Thought I was getting a deal. By the description it's a bikemaster 520-110 chain. I'm not going to install the chain until I have a rivet-style master link for it.
From what I understand I don't need to send the chain back. I can just find and use a rivet-style master link for it. So my question is this:
Where can I get a master link for a chain like this? Do I have to get a bikemaster branded master link or can I just find one that works? I assume the master link has to be of the same pitch. Is there anything else I need to know?
Thank you!
What's wrong with the clip master link?
Unless you're racing, I can't see how it makes any difference (if properly installed).
We use either on our bikes around here. Never had a problem with clip links. Once in a while you can over press the rivet link and the link is a little stiff. You can't do that with a clip link.
I have to second what Pat said..in fact I prefer them
(http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/tmotorcycle/masterlink.jpg)
I was just suspicious because the haynes manual says in big, bold letters "DO NOT USE A CLIP STYLE MASTER LINK".
After hearing horror stories of people destroying their entire bike I started to get a little nervous.
Looking at this topic:
http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/179439-clip-link-isnt-simpler-better.html
It seems like one guy has a zip tie on his link. Wouldn't this make it less safe?
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 05, 2013, 08:24:23 PM
I was just suspicious because the haynes manual says in big, bold letters "DO NOT USE A CLIP STYLE MASTER LINK".
After hearing horror stories of people destroying their entire bike I started to get a little nervous.
Looking at this topic:
http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/179439-clip-link-isnt-simpler-better.html
It seems like one guy has a zip tie on his link. Wouldn't this make it less safe?
I've never heard of a clip-style master link failing that was installed properly. You have to realize that millions of bikes have used clip-style master links. I'm using one right now. I would think it's much easier to mess up a rivet than to mess up installing the clip.
I only use clip style master links except for the oem continuous chains that came on the GSs. No safety wires needed, put them on right and they don't come off.
http://www.gs500.net/gallery/data/500/GSbrakechainlog.jpg
That's 9 replacement chains on the GSs alone not counting the 4 Hondas I had before that.
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on September 05, 2013, 08:23:26 PM
I have to second what Pat said..in fact I prefer them
(http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/tmotorcycle/masterlink.jpg)
Why do you prefer them over rivet style? (Given I have the rivet tool available to me I'm curious).
Since I clean my chain with a grim buster that wraps around the whole chain, will that affect it at all?
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 05, 2013, 09:08:22 PM
Why do you prefer them over rivet style? (Given I have the rivet tool available to me I'm curious).
I just never felt the need to have to rivet
(<to lazy to buy the tool) but if you have access to a rivet tool and you want to go that route, by all means your not wasting your time, many prefer the security of a rivet :thumb:
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on September 05, 2013, 09:35:04 PM
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 05, 2013, 09:08:22 PM
Why do you prefer them over rivet style? (Given I have the rivet tool available to me I'm curious).
I just never felt the need to have to rivet (<to lazy to buy the tool) but if you have access to a rivet tool and you want to go that route, by all means your not wasting your time, many prefer the security of a rivet :thumb:
Which leads me to the second half of my question -
Can I just get any old 520 rivet master link or does it need to be something special? Also, if I went the clip style link option how exactly should I safety wire it for security? I'm just afraid the safety wire will get in the way/damage the sprocket teeth.
I bought a RK-XSO chain from Chaparral once that came with a rivet type master and found a clip type master at Dennis Kirk for it. Best you get master for your brand chain if you get one, Dennis Kirk had a lot of them, don't know if they have the Bikemaster brand but worth a look.
You sound like a scared little old lady that has been paying too much attention to the scare tactics of the NSA and thinks you are safe if you only carry a clear baggie of stuff to an NFL game. Afraid of your own shadow.
Put on the clip link as per instructions. You will be just fine.
There are enough of us here to attest to their reliability.
Would I ever do anything that might damage one of my babies? I use clip links and rivet links: it all depends on what came with the chain. I don't care which I use.
Quote from: adidasguy on September 05, 2013, 09:47:20 PM
You sound like a scared little old lady that has been paying too much attention to the scare tactics of the NSA and thinks you are safe if you only carry a clear baggie of stuff to an NFL game. Afraid of your own shadow.
Put on the clip link as per instructions. You will be just fine.
There are enough of us here to attest to their reliability.
Would I ever do anything that might damage one of my babies? I use clip links and rivet links: it all depends on what came with the chain. I don't care which I use.
How oddly specific. I guess you're right. If I can't find a master link tomorrow from one of the vendors out here I won't worry about it.
However, I WOULD like to safety wire it somehow if I do put it on. Just for my own piece of mind. I'm not stupid, I'll install it correctly. Is there anything I should worry about regarding the teeth of the sprocket or the rollers/orings being compromised by the safety wire moving around?
Someone who does safety wire it (probably a racer) can answer that.
I don't think anyone worries about it.
I bet it is easier to screw up a rivet - not enough pressure or too much.
i think lightening is more of a concern than a clip link.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Pre-dawn-thunderstorms-mark-opening-salvo-in-stormy-day-222516901.html
EK also do those screw type master links... think its EK anyway... just to throw another crab into the pot! :thumb:
Quote from: adidasguy on September 05, 2013, 10:12:48 PM
Someone who does safety wire it (probably a racer) can answer that.
I don't think anyone worries about it.
