Now that it's getting down to 20 degrees outside cold starts are a little finicky. I know that's partly just the nature of it but I wanted to get some others' opinions on the situation.
It seems my choke doesn't really add gas to the mix when really cold :dunno_black:
It 'starts' cold just as easily without using the choke (maybe even a little easier) and dies within a few putters. I have to crank it until it starts puttering and give it a little throttle/revs for a few seconds before it will even idle with the choke on. With the choke on while still cold the revs hang like it's lean. I thought I might have a torn seal on the plunger, but once warm under normal idle the plugs come out light tan/brown, and under idle with the choke they come out very dark brown, so everything seems in order. Rides fine when warm as well, just a tiny bit flat on the pilot circuit. I think I may need to try larger pilots (currently running 40s). Bike is stored outside without a tender, and unfortunately there's no way to fix this. It does crank noticeably slower, however this really seems like a mixture issue to me. I do go out at least once a week (and do over 30 miles every time I go out) so the bike isn't being particularly neglected, it's just really cold. Any thoughts?
Cold is a problem for any carbureted vehicle.
I've only been down to about 30 here in Seattle.
What I find is the old trick my dad used with his old Plymouth works well. The trick is to warm up the battery.
He would say to turn on the lights for a minute. That draw on the battery stared the chemical reactions, thus causing the battery to warm up, which makes it work better.
What I do on my bikes is:
1. Choke on
2. Try to start for 5-10 seconds
3. Wait 10-20 seconds
4. Repeat - will crank a little faster
5. Repeat - will crank a little faster still
6. Will most likely instantly start this time and idle around 3k-4k if it didn't start on the previous try.
7. Over the next 30 seconds, bring down choke but keep 2k or higher and take off.
8. After a block or two, I bring the choke down farther, usually fully off within 30 more seconds.
With the choke on, the revs probably will hang around 4k. Let it warm up for 10 seconds or more and start reducing the choke.
Nothing you mention seems that out of line.
As a note:
1. LiFe Shorai battery. While much more cranking ability, they are a little sensitive to the cold so the warm up technique really helps with them.
2. Brusk performance plugs. While overall superior performance, they do require good voltage and won't fire as easily with low voltage as regular plugs. This is due to two reasons: a) longer spark path and b) higher resistance in the plug itself compared to regular resistor plugs.
There are things I plan to experiment with and things you can try:
1. If stock plugs, use non-resistor plugs as the plug cap has a resistor of about 22k ohms already. Less resistance = better spark
2. Remove resistor from spark plug cap and replace with piece of thick wire. This I can try because all Brisk plugs are resistor plugs
3. Run better ground from battery to coils (someone on the board did this and reported performance improvements due to better spark). I plan to try this and measure the resistance & voltages
4. Run thick +12 to the coils (same note as above)
As a side note: part of my issues here in Seattle may be due to the fog lately. Everything gets wet. I'm sure the few crank attempts help to blow the water out of the carbs, jets, airbox and everywhere else. Lots of white smoke for a few minutes as all the condensation boils away. So much condensation that trees actually drip water! Like its raining but it is not raining. I did notice that a bike parked in the unheated Bike Cave will always start easier and isn't covered in water. All this applies to my bikes with 89-00 engines and ones with 2004+ engines.
My cold starting trick is so reliable that I'm going to make a video showing me starting a bike this way in the cold. One key is don't over crank and stress the battery. If it slows down and seems like it will stall, stop cranking as that will stress the battery and can damage the windings in the starter motor.
What Adidasguy said.
I have started my 2009 GS 500 as cold as 18*F. It started, but was noticeably cranky. No throttle needed, just choke, neutral, clutch, start.
I'd try richening the idle screws. May help a tad. 1/2 turn. Use 10w40 oil. I used to use diesel oil, and it struggled in the winter. Check your water level if you have a conventional battery. Make sure it is correct.
My jetting is based on the newer carb, check my sig.
Good reminder: I forgot to say BE IN NEUTRAL!
Just having the clutch in, the clutch plates are sticky. Being in neutral is different than just pulling in the clutch. In neutral, the gears are not even trying to turn the clutch and all the following parts & thingies.
Yeah, I seriously doubt it would have started if it were in gear. It's supposed to be 23 tomorrow so I suppose I'll try firing it up like normal to see how much of it is the bike being cranky from the cold, and how much of it is the toll on the battery from having the bike sitting there for the past 5 days in anywhere between 5 and 50 degrees. I'm due for new plugs by now and should probably put on new ignition cables too.
Right now it's got 15w40, which the manual says is okay down to 4 degrees. I may decide differently myself. Thanks for the suggestions.
If the manual says 15w40 should be good down to 4 degrees I think you'll be fine. It will just be a little thick at first start up but will start to thin out the warmer it gets. If you go any thicker you could have flow problems.
When was the last time that you checked your valve clearance?
Quote from: craigs449 on January 23, 2013, 07:50:28 PM
When was the last time that you checked your valve clearance?
