Hey there, I'm seeing if anyone on here can help me out. I'm in desperate need of it! I bought a bike earlier this year with no title but got a bill of sale thinking that's all I'd need to get a new title. Unfortunately in the state of Virginia that isnt enough. I applied for a new title but couldn't get one. After running around with my head cut off i contacted a second investigator through my Criminal justice professor (cop/ magistrate). The investigator came back to me with the new that my bike doesnt exist. That it never had existed. In any data base they can find. It doesnt exist in any police data base in virginia, doesnt exist in any dmv records, or in any other data base they could possibly think of to run it through. This bugs me because I just blew all my money before college to get it running. Basically the dmv told me theres nothing they can do for me. Ive got a bike that exist but doesnt exist. Is anyone out there able to sell me a title? or a virginia title? just some sort of documentation. I dont have much money, especially not for a new frame.. help?
Vehicle buying 101: ALWAYS make sure you get a title with the purchase and that the listed owner matches the name on the seller's driver's license.
The bill of sale is typically not required for titling and only used for tax purposes; if the sale price is under 50% of the book value and you don't have a bill of sale, then the DMV typically biss taxes based on the book value rather than the sale price.
In basically every state the most important document for registering a vehicle in your name (and title transfer) is a current title on which the seller has signed it over to you; some states require this to be notarized. The title is actually tied to the bike's VIN number, so it's impossible to buy just a title. It's possible that the bike is registered in another state.
Probably your best bet would be to contact the seller and request that he get a duplicate title that he can sign over to you. If that fails, you may have to take him to small claims court.
Alternatively, you may be able to get a title through the abandoned vehicle process; but there is a possibility that the seller will say it's his and claim it.
Try here:
https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck
Never hurts to try CarFax -
http://vin.carfax.com/new2/?partner=GCT_3&infinity=gaw~Vin%2BUS%2BENG%2BSPART~Check%20Vin%2BEXACT~27871144463~vin%20check~e
There are lots of places if you google "vin check".
Even if it costs a little, you should be able to get a new title if it shows up somewhere. Probably some other state.
And do a VIN decode to be sure it is a real VIN. AND look on the steering stem. The VIN is stamped there.
http://www.vindecoder.net/
I check the CARFAX it didn't exist.I took the vehicle for theft and it wasn't stolen or report it stolen nor has it been reported wrecked. Its changed hands over five times without the title so we can't find the original owner
Quote from: aaronmact on October 28, 2013, 10:21:11 PMIts changed hands over five times without the title so we can't find the original owner
Have any of those intermediary owners had it registered? You need the title to register it. Also each time a vehicle changes hands the title has to be signed over and then submitted to the DMV; they in turn will issue a new title in the new owner's name. So on your end you don't need a title with the original owner's name on it, but rather that of the person who sold it to you.
I've tried all that and the DMV couldn't help. The previous owners did them no good neither did the previous plates on the bike
if those sources didnt work for you, then something simple is wrong, like changing zero for the letter O and 1 for the letter i or L, most of all, should be 11-17 characters in the vin.
shifting gears, not all states require a title for transfer or ownership after so many years old. there are some states that only require a bill of sale, (here comes the Dicey part) there are some companies that can register your bike in one of those states giving you plates and registration good for 1 year along with needed paperwork to correctly register the bike in your state. (WARNING some of these companies ARE, and some of them ARE NOT on the up and up. BEWARE)
and finnaly, the old fall back, find a titled frame and swap the parts over, keep the bill of sale showing you bought the first bike as a "PARTS BIKE" like a blown engine replacement. some states dont like engine swaps without a paper trail showing you legaly bought the engine, the rest of the bike parts are not traced like the engine and frame are
in Minnesota you have to do a "statement of facts" this is what im doing from buying my frame from Pinwall Inc. I had to take pictures of the frame and get some paperwork bring it in to the DMV and wait 4-6 months for a title. if you do this its a legal doc you are signing so beware. Call down to a state office that does your titling and see what they can do, explain what happened and ask how the other person was able to get tabs for it(registered), be nice if you are rude or an ass to them they will not help you. You might want to try and see if you can get it titled as a bike you built yourself, like a custom bike builder would do. Also you might have to get it inspected, depends on your state. if nothing else you can get a frame from Pinwall for under $200, but this also comes with only a bill of sale because they send the title back to their DMV to be destroyed.
Washington has a procedure for unknown owner and while it goes through process you have plates.
