It doesn't happen every time, but sometimes the 20A fuse blows immediately after I shut off the engine. Note: The bike is not stalling. It does not blow while running. It only blows after I intentionally shut off the engine using the switch.
I took the bike (new to me, and my first bike) to a parking lot with a friend yesterday to do some practicing before I take my basic riders course in a couple of weeks. We were there for a couple of hours. No problems with the fuse. Later that night, the new battery was fully charged, so I installed it and ran the bike in neutral, on the side stand for a couple of minutes. As soon as I shut it off, the fuse blew. Installed a new fuse, started the bike again. After I shut it off this time, the fuse did not blow. This was randomly occurring before the battery swap too.
I'm in the process of checking the harness for shorts, but wanted to post this up in case others have some experience/advice on this scenario. Bike is a 93 GS500.
It most likely is a short happening in your right hand control. You might want to replace it.
The headlight and starter wires are in that control. The jarring of the stop switch is possibly causing one of the wires to short to the frame inside the control.
Thanks for the helpful reply!
I'll take a good look at this area (best I can, at least). If I don't find any evidence of wiring issues elsewhere on the bike or find any other symptoms - I'll replace the right hand control as suggested.
The kill switch, starter button, and brake light switch are in the right hand control. The turn signal, horn button and high beam dimmer are on the left. Other than the dimmer the head and other lights are turned on and off by the ignition switch. OP mentions turning engine off using the switch but is that the kill switch or ignition switch?
Anyway, I kill my engine by putting the stand down in 1st gear followed by turning off the ignition switch. Why not kill your engine for a while with the kickstand and then pause to see if it affects the fuse and then turn off the ignition switch to see if that blows it and don't be too quick to replace the right hand switchgear unless you have an extra one laying around.
I was referring to the kill switch, not the ignition switch. BUT - I've been trying to recall the circumstances when the fuse has blown, and I'm thinking that it may be when the kill switch is used while the bike is on the side stand in neutral. There are also times when I use the ignition switch, but since it's a random problem, I wasn't keeping track of these things.
I'll start messing around with the different options like you mentioned and see if I can narrow it down some. Thanks for the advice!
Update - Well, after messing with it some more, the fuse blows almost every time ( 4 out of 6 times) I use the kill switch. Using the ignition switch does not blow the fuse. There were a couple of times that after the fuse had blown, and the ignition was off, I replaced the fuse and the new one blew as soon as I plugged the harness back into the relay. Replaced the fuse again, and the bike started up fine. Otherwise, I have been unable to get the fuse to blow without the bike running.
Twice, the bike did not blow the fuse, but when I started it back up almost immediately after shutting it off it ran horribly and the lights were flickering. After a few seconds of this, the fuse would blow and the bike would die. Not sure if that's related or if it's a different issue altogether.
NOTE: This was all done with the bike on the center stand and only idling for 30 seconds or so before shutting it off.
I've checked the diode, found that the PO has already bypassed the clutch switch, and I temporarily bypassed the sidestand switch and this did not change the situation. I haven't been able to locate any shorts or get the bike to act up by jiggling the harnesses. I disassembled the right hand control, and was unable to find any obvious signs of problems. One thing I forgot to do was shut down the bike by putting the side stand down in gear a few times to see if the fuse would blow.
I have another kill switch on the way. If it doesn't fix it, at least it will take one more component out of the equation.
Replaced then kill switch and thought I was all set at first. Fuse wasn't blowing for the first three cycles, then started blowing again. Now that my Haynes manual arrived, I checked the resistance in the regulator and it didn't match the readings specified in the manual. Also it was erratic when moving the harness to the regulator. So... A regulator/rectifier will be ordered and we'll see what happens.
Goooooooats ... ggggggooooooooaaaaattttttsssssss ...
That's what se7nty7's bike did. Drove him nuts.
Has the bike been lightly crashed on the left side.
If so - you have goats.
Cool.
Buddha.
I haven't seen a bad regulator blow the fuse, but possible if the wiring around it is bad and is occasionally shorting to the frame.
Check all your wiring for bad spots and unusual wear.
Quote from: adidasguy on May 19, 2013, 11:17:34 PM
I haven't seen a bad regulator blow the fuse, but possible if the wiring around it is bad and is occasionally shorting to the frame.