~600 miles ago, exhausts run .05 over spec as suggested by others. Otherwise all on the wide side of spec.
How old is your battery? A battery's maximum current capacity diminishes with age and with colder temperatures. A battery that is adequate under nominal conditions might come up short if it gets cold enough. One way to test this theory would be to jump start the bike (cold) with a car battery (car not running).
Battery is supposedly less than a year old, voltage and electrolyte was checked a month ago. It is a floody though.
My bike had the exact same symptoms as yours. As soon as the temps get over 40 degrees, the bike seems perfectly fine and starts up great. Around 30 degrees, especially if outside in the wind, the bike will hardly turn over and might take me 5 minutes to get it started.
I also found this to be a battery issue, it just doesn't like the cold and needs to warm up. As adidas said, you can just sit there patiently with the headlight on and turning it over a few times.
However, since I commute on my GS and I am usually in a hurry, that wasn't working for me. I found that keeping the bike on a battery tender over night keeps the battery topped up and a little warmer so the bike always starts in the first couple tries.
My bike does have +1 on the jets and brisk plugs and Shorai battery. Shorai battery hates the cold even more than normal battery.
Quote from: craigs449 on January 23, 2013, 07:50:28 PM
When was the last time that you checked your valve clearance?
Exactly what I was going to mention. With valves clearances out of spec, cold starts can be very hard if any at all.
I just went through this on the wifes scooter I recently bought. PO bought it, couldnt get it to start and said it was a carb issue. While the carb did need cleaning, I could only get it to start with ether and even then it would only restart once it was warm.
Int and Exh on a GY6150cc is 0.05mm and the exh was tight and the int was loose. After adjusting the valves, now I can bump the starter button and it fires right up. Same with my bike too
Badot said above he checked valves 600 miles ago and all were set on the wide side so that shouldn't be a problem for another 10k miles or so.
Badot, how's your air cleaner element? I had a very dirtry one in a couple winters ago and bike acted exactly as you describe. Would flood very quickly if choke was used and would not start until choke circuits were closed. Would then start without choke but would not run without it. Was necessary to start w/o choke and then give it choke as soon as the engine caught. A badly plugged air cleaner increases the vacuum inside the carbs while cranking and sucks excess gas in thru the other jets so it doesn't need the choke to start.
Air cleaner seems fine to me. Not particularly clean but nowhere near due for a cleaning.
I tore down the carbs today, bent the choke arms so they both open the same (they were a bit staggered), cleaned everything up real good, and reset the float heights and noticed one of the o-rings on the float post (choke o-ring) was swollen enough to be hard to put back in the carb body. On closer inspection they both looked pretty old and crusty and broke before I could stretch them far enough to take them off. From my understanding this bike had been sitting in the PO's heated garage/workshop for the past few years so this is probably the first in a long time it's been out in any real cold. Perhaps they've always been leaking a bit, or the cold just finally made them crack.
Regardless, I've ordered some new o-rings... yes, ordered... I walked to the only hardware store here and then the only auto parts store here and neither had metric o-rings :technical:. The guy at the hardware store told me he had never even heard of metric o-rings. Hopefully the new ones make the starts a bit easier.
Well, got everything back together and no change. On closer inspection it looked like the choke o-rings wouldn't have done anything except give some friction to hold the float holder on... There's a little drilled hole in the carb body that basically bypasses the o-ring. Looks exactly the same on both carbs so I assume that's how it comes from the factory :dunno_black:
Next suspect is oil thickness... I noticed it took 20 seconds or so for the oil light to come back on after a good crank. But could it still be able to crank at a reasonable speed and not fire up because of that? Maybe it's just not able to make enough vacuum to suck the gas up the choke lines.
After cranking last night, the cylinders didn't feel cold (~15 degrees out), but they didn't feel warm either. I can only assume this means that combustion is happening to some extent. Checked the spark and both were blue-purple, and put a little oil in each cylinder, no change.
We're not supposed to have lead acid batteries in the dorm for some reason... So today I may or may not walk down to the auto parts store and pick up a charger and may or may not pull the battery and bring it inside. I'll probably grab some synthetic oil too.
Well, I'm starting to suspect goat's.
Yesterday (~40 degrees) I pulled the battery off charge and popped it in the bike. Choked and started just like it should. Rode ~60 miles and left the battery in the bike.
Today (~55 degrees) I went to start the bike with choke, puttered and died. Without choke, exactly the same. Had to give it throttle until it was warm again. After the usual ~60 mile ride I pull the battery and hook it up to the charger and it takes approx. an hour to fully charge.
I find it odd that the only real 'symptom' of what I imagine is a semi-low battery is the choke 'not working', but it does seem to be an electrical/charging issue.
Why goat's? Well, last Summer at one point my bike made a nice 'clack' noise and stopped spinning when I tried to start it one morning. Turned the engine over by hand no problem, tried starting again and it fired up fine. It ran fine and made the same power, but ever since then it's had a bit of a rattle at 3.5-5k RPMs... not particularly loud, and not getting worse, but very consistent. Anyways, now that it's colder I'm suspecting maybe the charging system isn't putting out quite enough volts to combat the cold.
