Im making a new thread here cuz I dont know where to begin on this one. I was installing the flywheel on my gs500 motor and when i was torquing the flywheel whilst holding the manual crank bolt in place, the small signal rotor bolt/screw snapped. I have no idea how this could happen. It snapped where the screw started to thread. the rest of it is in the engine somewhere. Is this a really brutally big job, could I have damaged the main axle? MY LIFE SUCKS!
The ignition rotor bolt ? its threaded in the crank ? remove the rotor and see if there is enough to grip it and get it out.
Cool.
Buddha.
yes that is what I'll do. I was seriously freaking out because I didn't know how it looked like inside. After seeing some photos I understand that it shouldnt be that difficult. My real concern is how in the hell did it snap. I never touched the screw.
Not to rub salt in the wound, you do not hold the timing rotor when installing the magnet rotor.
You use a 22mm thin wrench on the rotor or you lock the starter gears with a bolt stick in the teeth (not in the book but experience shows that works).
You're going to have to use a screw extractor to get that out. Otherwise, the crank is toast and you are best getting a new engine.
Quote from: adidasguy on May 27, 2013, 07:24:17 PM
Not to rub salt in the wound, you do not hold the timing rotor when installing the magnet rotor.
You use a 22mm thin wrench on the rotor or you lock the starter gears with a bolt stick in the teeth (not in the book but experience shows that works).
You're going to have to use a screw extractor to get that out. Otherwise, the crank is toast and you are best getting a new engine.
I was figuring as much after it snapped. How easy is it to snap the crankshaft? how much torque is required.
more foot pounds than you can put on it with a standard 2ft breaker bar.
You can't break a crankshaft.
the timing rotor bolt on the right side is very small and delicate.
That's why you use a 22mm wrench on the magneto (which the book says to use) OR lock the right side starter gears with a bolt (my method) when you tighten the magneto. Tighten, then hit with an impact wrench for good measure.
Be sure the rotor shaft was spotless. Clean and dry with zero oil. It is a friction compression fit. I roughen up the shaft for better grip as if I was giving it a hand job with 1000 grit sand paper. The inner part of the rotor --- a finger job with 1000 grit. That little bit of roughness makes them lock together.
Any oil on the surface and it WILL come loose again (ask how I know)
I jam a bolt in the starter gear and the pinion (idle graer) from the starter motor to lock it from turning clockwise. Then jam that sucker on and finalize it with the impact wrench.
Quote from: adidasguy on May 27, 2013, 08:35:39 PM
You can't break a crankshaft.
the timing rotor bolt on the right side is very small and delicate.
That's why you use a 22mm wrench on the magneto (which the book says to use) OR lock the right side starter gears with a bolt (my method) when you tighten the magneto. Tighten, then hit with an impact wrench for good measure.
Be sure the rotor shaft was spotless. Clean and dry with zero oil. It is a friction compression fit. I roughen up the shaft for better grip as if I was giving it a hand job with 1000 grit sand paper. The inner part of the rotor --- a finger job with 1000 grit. That little bit of roughness makes them lock together.
Any oil on the surface and it WILL come loose again (ask how I know)
I jam a bolt in the starter gear and the pinion (idle graer) from the starter motor to lock it from turning clockwise. Then jam that sucker on and finalize it with the impact wrench.
Thank you for the in depth reply. I feel like I shouldn't have a problem removing the broken screw from the camshaft. I have a spare engine that I can take the screw from when I take out the old one. I believe less than an inch is stuck in the camshaft. As long as thats the worst damage im looking at I'm not worrying. This was a very rookie mistake due to my impatience and inexperience and the anger of not being able to ride during such nice weather. thank you
We all make mistakes - including me.
We work past them and learn from what we did.
You should be able to remove the bolt. It is MUCH softer than the super hard crank shaft.
Take care in removing the remaining part of the bolt. Watch out for the alignment pin for the timing rotor.
I'm out of town so I can't take pix of anything otherwise I would show how I do it.