I bet it is easier to screw up a rivet - not enough pressure or too much.
i think lightening is more of a concern than a clip link.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Pre-dawn-thunderstorms-mark-opening-salvo-in-stormy-day-222516901.html
Yeah, in that picture I linked to it seems like he just put it in between the rollers and forgot about it.
I was also thinking, I keep hearing the GS500 doesn't have enough ponies anyway to worry about the clip style links being damaged. Why does a higher horsepower bike have the propensity to damage a clip link?
Master clips CAN and DO break.
Those who say they are ok have obviously never had one fail and had to suffer the associated inconveniences.......like me, 250 miles from home on a Sunday night!!
Google "Broken master clip" and get a second opinion :dunno_black:
When this forum had a gallery there was some good pics from an owner whose master clip failed........now sadly gone.
I wouldn't touch them with a shitty stick on the basis if you haven't got one it cant fall out or fail but as ever.........its your bike and your call :thumb:
It took you a while to show up.. Been on vacation?
Everything can break. Google anything "broken ??" and you will get results....
.....even a broken SLEDGE!
...and time for a cat.
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I have had the clip fail on one of my bikes and had the chain wrap itself around the front sprocket so bad it had to be torched off >:( BUT I would still, and do still buy that type for all my bikes as they are quite safe and easy to put on at home with little effort. :dunno_black:
And no offence to anyone but listen to the many on here and not the few :thumb:
Quote from: adidasguy on September 06, 2013, 12:20:09 AM
It took you a while to show up.. Been on vacation?
Everything can break. Google anything "broken ??" and you will get results....
.....even a broken SLEDGE!
...and time for a cat.
Everything can break?
Sure it can but only if you have got something to break in the first place!
If you don't have clip fitted it CANT break and it CANT drop out......does that make sense, can you see the logic?.....probably not
Another case of `Its never happened to me so it wont happen to you`.......sadly, some people will actually believe it :dunno_black:
Quote from: codajastal on September 06, 2013, 12:37:03 AM
I have had the clip fail on one of my bikes and had the chain wrap itself around the front sprocket so bad it had to be torched off >:( BUT I would still, and do still buy that type for all my bikes as they are quite safe and easy to put on at home with little effort. :dunno_black:
And no offence to anyone but listen to the many on here and not the few :thumb:
That's an interesting viewpoint but if circumstances had been slightly different and the now flailing chain had shattered the cases, jammed the back wheel up and sent you flying over bars putting you in hospital for a couple of weeks.........would you still be as keen to use one again?.........Be honest now :D :D :D
And I agree totally that you should listen to the many not the few, and on that basis I suggest the OP tries asking the clip v master question in a few other bike forums and sees what the general consensus is elsewhere :D :D :D
No one ever suggests you skimp on safety critical items like brakes or tyres or take shortcuts fitting them, they would be flamed out of the forum....... so why for the sake of a few £s or $s do people continually advocate and support the opposite when it comes to chains.....it beats me (and makes me laugh too) :dunno_black:
So a badly done/amateur rivet link never fails or causes problems? ... :dunno_black:
Errr.......ANYTHING done badly/amateur on a bike can cause problems. I guess the answer is not to do it badly/amateur in the first place :dunno_black:
If you are asking my advice..........I suggest if someone does not feel competent enough to DIY they take it to someone who they think is :dunno_black:
Quote from: sledge on September 06, 2013, 01:05:48 AM
Quote from: adidasguy on September 06, 2013, 12:20:09 AM
It took you a while to show up.. Been on vacation?
Everything can break. Google anything "broken ??" and you will get results....
.....even a broken SLEDGE!
...and time for a cat.
Everything can break?
Sure it can but only if you have got something to break in the first place!
If you don't have clip fitted it CANT break and it CANT drop out......does that make sense, can you see the logic?.....probably not
Another case of `Its never happened to me so it wont happen to you`.......sadly, some people will actually believe it :dunno_black:
Are you trying to make the case that no rivet style chain has ever broken? Because I find that hard to believe. Yes, chains break. Especially if they're not installed properly, it the tension is wrong, if they're worn out, or not maintained properly. There's nothing inherently "less safe" about master style links.
For crying out loud, I could care less what type of chain people buy, it's not like I feel strongly one way or the other, but enough with the doom and gloom.
The OP asked a question.
He wants input so he can make his choice.
Ultimately what he does is his business and like you I am not going to worry about it in the slightest.
However......everyone seems to be talking about the pros regarding clips and NOT the cons.
He needs the full picture including the highlighting of potential risks and he isn't getting it :dunno_black:
Yeah.....I know people who have ridden on clips for 20 years and not had one snap, I also know people who have smoked 30 a day for 20 years and not developed cancer :D
Not really asking ... Just thinkin it over ..
But to the world at large ... Cos I can have a whack at it just like everyone else!!
And whether the job is done 'just right' or not ... on a rivet/screw/clip link... I've known the rivets and the clips to fail .. Not heard about a screw one yet.. But that's probably just not heard about it...
... Also feel that millions/multitudes of all sorts of links DON'T fail ... Whether because of good maintenance , good quality or just good luck ...
But because 1 fails here and there .. 'It must never be used lest ye burn on the eternal fires of hell' kinda thing? .. Mentioned by some across probably every bike forum on the web ...
