So I finally got my gs500 started and idling(idk at what rpm though as I didn't have the tach hooked up), but I have a new problem. After I start it it idles fine for maybe 45 seconds and then just dies. I know that fuel is flowing from the tank(I have tygon lines so I can see it) and the carbs were just cleaned(maybe thats actually where the problem is coming from). It doesn't do anything strange or anything before dying it just idles steadily then dies. If anyone knows what this could be I would appreciate the help.
Thanks!
It sounded ok in that video.. was it warmed up before you made that video? Or was that a completely cold start?
You are 1000% positive you have the fuel hoses routed correctly?
(http://www.gs500.net/gallery/data/500/GS500fuelcocks.jpg)
That vacuum line goes to the top vent on the left carb.
The "to carbs" hose goes to the BOTTOM T on the carbs.
It is routed exactly like that except the vacum hose is going to the right carb(if you are looking forwards while sitting on the bike). Idk if thats an issue, its just the way it was when i got it. I could probably switch it pretty easily. One possibility is I may not have had enough gas in it(I saw fuel flow when turned to prime, but maybe that opens up the reserve as well?). Once I source a filter or buy a whole new tank petcock I'll fill the tank like halfway and try again. But it would run again for about the same amount of time if I started it again(it did take a bit to start again though) so it doesn't seem like that was the problem.
And ya in that video it seemed to be working fine other than probably the wrong idle speed and maybe just a little rough. It had ran for like 30 seconds within the last 5 minutes before that video.
At least on the earlier carbs, the vacuum port is on the left, the right is plugged. Unless your carbs have been switched, you have no vacuum at the petcock, thus no fuel in the 'ON' position, and a big vacuum leak. If you turned it to PRIME, then back to ON, you could have enough fuel in the float bowls to start the bike and run it for maybe 30 seconds, and the idle would be goofy due to the vacuum leak.
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 23, 2013, 08:48:03 PM
One possibility is I may not have had enough gas in it(I saw fuel flow when turned to prime, but maybe that opens up the reserve as well?).
Prime does draw from the reserve position in the tank.
- Bboy
Quote from: BockinBboy on July 24, 2013, 06:22:27 AM
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 23, 2013, 08:48:03 PM
One possibility is I may not have had enough gas in it(I saw fuel flow when turned to prime, but maybe that opens up the reserve as well?).
Prime does draw from the reserve position in the tank.
- Bboy
So even though it doesn't seem to me that it makes a difference I should set up the vacuum ports "correctly" just to eliminate it as an issue. It should be easy enough so ill do that. I just have to figure out how to route a hose into there.( the right side vacuum port is much more accessible)
Is this the right side vacuum port?(where there is a little yellow vacuum cap circled in the pic)
(http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r780/cmat1120/IMG_20130704_122549_zps9477f6de.png)
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 24, 2013, 08:23:32 AMIs this the right side vacuum port?(where there is a little yellow vacuum cap circled in the pic)
Yes, if by "right" you mean "correct". (Using standard terminology, that is the
left-side vacuum port. :embarrassed:)
Ya sorry about that I meant left but said right :dunno_black:, so that's the side that I should attach the vacuum hose from the petcock to?
Also it seems to be running very rich. Plugs are black and it seems to almost run better with the air filter taken out(which was pretty dirty). Is there a way to adjust the mixture without taking the carbs out?
Also here is a video of it. I don't really know what I'm doing in it to be honest, but maybe some of you more experienced guys can notice something in it. Please ask me questions or give me suggestions.
It looks like the bike starts right up when you turn it to prime, then dies shortly after you turn it back to on. That "vacuum port" on the right side carb isn't a vacuum port. It's not drilled through, there's no hole there. If you pull the vacuum hose off, you can see that it is plugged, it goes nowhere.
If you keep the bike on prime, does it keep running?
Running rich can possibly be attributed to floats being a little too high. Check the heights with a clear tube, make sure the gas stays level with the float bowl gasket, and not a millimeter higher.
Heres my suggestion. Plug the right (literally) carb nipple. They sell plugs at the auto store its $3 for a mix lot. Get the tightest one you can out of the package over the nipple and use that.
Then hook the hose up to the left carb as its supposed to be. That will allow the vacuum to pull the fuel.
Something else is you can actually feel a pulse through the gas lines while its running if you put your finger on the lines while the petcock is switched to that line. The other line wont ahve this pulse, move the petcock to reserve and now the reserve line will have the pulse.
My understanding is that pulse is the vacuum.
its likely the right carb is not giving you any vacuum and now the left carb nipple is causing a vacuum leak.
Let us know.
I did switch them and the results are basically the same. The vacuum hose is on the left and the cap is on the right. Maybe there is something else wrong with the vacuum? It definitely seems like the vacuum not pulling fuel is my problem. Other than running too rich which I believe is a separate issue.
Also when I pull the vacuum hose off of the carb it's a little wet with I'm guessing fuel...is that normal?
It sounds like this thread may be a follow-up to another. My apologies if I repeat anything....
A dirty air filter and black plugs certainly do go together. See the [Haynes Spark Plug Chart (http://bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_SparkPlugChart.jpg)].
