Hello everyone!
My name is Maddie, nice to finally have the initiative to become part of this forum. I have done a lot of reading, but never had the reason to post or the knowledge to really help out. So, here are the details.
1994 gs500E
I put about 4 tanks through before it finally died out. I laid it down once.
New parts since it acts funny: petcock, oil, spark plugs, gas lines, fuel filter, gas, battery.
Symptoms: about a tank ago it started having the sticky idle bit where I had to blip the throttle to get it to go back down to idle. Then after a bit of time it would die at idle. then after a while it just wouldn't start at all.
I have cleaned the carbs, checked the float height (small adjustment), including as well thorough cleaning of the pilot jets and every other tube and hole i could find. I am really trying to get this bike up and going on my own, so going a bit further into possible problems?
The bike will occasionally turn over for just a few rounds, but then die out. some white smoke coming from the tailpipe. I can thoroughly say that the carp is clean, that fuel is getting to the cylinder (wet plugs) and spark (touching it to the outside of the engine and verifying spark. what the heck am I missing as to why its not turning over easy anymore? I could check the valve's, I have shim stock and a shim set for testing. I am really curious what I am missing!
~maddie
How many miles on your bike? Most likely you're due for a valve adjustment anyway, which may also help your problem.
Also, is the new fuel filter an inline filter or did you replace the tank petcock? If it is an inline filter that can cause fuel flow problems. Most people here will tell you to scrap an inline filter and do a valve adjustment and carb sync.
Yep. Valve adjustment all the way. I can vouch for that as of tonight lol. Also, hanging idle generally means a lean condition. I would also venture to say that the inline filter is causing a bit of fuel starvation. Do you have any upgrades or anything that we should know about (exhaust/air filter), or is it completely stock?
Completely stock bike with 10K miles. I pulled the filter off, so just solid lines. I replaced the bike side petcock, not the tank side. I am going to do a valve adjustment tomorrow. Any other suggestions?
Well, if the filter is off, that will definitely make it run lean. Plop that filter back in there. Or, grab a K&N and rejet.
Before you do that, though, you need to get it to actually fire up lol. So, I'd stick with a valve check and carb sync, then move on from there. We'll be here to help.
Oh, and welcome to the forum. I forgot to say that before lol.
Thank you for the welcome! carb sync? as in making sure both the floats are at the same height?
Also, for the valve adjustment. the guides I found claimed that if it was off I should replace the shim with the correct size. Do you happen know what type of shims they are? I have some bolt shims, and some shim stock. just trying to figure out what I need before I get in there. Also, do you think I will need a new gasket? or if mine is in good enough condition it is re-usable?
Quote from: JAS6377 on October 12, 2013, 09:22:00 PM
Well, if the filter is off, that will definitely make it run lean. Plop that filter back in there.
Nope. Fuel filters restrict the flow of fuel, as it is only gravity fed rather than mechanically pumped. Having a fuel filter can and will make the bike run lean. Keep the fuel filter off, it is entirely unnecessary.
If your intending to keep the bike for awhile Maddie it's a good idea to buy yourself a Service & Repair Manual.
Quote from: maddietheblond on October 12, 2013, 08:57:28 PM
Completely stock bike with 10K miles. I pulled the filter off, so just solid lines. I replaced the bike side petcock, not the tank side. I am going to do a valve adjustment tomorrow. Any other suggestions?
One thing comes to mind: is gas flowing? Is there gas in the tank? Pull the line that goes from the frame petcock to the carbs. Put the petcock in PRIME and then see if gas comes out. If nothing comes out, you solved your problem.
Quote from: RossLH on October 12, 2013, 09:51:59 PM
Quote from: JAS6377 on October 12, 2013, 09:22:00 PM
Well, if the filter is off, that will definitely make it run lean. Plop that filter back in there.
Nope. Fuel filters restrict the flow of fuel, as it is only gravity fed rather than mechanically pumped. Having a fuel filter can and will make the bike run lean. Keep the fuel filter off, it is entirely unnecessary.
He was referring to the air filter ;)
Quote from: maddietheblond on October 12, 2013, 09:27:25 PM
Thank you for the welcome! carb sync? as in making sure both the floats are at the same height?
Also, for the valve adjustment. the guides I found claimed that if it was off I should replace the shim with the correct size. Do you happen know what type of shims they are? I have some bolt shims, and some shim stock. just trying to figure out what I need before I get in there. Also, do you think I will need a new gasket? or if mine is in good enough condition it is re-usable?
Were the out of spec valves tight or loose ? If you had 3 loose but 1 tight, that tight valve will keep it form running on that cyl. Since we only have 2 cyl, it means it will start but die in 5 sec.
And is your choke working ?
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: fetor56 on October 12, 2013, 10:14:10 PM
If your intending to keep the bike for awhile Maddie it's a good idea to buy yourself a Service & Repair Manual.
+1. Clymer has worked fine for me.
Also, a carb sync involves equalizing the vacuum between both carbs so that they work in conjunction. There is a tool you have to buy/make that measures the vacuum, and a screw between the carbs that you turn to equalize them. Also, you need to get the correct size shims from a dealer or the internet, shim removal tool (bucket compressor), feeler gauges of appropriate thickness, and a little telescoping magnet helps as well. A manual will help you immensely with this stuff.
You won't know what size shims you need until you get in there and check the clearances. You can reuse the cam cover gasket, at least I did, unless it starts leaking in which case obviously replace it.
Thank you Everyone!! So I do have the Clymer manual, and it has been immensely in everything except for actual troubleshooting. I slept hard and am currently at work (yes, I work on sundays too. Bain of being maintenance for a building with problems) but have grabbed our feeler gauge set.
This morning I made sure the air filter was in and took the fuel filter off, same problem still persists. Since I replaced the petcock I know that it runs on prime, and did a double check and it flows quite well. And yes, the choke does work as I just replaced the cable for it was seized when I bought the bike and thus never present. So any time I ran it was sans choke. And it always fired right up, until it started having those issues (could that have been from starting it without choke?). I am doing 2 things here, trying to figure out the problem and make sure that it does not re-occur. Thank you everyone! I will post results of the feeler tests tonight.
~Madeline
You cant cause problems starting it without choke.
Look @ the valves. I think its one ot more tight valve.
Cool.
Buddha.
Alrighty, sorry for the delay on the reply. Pulled the valve cover and took my shim set and set to work. My shim set goes as low as .0015, and here are the valves starting at the bottom right and going clockwise.
Bottom right: .0015 does not fit
Bottom left: .0015 fits, .02 does not
Top left (rotated camshaft for this): .0015 fits, nothing else does
Top right (prior to rotation): .04 fits
So, should I pull the shims and measure them? or just go ahead and order the .05 less as recomended? maybe .05 and .1 below and return the ones that I dont use?
Thanks!
~M
Bottom right I am guessing is right intake - OK see if you can spin the bucket. If it will spin free, your valves are not hanging open to cause your problem. Atleast not if it is over .0010".
The valve should be set so that .0015 (the thinnest we can find on this planet) fits even in the tightest one, just as a caution and so you dont have to tear into it in a few 100 miles.
Let me read your original post and see what hits me. You may still have a tight one there, so it can happen to be the cause. But let me see if it could be somehting else ... I may have got smarter in the last 2 days ... not happened in the last 44 yrs but hey we all hope.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: maddietheblond on October 12, 2013, 08:01:29 PM
I missing as to why its not turning over easy anymore? I could check the valve's, I have shim stock and a shim set for testing. I am really curious what I am missing!
~maddie
Turning over easy ? You have a decent battery in the thing ? If you dont get it spinning up atleast 300 rpm, it will probably not suck enough fuel to fire and light it.
Spin the bucket, as it spin the crank? I did a full rotation and nothing seems to be hanging at all. Whats the next step buddha?
I have a new battery in it, and I keep it attached to a trickle charger for a hour or two before each mechanical intervention. sometimes I have to jump it with a lawnmower battery. it gets full rotation, of that I am sure.
Quote from: maddietheblond on October 14, 2013, 05:37:51 PM
Spin the bucket, as it spin the crank? I did a full rotation and nothing seems to be hanging at all. Whats the next step buddha?
I have a new battery in it, and I keep it attached to a trickle charger for a hour or two before each mechanical intervention. sometimes I have to jump it with a lawnmower battery. it gets full rotation, of that I am sure.
Spin the valve bucket - with your fingers. If the cam isn't bearing on it, it will spin loose and free, if its got the cam it will drag and make it hard.
OK If the battery is good - does the motor spin up fast when trying to start ?
Cool.
Buddha.
it spins the same as it has from day one. sounds like a proper bike starter.
yes, all of the shims in the bike currently spin freely
maybe a little gunky feeling, but nothing that feels like metal being forced past metal
Quote from: maddietheblond on October 14, 2013, 05:48:55 PM
maybe a little gunky feeling, but nothing that feels like metal being forced past metal
OK well, put a thinner shim in it, just so you dont have it tight in a few 100 miles. But likely not causing your problem.
OK so does the bike spin up nice and fast when you attempt to start it ?
If so, do a compression test.
If not - and your battery is charged - you have a starter that seems to be on its last legs.
Cool.
Buddha.
the started may be going, but it does spin up nice and fast. it also pulls quite a bit of voltage. When I put the multimeter on it and started it the voltage dropped from 12.3 to 6.1. did a basic (finger over the hole) compression test, of which it passed.
Quote from: maddietheblond on October 14, 2013, 05:56:43 PM
the started may be going, but it does spin up nice and fast. it also pulls quite a bit of voltage. When I put the multimeter on it and started it the voltage dropped from 12.3 to 6.1. did a basic (finger over the hole) compression test, of which it passed.
You got me ... maybe that 6.1 is too low for the battery, how good is its recovery - you let go of starter and how fast does it get over 12 ?
I dunno you may have a bad ignitor - never seen that happen on a GS. Yamaha yea all the time.
You may have a bad crank trigger - that will probably produce weak spark.
ooooh wait you change the spark plugs ? try the old plugs if you have em.
Fuel filter ? You say you got fuel ...
I'm Stumped.
Cool.
Buddha.
at one point I attached it to the battery on my suburban. I literally removed the bikes battery from the consideration. I did put the plugs agains the case so it grounded, and solid spark on every rotation, both plugs. I even checked the gap! all was good.
The one time I did get it started as of late it ran for about 30 rotations, then bogged down even as I pulsed the throttle. white smoke as well, but obviously from one cylinder.
I went back out and rotated the ones that measured .0015 or less, and they did spin freely.
OK put the right shim in that one under .0015.
And I have no clue.
You have blow off your thumb compression right ?
Did you change spark plugs ? It may need the old plugs, I've seen new spark plugs not make spark.
Cool.
Buddha.
I have 100% verified that they are getting spark out of compression. I put my thumb on with force and it did force it off. Pulling both spark plugs the motor spins completely freely when I engage the starter. I can say it gets spark and gas gets to the carb, which I have cleaned thoroughly. Maybe there is something I need to adjust for better fuel getting into it?
I just realized that I didnt pull the 2 screws (needle jets?) that are on the air box side of the carb inlet. Should I pull those and clean them? and then I guess I need to tune then back to a certain bit?
I had a simular problem the o-rings between the motor and the rubber carb manifold were leaking. I also sync. the carbs made a world of improvement. I set the valves at 10mm on the ext. and 8mm on the intake. Good luck Rickm1819 1993 GS500E 7354 miles on the bike.
so I am going to do another cleaning, put the valve cover back on since its not hitting, and re assemble and test again.
So I re-assembled everything, and decided to delve into the carb a little. Figured out that I had the needle valve pin in the vacuum bit reversed, so now the needle is actually going into the needle valve. Lets just don the "shade tree mechanic idiot" hat, and continue. found as well one more clog, dealt with that. now there is a thorough gas smell coming from the exhaust, so I know its working well. Still no start though. hooked it up to the car battery, turning over wonderfully, nothing. pulled the plugs, turned it over a few more times, put the plug to the case to check for spark and plentiful there.
so now I am completely flummoxed. we have figured out the valves are not hitting the cam, the carb is completely clean and its getting fuel, and the plugs are firing. what the heck can I check now? air box is sealed up tight, filter installed. fuel filter is off, petcock is working perfectly (brand new to replace one with a blown baffle). fuel line is un-crimped. I really dont want to use starter fluid, but it may be a good way to test if it is a valve issue or is a carb issue. any takers on the idea?
OK what is your fuel level ? I cant help but think its still carb.
Now one time I was worknig on one GStwinners bike after stopping by his place and seeing him fit an exhaust on and doing some other light work, and test riding it ... it ran fine, he was gonna jet it after I left ... and ... the bike didn't start after he jetted it.
He trucked it to my house, where I killed myself over it for a week. It had spark, it had compression, it ran with the stock jets in it ... I rode it ... now it wont start.
Turns out he put new plugs in it ... in addiotn to jetting it.
I saw spark ... but somehow it didn't light it up. I put a old set of plugs in and instant vroom vroom ...
There can be new spark plugs that spark, and look perfect to all possible tests does not light up. That's all I got ...
Cool.
Buddha.
BTW the same stupid thing happened to my MZ.
However I suspect its alternator rotor spun on the crank changing the timing for the spark. Its seemingly sparking 1/2 way through the intake stroke ...
No cant happen in the GS, its timing is form the other side from the igntion advancer, and that cant spin on the crank. OK fine if you want to be sure, take off that round cover on the right and see the advancer and the crank is nicely pegged to it via the little pin. If that is the case, you're golden.
Cool.
Buddha.
so I was a idiot and threw out the plugs when I changed them like 2 weeks ago. This has been a ongoing project. I am going to do the float bowl test with fuel height again tonight, as well as pick up a new set of plugs. maybe it was just that brand, but I am dubious it was that simple
Quote from: maddietheblond on October 15, 2013, 06:02:11 AM
so I was a idiot and threw out the plugs when I changed them like 2 weeks ago. This has been a ongoing project. I am going to do the float bowl test with fuel height again tonight, as well as pick up a new set of plugs. maybe it was just that brand, but I am dubious it was that simple
Did it start after the plugs were changed ?
If it did, its not your problem.
Cool.
Buddha.
it has ran with the plugs in, and but I am going to buy another set just in case. nothing wrong with having a spare set. But I think I may have found the problem. Finally found a screwdriver small enough to get the pilot jet out, and it was clogged fully. I also did test on the floats to see where the fuel was sitting, and it was way low. so I have re-done the floats and clean the pilot jet out completely. going to re-install them all tonight.
I've done this before.....I think you swapped the plug wires to the wrong cylinders
Quote from: robfriedenberger on October 15, 2013, 02:45:47 PM
I've done this before.....I think you swapped the plug wires to the wrong cylinders
That is not possible on a GS500. They aren't long enough. And with a coil on each side of the bike, it would be obvious ifyou ran the left coil to the right and vice versa (if they would even reach that far).
Quote from: maddietheblond on October 15, 2013, 09:31:55 AM
it has ran with the plugs in, and but I am going to buy another set just in case. nothing wrong with having a spare set. But I think I may have found the problem. Finally found a screwdriver small enough to get the pilot jet out, and it was clogged fully. I also did test on the floats to see where the fuel was sitting, and it was way low. so I have re-done the floats and clean the pilot jet out completely. going to re-install them all tonight.
Bingo ...
Choke sucks through that pilot jet, and the air screw too ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: maddietheblond on October 15, 2013, 09:31:55 AM
it has ran with the plugs in, and but I am going to buy another set just in case. nothing wrong with having a spare set. But I think I may have found the problem. Finally found a screwdriver small enough to get the pilot jet out, and it was clogged fully. I also did test on the floats to see where the fuel was sitting, and it was way low. so I have re-done the floats and clean the pilot jet out completely. going to re-install them all tonight.
I've done the float thing before. I adjusted them while off the bike, then when I put the carbs back on I was flooding one cylinder, and the other seemed lean. I took them back off and rechecked and somehow got the floats way off. I ended up readjusting the floats, then checking each side at least a dozen times with the caliper to make sure they were in spec. Once I was satisfied I reinstalled and it was much better. It's so easy to jack up the float adjustment. I have tried the clear tube method, but found that I can get them adjusted well with calipers on a bench rather than trying to do it on the bike.
It could most likely use a few more moments of adjustment, but i am slowly getting it right. But, I installed another NEW set of spark plugs, new fuel lines (the old ones were getting pretty gross), and cleaned and re-installed the pilot jets. Low and behold, IT RAN! but I did have to jump it off the suburban. I let it run for a bit, then took it for a spin around the block. Did great until I went above 4Krpm and then it bogged down, lights went dim etc. I tried to push through it and it just drained the battery solidly. pushed it back up the driveway (30degree grade, no fun) and let it sit for a minute. Jumped it again and it ran. so I am going to assume that the battery is just not holding enough charge to compensate on the heavier accelerations. getting paid tonight, will buy a new one tomorrow.
Have you tested the stator and the regulator/rectifier? It could be an issue with the charging circuit rather than the battery.
I have not tested them under load. Going to put a new battery in, start it up, then check what voltage it is putting out.
Quote from: maddietheblond on October 15, 2013, 08:39:52 PM
I have not tested them under load. Going to put a new battery in, start it up, then check what voltage it is putting out.
You can actually test them without the bike running.
The stator should have 3 wires coming from it. First unplug the stator. With a multimeter, make sure there is no continuity between any wire and ground. Measure the resistance across 1-2, 2-3, and 3-1; all three of these readings should be similar (around 0.2-2.5 Ohm). If these check out, the stator is OK. If any wire has continuity to ground or there are any wire pairs with no continuity or different resistance, then the stator is bad.
The Regulator/Rectifier should have 5 wires; 3 going to the stator, 1 to +, and 1 to Gnd. Unplug the regrec. To check it you'll need a multimeter (MM) with a diode setting. Start with the MM red to + and test each of the wires going to the stator, then connect the MM black to + and test the stator wires again, repeat this test of the stator wires to Gnd. Of these 12 tests, you should have 3 that pass to + and 3 that pass from Gnd; the other 6 tests should fail. If this checks out, then the reg/rec should be good.
If you have a sealed battery in side ways - if it tips - as in you accelerate, or go uphill, the positive post of the battery will hit the battery cage and short itself. Make sure that's not happening.
Else dying @ 4k could be alternator and battery, but battery dont know its 4k, battery will die @ 2k if you run it long enough.
OK higher rpm = higher draw for spark plug etc, and its covered by the higher output from the alternator ... OK you may be not getting anything out of the alt, but the higher draw @ 4k sends the battery to its doom. Maybe.
Anyway if the issue re occours - look at your carb again.
Cool.
Buddha.