Check all your wiring for bad spots and unusual wear.
To chime in with Addy
Including slightly discoloured points in the harness plugs ... I've got rid of at least 3 separate elec gremlins in the harness plugs.... Usually slightly carbonised pins and receivers at one place in the plug... And the wires off the back of those blackened pins were discoloured right at the crimp too!
Blown fuses ... Right hand side controls .... The yellow plug above the engine on RHS? ... When I bridged a headlight issue out of that plug... I also cable tied it up higher and onto the frame... Away from the engine heat.... I'm convinced engine heat had a lot to do with the original development of the fault I had.... The plug was not in good condition at all.... And from more than just elec fault heat!
I'm seeing continuity through the regulator where there should be none (according to Haynes). That's the main reason I went ahead and sought out another regulator. I'm thinking it may be allowing excessive current to flow through causing the fuse blow. The other continuity checks that were erratic seemed to be coming from where the harness connects to the regulator itself (lightly pulling/wiggling that end of the harness changes readings).
I've seen the term 'goats' several times but didn't know what it was referring to. I did some searching and found some info. I'll take a look at the magnets.
The terminals appear very clean, and I was unable to get readings to change when fiddling with that end of the harness with the multimeter clipped onto the terminals themselves.
Thanks for the info guys. I'll keep plugging away on this.
Magnets are not going to cause the fuse to blow. If wiggling things around the regulator have been making a difference, check all the wiring there.
Wildly fluctuating voltage hints at a minor short that's coming & going as the bike vibrates. If you think it is the regulator, you can disconnect it and start the bike a few times just on the battery. Then, disconnecting it will move wires so where there could be a short may get moved and no longer short.
Carefully examine all the wiring. Un-do the cable ties. Spread out the wires and examine them. also look for any burnt spots on the frame around where the wires were.
I wasn't aware that I could start the bike with the regulator disconnected. I never even thought to try it. I'll certainly do that tonight and report my findings.
The wiring that I'm referring to that is changing the readings is the 1 foot of harness that goes from the regulator to its 2 connectors (while they are unplugged). I was performing the continuity test outlined in the haynes manual.
I have yet to find an issue with the main harness anywhere else on the bike either by visual observation or checking for continuity to ground while messing with the harness. I'm not 100% confident that there are no shorts in the harness, as the PO has clearly done some less-than-professional wiring repairs in the past. I've redone those 'repairs' as I've found them while unwrapping portions of the harness.
The thing that's bugging me the most, is that the fuse only seems to blow when the ignition is shut off. If it were an intermittent short-to-ground in the harness, wouldn't it blow the fuse while the bike is running (when the short occurs), causing the fuse to instantly blow, and the bike to shut itself off? Currently, I'm not riding the bike. The fuses are blowing while it sits in my garage, so while there is some vibration involved from the engine running, it's not much because the bike isn't moving.
Digital volt meters do sampling at intervals and display the result. A rapid fluctuating voltage can make a digital meter show all wonky stuff.
Analog meters you can see the needle wiggling.
Measuring the output voltage of the regulator with the 2 wires disconnected will give a false reading. It has no load so the regulator can't regulate. It does need to be connected to the battery to properly function.
Think of what you do when you turn off the bike. Are you in gear? Is the side stand down? There is a side stand relay that cuts power to the bike if in gear AND side stand is down. Maybe that combination as you turn off the bike is killing the fuse?
Put bike on center stand. Put in gear. Turn bike on (no need to start it). as you raise and lower the side stand you should hear a click of the side stand relay.
I guess another question is exactly when does the fuse blow? The instant you flip the kill switch or shortly after?
Keep in mind the key does disconnect all power from the bike after the fuse and before it goes anywhere else. The kill switch simply turns off the motor. All lights and indicators should still be on. When the fuse blows, all will go dark. So exactly when does the fuse blow?
If you're in the habit of side stand up before turning on bike and bike off before side stand down, maybe on occasion you put the side stand down before turning bike off and that certain combination blows the fuse.
Side stand relay is functioning.
Fuse blows instantly upon shut off.