Have you already checked the carburetor float heights? (See my [Float Height Check on a Suzuki GS500E (http://bbburma.net/FloatHeight.htm)] page.) Even though fuel is flowing from the tank, it may not be flowing at an acceptable rate. You were able to start the bike multiple times in the video, so I'm guessing that the fuel flow rate could be too low, but probably not too high. With a long enough "float height check hose" you might even be able to monitor the float height while the bike is running.
I couldn't tell for sure which fuel selector switch positions you were switching between in the video. ON? RES? PRI? I would suggest leaving it on PRI until the bike runs well, and THEN tackling any vacuum issues related to the ON and RES positions.
The spark plug isn't nearly as black as that carbon fouling picture, but it is a little blacker than normal. I'm going to go try that float check right now... Ill edit this with the results when I get back.
So my drain doesn't extend at all... its pretty much flush... I don't have a way of attaching any hose
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 24, 2013, 02:46:25 PMAlso when I pull the vacuum hose off of the carb it's a little wet with I'm guessing fuel...is that normal?
Well that's a problem in and of itself. Fuel in the vacuum line could very well be a sign of a torn petcock diaphragm, and if such will cause the bike to run rich when in prime. That actually happened to me, the vacuum line was pulling fuel through the diaphragm. Definitely a mess.
Quote from: RossLH on July 24, 2013, 02:39:00 PM
It looks like the bike starts right up when you turn it to prime, then dies shortly after you turn it back to on. That "vacuum port" on the right side carb isn't a vacuum port. It's not drilled through, there's no hole there. If you pull the vacuum hose off, you can see that it is plugged, it goes nowhere.
If you keep the bike on prime, does it keep running?
Running rich can possibly be attributed to floats being a little too high. Check the heights with a clear tube, make sure the gas stays level with the float bowl gasket, and not a millimeter higher.
Sorry I didn't see your reply till now. So that's not a vacuum port meaning my hose is in the wrong place? or there just is no "port"? And I haven't really checked yet to see if it will just keep running on prime, I could try though. And I wish I could check the float height, but like I said there's nothing to attach a hose to on my carbs for some reason.
Ill go try running it on prime now.
So now it just won't start. I tried putting the choke on and putting it on prime and nothing's working. I'm using my car's battery so I'm able to crank it quite a bit, but still nothing.
Also is it normal to be able to start the bike with the kickstand down and the clutch lever out?(The bike is in neutral of course)
Is it possible my floats are set incorrectly and are flooding the engine or something?(Basically is it worth taking out the airbox and carbs to check?) Now I just want to get the bike started so I can test if it runs on prime. I'm thinking im going to just get a new petcock or switch to a manual one anyways if that works.
Here's a video of where I'm stuck right now:
Things I've tested:
Fuel is flowing at least into the float bowls(at least when I set it to prime)
I've moved the idle screw all over the place to no avail
My sparkplugs are sparking fine
My car's battery(what mi using for the bike to test) is fully charged
Air is being sucked through the airbox(filter is off cause its so dirty and I appear to be running rich anyways)
So I seem to have fuel, air and spark... so I can't figure out what I'm missing. Only thing that makes sense to me is maybe too much fuel, but I don't know how to fix that.
Also I do feel a pulse on the fuel line when its cranking if that means anything...
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 24, 2013, 03:07:39 PMSorry I didn't see your reply till now. So that's not a vacuum port meaning my hose is in the wrong place? or there just is no "port"? And I haven't really checked yet to see if it will just keep running on prime, I could try though. And I wish I could check the float height, but like I said there's nothing to attach a hose to on my carbs for some reason.
I'm saying normally there is no port there. At a glance, the carbs look the same, but only the left vacuum port is drilled through from the factory. There is no hole in the right carb.
On top of that, it sounds like you might have a bad petcock, judging by the fuel in the vacuum line. At this point, here's what I'd do: first, check the float heights with a clear tube while the carbs are still on the bike. If those check out, good. If not, pull the carbs, clean them out real good, and adjust the floats as needed. Check the vacuum ports on each carb, make sure you don't for some reason have both of them drilled out. Remove the petcock and check for tears--I'd just suck on the vacuum hose and see if you can pull any air through. It doesn't take much vacuum at all to operate the diaphragm, you can easily do that with your lungs. If air continues to come through, the diaphragm is torn.
So....summary:
1. Check floats. If they're good, skip to step 3.
2. Remove carbs, clean carbs, adjust floats.
3. Check vacuum ports on either carb, make sure nothing is out of the ordinary. The left carb should be drilled through, the right carb should not.
4. Remove petcock and check for tears.
Stop trying to crank your bike. That's not helping.
Thank you for the help! Just one question: how might I check floats without having that drainage nipple on the bottom of my carbs?(It's just flat with a hole) Should I just measure the distance like it says herehttp://cgi.stanford.edu/~sanjayd/gs500/Maintenance/FloatHeight (http://cgi.stanford.edu/~sanjayd/gs500/Maintenance/FloatHeight)? I don't have calipers, but I might have a ruler with mm on it.
Also I apologize for any ignorance I might display lol. This is the first bike I've ever had or worked on so I am very new to just about everything here.
And you were completely right. I took apart my petcock(just 4 screws) and the diaphragm was very torn.
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 24, 2013, 06:46:59 PMShould I just measure the distance like it says here http://cgi.stanford.edu/~sanjayd/gs500/Maintenance/FloatHeight (http://cgi.stanford.edu/~sanjayd/gs500/Maintenance/FloatHeight)? I don't have calipers, but I might have a ruler with mm on it.