... No one comes home and posts .. ' yeah! That clip link stayed on again today!! Totes amazed!! '
Until an incident every so often happens ... Everything stays quiet ... :icon_rolleyes:
I used clip links on various dirt bikes for years and years ... So did everyone I can remember... Maybe some used rivets? :dunno_black: ... Standard check around before riding was ... Tyres, chain inspect and lube if needed, wheels/spokes and other various 'normal' eyeball it and compare items.. Most people also carried spare clips ... Because bashing over a track or through the bush and rocks and sticks etc is pretty rough ... When clips did come loose .. (Don't crow just yet) .. They got inspected and replaced ... Far as I remember it was mostly poor installation or direct impact on something LARGE ... This was common sense ... Dirt bike parts get a hell of a beating sometimes... Chains get removed and replaced a lot for cleaning ...
A few times another part of someones chain got whacked by something nasty and it would break .. Or at least separate on a factory pressed rivet! ... And sometimes there were enough minor tools available to completely remove that one and put a spare clip link in to make it home...
But that's dirt bikes ... Road bikes probably not in rough terrain ... Plus they have more power! ... But how does the power affect the spring clip? The main plate under that is still solid steel like a rivet one! ... More likely its lack of attention and maintenance that makes it fail ... Until the spring clip is loose enough to fall away the rest cannot come apart any more than a rivet one can...
People forget to check any type link on any type of chain and it fails.... Whose fault is that? ... The rider! ...I fail to see how even the most badass turbo whatever bikes' chain master link is anyone else's responsibility?! ..
Anything can break ... Chains get worn and kinked and master links break ... So pay attention to the chain and link...
I'm fairly certain if they were all that evil and unworthy then they would have died out as a product quite awhile ago! ...
Some people have direct stories that actually happened to them ... Once perhaps ... Most of the stories are from 'this guy who was dating this girl who was cousins with this dude who went to a track once and saw this chain break out of the corner of his eye' ...
... Let the games continue I guess ... :icon_rolleyes: :dunno_black:
I'v never had a problem with the clip type joining link....it's cheap,simple,effective.
Since i don't feel like purchasing a rivet kit the next chain replacement will have the screw type joining link.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003CKQCVQ/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3TGC5XRRCX4P2
[attachment deleted by admin]
Its accepted in engineering design that chain joints that feature slip-fit side plates as opposed to press-fit can be up to 30% weaker than the parent chain...........go ahead and google it :dunno_black:
The reason being that there has to be a clearance in the holes between the pins and the side plate to enable the plate to be put into postion. This clearance allows movement and causes the pins to flex and separate from each other by a slight amount each time the chain is put under tension and over a period of time this unwanted movement can lead to failure of the pin joint or of the fixed side plate if the chain is overloaded.
Ever seen a cam chain with a clip link??? :D
So...........lets say you go out and buy yourself a a nice new length of shiny 520 Renthal R1 that has a quoted tensile strength of 7644 lb/ft and fit a clip link instead of a master. Yeah its quick and easy but the trade off is that in effect you are lowering that figure by up to 30% and bringing the tensile strength down to as low as 5351 ib/ft.
.........and I am being told clip links are safe, reliable and don't offer any compromises...............................oh my ribs!!
You'd best get your sandwich board out then and walk the streets of the world to have them banned eh! ...
.. And what is the amount of lb/ft that the most powerful bike that might use the 520 R1 chain can place on the chain? ... :dunno_black:
You keep on saying you don't care what people use ... But you keep on about it? .. :confused:
It's been a long time since I had a clip type link that had a slip fit side plate, 25-30 years ago they were quite a loose fit but all of the 9 replacement chains over the 14 years I've had the GSs have had a press fit of the sideplate on the pins. Ten years ago I pressed them on with channel lock type pliers but on the last 2 or 3 I've had to press them on using a c-clamp. Not sure whether that was due to tighter fits or due to deterioration of my once powerful hands. :icon_lol:
It would be easier for you to just give yourself the peace of mind and buy a 520 rivet link, than to cause yourself the mental anguish of sifting through all the "first hand" stories on this forum.
I trust the engineers who put them on bikes more than a bunch of dried up forum members, and if you were racing, tech would require the rivet anyways would they not?
Install the clip type while you wait for the rivet link, it's not exactly difficult to replace haha.
sorry for the honesty :thumb:
Must be a tighter fit Jack!! ... Surely your hands can still wrinkle steel plate!! ;) :thumb:
Quote from: jboogie13 on September 06, 2013, 05:21:07 AM
than to cause yourself the mental anguish of sifting through all the "first hand" stories on this forum.
I trust the engineers who put them on bikes more than a bunch of dried up forum members
So your bike is totally OEM and completely un-modified? .. Them engineers being so cluey and all?
I don't dispute the engineers wisdom ... Just possibly the selective thinking ... If you have changed to a different oil or tyres or brakes or suspension or battery or lights or exhaust .. Etc etc :confused:
Quote from: Janx101 on September 06, 2013, 04:52:36 AM
You'd best get your sandwich board out then and walk the streets of the world to have them banned eh! ...
.. And what is the amount of lb/ft that the most powerful bike that might use the 520 R1 chain can place on the chain? ... :dunno_black:
You keep on saying you don't care what people use ... But you keep on about it? .. :confused:
I don't know the answer to your question, and I am not clever enough to work it out. What is a factor though is the margins the designers build in. If they overate the chain capacity and specify say 10% more tensile strength than is actually needed, then the owner puts a clip link in and de-rates it by 30% the chain will be now be 20% below what is needed at max that will be a problem. Perhaps this is why Suzuki themselves say in the handbook
ALAWYS use an endless chain ...... is anyone here qualified to say otherwise??
