So this whole mess started when i noticed that the engine performance at high speeds (50 ish) was sub par. The bike just seemed to hesitate. It was very bizarre. I know it can go faster than that. Also, fuel was leaking out of the pee pee hose by my right foot peg.
So i tried seafoam and i think it's helping but the thought from adidasguy (praise the man!) was that i could have a stuck float bowl.
I opened up the airbox and sure enough, there was sign of fuel in the airbox itself. At least it looks like it to me.
I took a bunch of photos
http://imgur.com/a/hGp0L
So I continued to take the carbs off as well to inspect the float bowls, you'll see photos of that as well. With rust in the float bowls. I guess i should clean that out.
THere is a minute different between the two floats. One of them is slightly bent (the left one).
My understanding is that the floats are kind of like a switch that opens and closes. It pushes up a little metal thing and in some cases, it tends to not fall down all the way completely (if that makes any sense at all)
I'm not really sure where to go from here. I guess i can get the carb jets cleaned out and clean out the float bowls. However, i'm not sure what to do about those floats.
The other thing to note is the pictures of the engine that i took where the valves are not completely alined. i'm not sure why or if that's normal but thought it was something interesting to note. again, i'm a total newb.
Any advice is appreciated!
thanks!
Anoop
Definitely want to clean out your carbs. Pull the jets out, along with the floats and float needles. Have an air compressor? It's not necessary, but makes the job much easier.
Have you looked into the fuel level first? You can check it while the carbs are still mounted to the bike with a clear hose on the fuel drain located on the float bowls. But you can check the float height now since you have then apart as well - the numbers are around here somewhere ......
hey big rich.
thanks for replying.
in one of the photos, you'll notice that one of the floats isn't in "down" all the way. i don't know if that's because of of the floats (left one) is sort of bent. or if that's normal.
http://i.imgur.com/WDUEUuLh.jpg <-- bent plastic piece
http://i.imgur.com/hTsIyZmh.jpg <-- not bent plastic piece.
I searched for float height and i'm starting to understand more about it now. The floats are kind of like the toilet bowl. Gas lifts up the float and closes the fuel intake where the needle is?
I can't see the difference in the pictures (but I'm also on my phone).
You're correct about the operation of them though. You said it was the right carb that was flooding? Normally I would say set the float height from it to match the left carb, but it could just be dirty carbs still. Best way to find out is to measure of course. But you could clean them thoroughly, reinstall, and check the float height with a clear tube.
It's the left carb I think based on this photo of the inside of the airbox
http://i.imgur.com/dZWjQith.jpg
So If the float height is off, the needle is not going to look the same on both carbs. is that right?
so i basically adjust it by bending the metal tab where the float needle hangs?
i'm reading up on float height adjustment now.
i also failed to get new o-rings to replace the ones on the floats so i'll have to go do that tomorrow. Apparently, there's a one time use only kind of thing...
thanks again!
Quote from: anoopb on April 03, 2013, 08:51:35 PM
i also failed to get new o-rings to replace the ones on the floats so i'll have to go do that tomorrow. Apparently, there's a one time use only kind of thing...
thanks again!
You can reuse the orings if they are in good order.
Use a little grease or vasoline (NOT petroleum Jelly) on the o-ring to seat it back into the hole well.
I did turn on image attachments. Maybe upload them right into this thread. Some people don't like to click on links.
Quote from: john on April 03, 2013, 10:10:21 PM
I did turn on image attachments. Maybe upload them right into this thread. Some people don't like to click on links.
many thanks. i'll upload them.
Pic of the inside of the airbox. Looks like the left side is leaking based on the "wetness".
Float bowls taken off. Need a good cleaning :)
Pics of the right and left carb. Left one being the suspect. Note how the needle is in at different lengths between the two?
Thanks for reading! :)
edit: attaching smaller images...
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Several things I see that need done here...
1. A thorough cleaning - Use Carb cleaner spray with the red tube straight through all the passages, and compressed air as suggested. Clean out that rust in the bowls with carb cleaner and an old toothbrush. Clean the needle valve and needle valve seat as best you can and inspect the seat o-ring and replace if necessary. Search for BaltimoreGS's carb cleaning video.
