Got an used alternator rotor and it seems different only on the magnet length (starter clutch works fine), does this matter ? Need help fast because i need to return it in case it's not appropiate:
Left: Used and working (model unknown, chrome engine)
Right: Mine, broken (model 2004 gs500F)
(http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/838/mwko.jpg)
Thanks in advance and sorry my mediocre engrish
Return it, its not from a GS500E, least not the `89 onwards GS500E.
THIS GS500E did have a chrome engine though, maybe its from one of them :icon_question:.......Are there any part numbers on it?
(http://www.suzukicycles.org/photos/GS/GS500E/1980_GS500E_blue_800.jpg) :dunno_black:
If you are swapping flywheels I suggest you lap the tapers together to make sure they seat correctly.......but that's up to you :D
Looking at you past posts, the epoxy on the ends of the magnets is not important and often some of it falls off.
If the 3 bolts holding the starter to the assembly came loose, you can replace those bolts and you are good to ride again. Once in a while they have come loose.
It is possible that the magnets changed length slightly or there is a different amount of epoxy on the ends of them. The assembly is the same from 1989 to the present. I would not be surprised with a slight difference in the length of the magnets, as they would have come from different factories over the years.
The critical dimension is the inside diameter. That makes the clearance between the magnets and the stator.
The older GS500 was called a GS500E (pre-1989) and that causes confusion. You can check the part number of what you bought, if a part number was given, or the year of the bike it came from. 1989 to today is the same part. If before 1989, it is the wrong part.
From the photo it looks OK to me. When you say the engine was chrome, was it shiny chrome or silver paint? Chrome would not be the right engine. Our engines were black or silver paint (as your 2004 is silver paint).
You should hone the surfaces of the tapered shaft and inside of the assembly before re-assembling them. I talk about it in my video.
Quote from: adidasguy on September 17, 2013, 11:32:50 AM
Looking at you past posts, the epoxy on the ends of the magnets is not important and often some of it falls off.
If the 3 bolts holding the starter to the assembly came loose, you can replace those bolts and you are good to ride again. Once in a while they have come loose.
It is possible that the magnets changed length slightly or there is a different amount of epoxy on the ends of them. The assembly is the same from 1989 to the present. I would not be surprised with a slight difference in the length of the magnets, as they would have come from different factories over the years.
The critical dimension is the inside diameter. That makes the clearance between the magnets and the stator.
The older GS500 was called a GS500E (pre-1989) and that causes confusion. You can check the part number of what you bought, if a part number was given, or the year of the bike it came from. 1989 to today is the same part. If before 1989, it is the wrong part.
From the photo it looks OK to me. When you say the engine was chrome, was it shiny chrome or silver paint? Chrome would not be the right engine. Our engines were black or silver paint (as your 2004 is silver paint).
You should hone the surfaces of the tapered shaft and inside of the assembly before re-assembling them. I talk about it in my video.
The engine of the used bike and where this part came from is silver yes, I don't know when they started putting silver engines on them. As i said, evertyhing is identical to my eyes except for the magnet's length and a number of ¿ borings/bores ? on the magnet housing ( balancing ? ). My starter gear fits perfectly on the clutch and the clutch works as it should (starter gear turns to one side, stops to the other). The shop where i bought these parts looked serious.
The bolts came loose, yes, but... this happened :icon_mrgreen: :
(http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/9879/7mud.jpg)
(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/668/c4aj.jpg)
I was planning first getting out the broken bolts and then tapping the threads, then putting new and bigger bolts there.
Should i do that, or should i install the used part i just bought ?
Quote from: adidasguy on September 17, 2013, 11:32:50 AM
I would not be surprised with a slight difference in the length of the magnets, as they would have come from different factories over the years
I would....The length of the magnet is generally the same length as the corresponding alternator pole-pieces :dunno_black:
Quote from: sledge on September 17, 2013, 12:55:27 PM
Quote from: adidasguy on September 17, 2013, 11:32:50 AM
I would not be surprised with a slight difference in the length of the magnets, as they would have come from different factories over the years
I would....The length of the magnet is generally the same length as the corresponding alternator pole-pieces :dunno_black:
Yep... i measured those and their length is approximately that of the magnets on my rotor, but the used rotor's magnets are +5mm longer...
Quote from: Mach on September 17, 2013, 12:52:37 PM
or should i install the used part i just bought ?
There is two answers to that question :dunno_black:
Forgive me for being pragmatic but some people will say yes....it will be ok, even though they are guessing and some will say no dont.
Personally I wouldn't on the basis there is some obvious visual differences between the two and therefore a degree of uncertainty as to its suitability......but its your bike time and money and ultimately your call :thumb:
Quote from: Mach on September 17, 2013, 01:01:18 PM
Yep... i measured those and their length is approximately that of the magnets on my rotor, but the used rotor's magnets are +5mm longer...
Which suggests its designed to be used with an alternator that's physically longer than the one on your bike :dunno_black:
Do you guys see viable the repair tapping the threads to bigger ones and putting bigger bolts ?
No.
If slightly off center, the rotor will strike the stator and cause lots of damage. The clearance between the stator and the magnets is very close.
Difficult to say :dunno_black: we don't know how damaged the part is and what your skills and abilities are.
How about drilling through the two halves 180 deg apart, then pinning them together with roll pins. This will ensure they stay concentric. Then drill and tap 3 fresh holes at the original size rather than trying to reclaim the old ones.
Dunno.....just thinking :dunno_black:
Quote from: adidasguy on September 17, 2013, 01:34:53 PM
No.
If slightly off center, the rotor will strike the stator and cause lots of damage. The clearance between the stator and the magnets is very close.
What would cause the rotor to go out of it's center axis ? I don't see any relationship between the threads of the starter clutch bolts and the central axis of the rotor.
Quote from: Mach on September 17, 2013, 01:59:20 PM
Quote from: adidasguy on September 17, 2013, 01:34:53 PM
No.
If slightly off center, the rotor will strike the stator and cause lots of damage. The clearance between the stator and the magnets is very close.
What would cause the rotor to go out of it's center axis ? I don't see any relationship between the threads of the starter clutch bolts and the central axis of the rotor.
True. I forgot the starter gear bolts to the rotor and the rotor is on the crank, not the other way around.
A slight off center of the starter gear would be harmless. It doesn't rotate when the engine is running. (and slight I mean it would be almost nothing as the starter gear would center itself on the crank, just the clutch half bolts to the rotor and there would be room for play there since it is a loose clutch thingy.)
Quote from: adidasguy on September 17, 2013, 04:50:01 PM
Quote from: Mach on September 17, 2013, 01:59:20 PM
Quote from: adidasguy on September 17, 2013, 01:34:53 PM
No.
If slightly off center, the rotor will strike the stator and cause lots of damage. The clearance between the stator and the magnets is very close.
What would cause the rotor to go out of it's center axis ? I don't see any relationship between the threads of the starter clutch bolts and the central axis of the rotor.
True. I forgot the starter gear bolts to the rotor and the rotor is on the crank, not the other way around.
A slight off center of the starter gear would be harmless. It doesn't rotate when the engine is running. (and slight I mean it would be almost nothing as the starter gear would center itself on the crank, just the clutch half bolts to the rotor and there would be room for play there since it is a loose clutch thingy.)
I made around 6000km to my bike with only one bolt holding the clutch to the rotor with the other two sawed off and their heads banging, eating the threads, and the bike failed on start-up only two times :icon_mrgreen:, that's why i thought an improvised repair based on thread tapping would be harmless. I work on a factory where there are several drill presses and lot of tools, i lack knowledge on that territory but sure my fellow co-workers will lend me a hand on this.
Go for it :thumb:
You cant make it any worse.
Hi guys, it's done !
- Got the broken bolts out, one of them with an awl/pricker/bradawl? and a hammer, the last one drilled on a drill press
- Tapped the threads to the same metric (they weren't very damaged, only a bit of thread is missing, like 10-20% in two and 30% in the last one),
- Cleaned everything with degreaser and compressed air, small shavings and metal dust on magnets with a clean rag and patience
- Got 3 new M8 bolts, loctited them pretty heavily and tightened all as i could.
- Honed a bit the crankshaft housing on the rotor and the crankshaft end (only the conic end, not the flat side where the starter gear goes) with a 600 grade sandpaper, then cleaned with a clean rag and alcohol.
- Cleaned the crankshaft bolt and the interior thread with lots of patience and a tiny screwdriver with a rag soaked in alcohol
- Inserted everything on the crankshaft,
- Loctited the crankshaft bolt,
- Placed the idle reduction gear
- Blocked the idle reduction gear against the starter gear with an allen wrench
- Tightened with a 17 wrench
- Tightened to 128Nm with the dynamometric
- Allen wrench out
- Cleaned the old gasket :cookoo: :mad:
- Covers in place
- Tightened everything
- Gearchange lever
- OIL
At this point... did i miss something ?
Started up and... noise is gone.
Thanks everyone, specially adidasguy for his excellent tutorial on yt, very helpful.
Sounds good.
You should be good for a very long time.
:woohoo: :cheers:
Quote from: Mach on September 18, 2013, 12:17:04 PM
- Honed a bit the crankshaft housing on the rotor and the crankshaft end (only the conic end, not the flat side where the starter gear goes) with a 600 grade sandpaper, then cleaned with a clean rag and alcohol
Despite what some people will have you believe.........THIS is the recognised and correct way to lap a tapered flywheel. Its the only way to ensure the surfaces match correctly and its way professional engineers, machinists, engine builders etc etc have been doing it since the year dot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bezP0s0NtLc
Go ahead and research the subject yourself :dunno_black:
Rubbing the surfaces with sandpaper creates high spots and flats on the corresponding surfaces and actually reduces the efficiency of the tapered interface. I suggest you go back carry out the procedure again using the correct technique as you are now running the risk of the flywheel slipping in use and further damaging the tapered surfaces
However its your bike and your choice.....not only in what you decide to do but in whose advice you decide to take. :dunno_black:
"Never mind. Sledge is always right because the Brits have perfect teeth and great cuisine that rivals the French!"
Quote from: adidasguy on September 18, 2013, 12:45:36 PM
The light rubbing with fine sandpaper roughens the surface so they lock together
That is incorrect, the smoother the surfaces are the more effective the interface is as the contact areas are greater.
I suggest you do some research on the subject yourself rather than blindly assuming your statements are truthful and expecting others to share the sentiment.
"Never mind. Sledge is always right because the Brits have perfect teeth and great cuisine that rivals the French!"
Forgot the obligatory cat.....
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: sledge on September 18, 2013, 12:54:18 PM
Quote from: adidasguy on September 18, 2013, 12:45:36 PM
The light rubbing with fine sandpaper roughens the surface so they lock together
That is incorrect, the smoother the surfaces are the more effective the interface is as the contact areas are greater.
I suggest you do some research on the subject yourself rather than blindly assuming your statements are truthful and expecting others to share the sentiment.
maybe so, in certain cirumstances. but when I build a pc, ill wet sand the heat sink and it runs cooler. essentially makes the contact area greater. by a minute amount. could be the same here too. we had 2 dozen of these gs' at MMI. had to tear one apart in 2001. was getting no fire. I spent the night there teaching myself how to do this. as we used those bikes for fuel delivery and carb tuning. the light sanding worked then and is still working today. as that bike is still there and still running. ( I keep in touch with them. ) as long as its not overdone, and no fragments left behind I see no harm in doing this. its just afterall a MINUTE amount of sanding. hes not grinding off a lot of material afterall.
Quote from: adidasguy on September 18, 2013, 02:25:07 PM
OK. Whatever. You win.
I promise to never respond where you have posted.
I'm too tired of pissing matches.
You win. To you, I'm always wrong and you are always right.
There is never the possibility to you that what I say may work.
I post my findings and opinions without saying they are the absolute truth.
But I am, of course, always wrong.
Enjoy.
Good bye.
Forgot the obligatory cat.....
Won??? I have won nothing. All I have done is highlight a suggestion made by you that does not follow and instead ignores convention and good engineering practise in an attempt to prevent others from suffering is they should choose to follow it. It seems your problem is in the fact you didn't like me doing it :dunno_black:
A suggestion........
Perhaps next time you `advise` people, particularly those who lack knowledge and experience you ensure the advice you give is sound. Then no one has any excuse to question your comments and confront you. It simply does not follow that because you have not had a problem others wont if they do a similar thing.
I hate to think how many people have now `sandpapered` their flywheels and cranks as you suggest in your video and WILL go on to develop further problems as a direct result :dunno_black: My only consolation is that I have tried to point them in the correction direction and suggest they do there own research before accepting without question what you say is best practice.
Some people don't know as much as they think they do about certain subjects and topics.........and some people tend to focus more on who is doing the talking rather than what is being said.........it tends to happen a lot in here, sadly.
Hope you have a nice day......and the cat too :thumb:
sure it defies what is conventional. but does it NOT work? can you disprove his methods? ( and others who have done this) instead of calling him out, heck post links to information advising this should not be done. then let whomever make their choices :) no need for catfights Eh? its not worth it :) anyhoo take care, ride safe, and enjoy the bike. :)
I have no interest in catfights or confrontation, I don't however want to see people suffer as a result of someone else ignorance.
Its accepted that the most reliable and effective methods and techniques become convention, it applies and can be said of anything in engineering, construction, surgery, education etc etc.
But don't just take my word for it. Typing "lapping flywheels" into google gives 2,200,000 hits, if you can find comments from reliable sources that suggest sandpapering tapers provides more reliability than lapping......go right ahead and punch em up here............... because I cant find any..... :thumb:
Fair enough. ill concede that one. BUT think of his argument this way . at least consider it Eh?, if it works, and works as well as lapping the flywheel, is it wrong? or is it a new way of doing something. just food for thought. :thumb:
"Never mind. Sledge is always right because the Brits have perfect teeth and great cuisine that rivals the French!"
this is true. glossy/polished surfaces generally slide against eachother. unless a woodruff key is used. its not like youre carving the grand canyon into it. agreed tho ill step out. before this gets tarded. because this thread has value to those repairing their gs' and other pieces :). Adieu
Aaron
Tapers need to be mirror smooth to be effective......period! I have invited you to research the subject......go ahead and get back to me with your findings...... THEN try and tell me I am wrong :dunno_black:
Ever heard the saying "There is nothing more dangerous than someone who thinks they know what they are talking about?" :D :D :D
Seriously though Patrick, you do a lot for this forum and pass on a lot of relevant info for which you deserve credit but on this one.......you are way out of your depth :nono:
question then, the taper on my 3 shoe clutch is not mirror smooth. a slight VERY slight gritty feeling. but no issues at all. idk lol. :dunno_white:
The only suggestion I can offer is that despite its finish it is still capable of transmitting the torque it is seeing but maybe the interface is oversized for the application :dunno_black:
The rule of thumb for tapered interfaces is a minimum of 80% surface contact with a Ra (roughness average) of about 0.20 micrometers but obviously.....the more the better :thumb:
Interestingly my reference material says its possible to achieve the required finish with a 500 grit surface, but to get it uniform it would have to be ground by machine rather than polished by hand.
and oddly i remember last time i was in there. there was no woodruff key. crank taper was smooth, the clutch however was the gritty part. the clutch frame is almost coloured like titanium. its weird like i said. ive seen the process both ways. and seen both ways work. some defy logic, and some dont.
I wouldn't expect there to be a key of any sort on something that size :dunno_black:.
As for being smooth.....how smooth? To make any sort of judgment you need to use a surface comparator (touch-tables) like this.....
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n159/rake60/SurfaceFinishComparator2.jpg)
But the degree of finish we are talking about i.e right on the border between grinding and lapping is very difficult to determine exactly by eye and feel.
Cant comment on the gritty clutch :dunno_black:
i know i just threw that in because of the discussion of tapers :). you see the two on the lower right of your comparator there?, bottom right, and th eone above it. the inside of my clutch bevel/taper is between those. the woodruff key is used when the engine is used on lawn equipment. but on goped scooters the key is inserted, then milled smooth.
You can tell the degree of finish just by looking at the pic and without touching the surfaces with a fingertip and making comparisons?
All I can say to that is..... WOW! :D :D :D
Patrick?
Its been a day or so, have you taken up my suggestion to research the subject further?
If you are struggling to find a good reference work can I suggest you obtain a copy of John Piotrowskis `Shaft Alignment Handbook 3rd Edition` Its a very popular book with hands on Engineers and machinery designers when they are faced with mechanical power transmission issues and is written in relatively simple terms. Sections 4.9.6 and 4.9.7 are the relevant parts that deal with keyless tapered hubs and its there you will find all the info you need.
http://www.amazon.com/Alignment-Handbook-Edition-Mechanical-Engineering/dp/1574447211
There are other references and documents I can refer you to if you wish and I will be happy to try and answer any further questions you may have. Please note that from Monday I will be out of the country for approx. 10 days owing to work commitments. Where I am going is somewhat remote and I cant guarantee that I will be able to get back to you immediately.
Again....wishing you (and the cat) a nice day :thumb:
Quote from: sledge on September 19, 2013, 02:43:02 PM
You can tell the degree of finish just by looking at the pic and without touching the surfaces with a fingertip and making comparisons?
All I can say to that is..... WOW! :D :D :D
Funny smartass. it RESEMBLED those two I mentioned. happy now? lol :cheers:
If you can say that with accuracy its still pretty impressive :thumb:
Quote from: adidasguy on September 19, 2013, 09:59:37 AM
"Never mind. Sledge is always right because the Brits have perfect teeth and great cuisine that rivals the French!"
So you have now removed your original comments and instead started stereotyping. Strange behaviour for anyone :dunno_black:
Forgive me for saying so but when it comes to stereotyping I think many would agree that your nation presents more opportunities than any other in the world :D :D :D
I could think of many things to say in reply ........however this is not the place and I am not going to lower myself.
Any sensible, pertinent comments on the real issue in hand yet?......take as much time as you want :D :D :D
Quote from: sledge on September 20, 2013, 01:36:33 AM
If you can say that with accuracy its still pretty impressive :thumb:
Have used these things in the past at various jobs. had one nearly identical to yours or the pic you showed. anyhoo jus recalling from memory. ill bow out now. have really nothing to contribute to the original topic. or anything further that i can add to my slight threadjack. Cheers :)