I put it on the center stand, side stand up, in neutral. Idled bike for 20 seconds and shut off using kill switch. Fuse did not blow. Repeated process, and fuse blew. Replaced fuse.
Repeated process again. Fuse blew. Replaced fuse, disconnected regulator. Repeated process 5 times. Fuse did not blow and bike idled a bit higher\started faster.
I'm thinking the regulator is shot. Question is.. Is it shot due to a charging issue or is it just a faulty component?
Think it would have to be a pretty high over charge to blow the fuse... Far as I know fuses go when there are faults or rapid on/off current spikes .. Like in a short...
You would have to potentially sacrifice another fuse to test the regulator voltage flow ... Start the bike without regulator and check the reading, shut it off and note any fluctuation ....Re-connect it and stick the probes into the back of the reg plug ... Check the reading... Then watch the reading as you shut the bike off to see if there is a big spike? ...
Or just get hold of a new reg and plug it in ... If the problem stops then cool .... If it doesn't, you still have a spare reg!
Quote from: Drastik on May 20, 2013, 07:02:54 AM
I'm seeing continuity through the regulator where there should be none (according to Haynes). That's the main reason I went ahead and sought out another regulator. I'm thinking it may be allowing excessive current to flow through causing the fuse blow. The other continuity checks that were erratic seemed to be coming from where the harness connects to the regulator itself (lightly pulling/wiggling that end of the harness changes readings).
I've seen the term 'goats' several times but didn't know what it was referring to. I did some searching and found some info. I'll take a look at the magnets.
The terminals appear very clean, and I was unable to get readings to change when fiddling with that end of the harness with the multimeter clipped onto the terminals themselves.
Thanks for the info guys. I'll keep plugging away on this.
Dude - what part of "goats" isn't clear to you ?
OK skipping all the jokes.
Your alternator stator is making contact with the rotor. Your drop was on the left side ?
Cool.
Buddha.
Here is the history lesson -
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=54494.msg615328#msg615328
Here is some easy reading on the topic. >:(
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=57051.msg646167#msg646167
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=14715.msg127170#msg127170
I dunno, start checking stator terminals to each other and to ground.
Cool.
Buddha.
The bike is new to me, so I don't know the history. My plan was to get it running and use it as my first bike (taking the MSF course early next month).
Quick summary: He purchased the bike in a not running condition a few months ago, took it to a dealership, they did some carb work but said it had 'other' problems they'd need to diagnose. He is a college student and doesn't have much money or resources to work on it himself, so he sold it to me.
It wasn't running when I purchased it. I was able to get it running, but it ran poorly. It was intermittently dropping spark to the left cylinder and wouldn't rev above idle (idled very poorly). Replacing the ignition pickup and that fixed the spark issue. Now the bike starts and revs well, but blows a fuse upon engine shutdown. I can only assume that this issue was present before, but was not obvious because the bike wasn't ran much.
The PO jump started the bike quite often because he didn't have a charger and the battery was dead (jumped from a non-running car battery). The battery was junk (wouldn't hold a charge after I charged it). I replaced the battery.
That pretty much sums up the brief history that I know of the bike.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=14715.0
Read that - really cool thread from eons ago when we first ran into goats. Complete with starwalt, dgyver, werase and se7nty7 observations. Yea I changed my name to Buddha after Ken called me "Buda" a few times - lame. I know, but it was a recession and that was all I could afford.
Cool.
Buddha. (atleast I spell it correctly :flipoff:)
Thanks for the link. Sounds like I have some more resistance readings to check.
Quote from: The Buddha on May 21, 2013, 06:36:31 AM
Here is the history lesson (on goat's syndrome) -
<list of links>
Cool.
Buddha.
Sure ... leave out
my post with the lovely photos (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=38758.msg437562#msg437562). Out of sight, out of mind, I guess. ;)
Still, I'm having a hard time picturing how
goat's could be the issue here. From
Drastik's original post:
Quote from: Drastik on May 13, 2013, 07:20:18 AM
It doesn't happen every time, but sometimes the 20A fuse blows immediately after I shut off the engine. [...] It does not blow while running. It only blows after I intentionally shut off the engine using the switch.
I [...] ran the bike in neutral, on the side stand for a couple of minutes. As soon as I shut it off, the fuse blew. Installed a new fuse, started the bike again. After I shut it off this time, the fuse did not blow.