2. Replace you float bowl gaskets - http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/687/SKU/186233
3. Set the float heights - Hold the carb upside down and press down on the part of the float that doesn't move while in operation. Measure from the float bowl gasket surface to the top of the float, and it should be 14mm + or - 1mm (Need to check the manual on this). If it's not then bend the metal tab until it comes into range. Then put it back together and use a clear tube on the carb drain to check the height of the gas in the bowls. The height of the gas in the bowl should be at the same level as the float bowl gasket. If you can't get it to settle at that height by adjusting the metal tabs, then you need to replace your needle valve and needle valve seat which is sold as one part. Part number 33 on this parts fiche (http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/2/Make/Suzuki/YearID/34/Year/1993/ModelID/7106/Model/GS500E/GroupID/307499/Group/CARBURETOR). It includes the o-ring on the needle valve seat even though it doesn't look like it should from the fiche.
Notice that I sent you the the 1993 parts fiche. That's because the part has been superceded, but if you order the old part number on ronayers for the old price of $23 (instead of $40 for the new part), they will send you the new part anyway and charge you the old price.
You should also consider cleaning out your fuel tank and replacing your fuel lines, because obviously that's where the rust is coming from.
Quote from: bombsquad83 on April 04, 2013, 06:51:52 AM
Several things I see that need done here...
1. A thorough cleaning - Use Carb cleaner spray with the red tube straight through all the passages, and compressed air as suggested. Clean out that rust in the bowls with carb cleaner and an old toothbrush. Clean the needle valve and needle valve seat as best you can and inspect the seat o-ring and replace if necessary. Search for BaltimoreGS's carb cleaning video.
2. Replace you float bowl gaskets - http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/687/SKU/186233
3. Set the float heights - Hold the carb upside down and press down on the part of the float that doesn't move while in operation. Measure from the float bowl gasket surface to the top of the float, and it should be 14mm + or - 1mm (Need to check the manual on this). If it's not then bend the metal tab until it comes into range. Then put it back together and use a clear tube on the carb drain to check the height of the gas in the bowls. The height of the gas in the bowl should be at the same level as the float bowl gasket. If you can't get it to settle at that height by adjusting the metal tabs, then you need to replace your needle valve and needle valve seat which is sold as one part. Part number 33 on this parts fiche (http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/2/Make/Suzuki/YearID/34/Year/1993/ModelID/7106/Model/GS500E/GroupID/307499/Group/CARBURETOR). It includes the o-ring on the needle valve seat even though it doesn't look like it should from the fiche.
Notice that I sent you the the 1993 parts fiche. That's because the part has been superceded, but if you order the old part number on ronayers for the old price of $23 (instead of $40 for the new part), they will send you the new part anyway and charge you the old price.
You should also consider cleaning out your fuel tank and replacing your fuel lines, because obviously that's where the rust is coming from.
Damn!
Thanks for the prompt reply bombsquad83
Sorry if i'm being a newb here. This is my first carb cleaning adventure.
When you say spray straight through all of the passages, which passages?
I was going to take off the jets and clean those out. should i be spraying in the holes where the jets are? Isn't there possibility of damaging the diaphragm under the diaphragm cap? I was hoping not to take those apart as well.
I'm going to call around and see if i can find new o-rings and the float bowl gaskets instead of having them shipped (i'm trying to get it back together today so i can ride this weekend)
I'll look into the gas tank cleaning as well and replacing the hoses.
Thankfully, i have a store in the city called Champion Cycle. They're shady on service but usually have the parts I need.
As far as the engine intake, see the pics below. See how those valves are not perfectly aligned? Is that normal? also, seems like there's a lot of gunk on valve heads. is that a big concern?
Thanks again!
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Here is the carb cleaning video:
I wouldn't worry about your valves yet, but I would check your oil to see if it smells like gas. It looks like you have had gas leaking into your cylinders, and it can work it's way past the rings into the oil. After you fix the sticking float needle valves, you will want to change your oil.
Quote from: bombsquad83 on April 04, 2013, 07:32:20 AM
Here is the carb cleaning video:
I wouldn't worry about your valves yet, but I would check your oil to see if it smells like gas. It looks like you have had gas leaking into your cylinders, and it can work it's way past the rings into the oil. After you fix the sticking float needle valves, you will want to change your oil.
yeah i've been analyzing that video constantly. It's a really great how to. Came in very handy.
I'll get the oil changed as soon as i get the float height fixed. Is it worth while to just take the carbs into a shop where they can clean it and do it right?
thanks!
i wouldn't go spraying carb or brake cleaner in or on the carbs. some will eat the plastics and rubbers inside. not all are created equally. WD-40 is safer.
even easier than that is a nice soak in warm pinesol. just dunk the entire carbs, bowls, jets, everything in pinesol that is warm. in one night all the gunk/rust will loosen and be ready for a nice rinsing with gasoline or diesel.
careful when spraying the (remove first!) jets with anything. they'll fly away and hide under a leaf in a hurry.
replace all the orings you can. they will compress and/or crack and leak fuel into the cyilnders.
the airbox just needs a blowing out with compressed air or soapy water washing.
careful on the reassembly. the vacuum slides and diaphrams need gentle handling. :thumb:
Quote from: ohgood on April 04, 2013, 07:54:46 AM
i wouldn't go spraying carb or brake cleaner in or on the carbs. some will eat the plastics and rubbers inside. not all are created equally. WD-40 is safer.
even easier than that is a nice soak in warm pinesol. just dunk the entire carbs, bowls, jets, everything in pinesol that is warm. in one night all the gunk/rust will loosen and be ready for a nice rinsing with gasoline or diesel.
careful when spraying the (remove first!) jets with anything. they'll fly away and hide under a leaf in a hurry.
replace all the orings you can. they will compress and/or crack and leak fuel into the cyilnders.
the airbox just needs a blowing out with compressed air or soapy water washing.
careful on the reassembly. the vacuum slides and diaphrams need gentle handling. :thumb:
I didn't take the diaphragm cap off :)
i didn't plan ahead and so i have no orings or gaskets :( should have thought of that first.
what's a vacuum slide? is that what the airbox is hooked up to? makes a wooshing sound when lifted up?
i'm contemplating driving over to a local shop and asking them for advice as well since they can see it...
One more thing i noticed is that the pilot mixture screws are set differently. One is off by about half a turn or more...
should those be reset? i have never messed with those before...
When i was cleaning the carbs, I carefully removed the floats. On the left carb, the suspect carb, the float needle seat itself was loose. it actually came right off. So i reseated that needle seat as well. That could potentially be the culprit as well I think.
my thought is that if it's loose, it's circumventing the whole float needle system in place to stop the gas from entering.
A loose float needle seat could easily allow gas to bypass the closed needle. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here... there is a seal around the seat, could be damaged or worn out. I would replace the seats and needles. Please post a nice close pic of the tips of the needles to determine whether to replace said parts or not.
Quote from: anoopb on April 04, 2013, 03:41:43 PM
When i was cleaning the carbs, I carefully removed the floats. On the left carb, the suspect carb, the float needle seat itself was loose. it actually came right off. So i reseated that needle seat as well. That could potentially be the culprit as well I think.
my thought is that if it's loose, it's circumventing the whole float needle system in place to stop the gas from entering.
That can definitely happen. Like I said in my post, that oring comes with the OEM needle valve set part number so if you order new ones you don't have to worry about it. If you have the cash I would order the 2 new needle valve sets from the link I provided at Ronayers along with the float bowl gaskets. You might be out of commission for a week until they arrive, but once you get them in and get the float height set correctly, it will run soooo much better and with less to worry about.
I say just go for the spray carb cleaner. In hindsight, it's what I should've done to mine instead of f%$king around and wasting a bunch of time/money on it. All it takes is an air compressor and a can of carb cleaner. In the end, the shop I took it to (after I gave up trying to clean them myself with other methods) did just that. Sprayed it with carb cleaner and blew it out with an air compressor.
Just take out the important parts. Diaphragms, needles, all the plastic/rubber bits. Everything else should be fine.
You should've seen the carb on a mower I worked on for a buddy of mine. They put mixed gas in it and then let it sit for almost a year. The inside of the carb throat and jets and everything else looked like it had bits of scotch brite pad stuck to it. I basically drenched the thing in the aerosol-type carb cleaner, blew it out, reassembled, and it ran fine. And continues to run fun. Moral? That kind of cleaner -probably- won't hurt anything.
Quote from: bombsquad83 on April 04, 2013, 07:24:41 PM
Quote from: anoopb on April 04, 2013, 03:41:43 PM
When i was cleaning the carbs, I carefully removed the floats. On the left carb, the suspect carb, the float needle seat itself was loose. it actually came right off. So i reseated that needle seat as well. That could potentially be the culprit as well I think.
my thought is that if it's loose, it's circumventing the whole float needle system in place to stop the gas from entering.
That can definitely happen. Like I said in my post, that oring comes with the OEM needle valve set part number so if you order new ones you don't have to worry about it. If you have the cash I would order the 2 new needle valve sets from the link I provided at Ronayers along with the float bowl gaskets. You might be out of commission for a week until they arrive, but once you get them in and get the float height set correctly, it will run soooo much better and with less to worry about.
Yes. I'm definitely going to order those parts. For now, the bike is back in place with everything just cleaned up a bit.
As of right now, there's no gas from the pee pee hose. (Success!)
it starts up without the choke ok and idles fairly steady.
It seems to sound better but that could just be me.
All i did was clean out the float bowls thoroughly, spray air into the carb and all the holes i could find, make sure the floats were fairly smooth, and clean out the main jet. Scraped off any gunk that was built up over time as well.
I used seafoam in the gas as well. Will continue that for another tank.
TODOs for this bike over the next few weeks/months are:
replace the orings, gaskets, float needle and seat. One of the floats is a little bent and that's bothering me so i might replace the floats as well.
Remove the diaphragm cap and do a full on carb clean.
I couldn't get to the pilot jets so I let that one be. I'll be removing and cleaning those out as well.
Replace all the hoses from the gas tank and clean out the gas tank to get rid of any rust in there.
Thanks again to all.
Quote from: oz353 on April 04, 2013, 04:22:30 PM
A loose float needle seat could easily allow gas to bypass the closed needle. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here... there is a seal around the seat, could be damaged or worn out. I would replace the seats and needles. Please post a nice close pic of the tips of the needles to determine whether to replace said parts or not.
Here's a pic. They look ok to me but what do i know. This is the first set of needles i've ever seen :)
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The triangular parts look perfect to me. Those little "buttons" on the other side should be spring loaded though. Sometimes they can get gummed up inside and can cause problems as well.
Quote from: Big Rich on April 05, 2013, 05:33:33 AM
The triangular parts look perfect to me. Those little "buttons" on the other side should be spring loaded though. Sometimes they can get gummed up inside and can cause problems as well.
+1 happened to me if they get gunked up what i did was heat it up with heat gun and once the spring is released soak it in pb blaster or any penetrating oil. Works like a charm now
No need to replace the floats themselves unless they are cracked and allow gas in the buoy parts, or have broken in some other way. That metal tab is supposed to be somewhat bent, because that's how you adjust the float height.
It could just be me...but I'm a little suspicious that you floats or needles valves are still not quite adjusted properly if you bike can start easily without any choke. I think that probably means there is more gas in the bowl than there should be. If you haven't checked the gas level in the bowls with a clear tube from the carb drain, then you should do that. Remember to put the petcock on prime when you check, and turn it back to on when you are done.
Quote from: bombsquad83 on April 05, 2013, 07:31:14 AM
No need to replace the floats themselves unless they are cracked and allow gas in the buoy parts, or have broken in some other way. That metal tab is supposed to be somewhat bent, because that's how you adjust the float height.
It could just be me...but I'm a little suspicious that you floats or needles valves are still not quite adjusted properly if you bike can start easily without any choke. I think that probably means there is more gas in the bowl than there should be. If you haven't checked the gas level in the bowls with a clear tube from the carb drain, then you should do that. Remember to put the petcock on prime when you check, and turn it back to on when you are done.
What I meant to say was that after the bike was warmed up, it started up with ease.
This morning, I started him up and he promptly died. The choke helped out there.
So there is a spring inside the float needle? Is that what I'm reading? I didn't take the float needles apart.
That's ok though. I didn't want to go about changing and mucking with everything because then I don't know what actually fixed the issue.
I could always use more practice taking the carbs off :)
glad to hear you got in running. no more leaks? will it run over 50 now? if so we should go cruise down lake shore drive! :thumb:
There are some tiny springs in the float needle, but you'll never see them - they aren't made to be taken apart. As long as that little button feels spring loaded, it's good.
Quote from: kyled25 on April 05, 2013, 10:23:03 AM
glad to hear you got in running. no more leaks? will it run over 50 now? if so we should go cruise down lake shore drive! :thumb:
Well, I need to cruise a bit to really figure it out. been too cold to stay out for long. Going to try tomorrow in the morning if possible.
also ordered me a k&n lunchbox for it :)
Quote from: anoopb on April 05, 2013, 11:51:58 PM
Well, I need to cruise a bit to really figure it out. been too cold to stay out for long. Going to try tomorrow in the morning if possible.
also ordered me a k&n lunchbox for it :)
Nice, well it's supposed to be a high of 67 today with 60% chance of rain and wind gusts up to 35 mph, so be careful. I'll be out in NW Indiana riding with a few people.