OK. I'v replaced lots of fork seals. Never an issue.
Gorilla replaced his seals then one started leaking. So he came over and we replaced it. Now 2 weeks later both are leaking.
In reassembling the front, the tubes slid in easily so the triples would appear to be aligned. We insured all was loose so the forks could self-align then tightened up the right fork floating spacer followed by the fork brace.
What would cause forks with seals replaced by 2 different people at 2 different times to start leaking within 2 weeks?
Hoping for ideas. Tubes looked clean with no scratches. Only thing I can now think of is the forks are bent a little which is causing the seals to leak.
What things can we look for today as we replace the seals again?
It has me stumped.
Oh, and he reports lots of oil consumption. Most common cause? Could it be valve stem seals? Piston rings? (We can do a compression test today)
It's crap quality seals or an imperfection in the tubes? (But I'm sure you have already thought of that)
EDIT: guess you can't rule out bad fork oil either??
On a totally unrelated subject, do you wanna go Scootin Shootin? I'm leaving for the National Forest soon! :dunno_black:
New fork oil not the cheap stuff.
OEM fork seals I put in. Not sure what he put in the first time.
We're going to look for any imperfection in the lower end of the tubes. Maybe bent. Maybe oval shape? :dunno_black:
Shooting where and when?
Above Greenwater, gunna take the scenic route up Green River Rd...today in a couple of hours??
Gorilla coming over now to work on those forks.
Was planning going to Champion tonight to test factory Ruger 25 round magazines in the 10-22 that came in yesterday (and other toys). Butler Creek mags are crap (jam every 4 rounds). Frustrated with the 10-22 because of that. Champion in Renton open until 9pm today.
If we get cone early, maybe SPAA range because it is close but they close at 4:30.
Will be doing .22's at the stadium on 35th Monday at 6:30.
OK..cool, I will give you more notice next time :thumb:
You're more than welcome to help diagnose the fork issue then go shooting :icon_lol:
(That is magazines came in yesterday - had the 10-22 and was frustrated with all the jams and determined Butler Creek magazines are crap. The lips are not designed the same as Ruger does it. So things do feed correcty.)
I see Gorilla has a 91 GS-E but don't see any reference to mileage on it. If it has high mileage the fork seal problem could be due to worn bushings affecting the seal, Check for bushing wear between tube and slider to see if its deflecting excessively due to wear.
On the same note, if he has high mileage on the engine his oil consumption could be normal for a GS with high mileage. Based on my experience I wouldn't suspect a valve seal problem, never had a hint of one up to 80-90k miles on my 2 GSs. If you shut down hot and let cool overnight like you do for a valve check see if the pockets in the head where the cam lobes dip in oil are still full, if they are the seals are OK. Give the engine a hot compression check and then put a shot of oil in thru plug holes and check again. A significant improvement in compression would indicate worn rings.
Under 9k miles.
There is a really bad oil stank right now. See the pix. Makes me think a bad bottle of fork oil. Seems BOTH seals are dissolving away. Once seal (right side of pix, the left one) they got with the bike( pair of new ones which they installed). We replaced the other one with an OEM 2 weeks ago. Now both are leaking.
My oil on the shelf doesn't stank. So we're not sure. he brought over fresh new from the store 15w fork oil. We plan to drain the forks. Put in fresh oil. Pump them. Drain them. Replace seals then put in new oil.
[attachment deleted by admin]
added note: compression both sides was 155. With oil in the cylinders it went up to 180-185.
My 2c, check the fork runout, and replace the bushes. Then new seals and oil.
yeah, fork bushings could be a cause, but would have to be pretty bad to distort a brand new seal enough to leak. i would double check that perhaps they wernt a bit over filled. could also rip em down again and check where the outer part of the seals sit and make sure the surface is very clean and free of pits scratchs or galling
I used to have this issue, and I think it was mainly because I was overfilling my forks with oil. I have progressives, and I was filling to 99mm (stock). Progressives require filling to 130mm from the top. Also, one of my forks was worse than the other, and it had some minor looking pitting in the chrome plating. I replaced that upper fork tube with a nicer one (from Adidasguy in fact), filled to 130mm, and they haven't leaked a bit for the last year and 2000 miles later. I always used OEM seals, and I used 15w Maxima brand fork oil. It does smell a little funky...