As for not caring about how people join chains I don't, anyone with real experience knows the risks. I had one break years ago, it caused me a great deal of trouble and a lot of cost, fortunately I wasn't injured but easily could have been, I DONT want the same thing to happen to someone else, especially when the costs involved to totally remove the risk are very low. I can accept the fact that people have never had problems themselves but I am not going to let people tell me and others they are reliable when my own experience and engineering background says the polar opposite.
Something I do care about though are the one sided answers and the misleading information and sometimes sheer ignorance that gets displayed in here and the fact that people who don't know better and don't stop to question things blindly accept it time after time and may well go on to needlessly suffer as a result.
Lets go right back to the start of this thread. The OP had done his research and already had his mind made up over his choice of joint yet others jumped in insisted they knew better based not on facts but on their own hit and miss personal experiences and convinced him to do something else!!
So why do people do that?? :dunno_black:
OH oh! I have an experience to share!
... I have also had a clip master link fail... It was on an older moped in which I had installed the chain myself... rode it for months and about 1500 miles (a lot for a moped in a few months!)... I had to work on the throttle one day. I got that fixed up, and took her around the block to see how she ran. Coming up on a stop sign and I began to engine brake when the chain just came off, wrapped around the rear axle, locked the rear tire, and whipped me in the leg. I kept her upright although I was only going 15mph anyway.. but have a nice scar on my leg from the chain hitting me... don't want to think about having been going faster, or on a bigger bike, with a bigger chain, etc...
FWIW, and even though I have my own clip link story... I do believe they are a rare occurrence, and most likely to fail from improper install... most folks do probably use them forever and never have an issue...
But, as a rider I know there are so many things out there that can bring us to the pavement... I don't want it to be from anything I could have prevented, and especially something as simple as a chain. So those of you who believe that any extra bit of visibility, or noise, or condition, or gadget will remove an extra 1/100,000 chance of going down... this is another one of those things (even if you don't think like that!)... don't waste your chances on a clip style master link, and get one that's more secure without the horror stories... as if its 'that' much more expensive or time consuming to go any other route :cookoo:
- Bboy
Ah well ... If the OP has already made up his mind then he is one of the 'saved' ... So cool ...
..... 'Specify say 10%' ?? ... So it's unknown how much they put in as a margin... And a bit inaccurate engineering wise ..
It could be 100% ?! ... 50% ... Any % ... It could be to cover their collective ass insurance wise cos insurance claims have a habit of breeding...
Despite asking all these questions ... I reckon I'll go with a screw type anyway ... Since 'they new and hip and cool' ... And possibly best of both worlds.... Strong yet removable ... Win!
Quote from: Janx101 on September 06, 2013, 05:30:10 AM
Quote from: jboogie13 on September 06, 2013, 05:21:07 AM
than to cause yourself the mental anguish of sifting through all the "first hand" stories on this forum.
I trust the engineers who put them on bikes more than a bunch of dried up forum members
So your bike is totally OEM and completely un-modified? .. Them engineers being so cluey and all?
I don't dispute the engineers wisdom ... Just possibly the selective thinking ... If you have changed to a different oil or tyres or brakes or suspension or battery or lights or exhaust .. Etc etc :confused:
Actually, it is. I believe you yourself have posted in my thread about it.
Some things that commonly get changed are done so with proven improvements, I.e Jetting. But this is something that varied in every country due to emissions restrictions etc.
The subject at hand however is a very gray area, with no definitive conclusions; simply the same arguments presented for either option every time the subject is mentioned.
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 05, 2013, 07:19:00 PM
Thought I was getting a deal. By the description it's a bikemaster 520-110 chain. I'm not going to install the chain until I have a rivet-style master link for it.
From what I understand I don't need to send the chain back. I can just find and use a rivet-style master link for it. So my question is this:
Where can I get a master link for a chain like this? Do I have to get a bikemaster branded master link or can I just find one that works? I assume the master link has to be of the same pitch. Is there anything else I need to know?
Thank you!
I have used both ... I am not particularly impressed by rivet/bolt type. This one I have got has threatened to come loose a few times. There is nothing you can do as added insurance.
I also have had a clip style come loose, but you actually can put thin guage wire tie wire and keep it more secure. However I can easily see a situation where the wire and the clip come loose in minutes of each other and you never notice.
Which is why ... I HATE CHAINS. On a cheapo commuter bike ... that is one very very quick way to screw the beginers who buy it and shaft them over and over and over again ...
Idiot suzuki put a belt in the savage ... made in 1986.
So the technology was there, and on the GS they put a chain. Idiots is all I can say.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on September 06, 2013, 07:48:27 AMI have used both ... I am not particularly impressed by rivet/bolt type.
With the bolt style master link, I would have to use red Loctite. It's not a positive locking mechanism, but it'll sure help the nut hold.
Quote from: RossLH on September 06, 2013, 08:52:09 AM
Quote from: The Buddha on September 06, 2013, 07:48:27 AMI have used both ... I am not particularly impressed by rivet/bolt type.
With the bolt style master link, I would have to use red Loctite. It's not a positive locking mechanism, but it'll sure help the nut hold.
Or a tiny little pinch on the nut prior to installation.