Quote from: Funderb on May 27, 2013, 07:50:24 PM
more foot pounds than you can put on it with a standard 2ft breaker bar.
Hahaha much more :)
Quote from: adidasguy on May 27, 2013, 09:07:08 PM
We all make mistakes - including me.
We work past them and learn from what we did.
You should be able to remove the bolt. It is MUCH softer than the super hard crank shaft.
Take care in removing the remaining part of the bolt. Watch out for the alignment pin for the timing rotor.
I'm out of town so I can't take pix of anything otherwise I would show how I do it.
If the alignment pin were to fall into the engine do you think putting oil through the engine then draining it would take it out? I have a feeling it may of fallen in. I thought it was the broken piece but thats not possible.
Quote from: jacob92icu on May 27, 2013, 09:08:48 PM
Quote from: Funderb on May 27, 2013, 07:50:24 PM
more foot pounds than you can put on it with a standard 2ft breaker bar.
Hahaha much more :)
Yes id hope so...:)
the rotor alignment pin is on the right outside here the timing rotor is. The small pin that aligns the timing rotor. It can't fall in unless you are in zero gravity.
My guess is he put a wrench on the timing rotor (right side) to keep the crank from turning while tightening the magneto/rotor (left side). The force on the magneto snapped the timing rotor bolt.
Correct?
Someone save me this week I am in Newark. Need bikers to talk to in person or SEE bikes (Who has the GS500F I saw tonight at 7:12pm on Market Street by Penn Station?)
Quote from: adidasguy on May 27, 2013, 08:35:39 PM
I roughen up the shaft for better grip as I was giving a hand job with 1000 grit sand paper. Then jam that sucker on and finalize it with the impact wrench.
ummmm .. :icon_eek: ... no.. forget it.... i dont want to know... :icon_rolleyes: :flipoff:
Quote from: adidasguy on May 27, 2013, 09:23:23 PM
the rotor alignment pin is on the right outside here the timing rotor is. The small pin that aligns the timing rotor. It can't fall in unless you are in zero gravity.
My guess is he put a wrench on the timing rotor (right side) to keep the crank from turning while tightening the magneto/rotor (left side). The force on the magneto snapped the timing rotor bolt.
Correct?
Someone save me this week I am in Newark. Need bikers to talk to in person or SEE bikes (Who has the GS500F I saw tonight at 7:12pm on Market Street by Penn Station?)
close..I was holding on the 19mm bolt (right side) while tightening the magneto rotor bolt(left side), when the timing rotor (10mm) bolt snapped. Not sure how this happened.
That's what I was saying - just slightly different words.
So extract that bolt and do all the magneto tightening from LEFT side only. Electric impact wrench will do wonders AND do what I said to do to the shaft and inner mating part of the rotor. In and Out only - never round and round. Scoring must be in and out, not round and round.
I'll make a video as the magneto/rotor came loose on Suzi a few days ago.
Quote from: adidasguy on May 27, 2013, 10:26:22 PM
That's what I was saying - just slightly different words.
So extract that bolt and do all the magneto tightening from LEFT side only. Electric impact wrench will do wonders AND do what I said to do to the shaft and inner mating part of the rotor. In and Out only - never round and round. Scoring must be in and out, not round and round.
I'll make a video as the magneto/rotor came loose on Suzi a few days ago.
Thanks adidiasguy. Im punching myself because i actually used an impact wrench and it stayed on. But i was worried I over torqued it.
I'm unable to slide the signal rotor out despite the screw being snapped. is there a better way to go about removing the signal rotor?
I took of the rotor and I'm about to cry. there's a notch at the end if the camshaft that has been destroyed and is not embedded inside the end of the shaft. the screw is accessible and could be removed with a screw extractor. does anyone know what notch I'm talking about?
The notch has dug into the end if the camshaft. Can this piece be possibly replaced. maybe by machining it? I have an.old engine with the signal rotor intact with the screw not snapped
The crank is also intact and the notch is fine.
Please.can anyone give me good.news?
Pictures PLEASE!
Quote from: adidasguy on May 27, 2013, 08:35:39 PM
I roughen up the shaft for better grip as if I was giving it a hand job with 1000 grit sand paper. The inner part of the rotor --- a finger job with 1000 grit. That little bit of roughness makes them lock together.
:dunno_black: :dunno_black: :dunno_black:
Just about the worse thing you can do.
Roughing up the surface of the taper will create high spots and reduce the amount of grip. Tapers need to be lapped together to obtain maximum contact and grip.
Probably why you were complaining about one coming loose a week or so ago.
See this vid for the technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bezP0s0NtLc
Do it this way, get a minimum of 75-80% surface contact between the parts, check the retaining bolt hasn't stretched, torque it up to manufacturers spec and it will never come loose :thumb:
I cannot get it at this time. will post in the evening..how long is that pin supposed to be. does it slide into the crank? if not it looks like I was punched into crank.
How about a pic?
I'm having a hard time figuring out how this happened. Did you use an impact wrench on the magnet rotor bolt while holding the 19mm wrench on the signal rotor?
yes paulcet. yes I did. :( I asked my friend to slap me in the face a few days ago.
http://s1253.photobucket.com/user/junk301/media/IMG_20130530_205730.jpg.html?evt=email_share
Sorry guys my phone is cranky. Won't let.me copy paste the image link for.blogs.. as.you can see its been chewed up a bit. I've been recommended by a member to reface the end then drill a hole and fit.it.with a.new pin. Thanks for the continued support!
You'll need someone skilled ar screw extraction. Get it out and you're OK.
The fact that the index pin is munched is not that big of a deal. It indexes the timing rotor so it is in the right place. It doesn't really hold anything. You should be able to glue it back in.
IMPORTANT: The surface of the shaft is munched. It MUST be absolutely flat so the rotor sits squarely there. NOTHING STICKING UP! grind any raised parts off.
I guess the underside of the rotor that sits on the shaft is all munched up, too. Get a replacement rotor. They are cheap.
It is important that the rotor turn as true as possible. Some thread lock in the flat surface when you re-install a new one will help insure it stays in place. Also thread lock on the bolt and do not over torque it.
The rotor only spins and does not touch anything. Not necessary to be bad-ass tight. Just tight so it doesn't come off.
that is the best news I've gotten all week. I already have a spare rotor and screw. going to visit a few machine shops today and show them a photo. if they sound confident I will bring it to them. one more thing. about the pin, is it where its supposed to be. it almost seems to me like it moved.. probably not but is that possible?
Pin goes in a hole. Hole was elongated. It can stoll go back right and get job welded in place. Others have done that with success.
I don't have a spare pin. well I do but its on my other crank..I'm not sure if I can take it out. will it cause any issues if I makeshift a pin?
thanks adidasguy. I'd buy you a few beers but o don't know where you are.
Remove the ignition plate before you start doing anything, the oil pressure sender as well.
Then lay the bike on the left onto a few car tires and left drill it. I doubt it in there with much tension on it. You may be helped by heating the crank with a hot air blower, cos that thing probably has loctite. And yes you need to get that locator pin placed there and welded as well.
Cool.
Buddha.
An update on my snapped screw situation. I dropped the bike at a machine shop that I was recommended to and they have done the following.:
1) They removed the snapped screw
2)They couldn't get the old pin out because it was dug into too deep, so they drilled a new hole 180 degrees in relation to the old pin.
3) They created another opening/window 180 degrees of the existing one on the advancer so that the timing advancer will stay in the exact same position
Does anybody think there will be a problem with this?
Cheers!!
Its a good fix :thumb:........assuming they have got those holes drilled at exactly 180deg to the originals.
yup. looks good. It's turning true. I haven't mentioned this before but once I used the impact wrench on the flywheel to get it on the first time, it's been hard to hand crank the engine. I'm hoping that this is only due to no oil on those gears (as i turn the crank I can hear the gears turning)? Could snapping the screw of loosened something in the engine(timing chain or what not?). I can turn it by hand but its a lot more difficult than before.