Info about mileage changes picture. A 22 year old bike with less than 9k miles on it usually has some leaking seals from sitting around drying out too much of the time.. Your compression test makes rings looks good, time to check valve seals. I buy bikes new or almost new and run them for many miles/year until they are used up at 80-100k miles or so, never had a problem with GS500 valve seals but that bike is a good candidate for bad valve seals.
On our first trip to the mountains we stopped about an hour for dinner. When we came out and started bikes son JP's GS1100E smoked like a chimney for a minute or two and then stopped and never smoked again that day. A sure sign of bad valve seals when bike sits long enough for oil in the pockets in the head around the valves to drain down into the cylinders but not long enough for it to drain on down into the sump and thereby not smoke in the morning. Or pull valve cover after shutdown and sitting all night to see if cam lobe oil pockets are full or drained thru the seals like suggested above. Should notice this anyway every valve check.
You much more versed than me on this, but maybe the "flush" on the forks you could save a little money by using Automatic trans fluid.. I have done that on a measly 3 sets of seals with no recurrent issues.
I know some fill with trans fluid. You have probably thought of this, or maybe the maxima oil is the same as the trans oil with regard for cost.
I rebuilt the forsk on my new GSXR a few days back and couldnt believe how easy they were to do. Thankfully, the seals are holding. I would still hate to do everything again if I had to
Good luck with these forks you guys are working on
Everything is back together. We shall see if there are any further problems.
Impossible to put things back together wrong with bluesmudge and the world famous suzuki-stevo standing by. (Yes - quite a crowd at the Bike Cave today! Tomorrow Vashon ride if anyone wants to go. Meet at cave at 11am.)
Forks were checked for straightness. A-OK,
Flushed with new fork oil then same new fork oil put in to 130mm head space (progressive springs).
Pat, again...thanks for planting the Ruger 10/22 seed in the post earlier today, that's all the excuse I needed, a perfect "Scootin Shootin" gun! :thumb:
(how did things go @ the range?)
(http://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2012/08/Ruger-10-22-Takedown_001.jpg)
Took a shower. Sat down. Fell asleep. Was after 7 when I woke up so too late to load the car and get to the range.
I'll be doing the high school stadium range Monday at 6:30 (off of 35th, next to the golf course) if you happen to want to stop in. $4 fee and you could try out your new toy. Its open every Monday 6:30pm until everyone leaves. usually 9pm or so. 50 feet. Targets provided. 8 lanes.
Ruger 10/22.... man I really enjoyed mine - until our Govt decided they were too dangerous for the public to own and made them illegal, hit me with a gun buy back tax, then used the money they just took from me to buy the gun off me, under penalty of jail time.
Wow! A .22 is illegal? What is legal - cap guns?
Every state here has different gun laws. Calif. is the worst. Many companies just won't ship anything there. Now CA wants the firing pin to be engraved to ID a gun. Washington State here is pretty easy. You can do private gun sales with no paperwork. No limit of number of rounds in a magazine (some states limit it to 10 or 7).
What do they allow you to have?
Here, with more bears, coyotes, wolves and other critters, it makes you think seriously about carrying a small handgun when riding in the back roads. You never know what may show up if you stop for a break in the woods.
Quote from: adidasguy on July 28, 2013, 12:42:43 AM
Here, with more bears, coyotes, wolves and other critters, it makes you think seriously about carrying a small handgun when riding in the back roads. You never know what may show up if you stop for a break in the woods.
You guys are just itching for any excuse to shoot sh1t. :2guns: :flipoff:
Here the gun would be used as more of a pest controller than protection. Crows, feral cats, feral pigs. Maybe to euthanise an injured roo by the side of the road. Strict licencing on any gun though. Even air powered ones.
Quote from: adidasguy on July 28, 2013, 12:42:43 AM
Wow! A .22 is illegal? What is legal - cap guns?