If this were truly
goat's the bike couldn't even start, right? :dunno_black:
Hey Kerry - and I just posted random pics - anything you want to post - you always welcome. In fact you are required to do so. No one understands me anyway. They understand you and you got pics too. How can that be topped.
However on the goats - extreme goats - even so it should start, it wont charge the battery. And it will be filling up your motor with shredded metal - yea get to it now Drastik.
But, mild goats it will start and run just blow the fuse @ shut off. I dunno why, but se7nty7's bike did exactly that. Was a pain in the butt to diagnose and even harder to explain to people.
Cool.
Buddha.
Aw, I was just joshin' ya. It's much more important to be present (like you) than to have an aging archive of stuff....
I guess I missed the rundown on se7enty7's scenario. I'll give it a read ... thanks! :thumb:
Interesting that the fuse pops at the exact instance the power is cut. Sets me thinking about the ignition coils, the surge of Back EMF generated when the primary sides becomes isolated and the fields collapse and the effect this surge might have.
Normally its not a problem in a healthy system designed to accommodate it but.......(assuming all the wiring is sound) if there is a weakness or fault in the reg/rect or the ignition module either could momentarily break down as a result of the surge and cause a short internally which may in turn blow the fuse.
The fact you are seeing improvements by substituting the original reg/rect says a lot and suggests it is indeed faulty.
incidentally I recall from many years ago a late 70s XS400 with an identical problem that was cured (after many hours spent head scratching) with a replacement reg`...... despite the original having satisfactory static test figures.
GS regulators are very robust. They would die if you did one of em baja designs stators (where the stuff in 3 X the stator winding so you can run lights on a dirt bike) ... but otherwise you likely wont kill em.
The stator shorting to the rotor is more along the lines of AC spill over into the DC side of the electrical system bypassing the regulator and blowing it. Seriously - I work on electronics all winter and much of summer too. I cant explain it like anyone here would understand.
Crack that left cover open Drastik and put up pics. You are looking for some small spot of likely contact between stator and rotor. Maybe hard to locate especially it swimming in oil. Or not.
Cool.
Buddha.
Here are the pics. No carnage thankfully. No magnets cracked or loose to the touch. Thoughts?
[attachment deleted by admin]
Errr ... I know not about goats.... But .... In an attempt to. Learn something! By talking through what I think and waiting for someone to correct me eh!... The sections of outer round magnet where the brown stuff (epoxy?) is missing.. In other brief skims of goats threads... The epoxy being chipped and missing is always 'the start' ? Of the problem? ... They are magnets yeah? ... So could seem quite stable while nothing moving ... Cos they have 'magneted' themselves onto the case? ... But when the ninja star looking bit spins ... The outer ring magnets could then be encouraged to move and tap/chip/scrape/earth ?? Onto the inner ones ? ... And causing short or at least fluctuation in voltage ... And cause it spins fairly quick ... It causes rapid fluctuation ...and so dies the fuse? ...
I think I think this?!
Drastik - Oooooo you're on awfully thin ice -
There is a few spots on the stator that look a little cooked.
There is also a few spots where the lacquer looks worn (or is that camera glare).
You certainly have more than your fair share of missing lacquer on the rotor. Are you making contact from stator to rotor - that was IMHO what made the fuse blow. Remember a few thousanths when filled with carbon dust and water and mildly acidic oil (remember these are natural combustion products) will conduct electricity without outright contact. That was why that lacquer was there.
I cant tell outright, but that also why you're blowing it once in 2-3-4 times. Not everytime.
Look around it, take off the stator and look, or wiggle the rotor or something and see if got any play.
Cool.
Buddha.
The dark spots on the magnets are camera glare. The dark spots on the top (yellow portion) of the stator are brown markings, not black burn marks. I can't find evidence that any impact has been made with the stator but I didn't check to for play in the rotor housing or stator windings yet. I'll do that tomorrow. I cannot find any play in the magnets of the rotor, or any chunks missing from the magnets themselves. You can't tell in those pics but some of the windings have some marks on the top of the plates that are brown in color (same brown color mentioned earlier. Looks like a marker or something was used. They are not parallel to the rotation and so the fact that they aren't worn off seems like a good sign.