The previous plates should be tied to something in the DMV records.
Let some of us try to help. Would you give us a photograph of the VIN on the steering stem? Plenty of people here willing to help. We all have our special internet searches. Someone may turn up something from a different state.
Back to the plates - what comes up when they run the plate?
The titled frame is an option. I have bought titled frames for $100 plus postage. Transferred the title and walked out with new plates in 5 minutes - then that is here in Washington where bikes don't need inspections.
One other option is find a real crappy parts bike with a title.
One other type of title is a custom made bike. It may require an inspection, but that might work in your state. Custom would not necessarily have a title or paper trail.
Sure it may not exist - I have a GSXR frame that does not exist, but of course that's cos I got it from canadia.
Some states (CA and TX) may never let you register it ...
Some states (like NH and GA that I know of) could care less.
Cool.
Buddha.
I hope sombody can help. I had a similar problem a view years back with a bike in TN. I did not get anywhere and gave up. I was a bike from GA, where they don't need one for older vehicles somehow. I ended up giving up and getting rid of the bike so I traded it for something else with a buddy that wanted parts of it.
Now I make sure, as mentioned above, title with current owner, matching the DL and I get a bill of sale also. Last bike came from NY with last registration in NY in 08. No problem to transfer to TN.
Sorry if my replies or awnsers have been short. I've been doing my replies off my phone and my college WiFi has been interfering.
As far as the plates, the Virginia DMV empties their data base every five years. The bike hasn't been registered since 99.
I've applied for abandoned vehicle, rebuilt (since it was litterally a frame with a box of parts) and anything else that I could think of and all got turned down.
And hears the steering stem picture s (if they post)
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Quote from: tcmia on October 29, 2013, 06:20:34 AMNow I make sure, as mentioned above, title with current owner, matching the DL and I get a bill of sale also. Last bike came from NY with last registration in NY in 08. No problem to transfer to TN.
Yeah, the valid title is the most important document to get when buying private party. Some states require a notarized sign-over to the new owner; if you buy a bike from titled in a state that requires notary, the state you're transferring the title to may check that the signature is notarized.
Quote from: aaronmact on October 29, 2013, 09:34:35 AMAs far as the plates, the Virginia DMV empties their data base every five years. The bike hasn't been registered since 99.
I've applied for abandoned vehicle, rebuilt (since it was litterally a frame with a box of parts) and anything else that I could think of and all got turned down.
I what state was it last registered?
And there should be a record of the title even if it hasn't been registered. The title is the proof of ownership, while the plates/registration are what lets you use it on the roads.
Perhaps you should talk with a supervisor at the DMV and see if they can tell you why the abandoned/rebuilt title apps were turned down.
The bikes last plates where here in Virginia. Which is what blew my mind again.
And I guess I'll try talking to them again. They said I couldn't claim it as those because it wasn't them.
I appreciate everyone who is helping me, it truly means alot. Ill give you all the in depth run down of my Dmv experience. This is after running the carfax (finding the only thing was it being shipped to the dealer), and searching things online to find whether it was stolen.
I waited in line at the dmv for a good hour ( like always) and I finally get to the front of the line. I tell the lady, "hey I just got this bike, the guy didnt have the title. It's changed hands five times with out it and we cant find the original owner. I have the original plate numbers if you could run those and get an idea of the last owner since they were registered here in virginia. " she pretty much told me no. That I would have to apply for an investigator to track down the original owner. I was like " well can i claim it as an abandoned vehicle? Its been sitting for ten years, all of which it hasnt been on the road. " she said no. I asked " well what about a salvage or rebuilt vehicle title? I mean I got this thing literally in a box. Just pure parts and a frame" again she said "no"
Getting flustered I finally said ok and took her form to fill out and sent that along with the bill of sale and anything I had about the bike. The guy emailed me and told me there was nothing he could do. He said to fill out forms VSA12 and VSA17 ( in lieu of a title, and application for a new title (I believe)). And so I filled those out and sent them into the dmv with all the money and fees Id need to get new title. 3 Months went buy and one day I get a call from the dmv. They told me "they couldn't get me a title without some proof of ownership, such as a title, or a registration card."