I think you need some oil in there. The engine is not meant to go many turns without oil.
(see my latest video - I hit the rotor with an impact wrench for good measure, too.)
ohh where can I find your videos Adidasguy? yeah I feel like its a lack of oil.
Quote from: junk301 on June 05, 2013, 01:30:21 PM
ohh where can I find your videos Adidasguy? yeah I feel like its a lack of oil.
All are at http://www.youtube.com/lajko1
Today's new video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxS5yZ44AHU
perfect! great video. Only one issue I'm having. Since the flywheel was already torqued to spec before, i feel that I may of over torqued it with the impact wrench. Can I loosen the flywheel without using a flywheel puller? I set the torque wrench at 90 ft/lbs and its only clicking.
I would leave it. If it was way overtorqued, loosening it now won't help. The damage is done, if any. I would button it up and try it.
Even if I can loosen it with a flywheel puller? Ok ill close her up and start her up. I don't think it was overtorqued that much.
I hit it with an impact wrench just for good measure as I had one come loose 2 weeks after installing to torque spec. Though that was the first one I did. I didn't clean the surfaces properly so there was oil in there. Now I also score the surface a little with 400 to 800 grit sand paper. Just enough so the surface is not polished as when spinning loose, it polished the surface very smooth in a circular way.
I don't recall the impact wrench turning the bolt at all. I think the impact wrench has less torque that 130 nm. Its the hitting of the impacts that maybe insure everything is tight.
Leave it. If over torqued, no reason to take it off. That is such hard steel you can't damage it without lots and lots of work.
SOUNDS GREATTT! At what spec does the stator cover bolts need to be torqued to? I realize you mentioned that in the video.
I forget the cover bolt spec. It is not that much. Those small cover bolts into aluminum can't hake much before they strip out.
I only remember the rotor bolt 110-130 nm.
I installed the flywheel. put oil in her. ( this is a drained engine that has been empty for 2-3 weeks now). I hit the ignition but it sounds really odd. I could smell burnt fuel. the bike started to crank but wouldn't go all the way.
Oh, dear....
it does seem like something is spinning. maybe the flywheel isn't on properly. I'm not sure
too add my throttle is extremely tight, would this stop the bike from starting? the burnt fuel would mean that the flywheel is working, correct? I'm just assuming its having trouble starting since it was sitting without oil for so long. I will post a video on how it sounds.
Quote from: junk301 on June 06, 2013, 06:34:07 PM
I installed the flywheel. put oil in her. ( this is a drained engine that has been empty for 2-3 weeks now). I hit the ignition but it sounds really odd. I could smell burnt fuel. the bike started to crank but wouldn't go all the way.
Watch my new video on installing it. maybe it is not on tight?
Fixed Suzi's loose starter/generator rotor and made a new video of the repair.
Direct link: http://youtu.be/GxS5yZ44AHU
And to my channel with all the videos: http://www.youtube.com/lajko1
I followed hour video. the bike is cranking but its not catching. I don't want to drain the oil just yet. I will upload a video tomorrow on the sound its making.
You can remove the right side timing rotor cover (no oil is under it) and see if the crank shaft is turning when you hit the starter.
Yeah it was turning with the starter. I will post a video tomorrow. thats when ill be working on my bike. When I did try starting it I did hear the exhaust pop once or twice. Is there any way the timing rotor could be the issue?
Quote from: junk301 on June 07, 2013, 04:35:01 PMIs there any way the timing rotor could be the issue?
Yes..... see my earlier comment.
Those new holes in the crank and the rotor need to be precisely, that's........ PRECISELY!!! 180deg from the originals.
The rotor only has to be a degree out of sync with the crank to effect timing.
You need to check the timing marks before you go any further.
The procedure for timing F`s has been covered many times, here is just one of them....