Quote from: jboogie13 on September 06, 2013, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: RossLH on September 06, 2013, 08:52:09 AM
Quote from: The Buddha on September 06, 2013, 07:48:27 AMI have used both ... I am not particularly impressed by rivet/bolt type.
With the bolt style master link, I would have to use red Loctite. It's not a positive locking mechanism, but it'll sure help the nut hold.
Or a tiny little pinch on the nut prior to installation.
The nut isn't even required to be on there AFAIK. Its press on. Nut is the install tool. The bolt may even break away, its necked past the threads.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Janx101 on September 06, 2013, 06:28:00 AM
Despite asking all these questions ... I reckon I'll go with a screw type anyway ... Since 'they new and hip and cool' ... And possibly best of both worlds.... Strong yet removable ... Win!
Removable??
Are you sure about that?
Like I said earlier......some people just haven't got a clue what it is they are talking about :dunno_black:
Quote from: The Buddha on September 06, 2013, 09:50:12 AMThe nut isn't even required to be on there AFAIK. Its press on. Nut is the install tool. The bolt may even break away, its necked past the threads.
Cool.
Buddha.
Interesting. I suppose I misunderstood the use of the nut. Did a little more reading, the nut actually gets removed after tightening, and the threads broken off. You say such a thing has come loose in your experience?
Quote from: codajastal on September 06, 2013, 12:37:03 AM
I have had the clip fail on one of my bikes and had the chain wrap itself around the front sprocket so bad it had to be torched off >:( BUT I would still, and do still buy that type for all my bikes as they are quite safe and easy to put on at home with little effort. :dunno_black:
And no offence to anyone but listen to the many on here and not the few :thumb:
Are you sure the clip failed? We know chains can break anywhere. A rock or bit of shrapnel between the chain and sprocket could do some serious damage.
So did you actually confirm that after you removed the chain the master link was not there?
Now, now :nono:. There is no need to sh1tstir just because they disagrees with you. There are two sides to every story, he is just giving the other. Nothing he has posted has been untrue. I hate how these treads seem to descend into little squabbles lately.
Yep. Cats are what we need.
More cats.
Cats.
More cats.
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Quote from: adidasguy on September 06, 2013, 11:13:42 AM
Quote from: codajastal on September 06, 2013, 12:37:03 AM
I have had the clip fail on one of my bikes and had the chain wrap itself around the front sprocket so bad it had to be torched off >:( BUT I would still, and do still buy that type for all my bikes as they are quite safe and easy to put on at home with little effort. :dunno_black:
And no offence to anyone but listen to the many on here and not the few :thumb:
Are you sure the clip failed? We know chains can break anywhere. A rock or bit of shrapnel between the chain and sprocket could do some serious damage.
So did you actually confirm that after you removed the chain the master link was not there?
Yes it was the master link that failed. I had to get my mechanic to remove it and confirmed it was the link as there were still half of it attached to the chain
Quote from: sledge on September 06, 2013, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Janx101 on September 06, 2013, 06:28:00 AM
Despite asking all these questions ... I reckon I'll go with a screw type anyway ... Since 'they new and hip and cool' ... And possibly best of both worlds.... Strong yet removable ... Win!
Removable??
Are you sure about that?
Like I said earlier......some people just haven't got a clue what it is they are talking about :dunno_black:
woops :icon_rolleyes: :oops: .. ok fair enough.... my perception of them was like Ross .. thought they were... ive always said on this forum that i'm happy enough to be told i'm wrong ... politely.... the smugness makes it a little rough but fair call... and so long as you still mean some people as a general thing .. and not being a smug and clever ass and just pointing out me!
i cant be arsed clicking back to find an earlier question and answer either... but ... ok ... we dont know how much force in lb/ft a big power bike puts on a chain.... fair enough... most folks around here are focussed on the GS500 .. so do we know how much force a GS500 puts on a chain? ... i havent read through the manual totally.. i reference pages of it for what i need at the time...
... so .. Mr Engineer .. im genuinely .... confusticated ... you mention the breaking strength of the 520 R1 chain as 7k something lb/ft .. and yeah ok if the links reduce that by a nominated and defined percentage .. then that figure drops to 5k something lb/ft ... i didnt do the math but sounds reasonable and about where it should be ... but .... quoting some referenced figures and mentioning elsewhere the engineering background ... still does not a proven case make!! ...
i have in the past had mates who did engineering .. one a Civil, one Electrical and a couple Mechanical ... with their chosen focus in local government or mining specifics to help get them work... if i ask the Civil a question about hydrodynamic forces behind a retaining wall and what drainage needs to be applied then he is all over it... if i ask about the tensile strength of a car frame repair... he doesnt know to start with .. but can work it out using general engineering principles... and his super duper (way too many buttons!) calculator ...
similarly ... my business moved a doctors house the other week... i dropped in to see how things were going and say hello to the customer... said to her in conversation "dont worry i wont ask you about a hangnail or anything .. but .. how many people ask you about health problems when you not at work? .. itd have to be a annoyance" .. her reply was ... "i have no idea, i'm a doctor of philosophy and my thesis was on abuse of power in the clergy" .. which was funny as it just showed what a title can do for perceptions ...
which brings me to....
what type of Engineer? ... i cant remember reading which one .. but i cant remember a lot of stuff... like commenting on Jboogies stock bike ... (I dont dispute that i did though... i'll have to look it up again) ... Engineers generally are pretty cluey .. no dispute there either... a Mechanical Engineer though, still specialises or focuses on a narrower subfield after qualification (i think?) ..
here we have a chain problem... so asking the bloke who has worked with motor vehicle design is likely to be better than asking the bloke who worked with aircraft tech or biomechanics ..
it seems like its likely vehicle related ... knowing to reference lb/ft tensile strengths of chains... and their subsequent reductions of strength by inferior methods... but then ..