That's how I have always done it. In fact, I just did it the other day to help out a GS rider who brought his carbs down from Salt Lake City. In the inverted position, his floats had no "float" at all. By repeatedly bending the metal tab/tang and measuring from the side with a ruler (right at the point where the tang touched the tiny "plunger" on the end of the needle and stopped swinging) we got them up to about 14.2 mm each. We "bench tested" the float heights with a clear tube, but I guess you'll have to skip that step. He took the carbs home, installed them, and was able to start and ride his bike.
Good Luck with the procedure!
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 24, 2013, 06:46:59 PMAlso I apologize for any ignorance I might display lol. This is the first bike I've ever had or worked on so I am very new to just about everything here.
No worries. All of us have either "been there" or we're
going to be. Keep on keepin' on! :thumb:
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 24, 2013, 06:46:59 PM
Also I apologize for any ignorance I might display lol. This is the first bike I've ever had or worked on so I am very new to just about everything here.
And you were completely right. I took apart my petcock(just 4 screws) and the diaphragm was very torn.
Yeah man I havent been here long but I have seen enough new users come along start to tear things apart and just disappear.. my guess is its bungled mess and or they gave up or sold the bike.
Your making good progress, and it sounds like you want it correct.. which in my book is the way to do it. Some I know say if it runs just ride it, but I prefer to have it run correctly.
So both bowls have the drain knocked off them? Odd.
So I just checked one and if I did it correctly it was 1.27 mm(.05 inches since im using inches her because I have no calipers) low. I bent the tab so that it was exactly .55 inches(which is about 14mm) since aren't the earlier gs's supposed to be less than 14.6? Never mind about that i re-read the information. So I'm within about half a mm of the recommended settings which should be close enough I think.
Heres a picture of where I'm measuring it looked like thats what the picture was referencing, but I could be very wrong... feel free to tell me why it's wrong and how to do it correctly :D
(http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r780/cmat1120/IMG_20130724_191500_zps8e53d87a.jpg)
My mixture screws were also only like 1.5-2 turns out so I turned them out to 2.5. Should this adjustment make the bike leaner or richer?
Also if I put a vacuum cap on the petcock and the carbs, can I still run the bike with the PRI setting? and then turn it to ON when I stop running/riding it?
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 24, 2013, 06:46:59 PM
Thank you for the help! Just one question: how might I check floats without having that drainage nipple on the bottom of my carbs?(It's just flat with a hole) Should I just measure the distance like it says herehttp://cgi.stanford.edu/~sanjayd/gs500/Maintenance/FloatHeight (http://cgi.stanford.edu/~sanjayd/gs500/Maintenance/FloatHeight)?
Ah, I didn't realize your float bowls didn't have drainage nipples on them. Sorry if you've already mentioned that, I might have skimmed over it. You'll have to do it the old fashioned way, which by the looks of it you've got the hang of.
As for running the petcock with no vacuum line, you can do it, but I'd recommend getting a new petcock sooner than later. First off, you have to keep a close eye on your mileage, as you will no longer have a fuel reserve--prime is fed by the reserve line. Also, you'll have to cap off the vacuum nipple on the petcock, otherwise fuel will go through the diaphragm and leak out. It's kind of a half-assed fix, but it will work for long enough to order a new petcock.
I was thinking about following a tutorial another member posted on here about replacing the petcock with a manual one. It would be cheaper and I don't have to worry about a broken diaphragm. To be honest I do like the vacuum feature though(not having to turn it off every time I finish riding). The only issue I have is I have no idea if the diaphragm in one I buy will be ok and I don't really have the money to buy multiple petcocks.
I might look into fixing the diaphragm on my petcock actually. I've got a whole lot more time than money(summer vacation) so I'd rather do that. :D
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 24, 2013, 08:28:43 PMThe only issue I have is I have no idea if the diaphragm in one I buy will be ok and I don't really have the money to buy multiple petcocks.
If you buy new and it arrives defective, send it back and get a working one. I'm not sure I get your logic there.
Sorry I didn't mention that I would probably buy a used one. A new one is $87 +shipping(at least where I found it). I'd rather just give up the vacuum system then pay that much. It might be me being cheap, but I'm a high-school student and don't have a whole lot of cash to spare. I understand that theres an inherent risk in buying used, but that's my choice. :dunno_black:
Isn't it just a gasket? I mean would a universal gasket work in that area?
Also contact say Adidasguy he probably has one he could sell you.
It's like a rubber circle with a smaller plastic circle on it. I'll post pics of it tomorrow. I'll send him a message once I have more money, but for now I'm just going to cap all the vacuum ports and just run it on prime. Since I have the floats set now there shouldn't be any problems and I can remember to turn it back to ON when I turn it off.
Oh that's right I had forgot, only been in there once.
Good progress on the bike for sure.
So I cleaned the carbs, set the floats, capped all vacuum ports and then turned the bike to prime and it still wont run. it seems like it almost starts to run when if i hold the throttle down at the same time, but it doesn't go. The spark plugs are still black(I clean them, put them back in and they come out black again). The spark plugs still spark, but maybe they aren't sparking enough? I don't know what it could be at all at this point. There is also a little smoke coming out of the exhaust when I try to start it. I set the mixture screws to exactly 2.5 turns out so I'm not sure why it would be running rich still. I do have a 40 pilot jet in there, but I thought the bike just ran pretty lean from the factory so a 40 was a good replacement. I'm pretty stumped at this point...