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=58952.0
thanks sledge, I will open up the valve cover and check. however would the exhaust even pop if the timing is off?
http://youtu.be/pvO2Zk14d74
Whatever it is, it doesnt sound good at all. The throttle cable is completely stuck even after loosening it by the kill switch box and at the carbs. Compression is fine in both cylinders, the spark plus are firing.
im going to inspect the flywheel. I feel like the gears aren't meshing properly
Sounds to me like the generator rotor is loose. It catches a little and turns the engine, but not a really tight fit. It is slipping and catching as if there is now some rough scoring on the crank shaft allowing it to occasionally catch and turn the engine, while still slipping a lot.
yes that was my feeling. do you think any damage could of been caused. and when opening up that side do I need to drain the oil or can I just tilt the bike to the right
Drain the oil into a clean container to re-use it.
if it was loose. would I need to pull the flywheel then reinstall?
Absolutely. You can't tighten it down because now there is oil in it on the mating surfaces of the shaft. It must be clean. I score the mating surfaces with sand paper to aid in a tight press fit. (Give the crank a hand job with 800 grit paper).
Check the shaft and rotor for scoring and circular ridges and bumps. You have to remove those. The surfaces are a friction press fit. Perfect fit is important.
Ok something has just come to my attention. I'm going to check under the cover tomorrow but i'm hoping this is the issue. That little idle gear that connects the flywheel to the starter gear fell out before I was about to install the cover. So i had to jimmy it back in there before i fit on the cover. I'm thinking that I messed up the installation.
There is the pin that the idle gear goes on. Good call if that's all it is.
well the pin was in there, but maybe it shifted slightly, i will check. thanks for your continued responses.
With the cover off again, you can hit the starter button for a second and see if things are turning. A second without oil will be OK as long as the engine doesn't start up on you (pull the plug wires?).
I took off the cover again and I couldn't find that anything was really amiss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0rJJ9cYzR8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I'm bringing the bike to someone since I don't have a flywheel puller.
Sounds like air noise from the exhaust. The whining doesn't seem fast enough for the flywheel to be slipping.
Did you remove the left cover again? I wonder if something is wrong there, like the flywheel rubbing on the stator.
I really wouldnt have the faintest idea. Yes i removed the cover again. Everything seemed in order, stator wire was neatly placed. I'm bringing it to a trustworthy mechanic for a diagnosis. He is going to pick it up tomorrow or thursday and hopefully he could get to the bottom of it. Does the noise its making sound at all like an engine issue(the internals). I checked compression and thats good. The plugs are also good. Timing is one of my worries.
If you had compression tested, then it is cranking.
Do you have any spark?
Maybe ignition problem?
ummm .. that sounded odd... but i have never heard a bike trying to start without actually firing like that...
ummm... its not turning over backwards is it? ... i dont know if thats even possible with a bike motor... but i do know that very rarely a diesel will just decide to crank backwards if there is a dodgy starter issue... :dunno_black: ... ive only ever actually seen it twice in farm machinery over 30 years of being around diesels in general ..
is it possible to hook the wires to the starter bass-ackwards so it would spin wrong way?.... :dunno_black:
just my radical way out of left field idea eh :cookoo:
Starter has one wire. Frame is ground. Can't hood a starter up backwards. With the starter clutch, you can't start it backwards.
I almost think no spark.
Then we don't know everything that was done. What if the main gear was not driving the transmission? If you get it into gear, will turning the wheel turn the motor? (try for a high gear)
Or will the wheel turn if you override the safety switches and blip the starter for 1/2 a second?
one issue I felt is occasionally when the bike was in gear I couldn't roll it around with the clutch engaged. something is very wrong with this.
I thought the exact same thing janx. running backwards that is.
u also felt that when trying to start it in gear. the bike would push forward slightly. just remembering this all now
It been several hours since I listened to the vid at work with good speakers... iPad won't cut it.... It just sounded weird... Like the whirring chug chug ponk chug chug (my version of starter noises) ... Was in wrong sequence?