Every state here has different gun laws. Calif. is the worst. Many companies just won't ship anything there. Now CA wants the firing pin to be engraved to ID a gun. Washington State here is pretty easy. You can do private gun sales with no paperwork. No limit of number of rounds in a magazine (some states limit it to 10 or 7).
What do they allow you to have?
To get a gun in Australia (and my state Queensland) this is the entire procedure...
1- Must first have a gun license. To get a license you must....
(a) do a gun safety course which includes classroom time and range time. At the conclusion you are issued a Gun Safety Certificate.
(b) have a Valid Reason for owning a gun. Valid reasons can be a member of an approved gun club - or - have a Letter of Permission from a landowner allowing you to hunt on their property.
(c) have a lockable storage device for your guns which must weigh either 150kg or if less be bolted to the ground.
(d) fill out the Weapons Licensing Application and include with it your Safety Cert, Proof of Valid Reason and passport photos.
If you have Never previously held a firearm license (called a Weapons License) the Weapons Licensing Branch will not even bother looking at your application for one month. After one month they will process your application which will include a police check. You will Not be granted a license if you have a Court Ordered Domestic Violence Order against you, have previous felony convictions or are deemed mentally unstable by previous hospitalizations. It could take them a week or two to process your application. So you might get your license in the mail 6 weeks after submitting your application. Your license will have Categories and Uses written on it.
Cat A = airrifles, rimfires & shotguns
Cat B = Centerfire
Other Categories require additional hoops to jump through (eg, Cat H, handgun) but I won't go into those here, just the basics. Your Safety Course will grant you Cat A and Cat B.
Uses on the license are Rec (hunting) and Sport (club / range). In my state, a club membership also grants you Rec on the license. Other states will only grant you a Rec if you have a Letter of Permission. Otherwise, our laws are National.
2 - With a License you can now buy a gun. The process is this...
(e) visit local police station and ask for an Application For a "Permit To Acquire".
(f) go shopping. The Application has space on it to list the intended gun to buy, the caliber, intended use. The easiest way to use this Application is, let the gun shop fill in the details. Once you have found your new toy and the details are filled in, take it back to a police station with the correct application fee and hand it over. On this application is the Address to send the Permit To Acquire to. Easiest thing is have them send it to the gun store.
If this is your first firearm, your application will once again not be looked at for one month. After which time it could take a week or two.
(g) the gun store called you to let you know the Permit To Acquire has arrived. You go there, show your license (always need to show your license to buy gun or ammo) and fill in the Permit. This has all the details of the gun, serial number, etc. A copy of which is sent to Weapons Licensing to be filed against your name on the Gun Register! Your Weapons License is linked in their system to your Driving License so they always know where you are.
(h) Walk out with your new purchase. If it's your first firearm, the process has taken nearly 3 months all up (no way you can rush out and buy a gun in the heat of the moment). And you will receive a letter from Weapons Licensing listing your gun and its details.
(i) subsequent purchases only require the Application for Permit To Acquire and once submitted after shopping, will usually arrive at the gun store within a week.
With the intended use of the firearm, you can write things like, target practice, small bore close range, long range, etc.
3 - Illegal Guns. Semi auto rifles and shotguns with a magazine capacity greater than 2. The Ruger 10/22 while only a 22, is a semi auto to not allowed. Pump action shottys can only hold two rounds. Semi-auto 2 round shotguns are allowed due to medical conditions (such as medically proven shoulder issues which are softened by the reduced recoil of the semi-auto shotgun). There are exceptions, of course, but for professional shooters (animal cullers for example), but not too much for the general public.
Despite all these hoops to jump through, more and more people are acquiring their license all the time.
4 - Gun Tracking. Guns can essentially only be sold by Licensed Firearm Sellers. So even if you want to sell it privately, it must be done Through them. They will fill out the paperwork which transfers the gun from you to the new buyer so Weapons Licensing can track the gun. If they work on a gun, they must fill out paperwork letting Weapons Licensing know the gun is now in their possession and not yours.