How alarmed should I be about the missing laquer on the magnets? Is this normal wear and tear, or a clear indicator that they'll likely become loose in the future?
You CAN run the bole with the stator disconnected.
Your battery won't charge, but it can rule out or rule in the stator. Then, since the stator connects to the regulator, it could be the regulator. Then again, you can run with the regulator disconnected, too.
Yea Adidas runs his "Bole" with out stator all the time.
So does his cats. :icon_twisted:
Cool.
Buddha.
I put some epoxy on the rotor. Its setting up overnight. I'm hoping the regulator shows up tomorrow or Saturday. I'll put it all back together and see what happens.
What you should have done, and should do is with the bike running splice into the alternator lines and check for resistance to ground.
If any point in the cycle you had a 0, even as a flash (and it will have been a flash) it had a short to ground. OK well, you can do it if it blows fuses after you put it back together.
Cool.
Buddha.
Thanks for the advice. I'll certainly do that if the problems persist, but since I had it all apart already, I figured I'd add the epoxy to the rotor before I button it all back up.
Well, so far so good. Its all back together with the new regulator and its not blowing any fuses while running on the center stand in the garage. Now I just need to take it for a spin and see how it does.
So?.......did the new reg/rect cure the issue?
I *believe* so. I took the bike to a parking lot last weekend and rode it around for an hour or so (prepping for the msf course that i'm taking next weekend). No fuse issues, but I may have a charging issue. Not sure yet.
The battery was low on charge from running the bike in the garage with some electrics disconnected while troubleshooting. I have loaned my battery charger to a neighbor who hasn't brought it back yet, so I was jump starting the bike using a jump box.
The battery is now charged back up (used a battery tender), and at multiple rpm ranges, the battery is seeing 12vdc from the charging system. I'm thinking the charging system is likely just fine, but I wasn't getting the rpms up enough while in the parking lot to recharge the battery. Once I get some real riding done, I'll know for sure.
Sounds golden to me :thumb:
If you start out with a fully pumped up battery, you should get over 13v @ 1500 revs.
It should climb to ~15 @ 5k and plateau off there.
Cool.
Buddha.
Update - Well the saga continues.
First, the good news. I completed the MSF course this past weekend and recived my MC license on Sunday afternoon. I went for a ride with my father for around 100 miles. No issues at all. Bike ran great!
This morning I decided I'd take the bike to work. Had a difficult time starting it, but once it decided to idle on it's own everything seemed fine. I let it warm up for a few minutes while getting my gear on. Sat on the bike, went to take off and it stalled........ fuse blew. dang...........
Replaced the fuse, started it right up and drove to work with no problems. I'll check the charging voltage again this evening and if the reading is still low (Sunday's ride should've fully charged that battery), then I'm likely going to look into replacing the stator.
One thing to look at is the connector on the front brake switch. It is possible that it can short to the frame. Maybe when shutting off the bike you pressed on it different than when riding and it rotates a little and shorts to the frame when the brake is pulled in.
I have seen that with OEM clip ons when the brake is rotated forward: it can short to the clip. I don't know what you have on your bike. Then it still could be the brake wiring shorting somewhere on the front end when handle bars turned fully left.
Also look at wiring around the steering stem.
Thanks for the tip. Bike has vortex clip-ons and dual front headlights from the PO. I'll take a good look in the areas you mentioned.
I drove the bike to the shop, had the state inspection done, then back to work on my lunch break - no problems.
Update - I'm only getting 12.65 VDC of charge at 5K rpm. Checked the resistance in the stator and was receiving anywhere from 1.1 - 1.3 ohms where there should be 0 resistance. Also found that there is continuity to ground through the stator. According to Haynes, none of this is acceptable. I unweaved the stator harness wiring from the frame so that it was clearly not making contact with the bike anywhere (was hoping that it was a short in a wire that could be easily fixed), but I still had continuity to ground. New stator has been ordered :icon_sad:
I did not find any evidence of a short in the brake switch area or steering stem (yet).
Also ordered a new chain (clicking and kinking - even after adjustment), sprockets, and fork seals (one is leaking). Hey, if nothing else - this GS is giving me a good education on motorcycle repair :cool: