So I live in Iowa where it is just plain cold lately. Anyway it was dry last Friday and nice out so I rode to work. I got off work went outside to warm up my bike. Opened the choke up and went inside for a minute. Well I got distracted and 15 minutes later I comeout to a smoking bike. I shut it off and waited for it too cool down. When I went to crank it over I simply got a clicking noise. Hasn't even tried to crank over in a week.
Any suggestions. Uncle said I probably fried a piston ring. He's good with bikes but he also says it's hard to diagnose without taking it apart and looking at the damage.
See if you can crank by hand by removing the ignition pickup cover. Best case, a dead battery. Worse case, a new engine.
Hindsight, but do you have enough oil?
Clicking noise when attempting to start is usually signs of a dead battery. Try giving the battery a charge before pulling the engine apart
Not sure if its even possible to damage the engine from idling with choke on. Back on my first gs, i'd forget to shut choke off on some 20-30 miles rides, worse was a fouled plug.
Edit; damn jester beat me to the battery hunch!
Tried manually cranking it but nothing, it was stuck but i didnt try to hard didnt want to force it. I tried juming it cause my battery does suck, but still just a clicking.
Take out the plugs, put in gear, and try to move the bike forward. That will eliminate the compression "resistance". If it moves without the rear wheel leaving a skid mark, replace battery.
If rear wheel leaves a skid mark and will not move at all in gear, you have a major engine issue and the prognosis in my opinion is not good. These engines are very sensitive about oil levels due to the types of bearings used.
I'm going to vote on an oil issue maybe causing a lock up over an overheating issue. I know just because we have the same bike doesn't mean they are all the same, but mine has idled quite a bit and never issues.
Idling with choke on might be around 4k rpm. Leaving it sitting like that for 15-20 minutes might causes problems I supposed, but I would think that your oil level was probably really low.
Keep the oil level FULL, but not over-full. Oil and air cool our bikes. Lack of any of the two (mainly oil) will cause problems.
I would be scared to set my chock and walk off for 15 minutes.
I always check my oil every morning be for taking it out of the garage. I agree with the above, your oil level was probably way low or worse case possibly oil line was kinked some how(or filter clogged more then likely imo).
I could see the bike consuming a decent amount of oil left to spin at 5k for 15 minutes.
Have you checked the oil after the bike stopped working? If it was empty, then that will figure out what happened. If it was full, then likely something else happened.
Quote from: jestercinti on March 21, 2013, 07:47:53 AM
Take out the plugs, put in gear, and try to move the bike forward. That will eliminate the compression "resistance". If it moves without the rear wheel leaving a skid mark, replace battery.
If rear wheel leaves a skid mark and will not move at all in gear, you have a major engine issue and the prognosis in my opinion is not good. These engines are very sensitive about oil levels due to the types of bearings used.
if you do this and it breaks loose you had a soft siezure. air cooled engines need air. if it starts and runs with no racket change the oil since it is now toast. and all you really did was add around 5-10 wear to the cylinders in a short period of time. but still keep an eye on the oil consumption for a bit.
Related question, but is leaving a bike idling @4/5k for 15 minutes really that much more in terms of wear/tear than riding it at those RPMs for that time period? I can imagine it getting hot but hot enough to really mess up something that bad?
My guess is that there were issues before this incident.
Just happened to be the straw that broke the camel's back.
Im assuming those you you who need to choke your bike are up north and in colder climates?
With mine dead cold, I can hit the starter and it will fire up and I can jump on it and ride with no issues. No choke needed for me.
Weed, that may work in Valdosta, Tifton, or wherever you live, but up in the midwest, we must use a lot of choke.
I'm sure if I switched to a 22.5 pilot, no need to choke.
Quote from: Beau on March 21, 2013, 07:36:33 AM
Tried manually cranking it but nothing, it was stuck but i didnt try to hard didnt want to force it. I tried juming it cause my battery does suck, but still just a clicking.
try removing plugs, putting her in 6th and see if you can roll it with clutch out
Quote from: jestercinti on March 22, 2013, 06:38:31 PM
Weed, that may work in Valdosta, Tifton, or wherever you live, but up in the midwest, we must use a lot of choke.
I'm sure if I switched to a 22.5 pilot, no need to choke.
Yeah, thats why I was asking if it were for the persons that live north of us down here. I could never deal with snow and ice :cookoo:
Quote from: weedahoe on March 22, 2013, 06:49:10 PM
Quote from: jestercinti on March 22, 2013, 06:38:31 PM
Weed, that may work in Valdosta, Tifton, or wherever you live, but up in the midwest, we must use a lot of choke.
I'm sure if I switched to a 22.5 pilot, no need to choke.
Yeah, thats why I was asking if it were for the persons that live north of us down here. I could never deal with snow and ice :cookoo:
There calling for rain and snow here in the next few days... Kentucky weather is on the rag. :bs:
First of all just wanted to thank everyone for their time and help. Guess I should go into a little detail about what I have already tested and such.
First thing I did when i heard the clicking was try to jump start it.
Then I tried to push start it(don't really have any experience) neither worked.
Then I tried softly to manually crank it. Nothing. I tried later a bit more umph and it broke lose. After that tried to start it again, still nothing just clicking.
I tested the relay and starter this morning but had to go to work before i could test after the reinstall of the starter. Both seemed to work out of the bike though.
Again thanks everyone for your help.