This is the procedure we must all go through even for a break open .17 airrifle. And there are no restrictions on the number of Cat A and Cat B guns you can own. Just make sure your ammo is stored in a separate locked container. As such "self defense" can never be a valid reason as it does not good as self defense withe everything locked away.
5 - Anecdote: I once lived in a border town - town which straddles the border. As such I had two licenses (one for each state) and yes, I had to sit 2 Safety Courses. So there I am in state one and had not updated my address after I moved. I came home one day to a note from the local police asking me to get in touch with them as a matter of urgency. I called. They told me I had to Immediately bring in my unlicensed guns. Turns out, my license for that state had expired the day before and they found me through my driving license. I gave them my license details from the other state for them to check and get back to me - which they did do and all was well I could keep my guns.
So, there you go....
Harsh Tokes.....Ted Nugent would not be happy there :sad:
Mister,
That type of Government control is why so many of us here in the states refuse to give up those rights. ".. "self defense" can never be a valid reason " its the most valid reason anyone can have to owning and carrying Firearms. Granted, everyone should go through a safety class as well as be we practiced with each firearm owned/used. but i dont believe the government or anyone needs to know where nor how many firearms i might or might not own. i sure as hell should not need a permit to own, much less carry a firearm on my person. every country that gives up their guns seems to regret it really fast.
ANYWAY........(un hijacking the thread)
how did the seal mating area look inside the lower fork tube?
Quote from: Blueknyt on July 28, 2013, 01:59:11 PM
Mister,
That type of Government control is why so many of us here in the states refuse to give up those rights. ".. "self defense" can never be a valid reason " its the most valid reason anyone can have to owning and carrying Firearms.
You know what, no-one here Willingly gave up anything. It was Forced upon us. Members of Parliament who disagreed with it, and whose constituents disagreed, still voted it in. WTF!?
The money used to Buy Back the now illegal guns was obtained via increasing the Medical Tax we all pay.
Yes, you could simply just not hand back such a gun. Take my 10/22 for example of just one of the guns I was coerced into handing over. So, let's say I did not hand it back and somehow my owning the gun was discovered - on way to property to shoot, roadside Random Breath test sees gun case in vehicle and asks to inspect guns and / or on way to property to shoot and guns are in boot but car is involved in a crash which police attend..... The old penalties (under these laws we have) for possessing such a gun were up to $10,000 fine and 2 years in jail. But I believe this has been changed to $20,000 fine and up to 4 years in jail. So.... yeah, keep a gun and risk a large fine and/or jail or be paid for my gun and then use that money to go buy another bolt action to replace it?
Yes the idea this made the Public safer is a load of BS. But we do not have a powerful gun lobby with a million+ members in this country. We don't have one third of the population owning guns. We don't have a Bill of Rights. Things are different here in that regard.I do not condone the restriction, but I am not really effected by it - still can buy a gun of my choosing from those available and shoot it. Just that big brother know the types and number of guns I have and there is nothing I can do about it. So we suck it up and move on.
Quote from: mister on July 28, 2013, 01:09:34 PM
Quote from: adidasguy on July 28, 2013, 12:42:43 AM
Wow! A .22 is illegal? What is legal - cap guns?
Every state here has different gun laws. Calif. is the worst. Many companies just won't ship anything there. Now CA wants the firing pin to be engraved to ID a gun. Washington State here is pretty easy. You can do private gun sales with no paperwork. No limit of number of rounds in a magazine (some states limit it to 10 or 7).
What do they allow you to have?
To get a gun in Australia (and my state Queensland) this is the entire procedure...
1- Must first have a gun license. To get a license you must....
(a) do a gun safety course which includes classroom time and range time. At the conclusion you are issued a Gun Safety Certificate.
(b) have a Valid Reason for owning a gun. Valid reasons can be a member of an approved gun club - or - have a Letter of Permission from a landowner allowing you to hunt on their property.
(c) have a lockable storage device for your guns which must weigh either 150kg or if less be bolted to the ground.
(d) fill out the Weapons Licensing Application and include with it your Safety Cert, Proof of Valid Reason and passport photos.