At this point I was livid, because the dmv was basically telling me "you cant get a title without a title" (since you need a title to register the vehicle to get a registration card). Thinking I hit a dead end I approached my Criminal justice professor who is a police officer and magistrate here in the state of Virginia. I gave her all the information and asked her to run it through the Virginia police data base. She got back nothing. So she took the information to her friend who is an investigator with the dmv and he ran everything he could think of. He came back to her and told her that something has happened that hasn't happened to him in the past 15 years hes worked there. Nothing came back. He said " literally the bike doesnt exist in any database or any records I have access to or can find." he said I should try contacting the dealer, thats pretty much my only shot.
And now Im here. So theres the full run down since I was skimpy on it before :dunno_white:
Oh fudge it ... If there is a candidate for a title+vin cut and paste I think this is it ...
Get a titled frame from any state, and you dont need the frame.
Then cut those numbers into your neck. Then go to dmv and get it titled.
Cool.
Buddha.
Bad idea on recutting any numbers on the frame, you could get in even deeper dodo. It might even be a felony in Va to alter the frame VIN and a separate offense from any others.
Living in Va and having gone through this process without success, your best bet is to get a titled frame and title THAT frame in Va. If you carry the title (from virtually any other state) into the DMV and the title is not branded salvage then they will issue you a title to that frame.
That is your best bet and although I am sure it is not what you want to read it is your best option in Virginia. Bottom line is Virginia law basically states, if you do not have a title, you do not own the bike. Otherwise you have a legal nightmare and it could cost you a lot more time, money and frustration before you get a title.
regards
Mech
Just a tonight, could you get it registered by someone in a state that is very leanant, obtain a title and then transfer it to VA. Obviously it would have to be somebody you trust.
Try this for $9.99:
http://vincarhistory.com/creditCard.php?vin=JS1GM51A5P2101700
Strange no one will go to the effort of helping and doing the right thing. Running the last plates should be something they would do. I bet on-line you can get records for that license plate. Might cost $10 but worth a try.
Carfax shows nothing? Expensive and they say 1 record.
This one says 3 records exist:
http://www.autocheck.com/consumers/gatewayAction.do?siteID=3403&WT.mc_id=3403&vin=js1gm51a5p2101700
Try this one:
http://vinfreecheck.com/
Another thing to try is to NOT ask what you can do.
Say you bought a storage locker or house or garage and found this 1993 abandoned motorcycle and want to license it. Get an "unknown owner" title.
If they find no records for it, it would seem hard to say you don't own it or have it in your possession. You have it. Not reported stolen or totaled so why won't they work with you?
I'm tempted to walk into the local licensing office with the VIN and say I was thinking of buying it. Is it stolen or totaled? Then see what t hey say. I did that before for a parts bike with a farkled up title (so it ended up as a parts bike rather than filing the "unknown owner" papers and that's how I found out about that process!)
This one says 3 records for $29.95
https://www.autocheck.com/consumers/creditCardAction.do?multiButton.y=154891469&multiButton.x=990038907&siteID=0&vin=js1gm51a5p2101700&sslRedirect=noRedirect
KBB has 3 records. I say spring for it and see what they show. also sites will run the plate for a fee. Seems worth it. If you do your homework, there should be someone in the DMV to assist you. Otherwise, go to a different state.
https://www.autocheck.com/consumers/creditCardAction.do?WT.mc_id=5175&singleButton.y=-1141936852&singleButton.x=1983564069&siteID=5175&vin=js1gm51a5p2101700&sslRedirect=noRedirect
Maybe a friend at a dealership as access to these sources? It would be interesting to see the 3 reports where CarFax says 1 report and it seems someone on your end found 1 report which was the delivery to the dealer.
have you contacted that original dealer?
I dont know how Id contact or even find the original dealer :/
But I might try your storage locker/ house attempt when I go back on break.
You said CarFax shows it shipped to a dealer? Isn't the dealer listed?
Curious about the other places that show 3 records for that VIN.
Don't people realize that sometimes a computer record could get lost? :dunno_black:
If the original dealer doesn't exist and no other records show, I guess it is just lazy DMV and government people that don't want to just do a title. Here they can look up even a partial VIN. Could be the VIN was entered wrong on some transaction and now it is lost. I had that happen when someone left out a digit on the VIN. Records were found and even the VIN corrected in the system.
Maybe time to call your local politicians or a TV station with a problem solver?
When you run the plate, does anything come up?
The Carfax didn't say. It just said march 1993 shipped from manufacturer to original dealer. And that was it.
As fas as the plates nothing came back. So I don't quite know what I'll do since I have no clue where to start but I might buy one of the "3" reports first.
I'd buy one with 3 - as all probably have the same 3.
CarFax seems lame if it doesn't list the dealer.
There are pay-for services that do plates.
After all, if you have a real VA license plate - the state MUST have a record of it. If not, then computer records were lost somewhere. A clever person might check adjacent plates and see if they, too, are missing from the records. And again it can be someone typing in a wrong number somewhere.
Not sure if you said, but did the person you bought it from ever have a registration for thee plates? If so, then they can be looked up by that person's name.
It looks more like a block of computer data got lost somewhere along the line. Probably corrupt data or data lost when someone wrote bad database software. Too bad you have to pay the price for computer problems.
What's the plate number, state and year? (If you don't mind saying so some of us can browse in our spare time)
The PO could have just run a plate without registration, but the state inspector is supposed to look at the registration when he performs an anual inspection. I bought my 94 in late May-early June (not operational). A week or so later I got it operational and transferred the title and got plates. Now the DMV says I bought it a year earlier, even though my title shows the previous title number. It's not worth the crap to get them to straighten it out.
regards
Mech
No he didn't have a registration for it either. He was just some redneck and I bought the bike for 100 bucks. Here's the plates
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Quote from: aaronmact on October 29, 2013, 02:35:26 PM
No he didn't have a registration for it either. He was just some redneck and I bought the bike for 100 bucks. Here's the plates
In some of "those" cases, I'd first register the thing before deciding if it was going to live or die ...
I'd do a vin cut job ... in any case try it otherwise, some states are simply put, harda$$es.
Cool.
Buddha.
You may even look into getting it titled as a reconstructed/specially constructed/replica vehicle.
just trying to throw out additional possibilities.
What about the abandoned vehicle process? You can do it on-line. $25 fee.
http://www.dmv.virginia.gov/vehicles/#abandoned.html
https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/apps/AVP/AbandonedVehicles_FAQ.aspx
What is the AVP?
State law automates DMV's AVP, making it easier for people to remove and dispose of an abandoned motor vehicle, trailer, or manufactured home left on the highway and public property, or private property. For a $25 AVP fee, information about an abandoned vehicle, trailer, or manufactured home in your possession may be entered into the AVP on dmvNOW.com. Not all vehicles and users are eligible to utilize the AVP. Vehicles which qualify for a Mechanic's and Storage Lien may not be processed as abandoned vehicles. The website explains the legal requirements for vehicle removal and disposition. Owners of vehicles, trailers or manufactured homes that are considered abandoned may be notified by a certified letter from DMV that they must reclaim their vehicle or trailer within 15 days (120 days for manufactured homes). If it is not reclaimed, it may be auctioned, re-titled or demolished after an additional 21 days.
Who is eligible to use the AVP on DMV's website?
Individuals, businesses, or government agencies in possession of a vehicle, trailer or manufactured home that meets the definition of abandoned
How does the online AVP work?
The new procedure allows those in possession of an abandoned vehicle to initiate a records request on www.dmvNOW.com. If a Virginia vehicle owner or lienholder is found during the records request, DMV will send a certified letter advising them to remove the vehicle from the property.
If no vehicle owner is found in Virginia, DMV will provide that specific state's contact information for use in a letter requesting the vehicle's owners or lienholders, provided the state participates in the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System.
Usually that abandoned vehicle process they send a registered mail to the previous registered owner on record.
The response/or lack there of from that delivered mail makes it to where it will be titled to your name.
If the letter never gets delivered, or it does not "exist" you wont get squat.
Cool.
Buddha.
Sounds to me like this thing was simply never "sold" by the original dealership. I bought my GS after it sat in the crate at a dealer for 1 year. If I hadn't bought it, who knows where it would have ended up. They probably had an MSO at one point, but perhaps the bike was loaned out or used by friends or shop employees because it didn't sell. I know some guys with a bike shop and this has happened with a couple of cheaper bikes. It becomes the loaner for several years and eventually trades hands and ends up with bogus plates on it.
If you know the dealership, you should definitely contact them.
Dan
Here they allow 3 years for the original owner to show up. No response or no address is irrelevant. It is on public record. If you can't contact anyone or no one shows up, in 3 years it is yours free and clear. Until then you do get a dirty title and a license plate.
The law has to allow for situations where there is no one out there, who was there is dead, or whomever is out there doesn't care to respond.
There are other ways to get a title. "Custom Vehicle" comes in to play. That's how you license a totally hand built bike (like Custom Choppers and so forth). Though those usually would require an inspection to be road worthy.
im telling you, Find a titled frame and transplant everything. retain original bill of sale as proof of purchase for the engine as parts, everything else that makes up the bike is un traceable.