"it broke lose" then it as seized. there was actually a video on youtube that showed how to soak these engines to free them up(diesel and something else mixed into the cylinder), but i would be concerned with how it got hot enough to seize in the first place (no oil flow etc).
Quote from: wayne242 on March 23, 2013, 01:47:29 AM
"it broke lose" then it as seized. there was actually a video on youtube that showed how to soak these engines to free them up(diesel and something else mixed into the cylinder), but i would be concerned with how it got hot enough to seize in the first place (no oil flow etc).
It's an 05, an F model with fairings and running at fast idle while not moving it got so hot inside the fairings of the parked bike it cooked the oil and seized the engine. Gotta have some air moving thru there cooling the engine even with an oil cooler.
Quote from: Beau on March 22, 2013, 10:28:01 PM...................Then I tried softly to manually crank it. Nothing. I tried later a bit more umph and it broke lose. After that tried to start it again, still nothing just clicking.......................
Like oldmech said above you've put a lot of miles on that engine real quick and possibly done some damage to the rings/cyls too. I had a CB750K years ago, a hot running engine already, that seized up on me one very hot summer day in heavy traffic, I managed to swing into a McDonalds parking lot and get it pushed into a parking place. Just clicked when I tried to restart so I sat inside drinking cokes until the engine cooled and tried to start. Clicked it a number of times until the engine finally broke loose and restarted and rode it home. Bike was never the same after that, the #4 cyl was damaged and had little compression. It ran reasonably smooth with that cyl firing but very rough when it quit firing. The plug would oil foul out every 500 miles or so and I carried a couple spares with me and changed that plug when it fouled out to finish that season. :icon_lol:
well i got the top end off and i screwed it up good heres some pics lol yay
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ouch!! sorry to see that dude. :icon_sad:
how do the cylinders look?
not a scratch on the walls the piston itself has a small scratch. It looks as though the spring seat ruptured after being heated and rapidly cooled. going to go through it a bit more tomorrow hoping thats the only issue though.
Quote from: weedahoe on March 22, 2013, 06:29:34 PM
Im assuming those you you who need to choke your bike are up north and in colder climates?
With mine dead cold, I can hit the starter and it will fire up and I can jump on it and ride with no issues. No choke needed for me.
I live in San Diego and my bike starts fine with no choke. I do usually let it idle with some choke for like 30 seconds because it will die at idle right after starting. I start it and ride it with no real problems though I've just stalled it at lights before cold and don't want to relive the embarrassment.
Thats a dropped valve seat, the head has got that hot its expanded beyond service limits and the seat has loosened off and ......dropped out!
If the bottom end turns freely you might be lucky and get away with just a replacement head.
If the rest of the engine has lived change the oil and filter.
Will the pistons move freely now? And before the incident happened when was the last time you checked your oil?
http://mechdb.com/index.php/Valve_seat (http://mechdb.com/index.php/Valve_seat)
Quote from: sledge on March 24, 2013, 11:53:51 AM
http://mechdb.com/index.php/Valve_seat (http://mechdb.com/index.php/Valve_seat)
Good info there, just got done reading it myself :cheers:
thanks to everyone for your help. I think i may get away with only replacing the seat itself. The cylinder and head are both still in factory spec. the piston only has a scratch on the top.
Im going to hone the cylinder and polish the piston replace the piston rings while im in there. I have spent the last day checking the head and cylinder for damage.
Neither seem the worse for wear.
Quote from: sledge on March 24, 2013, 11:53:51 AM
http://mechdb.com/index.php/Valve_seat (http://mechdb.com/index.php/Valve_seat)
Back in the 70's very Datsun B210 with an A14 engine had brass<IIRC? valve seats, the aluminum head would expand at a different rate and the valve seat would eventually fall into the cylinder.
Quote from: Beau on March 24, 2013, 12:40:53 PM
thanks to everyone for your help. I think i may get away with only replacing the seat itself. The cylinder and head are both still in factory spec.
I doubt it :dunno_black:
After this sort of damage I would be very surprised if the seat housings in the head are not damaged and can still give the necessary amount of interference needed to hold the seat in place, I would also be surprised if the exhaust valves are not bent or damaged on the sealing face. These things need to be checked with precision measuring equipment, you just cant do it by eye.
"I think i may get away with only replacing the seat itself"It may be possible but its not something you yourself will be able to do......they dont just hammer in :D
This sort of thing needs to be left to a pro. What usually happens is you take the head to an engine shop, they do all the inspections and checks and determine the workscope. If the head is salvageable they will supply or make a suitable seat if the housing is significantly oversized and a new valve and guide if needed. Fitting the seat involves freezing it with liquid nitrogen so it contracts and shrinks to fit the housing. Its then machined in situ to give the correct heights/diameters. You then need to lap the valve and reassemble and shim the valvegear
http://www.ultimatep.com/Engineering_Services_Valve_seat_insert_replacement.asp
Its a straightforward and easy job for someone who knows what they are doing and has the gear but.......it will cost you.
Issues like this become a question of economics, the price of a decent used head ready to fit against the time and cost of having the original professionally reclaimed and everything else that is involved...I know what option I would take but its your call :thumb:
The seat Im speaking of is part of the head and does just hammer in. However no one sells them so rather than spena bunch of time having one machined im just going to replace the head. You know it's funny when you have to buy a $100 part because they don't sell the $2 part. LOL but screw it