Quote from: sledge on September 06, 2013, 06:05:30 AM.... and I am not clever enough to work it out. What is a factor though is the margins the designers build in. If they overate the chain capacity and specify say 10% ... .... ... ...... is anyone here qualified to say otherwise?? ......
... ...... ......
.... especially when the costs involved to totally remove the risk are very low. I can accept the fact that people have never had problems themselves but I am not going to let people tell me and others they are reliable when my own experience and engineering background says the polar opposite.
.. do not inspire me to take it as read that the lb/ft figures are
anything more than a reference... and totally??? .. so thats a vote for rivet links being 100% failsafe then?!
....
i'm being a personal & picky biatch i know... i might get into trouble with the authorities around these parts... just... ive run across (in my non university educated life) those that spray qualified figures around to be held in high regard... i get interested in a concept they mention and want to ask more... then the helpful and qualified info stops ... because their particular branch of whatever is actually elsewhere but being a "xyz" means they have to be better people .. right?
i do genuinely love picking the brains of "degree'd" people .. to get things ive 'always wondered about' partly/better explained... i love it even more when they can start with the facts .. and back them up with the 'workings out' and end result.
sheesh .. now i sound like a fuel thread ... so .... doesnt bother me if the rest of the data arrives or not really ... just bothers me if its started and couldnt be finished because it was a 'throw away line' to be clever!
:icon_question: :icon_question: :icon_question:
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Man, adidas is on a cat rampage.
Just to clear some things up with the maths involved... The GS produces around 30 ft-lb of torque (according to wikipedia and other sources). We'll assume first gear, since it's the highest ratio (16.29:1). So, using the primary reduction ratio (2.714:1) and first gear (16.29:1) we get a final torque multiplication of about 44 (2.714*16.29 = 44.211). This gives us a final torque of around 1326 ft-lb (44.211*30 = 1326.33). The rear sprocket diameter is around 2.5" on a 15T (yes, I measured :D), so the radius is 1.25", or .10416 ft. Using this, we can calculate a force of around 12,734 lb of tension force acting on the chain (1326.33/.10416 = 12,733.583). That's quite a bit of force. RK X-ring chains are rated at around 8,500 lb/ft of tensile strength (http://www.amazon.com/RK-Racing-Chain-520XSO-110-Connecting/dp/B004XAXD02). The length of the chain from center-to-center of the sprockets is about 28 inches (I measured from the sprocket cover...), so we'll just say 2 ft. That means that the chain can withstand a force of 19,000 lbs of tensile force (8500*2 = 19,000). Assuming a general safety factor of around 2, the chain could withstand 28,000 lbs of force before actually failing. Even if you reduce that by 30%, that's still 19,600 lbs, or 13,300 lbs using the quoted strength. So, the bike can produce about 95% of the force required to break the chain at its rated strength, with no losses, if there were no safety factor, and assuming a 30% strength reduction due to a clip link.
Yay, maths! :cheers:
Edit: I made a slight error. :oops: As pointed out by John, chain tensile strength is force per unit WIDTH, not length. So, the chain will actually only be able to withstand about 703 lb of force (8500*(1/12) = 703.33). This is SIGNIFICANTLY less than the initial calculation. Apologies for the error.
Interesting math.....but what about the reduction rules?
"The rule of thumb for roller chain operating on a continuous drive is for the chain load to not exceed a mere 1/6 or 1/9 of the chain's tensile strength, depending on the type of master links used (press-fit vs. slip-fit)[citation needed]. Roller chains operating on a continuous drive beyond these thresholds can and typically do fail prematurely via linkplate fatigue failure."
From here.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_chain
Quote from: JAS6377 on September 06, 2013, 09:01:59 PM
Just to clear some things up with the maths involved... The GS produces around 30 ft-lb of torque (according to wikipedia and other sources). We'll assume first gear, since it's the highest ratio (16.29:1). So, using the primary reduction ratio (2.714:1) and first gear (16.29:1) we get a final torque multiplication of about 44 (2.714*16.29 = 44.211). This gives us a final torque of around 1326 ft-lb (44.211*30 = 1326.33). The rear sprocket diameter is around 2.5" on a 15T (yes, I measured :D), so the radius is 1.25", or .10416 ft. Using this, we can calculate a force of around 12,734 lb of tension force acting on the chain (1326.33/.10416 = 12,733.583). That's quite a bit of force. RK X-ring chains are rated at around 8,500 lb/ft of tensile strength (http://www.amazon.com/RK-Racing-Chain-520XSO-110-Connecting/dp/B004XAXD02). The length of the chain from center-to-center of the sprockets is about 28 inches (I measured from the sprocket cover...), so we'll just say 2 ft. That means that the chain can withstand a force of 19,000 lbs of tensile force (8500*2 = 19,000). Assuming a general safety factor of around 2, the chain could withstand 28,000 lbs of force before actually failing. Even if you reduce that by 30%, that's still 19,600 lbs, or 13,300 lbs using the quoted strength. So, the bike can produce about 95% of the force required to break the chain at its rated strength, with no losses, if there were no safety factor, and assuming a 30% strength reduction due to a clip link.