Do you have an aftermarket intake or exhaust? Rejetting the carbs on a stock setup may not be optimal.
How old are the spark plugs? If you bought the bike and never replaced the plugs, I'd go ahead and do that now. It's cheap and easy, and it cant hurt.
The actual exhuast is stock with a voodoo muffler. Intake is stock. From what I've read 40 is the "stock" stock pilot jet size and it was only changed to 37.5 in the US version of the bike. The spark plugs are only a couple weeks old they were the first thing I replaced. Other than maybe the spark plugs these things don't seem like they should stop the bike from starting. They seem like they should just make it run lean, rich or rough. Or maybe they are that important... :dunno_black: ... I'm the newbie here lol.
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 25, 2013, 12:57:25 PMSo I cleaned the carbs, set the floats, capped all vacuum ports and then turned the bike to prime and it still wont run.
Hmmm ... back to basics I guess.
AIRI can't think of any potential problems with the air supply, especially since the filter is off. I mean, ideally you would have a clean one
in place, but the bike should at least run (if not perfectly) without it.
FUEL- (I can't remember if this was already discussed.) Since you're using the PRIme setting exclusively now, it's imperative that the hose from the longer, front-most outlet on the tank outlet is routed to the rear-most inlet on the frame-mounted ON/RES/PRI switch ... especially if there isn't much fuel in the tank.
- Can you tell whether fuel is actually moving through the RES line from the tank as you try to start the bike?
SPARK- Your bike ran fairly well recently, using the same (I assume) plugs. Still, it might be worth a few bucks to buy a backup pair and swap them with your "fouled" pair. (Sorry - someone else mentioned this while I was typing.)
- Whether current or new, make sure the spark plugs are "gapped" correctly.
Keep talking ... we're bound to latch onto some clues that lead us in the right direction. :thumb:
Quote from: Kerry on July 25, 2013, 01:33:15 PM
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 25, 2013, 12:57:25 PMSo I cleaned the carbs, set the floats, capped all vacuum ports and then turned the bike to prime and it still wont run.
Hmmm ... back to basics I guess.
AIR
I can't think of any potential problems with the air supply, especially since the filter is off. I mean, ideally you would have a clean one in place, but the bike should at least run (if not perfectly) without it.
FUEL- (I can't remember if this was already discussed.) Since you're using the PRIme setting exclusively now, it's imperative that the hose from the longer, front-most outlet on the tank outlet is routed to the rear-most inlet on the frame-mounted ON/RES/PRI switch ... especially if there isn't much fuel in the tank.
- Can you tell whether fuel is actually moving through the RES line from the tank as you try to start the bike?
SPARK- Your bike ran fairly well recently, using the same (I assume) plugs. Still, it might be worth a few bucks to buy a backup pair and swap them with your "fouled" pair. (Sorry - someone else mentioned this while I was typing.)
- Whether current or new, make sure the spark plugs are "gapped" correctly.
Keep talking ... we're bound to latch onto some clues that lead us in the right direction. :thumb:
The fuel is moving(I can feel the tubing pulse when trying to start the bike).
A new set of spark plugs seems like a good idea since these ones have probably been pretty abused by my vacuum issues from before. I'll get a new set as soon as I can.
One thing I noticed that may mean something is I was trying to adjust the idle screw while trying to keep it running and somewhere down there I thought I felt a puff of air or something on my arm when it died...
Another video! This time showing the sparks. If someone could tell from the video if the sparks look okay that would be great. Hopefully it is clear enough. Also another thing I've noticed is that the bike seems to get much closer to starting after it sits for maybe 20- 30 minutes without me touching it.
(also I apologize for the video's orientation, I forgot to turn my phone sideways.)
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 25, 2013, 01:36:29 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 25, 2013, 01:33:15 PMCan you tell whether fuel is actually moving through the RES line from the tank as you try to start the bike?
The fuel is moving(I can feel the tubing pulse when trying to start the bike).
The main reason for my question was to make sure the hoses are attached right. If they're switched, then the ON hose (on the tank end) matches with the PRI position, and if that hose is empty because of a low fuel level in the tank, there's nothing for the engine to burn. (Meanwhile, the RES hose would be attached to the ON position which has now been disabled.)
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 25, 2013, 01:36:29 PM
One thing I noticed that may mean something is I was trying to adjust the idle screw while trying to keep it running and somewhere down there I thought I felt a puff of air or something on my arm when it died...
Hmmm ... that
might turn into something. Seems like you could only get air "puffs" in that area from one of the carburetor "boots". Can you pin it down any further?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Regarding the "spark" video.... I can't tell from here; would you say the spark is more yellow or more blue? (It should be closer to blue.)
Oh, and is there any chance that the "smoke" you're getting from the exhaust is unburned fuel vapor? (Fairly white mist, smells like gas.)
The hoses are attached correctly I checked them. To me the spark seems more yellow, but it's hard to tell. And as far as the unburned vapor, that is very possible I can't tell if it smells like gas(everything smells like gas to me right now), but white mist could definitely describe what is coming out the exhaust.