If you have Never previously held a firearm license (called a Weapons License) the Weapons Licensing Branch will not even bother looking at your application for one month. After one month they will process your application which will include a police check. You will Not be granted a license if you have a Court Ordered Domestic Violence Order against you, have previous felony convictions or are deemed mentally unstable by previous hospitalizations. It could take them a week or two to process your application. So you might get your license in the mail 6 weeks after submitting your application. Your license will have Categories and Uses written on it.
Cat A = airrifles, rimfires & shotguns
Cat B = Centerfire
Other Categories require additional hoops to jump through (eg, Cat H, handgun) but I won't go into those here, just the basics. Your Safety Course will grant you Cat A and Cat B.
Uses on the license are Rec (hunting) and Sport (club / range). In my state, a club membership also grants you Rec on the license. Other states will only grant you a Rec if you have a Letter of Permission. Otherwise, our laws are National.
2 - With a License you can now buy a gun. The process is this...
(e) visit local police station and ask for an Application For a "Permit To Acquire".
(f) go shopping. The Application has space on it to list the intended gun to buy, the caliber, intended use. The easiest way to use this Application is, let the gun shop fill in the details. Once you have found your new toy and the details are filled in, take it back to a police station with the correct application fee and hand it over. On this application is the Address to send the Permit To Acquire to. Easiest thing is have them send it to the gun store.
If this is your first firearm, your application will once again not be looked at for one month. After which time it could take a week or two.
(g) the gun store called you to let you know the Permit To Acquire has arrived. You go there, show your license (always need to show your license to buy gun or ammo) and fill in the Permit. This has all the details of the gun, serial number, etc. A copy of which is sent to Weapons Licensing to be filed against your name on the Gun Register! Your Weapons License is linked in their system to your Driving License so they always know where you are.
(h) Walk out with your new purchase. If it's your first firearm, the process has taken nearly 3 months all up (no way you can rush out and buy a gun in the heat of the moment). And you will receive a letter from Weapons Licensing listing your gun and its details.
(i) subsequent purchases only require the Application for Permit To Acquire and once submitted after shopping, will usually arrive at the gun store within a week.
With the intended use of the firearm, you can write things like, target practice, small bore close range, long range, etc.
3 - Illegal Guns. Semi auto rifles and shotguns with a magazine capacity greater than 2. The Ruger 10/22 while only a 22, is a semi auto to not allowed. Pump action shottys can only hold two rounds. Semi-auto 2 round shotguns are allowed due to medical conditions (such as medically proven shoulder issues which are softened by the reduced recoil of the semi-auto shotgun). There are exceptions, of course, but for professional shooters (animal cullers for example), but not too much for the general public.
Despite all these hoops to jump through, more and more people are acquiring their license all the time.
4 - Gun Tracking. Guns can essentially only be sold by Licensed Firearm Sellers. So even if you want to sell it privately, it must be done Through them. They will fill out the paperwork which transfers the gun from you to the new buyer so Weapons Licensing can track the gun. If they work on a gun, they must fill out paperwork letting Weapons Licensing know the gun is now in their possession and not yours.
This is the procedure we must all go through even for a break open .17 airrifle. And there are no restrictions on the number of Cat A and Cat B guns you can own. Just make sure your ammo is stored in a separate locked container. As such "self defense" can never be a valid reason as it does not good as self defense withe everything locked away.
5 - Anecdote: I once lived in a border town - town which straddles the border. As such I had two licenses (one for each state) and yes, I had to sit 2 Safety Courses. So there I am in state one and had not updated my address after I moved. I came home one day to a note from the local police asking me to get in touch with them as a matter of urgency. I called. They told me I had to Immediately bring in my unlicensed guns. Turns out, my license for that state had expired the day before and they found me through my driving license. I gave them my license details from the other state for them to check and get back to me - which they did do and all was well I could keep my guns.
So, there you go....
That is 99% correct except for the wait times for the license to arrive minimum is now 4 months. But the permit to acquire can be done online and be issued within a couple of days. You can apply for you license online now too and scan all your necessary documents in. And you can now apply for your first permit to acquire along with your license at the same time so you can get shooting pretty much straight away.