Yay, maths! :cheers:
Smartass :flipoff: :cheers:
Quote from: JAS6377 on September 06, 2013, 09:01:59 PM
Just to clear some things up with the maths involved... The GS produces around 30 ft-lb of torque (according to wikipedia and other sources). We'll assume first gear, since it's the highest ratio (16.29:1). So, using the primary reduction ratio (2.714:1) and first gear (16.29:1) we get a final torque multiplication of about 44 (2.714*16.29 = 44.211). This gives us a final torque of around 1326 ft-lb (44.211*30 = 1326.33). The rear sprocket diameter is around 2.5" on a 15T (yes, I measured :D), so the radius is 1.25", or .10416 ft. Using this, we can calculate a force of around 12,734 lb of tension force acting on the chain (1326.33/.10416 = 12,733.583). That's quite a bit of force. RK X-ring chains are rated at around 8,500 lb/ft of tensile strength (http://www.amazon.com/RK-Racing-Chain-520XSO-110-Connecting/dp/B004XAXD02). The length of the chain from center-to-center of the sprockets is about 28 inches (I measured from the sprocket cover...), so we'll just say 2 ft. That means that the chain can withstand a force of 19,000 lbs of tensile force (8500*2 = 19,000). Assuming a general safety factor of around 2, the chain could withstand 28,000 lbs of force before actually failing. Even if you reduce that by 30%, that's still 19,600 lbs, or 13,300 lbs using the quoted strength. So, the bike can produce about 95% of the force required to break the chain at its rated strength, with no losses, if there were no safety factor, and assuming a 30% strength reduction due to a clip link.
Yay, maths! :cheers:
I've never seen tensile strength listed as a function of length. A 1 foot chain is just as strong as a 2 foot chain So I don't quite understand that figure.
Quote from: sledge on September 06, 2013, 09:59:28 PM
Interesting math.....but what about the reduction rules?
"The rule of thumb for roller chain operating on a continuous drive is for the chain load to not exceed a mere 1/6 or 1/9 of the chain's tensile strength, depending on the type of master links used (press-fit vs. slip-fit)[citation needed]. Roller chains operating on a continuous drive beyond these thresholds can and typically do fail prematurely via linkplate fatigue failure."
From here.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_chain
I completely forgot about that. So, for continuous drive situations, divide that figure by 6 or 9, depending on the link type. Good catch.
Quote from: 007brendan on September 07, 2013, 12:30:57 AM
I've never seen tensile strength listed as a function of length. A 1 foot chain is just as strong as a 2 foot chain So I don't quite understand that figure.
Neither have I. I've always seen it as force per length^2. It confused me at first, but I think it has to do with the fact that as you add more links, you add more surface area over which the force can be spread. But even that doesn't make sense, as one link will transfer the same force to the next link... But even the RK website has it listed as a function of length... I'll look into it more.
Edit: It's actually force per unit WIDTH.
"For some non-homogeneous materials (or for assembled components) it can be reported just as a force or as a force per unit width" ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength). So, that actually means that the chain's tensile strength is WAY lower than I initially calculated. I'll fix that.
Quote from: JAS6377 on September 07, 2013, 06:14:42 AM
Quote from: sledge on September 06, 2013, 09:59:28 PM
Interesting math.....but what about the reduction rules?
"The rule of thumb for roller chain operating on a continuous drive is for the chain load to not exceed a mere 1/6 or 1/9 of the chain's tensile strength, depending on the type of master links used (press-fit vs. slip-fit)[citation needed]. Roller chains operating on a continuous drive beyond these thresholds can and typically do fail prematurely via linkplate fatigue failure."
From here.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_chain
I completely forgot about that. So, for continuous drive situations, divide that figure by 6 or 9, depending on the link type. Good catch.
Quote from: 007brendan on September 07, 2013, 12:30:57 AM
I've never seen tensile strength listed as a function of length. A 1 foot chain is just as strong as a 2 foot chain So I don't quite understand that figure.
Neither have I. I've always seen it as force per length^2. It confused me at first, but I think it has to do with the fact that as you add more links, you add more surface area over which the force can be spread. But even that doesn't make sense, as one link will transfer the same force to the next link... But even the RK website has it listed as a function of length... I'll look into it more.
Edit: It's actually force per unit WIDTH.
"For some non-homogeneous materials (or for assembled components) it can be reported just as a force or as a force per unit width" ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength). So, that actually means that the chain's tensile strength is WAY lower than I initially calculated. I'll fix that.
You lost me after "Neither have I. I've always seen it as blah blah blah blah" :icon_confused: :icon_question: :icon_eek:
Quote from: JAS6377 on September 07, 2013, 06:14:42 AM
Quote from: sledge on September 06, 2013, 09:59:28 PM
Interesting math.....but what about the reduction rules?
"The rule of thumb for roller chain operating on a continuous drive is for the chain load to not exceed a mere 1/6 or 1/9 of the chain's tensile strength, depending on the type of master links used (press-fit vs. slip-fit)[citation needed]. Roller chains operating on a continuous drive beyond these thresholds can and typically do fail prematurely via linkplate fatigue failure."
From here.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_chain
I completely forgot about that. So, for continuous drive situations, divide that figure by 6 or 9, depending on the link type. Good catch.