Here is a picture of where my carbs meet the boots. Are they not in far enough?
(http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r780/cmat1120/IMG_20130725_143707_zps6a7bb8e5.jpg)
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 25, 2013, 02:36:03 PMHere is a picture of where my carbs meet the boots. Are they not in far enough?
I'm gonna say "No" to that. Here's an old picture from my '99 ... ignore the caption unless you get the carbs all the way into the boots and then you eventually arrive at a "hanging idle" or other lean condition.
(http://bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_0797_Carb_Engine_Boots.jpg)
ok thank you, Ill go try to push them further on then.
Wow, that's not on at all. Loosen up the clamps and get the carbs seated all the way in the boots, that should definitely help.
Ok I have them all the way on for sure now. No change in anything else though, its acting exactly the same as before.
That's OK - I didn't expect the "incomplete carb seating" to be the difference between starting and NOT starting.
Hmmm. Assuming that the plugs themselves are good (which you'll be testing with a backup set shortly) and gapped properly, I'm about ready to turn to some deeper electrical tests. Do you have a decent multimeter with voltage (V) and resistance (Ω) settings?
I'd like to start by checking the resistance values for the "pulse generator" coils and the actual ignition coils. For the former, locate a 3-wire connector on the left side near the battery. (Check the wire colors in the diagram below.)
(http://bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_IgnitionWiring_WithSteps.jpg)
Using the appropriate resistance range on the meter, measure the resistance between a Black/Blue connection and a Brown connection. Then test between Black/Blue and Green/White. Both measurements should be between 250 ohms and 420 ohms. If either of them measures higher than that (or "Infinite") you may need to make your way toward the signal generators one connection at a time until you find the "culprit" wire or connection. (Hopefully the coils themselves are good!)
I've been "bitten" myself by some corroded connectors in this circuit. My bike wouldn't start, and I was getting a nice-sized spark, but yellow instead of blue. Fixing the "at fault" connections got me going again.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
If those circuits look OK, carry out similar measurements on the ignition coils themselves, like so:
(http://bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_IgnitionCoilTest.jpg)
The "Primary" measurements should be between 3 and 6 ohms and the "Secondary" measurements should be between 18,000 (18K) and 30,000 (30K) ohms.
I just bought some new spark plugs so I'll try those first and if they don't help I'll move onto the electronics.
One thing I'm good with is electronics (I am planning on adding a fingerprint scanner based ignition system :P). I can definitely test all of the things you suggested. I'll be back with my results.
I actually just looked on ebay and a much newer bike's wiring harness isn't too expensive. The wiring and connections all over my bike are not that great so I wouldn't mind just replacing the whole thing or at least most of it. How new of a bike's wiring harness is compatible with mine? Or how hard would it be to make one compatible?(I am happy to cut and solder wires)
Quote from: Kerry on July 24, 2013, 07:06:43 PM
That's how I have always done it. In fact, I just did it the other day to help out a GS rider who brought his carbs down from Salt Lake City.
I am that GS rider! Even with the worst math skills and spilling fuel on myself Kerry was able to help me in no time! I think that the idea of keeping things as "Stock" as possible helped me a lot also, so before I go buying new after market parts I would try and get the stock ones, and go from there.
[Kerry: Edited to change "Kenny" to "Kerry". :icon_rolleyes:]
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 25, 2013, 06:19:44 PMHow new of a bike's wiring harness is compatible with mine?
Hmmm ... good question.
I believe yours is a pre-'01 model, right? Mid-90's? You should be pretty safe with anything up through 2000. After that it
might get a little dicey, but I wouldn't know for sure ... no personal experience with that.
But! I have a spare wiring harness around here (somewhere) that someone sent me years ago. Can't remember why I wanted one now; maybe because of those corroded connectors? Unfortunately, I'm running out of time to be of much help until Saturday evening ... I have to get ready for an overnighter with my Boy Scout troop at 4:00 on Friday. (As it is, I'll have to take a little time off work tomorrow to get everything done in time. >:()
Hang in there!
It's a 1990 actually. I'd like to just modify an 09 harness if I can(newer wiring and connectors), but that might be a bit unrealistic. I'll see if there are any fresh looking older ones on ebay.
Quote from: Kerry on July 25, 2013, 04:29:55 PM
Using the appropriate resistance range on the meter, measure the resistance between a Black/Blue connection and a Brown connection. Then test between Black/Blue and Green/White. Both measurements should be between 250 ohms and 420 ohms. If either of them measures higher than that (or "Infinite") you may need to make your way toward the signal generators one connection at a time until you find the "culprit" wire or connection. (Hopefully the coils themselves are good!)
I've been "bitten" myself by some corroded connectors in this circuit. My bike wouldn't start, and I was getting a nice-sized spark, but yellow instead of blue. Fixing the "at fault" connections got me going again.
I tested those connections and got 2.03k ohms as the resistance for both connections. Could you help me with where in relation to the bike the next place to check is? I can't figure out from the wiring diagram.
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 28, 2013, 05:05:44 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 25, 2013, 04:29:55 PM
Using the appropriate resistance range on the meter, measure the resistance between a Black/Blue connection and a Brown connection. Then test between Black/Blue and Green/White. Both measurements should be between 250 ohms and 420 ohms. If either of them measures higher than that (or "Infinite") you may need to make your way toward the signal generators one connection at a time until you find the "culprit" wire or connection. (Hopefully the coils themselves are good!)
