heat gun to it. Perhaps the Liquid Wrench finally made it in, but once I used the heat gun on the surrounding area and got it to around 150 degrees (according to my IR thermometer), I used a pipe wrench plier and was able to get the bolt out within minutes. I really should have tried this first. Live and learn!
New engine is mounted and after attaching the carbs and injecting some gas, the engine fired up. Despite not having the airbox, exhaust, or the hoses properly connected, I was surprised at how the engine came to life on the first try. My project tonight is to figure out the hose routing on this new engine/carb seeing as how it has some extra parts I'm not familiar with. This one came with a PAIR Valve (which was easy to figure out) but something just seems off with the connections and the diagrams I can find don't seem to answer all of my questions.
I do have another question. While cleaning up we found this little piece laying around. I don't recognize it and it might not even be part of the bike, but anyone recognize this thing?
(http://i.imgur.com/5QYwNl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/5QYwN)
I don't know because I've never seen it in person, but I hope that's not the pin that goes in the end of the crankshaft for positioning the timing rotor.
Did you remove the neutral sensor from the left side of the engine? It looks like the pin for the neutral switch. If neutral light comes on, then you didn't or if you did, then the spring that pushes on the pin is making contact.
Quote from: adidasguy on December 28, 2012, 01:01:36 PM
Did you remove the neutral sensor from the left side of the engine?
Ding ding ding! I bet this is it. When I was removing the bad engine I removed "something" from the left side of the engine (just above the sprocket) before I realized it was easier to disconnect the wiring on the other end. When I get home I'll verify.
Gracias!
Wow you guys are awesome and obviously have experience with these. To me it looked like the jets out of my banshee carb.
Good deal, glad it fired up thats a good sign and motivational for sure.
As for the PAIR system, you can disconnect the vac lines and remove all of it. You can take the ends that mount the the head and cut the pipes off, weld closed the holes and put them back in place as block off plates. You also could use something like liquid steel which is a 2 part putty that works well.
I decided to keep the PAIR system in place. One thing I noticed is that with the PAIR all hooked up, there is absolutely nothing left unconnected on any of the hoses (unless I screwed up.)
Some notes from the work I did tonight:
- The new engine already had a exhaust gaskets crushed in there. I tried to get them out for a minute before I remembered that Budda sometimes will put two in for a better fit or something. Decided to do the same. No issues so far.
- I noticed the exhaust had 3 connection points but I couldn't figure out how to connect the middle to the frame. I may be missing a piece and will look at some diagrams later.
- I decided to leave the 16T on instead of my 15T. I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up changing this.
So, after putting it all together, I shot this video for my girlfriend who had to work late and wanted a status update: does it run (http://youtu.be/bkC8RGvbgcA)? :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
Took it around the block a few times and it feels NICE, but it does "seem" to have a little less power than my old engine. I'm 70% certain it's due to the 16T.
The exhaust connects to the bike at the engine and the rear passenger peg.
What may look like a place for the bolt in the middle gets a rubber bumper. That is the UP position stop for the centet stand.
Watch my video on changing the exhaust. You'll see. http://youtu.be/4eMGNolMuEU
sweet deal man. nice quick turn around.
I appreciate everyone's help.
Took the bike for a long ride and have discovered a major flat spot / loss of power after reading approximately 5K RPM. Seeing as how I used the donor bike's carbs/airbox/air filter/fuel petcock, I'm fairly sure it's an issue in that area. I had too much housework to do yesterday so I wasn't able to work on the bike, but next up I'm going to try, in order:
- 1.) Running in Prime
- 2.) Removing Air Filter -> Replacing with my K&N
- 3.) Carb Cleaning/Rebuild
I've been thinking of sending the carbs from my old engine out to Buddha for a rebuild. Might be a good idea to get on that so I can perform a swap later if necessary.
You just swapped the motor. The carbs are really not that hard. I say go for the rebuild yourself or swap yours onto it and see how it goes.
Most likely a dirty carb issue if they sat for any timeframe.
why not just swap your old carbs over if they worked well?
Quote from: gsatterw on January 02, 2013, 07:46:13 PM
why not just swap your old carbs over if they worked well?
Mostly because they'd been sitting since April and I figured the donor carbs would be in better condition than my old carbs.
I haven't had time to work on the bike this last week but hopefully can get it all wrapped up this weekend.