Addy knows heaps more about it all of course... It's unlikely it would turn over backwards....
And not trying to be a pain .. But when you do turn a bike over normally ... Does the exhaust give a puff puff OUTwards of air before it fires? ... Cos logic follows then that the airflow would be sucking rather than puffing....
I don't know if the starter tip 'gear' could/can come off and be put on backwards? ...
Sorry... Just working the idea over out loud... Right or wrong... I like to extrapolate oddball theories till I get shushed ;)
I feel like the timing is the problem.earlier in the thread I mentioned that the machine shop installed a new timing pin 180 degrees from the existing and drilled a new window 180 degrees from the origin in the advanced. I feel that they may of installed it backwards. could this make sense and how much damage would it of caused I'd I tried starting the bike this way. fyi I havent tried starting the bike for more than 20seconds since o heard the squeeling.
Quote from: sledge on June 08, 2013, 03:01:05 AM
Quote from: junk301 on June 07, 2013, 04:35:01 PMIs there any way the timing rotor could be the issue?
Yes..... see my earlier comment.
Those new holes in the crank and the rotor need to be precisely, that's........ PRECISELY!!! 180deg from the originals.
The rotor only has to be a degree out of sync with the crank to effect timing.
You need to check the timing marks before you go any further.
The procedure for timing F`s has been covered many times, here is just one of them....
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=58952.0
So..........You said you were going to check the timing have you done it yet?
You can see the starter parts in my latest video.
The starter motor turns a spur gear, which has a pinion attached to it. That pinion turns the big gear on the starter clutch.
There is a solid steel pin the intermediate gears go on. That pin also goes into the side cover. Hardly possible for any of that to go wrong due to the fit. anything wrong and the side cover will not go on.
Now, if the starter gear was removed from the magnet rotor, the bits for the starter clutch could have fallen out. There are 3 of them. If 1 or 2 fell out, you would get the engine to turn over but probably it would slip a little.
to sledge ....no I forgot to. this just came to my attention whilst at work. at adidasguy..I don't think they came out. one did but I put it back in with the spring.
K my mind is everywhere right now.however in one of my local forums someone has brought something to my attention. in my most recent video as I'm holding down the starter, I let go of it and the bike continues to crank. is it possible for the starter motor to be permanently engaged? could the squeeling be caused by the starter motor trying to turn that crank while it is already spinning?
Due to the starter clutch, you can hit the starter with the bike running. Nothing really happens. The starter does spin, but since the crank is already turning, you don't hear anything except maybe a little of the starter motor turning. Probably won't notice anything because the starter motor by itself is really quiet unless it is worn out.
If starter motor were permanently running, it would happen as soon as you turn on the key.
There is no "starter solenoid" as in cars. We have the clutch where the starter gear mates with the magnet rotor. Only other thing is a starter relay. That's there only because the starter required a lot of power and the switch in the handlebars isn't hefty enough for that amount of power (just look at the size of the wire going to the starter motor).
Does this look and sound like a functioning flywheel and starter? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSrNCO3nw1M
Looks ok to me........checked the timing yet?
Looks good to me, too.
Time to look seriously at the electricals.
Starter fluid sprayed into the airbox to worry about fuel issues later. Once you get her to spark a few seconds, you know electricals are OK.
So what does the other side look like, where you had the work done?
ok so other side looks fine. no irregularities there. To sledges question, no not yet. I want to wait till it gets diagnosed before having to pull apart the top(bike isn't available at home) its in storage far away and I haven't seen it in a week). Mechanic is picking it up tomorrow evening. These posts have gotten my attention. It could be a fuel pump issue. The engine was starved for almost a month so maybe i havent warmed it up enough (total 20 seconds). I searched engine squeeling and motorcycle, and fuel pump has come up most of the time. The new engine was swapped in, so maybe the mechanic mesed up the fuel pump installation.
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336338
I know its a gsxr forum but its generally all the same, no?