But of course, before I go tearing the bike down I'm going to run out and grab another multimeter and check out the relevant electrics.
Well, "goats" is broken magnets (from what I figured out - is a local GStwin term).
Suspects:
1. Bad battery - won't hold a charge and that you can easily verify with your meter
2. Bad voltage regulator - also quite possible and can be verified with your meter
Highly unlikely the stator or magnets broken. You can verify the stator with your meter.
If not charging, then it would be #1 or #2 99% of the time. If magnets were breaking off, you'd have lots of issues including but not limited to not charging, bad oil flow, blocked oil passages from metal fragments.
Also sounds like your choke isn't working properly. In the manuals it is referred to as the "starter circuit" or "starting system". They don't use the term "choke" in case you look it up in the index. Be sure all the choke parts and cable are put back the way they should be.
Quote from: adidasguy on January 28, 2013, 06:19:22 PM
If magnets were breaking off, you'd have lots of issues including but not limited to not charging, bad oil flow, blocked oil passages from metal fragments.
Even with the oil screen and filter?
Also, would it be possible that with 'mild' goats that the stator still makes a reduced amount of voltage?
Quote from: adidasguy on January 28, 2013, 06:19:22 PM
Also sounds like your choke isn't working properly. In the manuals it is referred to as the "starter circuit" or "starting system". They don't use the term "choke" in case you look it up in the index. Be sure all the choke parts and cable are put back the way they should be.
That was my first thought too. But with whether it works or not flip-flopping and having the same symptoms after going through the carbs twice, I'm not sure it's that. And the deciding factor in whether the choke seems to work or not seems to be whether or not the battery's been left off the charger. Just what I've observed, I'm rather baffled by it myself.
And yep, I know it's not an actual choke. But if I say enrichener circuit I feel like it'll leave some people scratching their heads. Not to mention it says 'Choke' (and even has a picture of an actual choke!) on the left hand controls, so it can't be too wrong to call it that.
Either way, probably going to grab a multimeter tomorrow or the day after, I'll post the results then.
I think Bluesmudge got it.
I had borrowed a friend's multimeter and it was saying I had 50 volts coming from my stator and about 11 going to the battery. I decided to double check it's accuracy and I'm glad I did because it also said that the +5v rail in my computer was at 3.5 volts. Lesson -- don't use cheap multimeters.
Anyways, went out and bought my own when the snow went away and the charging system seems fine, ~13.5v@2500 RPM, 14v@5000. Infinite resistance between the battery connectors so it's not getting drained by a short. Stayed up late that night/morning experimenting with the battery (-10 windchill and snowing :cookoo:) and it does seem that the problem is related to the temperature of the battery and how long it's been at that temperature. If I warm it up inside and pop it right back in it won't be too much better, but if I leave it inside while warm for a few hours it's much better.
The battery still sits at 12.7 volts when charged regardless of temperature, it just doesn't seem to like the cold.
A new AGM battery will be in the mail soon.
In winter, the dead of winter, I have trouble starting my GS (ie, it won't start first go like it normally does) under the following conditions...
1 - sitting outside
2 - windy
Cold and inside it starts fine. Windy and warm fine. Outside and cold without wind, fine. But outside cold with wind, it can take up to four tries to get it going. We haven't had such a cold winter last year so it wasn't an issue. We'll see how this winter goes.
My trick mentioned a while ago always works for me.
Try - wait 15 seconds, repeat. Usually starts 3rd time and almost always by 4th try. Battery gets warmed up.
Might also be an issue of condensation - foggy and damp here. Maybe outside in cold wind you get some condensation or even ice crystals inside. A couple tries blows out the moisture and things get a little warmed up just from turning over the engine.
Just a quick update in case someone else is having the same problem.
New AGM battery in, ran it for a couple weeks, and the first night that it got real cold I had the same issue (rode the day before so it's not like the charge was sapped slowly). Popped the old flooded cell back in that has been sitting on the floor without being charged after removing from the bike. Fired up on the first compression. I guess they just hate the cold (more than I would have expected).
Gotta love that LiFe battery. so. much. juice.
But I guess it doesn't get below 40 here. so.
Graham :2guns:
My LiFe battery sucks below 40 degrees. Even worse than a normal motorcycle battery. They are great when its warm out, but mine was causing me grief every cold morning until I started putting it on a tender.
Sometime adidasguy's trick would work but I don't have time for it most mornings. Battery tender after every ride ---> starts up first or second time, every time.
Suzi starts very well. My "trick" only takes maybe 30 seconds - never more than a minute. Phenix is a little more fussy but I have some basic maintenance due for him like cleaning carbs (which I never did) and checking the valves (been about a year and 2000 miles since I built him).
Brisk plugs are a little cold blooded (longer spark path and higher internal resistance). Dave switched his to Iridium for the cold weather and will switch back when it stays above 45. I do plan to swap plug caps with ones that had the resistor removed.
Hoping for a good weekend of wrenching.