So.............can I assume you agree with and will reinforce my earlier statement that slip fit links are in fact up to 30% weaker then press fit links and therefore less reliable in when compared in identical applications?
Looks like my work here is done :D :D :D
Quote from: sledge on September 07, 2013, 06:47:06 AM
So.............can I assume you agree with and will reinforce my earlier statement that slip fit links are in fact up to 30% weaker then press fit links and therefore less reliable in when compared in identical applications?
Looks like my work here is done :D :D :D
I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, really. I just figured some hard numbers would allow us to see exactly what's going on under our butts. After doing the calculations, though, yes. It is a little disconcerting seeing something being used that isn't really rated for what it's supposed to be. However, you never really hit full torque for continuous periods, so those reduction rates play a little bit less of a role.
In any event, the numbers are there so that we can make an informed decision about what kind of chain to get.
So what does slip fit side plates on master links have to do with motorcycle applications now anyway? Any chains I've bought in recent years have had a heavy press fit on the clip type link side plates. Been a couple decades since I've seen a slip fit on a mc chain clip type master link but I do buy name brand quality chains, maybe there is some old stock or super cheapo brands some are using that have the old slip fit plates?
Too much lawyer engineering here I think, when a chain fails because the link was not installed properly they sue the motorcycle maker since they have more money than the mechanic that put it on wrong. Get ready to fasten your seat belts riders. :icon_lol:
i've broken a master link (clip style) and thrown the chain at interstate speeds once.
how/why:
chain was left too loose, and (i guess) it slapped the chain guide just right a few times, wearing/breaking the clip, then ejecting the side plate, and finally the rest of the master link. plain and simple chain tension neglect.
i'll still use them, they're great for changing wheels and gear ratios twice a week for different types of rides:
tough woods on sunday, then commute/gymkhana the rest of the week.
as much as i like rivet style links, they're just not reasonable for how often i change chain, cogs, and wheels.
the dirt-only chain is downstairs soaking in a zip lock bag of kerosine / engine oil to loosen up all the dirt. works great. :)
I had no idea I'd start a thread like this! You'd think I mentioned oil.
Anyway, installed the new chain today. Fit the clip style link on there. Went on pretty easy, had to use some pliers to push it enough to get the clip "recesses" to show. Other than that, pretty simple. Made sure to install it the correct way (closed side facing direction of travel).
I'm going to probably order a rivet style link to put on next weekend if time allows because I'll be changing the front wheel out anyway. I think I need the piece of mind even though I maintain my chains well. The clip style ~seems~ pretty strongly on there. The circlip holding the front sprocket on worries me more than the clip itself. Not that the circlip isn't installed correctly or anything. I got a very positive snap into place when the circlip seated itself. Even yanked on the front sprocket a couple times to make sure. But the fact a front sprocket isn't held on by a loctite'd nut is...interesting.
Thanks for everyone's feedback. This has been an interesting read. Keep it going. The math is particularly interesting.
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 07, 2013, 06:15:30 PM
I had no idea I'd start a thread like this! You'd think I mentioned oil.
Anyway, installed the new chain today. Fit the clip style link on there. Went on pretty easy, had to use some pliers to push it enough to get the clip "recesses" to show. Other than that, pretty simple. Made sure to install it the correct way (closed side facing direction of travel).
I'm going to probably order a rivet style link to put on next weekend if time allows because I'll be changing the front wheel out anyway. I think I need the piece of mind even though I maintain my chains well. The clip style ~seems~ pretty strongly on there. The circlip holding the front sprocket on worries me more than the clip itself. Not that the circlip isn't installed correctly or anything. I got a very positive snap into place when the circlip seated itself. Even yanked on the front sprocket a couple times to make sure. But the fact a front sprocket isn't held on by a loctite'd nut is...interesting.
Thanks for everyone's feedback. This has been an interesting read. Keep it going. The math is particularly interesting.
You'll need a chain press tool to install a rivet master. I have one from MotionPro. It works pretty well, but a couple of pieces have needed replaced, mostly due to user error. Here is a link to the tool: http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/partno/08-0467/ (http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/partno/08-0467/)
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 07, 2013, 06:15:30 PM
The circlip holding the front sprocket on worries me more than the clip itself. Not that the circlip isn't installed correctly or anything. I got a very positive snap into place when the circlip seated itself. Even yanked on the front sprocket a couple times to make sure. But the fact a front sprocket isn't held on by a loctite'd nut is...interesting.
Just make sure you put some kind of lube on the shaft/splines for the CSS, I have seen photos here of a CSS covered with rust from the splines being dry (disintegrating) ...and somebody posted recently about buying a used bike with the CSS
welded on. Lube it or lose it :cheers:
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on September 07, 2013, 06:43:30 PM
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 07, 2013, 06:15:30 PM
The circlip holding the front sprocket on worries me more than the clip itself. Not that the circlip isn't installed correctly or anything. I got a very positive snap into place when the circlip seated itself. Even yanked on the front sprocket a couple times to make sure. But the fact a front sprocket isn't held on by a loctite'd nut is...interesting.
Just make sure you put some kind of lube on the shaft/splines for the CSS, I have seen photos here of a CSS covered with rust from the splines being dry (disintegrating) ...and somebody posted recently about buying a used bike with the CSS welded on. Lube it or lose it :cheers:
CSS? Sorry, never heard the term.
CSS= Counter Shaft Sprocket, or front sprocket :cheers: