Was driving my 04 GS500F back to school yesterday when in the middle of going up a hill I had it completely die on me and lose all power. I pulled it over to the side of the road tried to get it to turn over. Nothing happen when I hit the ignition switch I heard one click, and that is it. From talking to a buddy that is a mechanic I found the 20 amp fuse on the right hand side of the bike (I'm guessing this is the starter selionid please feel free to correct me) after replacing the fuse in what I believe to be the starter selinoid I still did not get the bike to do anything to get it to turn over. The next thing I did was check my oil, my bike was hot at this point and sitting on the side stand but I ended up what it looked like to me of having no oil. This does not make sense however because back in August I put new seals on the bike. I haven't had an oil leak sense, and I know my oil light works because the last time I changed the oil it came on. I never saw the oil light came on. Anyone know why my bike wouldnt start?
The fuse out in the open on the side is a spare.
The REAL fuse is under the rubber cover for the starter relay.
Check battery with a meter. Quite possibly the battery died and/or the voltage regulator died.
Oil must be checked on the center stand and level.
On the side stand you will usually think you have no oil. (Bike is tilted and all oil went to the left side so no oil on right side for the dip stick.)
Click = the solenoid is closing.
The battery may be bad, the motor may be stuck ... something is preventing the starter from spinning over the motor.
Cool.
Buddha.
Ok. So I was finally able to look at my bike since I have been busy over the past month. I was told by one of my friends that works on bikes to by pass the starter selinoid and just hit the wires together to see if it would turn over. I tried this and the bike sounded like it wanted to start but still would not turn all the way over :mad: . Just to be curious if I did run out of oil I loosened the oil plug on the bottom of the bike, and oil ran out (I would believe this means I didn't run out of oil.) :dunno_black: So then I took my bike and hooked jumper cables up to the fully charged battery to see if it just didn't have enough juice. Hit the two wires together and still nothing. To respond to if the fuse was bad I checked the fuse and it was fine, and I also fully charged this battery before testing all of this. I have had one person tell me to check the ignition coils and someone else tell me that it might be a bad starter clutch. Any more ideas?
See if you can move the engine by pushing the bike in gear and then letting the clutch out carefully. Use higher gears for this test.
regards
Mech
^^ This
or, easier is pull off the right side cover (not the whole thing, just the round stator cover), put a wrench on the bolt head and see if you can spin the crank by hand. If not, then something is wrong inside the block. Otherwise, I'd follow Adidas or Buddha on the electrical route. Check wire continuity between all the switch points and starter, make sure no wires have lost connection.
Quote from: Old Mechanic on December 05, 2013, 01:20:36 PM
See if you can move the engine by pushing the bike in gear and then letting the clutch out carefully. Use higher gears for this test.
regards
Mech
I have read that it is easier to push start a carb'd bike in 2nd gear. Just hold in the clutch and start pushing it and dump the clutch and it might turn over. The rest is a balancing act of either hopping on the bike and shifting it into neutral so it won't die again or doing some brake magic to keep the bike from running away from you.
Couple things.
1. We don't have a starter clutch or starter solenoid. We do have a relay (you can hear it click) that goes when you press the starter button. That makes the starter motor go and it is geared, by means of a one way mechanical clutch (that rarely goes bad) to the main crank.
2. We DO have an interlock that stops the bike. The bike must be in neutral OR the side stand up. Id not in neutral and the side stand is down, the side stand relay goes off and the bike will not run or start. On center stand, if bike is not in neutral and you raise & lower the side stand you can hear a faint click from the right side when the relay goes on and off. Best when working is be in neutral AND on the center stand with the side stand up.
3. The clutch safety switch is wired in series with the starter button. If clutch not held in or the safety switch broken or wires off, the starter button does nothing even if all of the above are OK. If in doubt, you can short the wires to the clutch safety switch. Newer bikes you can wrap a small wire around the contacts or pull the plug and stick a wire in it to complete the circuit.
4. Remember the real fuse is under the rubber cover.
5. If electricals are functioning, you WILL hear a click of the starter relay when you press the start button. There should be a chug or some type of sound from the starter motor unless the battery is too weak, the starter motor is fried or the wires tothe starter motor are not connected.
6. You know the fuse is good of the oil light comes on and the headlight works. The battery has at least some power, too.
7. A volt meter is your friend to see what voltage you really have and to trace out electrical issues.
8. Removing the right side timing cover as mentioned and rotating the engine clockwise with a 19mm wrench will tell you quickly of the engine is seized.
Ok. Well I tried most of the things you said adidasguy. When I try to start the bike in neutral with the side stand down I do hear the clicking from the relay that you were talking about. When I had the relay connected all the bike would do when I hit the ignition button is just click, click, click, click, as I held it down. I did check the real fuse under the rubber cover that is the 20 amp fuse that is yellow the metal connection on that is still fine. Next, i took the positive and the negative cable from the relay to test and see if that would work like I said still nothing. The battery was fully charged the last time I tested this and as you said adidasguy "there should be a cug or some type of sound" I got no sound from the engine area. Would this mean that my starter motor is fried or possibly the wires to the starter motor are not connected as you said. The only thing I did not try when i was last at home was the thing with removing the side timing cover as mention and rotating the engine clockwise with the wrench. I'm guess if it doesn't rotate it is seized correct?
Correct. If you can not turn it by hand then you have a problem inside the case. If it does turn, then you are probably just dealing with a bad starter. If the battery is fully charged, and you are just getting a rapid clicking when you try to start it, that's a sure sign your motor is not functioning. Out of curiosity, does your headlight dim or drop out when you try to start it?
Yes the headlight does dim and at a certain point the battery ends up dying because of me trying to get the bike to start so many times.
Ok. So at least that tells us the power is going somewhere, and the only place for it to go really is the starter motor. My guess is that's your culprit. Pull it out, and just pop a 12v line on it, see if it spins. I would secure it first....
Without a meter you don't know WHAT you have for power.
You have the symptoms of a dead battery.
Get a meter.
Jump the bike from a car battery (non-running car) or use a different battery you know is good.
For god's sake people - everyone must have a meter to do any electrical work. Days and days of guessing. No meter is like checking the oil by unscrewing the drain and seeing if any oil comes out. If some comes out, there must be some oil in there (though no idea how much) Stick on the meter probes. Less than 13v? Bad battery. Hit the starter once and it drops to 10v? Dead battery. Over 13v? Probably good. Hit the starter and drops & stays low? Bad battery. Hit the starter then voltage jumps back to 13v or more when you let up? Good battery so trace wires for other problems.
Not that hard. Meters are easier than a torque wrench. Turn on meter. Set to DC voltage scale higher than what you are measuring. So looking for 12v? Set to 20v scale. Put red probe on red battery terminal and black on black. Read meter.
Now for the locked engine - that's 2 minutes tops. Remove the 3 bolts for the timing cover. (7mm or 8mm I recall). Grab a 19mm wrench and see if you can turn the engine clockwise using the hex end of the timing rotor. If you reach "Damn - that is hard" then the engine is seized. If it turns and there are easy and hard spots - it is OK. Hard spots are where the cams are pressing the valves and then the easy spots are where valves are not pressed. If turns OK, replace cover. If not, replace motor.
(Yes I am a Grumpy Cat today. Not been riding since Monday when I got home 5 minutes before freezing hail. Been below freezing ever since and will be for a few more days. Bike Cave closed for the weekend due to cold. No raccoons to demonstrate my pellet gun to. Frustrating. So I'm grumpy.)
I should add (ok, so I will) that your bike can die if the charging system is not functioning. Your bike will run 10 to 30 minutes on the battery alone (ask me how I know). If the regulator or stator dies, you have limited time before the battery drains and the bike dies. Rare, but the regulator can die. Usually it dies giving over voltage bike runs, but lights keep blowing out) . On rare occasions it can die and stop charging. OR the wires could get disconnected resulting in the regulator not being connected to charge the battery. With your meter and the bike running, you can check the status of the charging system just by reading the voltage at the battery while revving the motor.
Harbor Freight Tools 7 Function Digital Multimeter $3.99 (http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-multimeter-98025.html)
(http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_23332.jpg)
Adidas got angry! :mad: But made a good point.
Quote from: Soloratov on December 06, 2013, 05:21:31 PM
Adidas got angry! :mad: But made a good point.
Not angry - GRUMPY!
Not been riding since Monday at 5:45pm. Going through withdrawal symptoms.
But I do get frustrated with things going on and on for days and weeks discussing batteries and jumping and charging and not once was it mentioned what the real voltage was on the battery. Its like "There's gas in the tank but bike won't run very long. Must need to rip out the petcock and do crap". But have you tried RESERVE or filling up the tank? "No - because I see some gas in there". DUH! Flipped to reserve and bike ran. Went to go fill up with gas. I've personally seen that MANY times and even had emergency phone calls when a bike stopped working. True! Same thing: Go to reserve. You're out of gas. Now go fill up.
Man I will have to start a bike tonight just to relieve tension. Suzi needs a hug. Junior wants to make noise. Heck, I'll even sit on the EX.
And on Steevo's picture: go 2 clicks counter clockwise to set it to the 20 volt scale. No harm - just better readings of 12v when on a 20 volt scale verses a 1000 volt scale. Plug black probe into the bottom hole and the red one into the hole just above it. (Turn meter OFF when not in use so battery doesn't drain - then you need another meter to test the battery in the first meter). And if you connect the probes backwards? No harm. It will just read a MINUS voltage like -12.8 rather than 12.8. Same thing - just probes reversed.
Now thanks to Steevo's picture and suggested price of a few bucks there is no reason not to go out - every one of you - and get a meter. Harbor Fright, Radio Schlop, Homor Despot, they all have meters. I'd say a meter is more important than a torque wrench. Torque you can feel and learn to feel - where bad ass tight is good for the axle but just snuggy is right for the oil filter cap. I've been taught the "2 finger torque test" by Bike Cave members. Electricity is hard to tell in the low DC range. Sticking your tongue on wires doesn't work very well. Shockingly fun - but not very precise. So skip the thrill of trying to be Uncle Fester and get a meter. Cheap insurance and gets the job done in seconds versus weeks of postings and you still don't know the voltage of the battery.
Getting over the grumpies because....
Must have been approved just today! The new UW Purple license plates just made available. This will be so cool!
I got this email:
Thank you for signing up with us to receive email reminders for your:
• 1998 SUZI GS500E with license plate HUHSKY
When it's time to renew instead of receiving a paper copy we'll send you an email.
Questions?
Email us: titles@dol.wa.gov.
Here's another Idea, a 12V accessory outlet :icon_idea:
Monitor Voltage
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/mod03.jpg)
Charging/Storage: Battery Tender Cigarette Lighter Adapter
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/mod02.jpg)
Charge phones, Zunes, Ipod's
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/mod01.jpg)
Quote from: adidasguy on December 06, 2013, 05:39:47 PMNot angry - GRUMPY!
Not been riding since Monday at 5:45pm. Going through withdrawal symptoms.
Ride your Suzuki 185 Enduro over to Stevo's house and I will take you trail riding in Stevo's 100 Acre Woods. I don't street ride this time of the year, but my WR250R gets ridden enough it never has to go on the charger or have Sta-Bil added to the fuel.
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/wr01.jpg)
So after being able to finally come home for a little bit back from college to look at my bike I have a pretty good idea that the engine is or was seized :technical:. I did what you guys told me got a mutlimeter put it up to the battery tried to get it to start. Nothing really ever happened to the battery stayed at about 12 or 13v. Then I got a 19 mm wrench took the timing cover off, and then tried to turn the timing thing that requires the 19mm wrench. Turned it clock wise and it spun around still make a clinking noise. Then i plugged it up to a regular car battery and then tried to get it to turn over. To make a long story short after about 3 mins on the starter it turned over but then made a horrible metal on metal noise. I am guessing either the engine is seized or that a piston broke? :woohoo: Any other suggestions on what it would be? I put oil in it before I started it as well. Just curious on if it could be anything loose behind the timing cover. I know I'm probably wishing for the best, and that in all honesty it needs a new motor. Would a new motor be the cheapest way to go or getting a rebuild kit?
Quote from: shadow8586 on December 26, 2013, 11:35:35 PM
So after being able to finally come home for a little bit back from college to look at my bike I have a pretty good idea that the engine is or was seized :technical:. I did what you guys told me got a mutlimeter put it up to the battery tried to get it to start. Nothing really ever happened to the battery stayed at about 12 or 13v. Then I got a 19 mm wrench took the timing cover off, and then tried to turn the timing thing that requires the 19mm wrench. Turned it clock wise and it spun around still make a clinking noise. Then i plugged it up to a regular car battery and then tried to get it to turn over. To make a long story short after about 3 mins on the starter it turned over but then made a horrible metal on metal noise. I am guessing either the engine is seized or that a piston broke? :woohoo: Any other suggestions on what it would be? I put oil in it before I started it as well. Just curious on if it could be anything loose behind the timing cover. I know I'm probably wishing for the best, and that in all honesty it needs a new motor. Would a new motor be the cheapest way to go or getting a rebuild kit?
We've seen both done here. Some guys have flat out rebuilt their engines after having a spun crank bearing (which you could have?). I've seen complete engines on eBay for around $500-$700.
If you can sell what is left, though, maybe get a different bike? The GS is great and all, but there are so many options out there...
So I would be correct to think that the engine is shot then? There wouldn't be something else I would be missing or something simple it might be :dunno_black:. I am probably hoping for too much but I thought I would ask. Thanks for all the help to all the guys on this forum even if it does end up being that I'm SOL.
To get that bike on the road you're certainly going to have to remove the engine and either rebuild or replace it. It probably wouldn't hurt to pull the cylinder head while you're at it; it could be that you just broke off a valve or something more serious. Whatever the problem is, by removing the head (and possibly cylinder) you can at least see what's going on and assess the repair-ability.
Wouldn't hurt to pull the cover on the left to make sure it isn't goats locking it up and/or clicking when turning it over with wrench. Doubt it's due to starter motor problems it wasn't involved when bike stopped on road. If it's not goats I'd at least pull the valve cover before pulling the head or engine, could help to see if it's a valve or timing chain problem. I saw a broken valve on mine thru the spark plug hole as did another member recently. No mention has been made as to how much oil was in it when it was drained and filled or if a proper oil level check was made before it was drained. I hate to pull everything apart until I know what's wrong if possible to determine. How many miles on this 04 engine?
The oil probably left in it was around 1 quart of oil. The thing that doesn't make sense about any of this IF it did run out of oil is that my oil indicator light never came on! I also know for a fact that it works because the last time I changed the oil the light came on. Also the bike only had roughly 26000 miles on it. I would not think that an engine would go that quick unless the two pervious owners before me red line the hell outta it all the time. :dunno_black:
The oil pressure light should come on every time you turn the ignition on and remain on until the engine starts and the pump builds pressure. Could be the bulb is burned out and you didn't get the warning? Sure you didn't see the light since the last oil change? One quart is not enough for pickup. High oil consumption usually starts with running sustained high speeds after you have at least 40-50k miles on it. I didn't add oil between oil changes on my 2 GSs until past 30-40k miles on them.
Quote from: gsJack on December 27, 2013, 03:21:56 PM
The oil pressure light should come on every time you turn the ignition on and remain on until the engine starts and the pump builds pressure. Could be the bulb is burned out and you didn't get the warning? Sure you didn't see the light since the last oil change? One quart is not enough for pickup. High oil consumption usually starts with running sustained high speeds after you have at least 40-50k miles on it. I didn't add oil between oil changes on my 2 GSs until past 30-40k miles on them.
The bike oil pressure light works. I know that the blub will stay on until your turn the bike on and it builds pressure. That is the thing the light still works. Until the bike actually started and ran the oil light was on and even when I turned it over this time when it made the horrible metal on metal noise the oil light went off. I did see the light since the last oil change but I did not see it while I was driving the bike down the road. I never saw the light while it was running. I didn't think the bike was low on oil either considering i hadn't had any major oil leaks or the last time I checked it was fine. Still the oil does smell burnt and that is what makes me think there is an engine problem.
If oil light is working and going out it had enough oil to maintain pressure and run but a quart still isn't enough to go any distance at any speed; it cools the top end too and the small quantity would soon get cooked and stop lubricating the bearings, cylinders, etc. Looks like it is engine repair or replace time, burnt oil smell also indicates it was too hot.
My 02 with 100k miles on the clock still runs good and still sounds pretty good but it needs almost daily oil level attention to keep it doing so. Surprised you ran out of oil with only 26k on yours unless it leaked or has been way too long since the last change or maybe that isn't the actual mileage. I change oil regularly and don't even see any smoking, they seem to start burning oil like gasoline somewhere past 50-60k miles or so. We never know for sure how many miles are really on a used bike we buy from a stranger.
Quote from: adidasguy on December 06, 2013, 05:39:47 PM
Quote from: Soloratov on December 06, 2013, 05:21:31 PM
Adidas got angry! :mad: But made a good point.
Not angry - GRUMPY!
Not been riding since Monday at 5:45pm. Going through withdrawal symptoms.
I too, suffer from PMS...
Parked Motorcycle Syndrome... it plagues many of us through these darker, colder, winter months...
- Bboy
Edit: Oh, and to actually add to the topic...
I wouldn't give up and get rid of your bike or buy a new motor just yet... First hand, and second hand accounts I've read on this forum support the following occurrence which I don't have an explanation for... When my battery was dying and I got the infamous clicking and while battling keeping it charged before getting my new battery, I heard a loud, almost metallic clunk when trying to start my bike... it scared the mess out me, and I didn't want to touch the starter again in fear... It would be important to note that the sound was a single clunk/clack and the bike still didn't start up. New battery shows up, charged it up and slapped it in and crossed my fingers. Bike started right up with no odd sounds, and many trouble free miles later, still running strong. I've heard that noise twice since owning my bike and both were when the battery was dying, and I have no explanation for it... only thing I can say is it still runs like it always did, Fantastic! Itd be hard to find the particular thread ive read it in previously, but I've read that same occurrence before on here.
Quote from: gsJack on December 28, 2013, 08:59:08 AM
If oil light is working and going out it had enough oil to maintain pressure and run but a quart still isn't enough to go any distance at any speed; it cools the top end too and the small quantity would soon get cooked and stop lubricating the bearings, cylinders, etc. Looks like it is engine repair or replace time, burnt oil smell also indicates it was too hot.
My 02 with 100k miles on the clock still runs good and still sounds pretty good but it needs almost daily oil level attention to keep it doing so. Surprised you ran out of oil with only 26k on yours unless it leaked or has been way too long since the last change or maybe that isn't the actual mileage. I change oil regularly and don't even see any smoking, they seem to start burning oil like gasoline somewhere past 50-60k miles or so. We never know for sure how many miles are really on a used bike we buy from a stranger.
That is what I dont understand is that it wasn't due for me to change the oil for another like 1500 miles. I had fixed all my oil leaks replaced all the gaskets right around the middle of summer. After that drove it a little bit was sitting for a bit before that but not really rubbed that much. NEVER saw an oil leak after I replaced the gaskets. I will have to replaced the battery but the loud metal on metal sound was when the bike was running Bockinboy. Still dont know what direction to go with this.
Pull off the timing chain tensioner, it could be stuffed causing the chain to skip teeth and valves to tangle / hit the piston. Pull the head cover off. You'll probably have a bent valve or 3.
If this is the case it doesn't necessarily mean an engine rebuild. Mine was like this when I got it. New valves (my guides were okay) and valvegrind, gaskets, possibly shims.
(The first thing I'd do if I ever got another GS would be to check the tensioner, they're not too expensive and could save plenty of grief).
Quote from: shadow8586 on January 06, 2014, 01:31:59 PM
I will have to replaced the battery but the loud metal on metal sound was when the bike was running Bockinboy.
Oh, sorry it seems I misunderstood... that is a different situation indeed.
It seems the only thing that will tell you what to do is to actually have a look inside. That's the only way to know what's all going on in there and what it will take to fix it. Then you'll have an informed decision on the bike's future - replace parts, replace engine, or replace bike. Putting myself in your shoes, I would look at everything I can before tearing into to know where to look... but know that will only get you so far without seeing the actual problem, and what else it has affected.
- Bboy