I tested those connections and got 2.03k ohms as the resistance for both connections. Could you help me with where in relation to the bike the next place to check is? I can't figure out from the wiring diagram.
From memory, the 4-wire connector (for "Step 2") is under or behind the "black box" that controls the ignition timing. The best way to find it is to follow the
Back/blue and
Brown and
Green/white wires
away from the "black box" and toward the front of the bike until you encounter the 4-wire connector. All of this is on the left side of the bike, but after leaving the 4-wire connector the wires cross over to the signal (or "pulse") coils behind the right side engine cover.
At each connector, you should be able to measure the resistance for a given wire
through the connector by touching the meter probes to the metal crimps where the wires enter on both sides of the connector. You should get a reading REALLY close to zero for each such measurement. If you get a fairly high reading, pull the connector apart and check for corrosion, etc.
Ok, so I think I understand, but just to clarify. Now that I know there's something wrong with the resistance I want to check the same wire between each set of connectors to try and find the location of the unusual resistance, right? Or should I only check at the connector itself? I'll probably just check both since it takes a couple seconds, but since you are "directing" me here I want to make sure I'm giving you results for exactly what you're asking me to do. Also thank you very much for all this help!
You could say that we're taking a top-down approach. We start out by testing the entire "round trip" circuit. If the overall reading is OK, there is no need to do further checks. If the resistance is too high, we shorten the length of the circuit we're testing until the reading looks good. At that point, we know the problem is somewhere "above" the measurement points.
The problem could be a broken wire, but that's not as likely as a dirty or corroded connection.
My original experience with this circuit came as a result of a "newbie" move on my part. I needed to clean some corrosion from the battery terminals but I was so new at wrenching that I didn't want to disconnect the battery and remove it from the bike. So I sprayed some "battery cleaner" on the terminals with the battery in-place.
Excess cleaner dripped onto the 4-wire connector (situated under the negative battery terminal, now that I think about it) with the following result:
(http://bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_0041_CorrodedConnector.jpg)
Of course, when I tried to measure the resistance through the connector, I got a very high (or "infinite") reading on at least one wire. Try as I might, I could not pull the connector apart, so I ended up cutting it out of the circuit altogether and replacing it with 4 separate connectors (the pink ones in the photo below):
(http://bbburma.net/MiscFotos/100_0272_CorrodedConnectorBypassed.jpg)
(Fair warning! The pink connectors worked fine for many thousands of miles, but the recent problem I had with the bike not starting was traced back to one - or more - of them. Either the crimp was starting to fail, or there was a little too much "oxide" on the aluminum connector itself. I replaced one of the connectors and cleaned the others, and my ignition problems are solved again ... for now.)
Alright so I may have done this wrong the first time. That connector that you posted the pics of...if i measure the resistance n the left side(towards front of the bike) of it I get about 350 ohms. the right side(towards back of the bike) is where I get the 2k ohms. Where should I measure next? I know theres a bunch of connections in the headlamp and thats the only place I know of where there are connections following the wires in the direction of the high resistance...
wait wait wait wait. I might have been really stupid. should I keep the connection together and just check the resistance through the back of the plug? If I do that I get about 300 ohms which would mean that the resistance is fine.
Also heres a pic of the spark plugs. I am getting a new battery later today and I will replace the spark plugs when I have the battery.
(http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r780/cmat1120/IMG_20130729_100649_zpsbc5ff949.jpg)
Yep, that's the idea! :thumb:
But I was a little "stupid" too,; I neglected to mention that the measurements for these circuits should be taken with the 3-wire connector pulled apart. That isolates the signal generator coil circuits from the "black box" and other circuitry.
Ok, but since the left side of the connector is measuring the correct resistance I'm ok? Or does it sound like I still have an issue? Looking at those spark plugs now they look pretty bad, but I don't know what it takes to make a spark plug not work anymore.
Also I noticed that that black and blue wire goes all the way back to the connector for the left controls on the handlebars...is that normal? I'm trying to find a full wiring diagram, but even in a manual I have I can't find it.
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 29, 2013, 10:19:55 AMOk, but since the left side of the connector is measuring the correct resistance I'm ok? Or does it sound like I still have an issue?
That depends on whether the 3-wire connector has been pulled apart. If not, then the current from your ohmmeter might be taking a "path of least resistance" through the "black box" or another part of the circuit.
With the 3-wire connector pulled apart, if you get the right measurements between the 2 pairs of wires, you're done. If not, you need to trace down until you find the part of the circuit with the too-high resistance.
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 29, 2013, 10:19:55 AMI'm trying to find a full wiring diagram, but even in a manual I have I can't find it.
Try one of these:
- http://bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_WiringDiagram_US_90-96.jpg (http://bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_WiringDiagram_US_90-96.jpg)
- http://bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_WiringDiagram_US_97.jpg (http://bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_WiringDiagram_US_97.jpg)
Ok, I think im having trouble finding where you say to start. I think I've been measuring where you marked as the second step. what does that first 3 wire connection look like and where is it? maybe my wiring harness has been hacked up or something, but I can't find it.
Nevermind, nevermind, nevermind lol. I found that three wire connector(the white one that was right in front of me lol). Measured the resistance there and I got 363 ohms for both connections.
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 29, 2013, 11:49:24 AMI found that three wire connector(the white one that was right in front of me lol). Measured the resistance there and I got 363 ohms for both connections.
Cool. Sorry for the long detour, but at least you've eliminated another possibility. :thumb:
So I tested the new spark plugs and battery and no change... I'm absolutely out of ideas at this point :dunno_black: . Plus it turns out my mustang's engine is pretty messed up(shop said an engine replacement is probably my best bet :cry:) so now I really need to get this bike running soon lol.
Kerry also suggested the coils.. I know you got sidetracked on the connector.. were the coils tested from the bottom of page 2? know they spark.. but not sure if you tested them.
This bike was starting and not staying running.. now its not starting..
Has compression test been done?
I will be honest when it gets down to testing wires, etc It can be a little over my head so I am throwing ideas out to see if anything sticks.
no compression tests...I'm guessing I'd have to take it to a shop to get that done? and I haven't tested the coils. If someone could help with how to test them or direct me to a source that tells me how I can test them tomorrow morning. The new plugs do spark nice big blue sparks now though. One of the problems I have is no way of getting it to a shop(no truck or trailer or even a vehicle to pull a trailer). At this point I'm ready to test just about anything(I have sooo much free time lol) so if anyone has any idea or anything I can test or try please tell me.
A lot of auto sales stores allow you to rent a compression tester... Autozone around me does, probably Advanced Auto too, and I'm sure there are others. You just need to make sure it has the correct sized fitting for our engines (not sure which that is off the top of my head).
- Bboy
So i just went ahead and bought one. Here are the compression results: right dry: 90, left dry: 80, right wet: 140, left wet: 80. I honestly don't know what this means other than its probably gonna get expensive lol. Does anyone know where to go from here? Also what are the correct numbers for compression?
your giving two right readings? which is left?
Also the coil test is in Kerry's post bottom of page 2 in this thread.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
If those circuits look OK, carry out similar measurements on the ignition coils themselves, like so:
(http://bbburma.net/Scans/Haynes_IgnitionCoilTest.jpg)
The "Primary" measurements should be between 3 and 6 ohms and the "Secondary" measurements should be between 18,000 (18K) and 30,000 (30K) ohms.
I fixed the typo now. From what I've researched it looks like I probably have valve issues on the right and ring issues on the left, maybe more. I think I'm going to check the coils after i fix the compression or when I'm waiting on parts or something cause they aren't much use if my compression is this bad. And I'm getting good sparks.
Does anyone know if I can get to the valves and/or the piston rings without taking the engine out of the bike?
Coils are right below the gas tank. a few minutes and you at them.
Yes, you can do valves and rings with the engine still in the frame.
Quote from: Paulcet on July 31, 2013, 05:19:32 AM
Yes, you can do valves and rings with the engine still in the frame.
Cool, that's good news. Also I just realized that another likely possibility is that the cylinder's might be scratched up from the previous owner not having an air filter on the bike. If this is the case are there parts out there to bore up the gs500? Or could I replace the cylinder piece? I'm guessing I would just replace the whole thing with the fins coming off it(not sure what it's actually called). I was told the cheapest option would probably be to bore up since I'll most likely need new heads and rings anyways, but I can't find any piston heads or rings stock or bored up for the gs500. I basically just want to do whichever will be cheapest.
Also if someone could confirm that bad compression could cause my bike to not start(act the way it does) that would help too. Just with peace of mind lol.
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 31, 2013, 06:29:13 AM
Quote from: Paulcet on July 31, 2013, 05:19:32 AM
Yes, you can do valves and rings with the engine still in the frame.
Cool, that's good news. Also I just realized that another likely possibility is that the cylinder's might be scratched up from the previous owner not having an air filter on the bike. If this is the case are there parts out there to bore up the gs500? Or could I replace the cylinder piece? I'm guessing I would just replace the whole thing with the fins coming off it(not sure what it's actually called). I was told the cheapest option would probably be to bore up since I'll most likely need new heads and rings anyways, but I can't find any piston heads or rings stock or bored up for the gs500. I basically just want to do whichever will be cheapest.
Also if someone could confirm that bad compression could cause my bike to not start(act the way it does) that would help too. Just with peace of mind lol.
No filter doesn't mean the cyl will be "scratched up"
The upper cyl wear just is higher than if there was a filter. It shows up as a lower engine life lower power compared to when it had good filtration, and higher oil useage more than anything else.
If your bike ran good, and 5 miles later wont run, its not cos your previous owner didn't run a filter.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Kerry on July 29, 2013, 12:19:53 PM
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 29, 2013, 11:49:24 AMI found that three wire connector(the white one that was right in front of me lol). Measured the resistance there and I got 363 ohms for both connections.
Cool. Sorry for the long detour, but at least you've eliminated another possibility. :thumb:
Test these hot. After the 45 second run ...
These can work fine when cold, and open up when hot.
Or is that short when hot .. .I dunno ... whatever it is, it wont run when hot.
Cool.
Buddha.
Also 45 sec maybe a valve just starting to hang open ... how is your valve adjustment ?
Cool.
Buddha.
oh ok, well I guess that's a good thing...maybe. I understand this engine will probably never run like new again, but I'll be happy if it just runs ok. I guess I just have to get in there and see what I find. I think I have one of those tools for checking valves so i'll do that, and inspect the piston rings and cylinders? Not sure what I'll be looking for, but ill try and post pics and describe everything on here. It doesn't look too hard with all the info on gstwins. Thank you for the help!
Also once I fix the compression issues I'll check that resistance again. It doesn't run even for those 45 seconds anymore so it doesn't get hot. Also one other thing I think may be bad right now is my previous problem with the vacuum system flooding gas probably caused gas to leak into the oil diluting it. That obviously doesn't help anything so an oil change and filter change are probable needed too. I guess the good thing I can take from this is I am learning a whole lot more about motorcycles than I ever thought I would haha.
Quote from: cmat1120 on July 31, 2013, 10:03:15 AM
oh ok, well I guess that's a good thing...maybe. I understand this engine will probably never run like new again, but I'll be happy if it just runs ok. I guess I just have to get in there and see what I find. I think I have one of those tools for checking valves so i'll do that, and inspect the piston rings and cylinders? Not sure what I'll be looking for, but ill try and post pics and describe everything on here. It doesn't look too hard with all the info on gstwins. Thank you for the help!
Stop. Trouble shoot a motor when its still in the frame and assembled. If you find it has low compression and bad leakdown, then yea rebuild it.
This problem of yours really sounds like the crank trigger. I have had it do similar things.
Cool.
Buddha.
So I was taking the engine apart and after getting to the point of taking the cams out, I realized that the instruction for checking the valves is done with the cams still in. Do I have to put them back in to check them? Also where exactly are the actual valves or what do they look like? I want to inspect them for carbon buildup and stuff. I've read some stuff about them sometimes just needing to be cleaned so I want to clean them if I can.
Quote from: cmat1120 on August 01, 2013, 10:41:31 AM
Do I have to put them back in to check them? Also where exactly are the actual valves or what do they look like?
Yes, you have to put the cams back in to check the valve clearance. I know you have nothing else to do but work on your bike, but before you take it further, PLEASE go look at the videos in the Video Tutorial Thread: http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=58403.0
Most of those videos(that were relevant) don't work, but I've been using the tutorials on gstwin, beergarage and the videos on baltimoreGS's youtube channel. Don't worry I'm not doing anything a tutorial doesn't explicitly tell me to do. I just made the mistake of following a head and cylinder removal tutorial, before the valve clearance one. My plan now is to continue the full disassembly, clean and inspect everything and then when I put it all back together I will check the valve clearance. So far everything is going nice and smooth.
One thing I could use some advice on: I need a cheap-ish torque wrench. From what i've read, the only reliable cheap torque wrench is one with the dial. I was wondering if someone knows of a specific wrench either online or at a store that I could buy. I want to minimize my cost here, but more so I want to be safe as far as not breaking any bolts or anything.
cheapest torque wrench is one that a buddy will let you borrow for a little while! ...
i understand your need to budget the $$ .. generally though you pay for quality/accuracy .. buy the best you can afford at the time?!
knowing WHEN and HOW to use the thing is more critical for most situations :thumb:
Quote from: cmat1120 on August 01, 2013, 05:22:27 PMI need a cheap-ish torque wrench. From what i've read, the only reliable cheap torque wrench is one with the dial. I was wondering if someone knows of a specific wrench either online or at a store that I could buy. I want to minimize my cost here, but more so I want to be safe as far as not breaking any bolts or anything.
For my take on the subject, see
[THIS OLD POST (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=13203.msg111669#msg111669)]. (Skip the first few paragraphs to get to the "torque wrench" bit.)
Oh, and you'll want to double-check those 9-year-old prices ... if they even sell the same models anymore. ;)
Thanks! I didn't even think of borrowing one. I'll probably try and do that. I almost have everything out, but I can't figure out how to get the head off. I keep getting stuck on the front studs on the left and right. I can't lift it up and over those. Is there a trick to this? lol
One thing I noticed is that all of the shims are 2.65. Is that the stock size?(if there is a stock size) It seems strange to me that a 23 year old bike would still have the stock shims. Maybe the valves are really out of whack? Also I haven't gotten the head off yet, but I was able to see the tops of the pistons and they are completely black.
Alright new issue due to my stupidity. I dropped one of those little cylinder things into the engine(hopefully the picture explains this better than my words). I have no idea how to get it out. It fell behind the timing chain guide(towards back of bike) and a magnet stick did not work. Is it even possible to get in there or something? Hopefully there's a way to fix this.
(http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r780/cmat1120/28cb41fa-2366-4934-9a41-d5e40e1436b1_zps80abfc53.jpg)
Never been down there myself, but I can only assume that if you drop the oil pan you'll find the "little cylinder thing" sitting there waiting for you.
Do not fret sir, anything dropped in there takes a straight passage to the bottom of the oil pan like Kerry said. Poop that bad boy off and your guide should be taking a bath in oil.
THANK YOU!!!! I'm so relieved now haha. So I got that guy out of there(the oil was very diluted anyways so it needed to be changed). I am now going to clean up the pistons and if they seem alright, I'll probably just put it back together and reshim the valves. If anyone knows where I could buy piston rings it might not be a bad idea for me to change those out and hone the cylinders, but I cant find them anywhere.