Quote from: mister on July 28, 2013, 03:22:23 PM
Quote from: Blueknyt on July 28, 2013, 01:59:11 PM
Mister,
That type of Government control is why so many of us here in the states refuse to give up those rights. ".. "self defense" can never be a valid reason " its the most valid reason anyone can have to owning and carrying Firearms.
You know what, no-one here Willingly gave up anything. It was Forced upon us. Members of Parliament who disagreed with it, and whose constituents disagreed, still voted it in. WTF!?
The money used to Buy Back the now illegal guns was obtained via increasing the Medical Tax we all pay.
Yes, you could simply just not hand back such a gun. Take my 10/22 for example of just one of the guns I was coerced into handing over. So, let's say I did not hand it back and somehow my owning the gun was discovered - on way to property to shoot, roadside Random Breath test sees gun case in vehicle and asks to inspect guns and / or on way to property to shoot and guns are in boot but car is involved in a crash which police attend..... The old penalties (under these laws we have) for possessing such a gun were up to $10,000 fine and 2 years in jail. But I believe this has been changed to $20,000 fine and up to 4 years in jail. So.... yeah, keep a gun and risk a large fine and/or jail or be paid for my gun and then use that money to go buy another bolt action to replace it?
Yes the idea this made the Public safer is a load of BS. But we do not have a powerful gun lobby with a million+ members in this country. We don't have one third of the population owning guns. We don't have a Bill of Rights. Things are different here in that regard.I do not condone the restriction, but I am not really effected by it - still can buy a gun of my choosing from those available and shoot it. Just that big brother know the types and number of guns I have and there is nothing I can do about it. So we suck it up and move on.
My comment was not aimed at rubbing you in the raw. far from it. its not just the gun lobby but the people too. hell folks in some states have already rolled petitions to recall some state lawmakers FROM their current office due to their anti gun ideals. And there are enough folks that will gladly go toe to toe and muzzle to muzzle to keep them laws be damned. I would not be suprised at all if this country ends up dukeing it out again like it did so long ago.
Back on topic: the forks are leaking again.
We will determine what is wrong later. Next weekend we will put on a different set of forks.
I have never had a set of rebuilt forks start leaking the next day.
Seals 3 times on right side, twice on the left.
SOMETHING is wrong with the tubes (oval shape?) or the lowers. Whatever. We give up for now.
Next weekend another set goes on from my stash of parts.
If we determine the problem, we will let you know. If we don't, they go into recycling both the upper tubes and lowers.
How about if the gun stuff gets moved to teh gun thread? I would like this to stay on topic.
Yeah addy something is out of wack somewhere addy. And forgive me for stating the obvious but they're obviously not overfilled.
thanks for all your replies guys. i guess the 4th time might be the charm!
Well, I was sure the forks were compressed on my fixture when oil checked - correct Gorilla?
Here's how you can check:
1. Remove handle bars to get at forks
2. Remove fork caps
3. Remove spacer and springs
4. Rope or something - pull up the front wheel so forks are fully compressed
5. Check oil level
6. Put things back together.
nope, we double and triple checked. Everything is right there is something we are not aware of. either the bottom part of the forks are bent/damaged in some way. We were very methodical.
Something has to be out of spec guys either the inner tube, bushes. Has to be.
Quote from: Gorilla on July 29, 2013, 03:40:40 PM
nope, we double and triple checked. Everything is right there is something we are not aware of. either the bottom part of the forks are bent/damaged in some way. We were very methodical.
Are you saying forks were compressed or not compressed when measuring oil? They should be compressed when checking oil.
I thought they were as that's how we got out the spring to check oil level. (compress fork and rotate to catch it on the edge of the bench so it stays up)
yup i remember you showing me how you compreseed the forks on your work bench. I also remember you double checked my work just in case I was doing it right. This morning there was barely ANY residue. MUCH MUCH less then ever but there was still a bit. Hopefully it ends with that. This morning there was no puddle in my garage.