Quote from: Blueknyt on October 29, 2013, 05:23:31 PM
im telling you, Find a titled frame and transplant everything. retain original bill of sale as proof of purchase for the engine as parts, everything else that makes up the bike is un traceable.
That really would be an easy thing. Since you paid $100 for the bike, even at $300 for a titled frame you're way ahead.
Motor serial numbers are not on titles around here nor any I have seen. I guess because bike motors get changed out too often to bother tracing. Since there's no paperwork on your $100 bike, then get a frame. Move the parts. And go riding. If you were in Seattle, I'd consider selling you one of my spare frames. They show up on ebay. I've bought 3 that way. No, make that 4 frames. No, 5 frames. There's Frank, Phenix, the Husky bike and 2 more in the works. Never more that $350 and that was Phenix that was already cleaned and repainted. Others more like $150-$199 plus postage. always a clean title. Insure title is clean.
I'll probably just buy another frame since this is all such a hassle. Just wasn't sure if they came with titles. But I bought the bike for 100 and dumped 5-600 (If not more) into new parts or parts to get it to run. That's why I was trying to find a cheaper solution
The other side of the coin.
1962 Corvette, restored to 100% condition is sold at an auction. Ownership records show the same vin number was stolen from a used car lot in Florida 25 years earlier. The guy who owned the used car lot got the Corvette back, even though it was sold for $53K at the auction. The parties involved in the restoration lose the car and every penny of parts and every hour of labor spent fixing the car, which was on the lot for $2500 when stolen.
regrads
Mech
true.. and that's something I want to avoid. I know I've put quite a bit of my own money in (being this my first official vehicle without any parental help), so I'm afraid of taking a loss, either property wise or monetary wise. Have any of you ever dealt with "usedcycleparts" on ebay? I believe they're based in Charlotte, Nc. They have a frame for 120, I asked about a title and he says he has a title, but the guy he bought it from signed his name on it.
If you do a frame transplant get the frame powdercoated your favorite color, no sense going to all this effort and not do that, the frame is painted with watercolor from the factory ... you want to get that replaced with something that may stand up to elements for more than a week.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: aaronmact on October 30, 2013, 07:12:01 AM
true.. and that's something I want to avoid. I know I've put quite a bit of my own money in (being this my first official vehicle without any parental help), so I'm afraid of taking a loss, either property wise or monetary wise. Have any of you ever dealt with "usedcycleparts" on ebay? I believe they're based in Charlotte, Nc. They have a frame for 120, I asked about a title and he says he has a title, but the guy he bought it from signed his name on it.
I would not buy with a questionable title. No way. You would now have a title not in your name. More problems. The seller can transfer the title into his name so it is clean.
Otherwise, look elsewhere.
You want 1989-2000 so your tank and tail plastics fit . Be sure of a clean title. Not a salvage title or "slvg" (usually salvage requires extra inspections and hassles). Motors are not on titles so you needn't worry about your motor number.
Try this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/00-Suzuki-GS500E-Frame-Chassis-Clean-EZ-Reg-Not-Slvg-GS500-GS-500-/130999142788?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e80284984&vxp=mtr
Quote from: Turd Ferguson on October 29, 2013, 05:11:26 PM
Sounds to me like this thing was simply never "sold" by the original dealership. I bought my GS after it sat in the crate at a dealer for 1 year. If I hadn't bought it, who knows where it would have ended up. They probably had an MSO at one point, but perhaps the bike was loaned out or used by friends or shop employees because it didn't sell. I know some guys with a bike shop and this has happened with a couple of cheaper bikes. It becomes the loaner for several years and eventually trades hands and ends up with bogus plates on it.
If you know the dealership, you should definitely contact them.
Dan
My gut tells me that this is along the right lines. It's common practice, at least here, to buy new bikes without titles for use as race bikes. Generally it's done to save a few bucks - dealership is happy to do less work, etc. This is a completely legal arrangement, with the consequence that the bikes are impossible/extremely difficult to ever register down the line. So it's possible that the dealer sold it in good faith without a title for some reason.
I would contact Suzuki US, explaining your situation, and see if they can tell you what dealer the bike was shipped to.
My gut also tells me that if it does turn out that the bike was never titled to begin with, you're never going to be able to register it (but I don't know enough about US law to say this is definitely the case)
forgive my ignorance but what is suzuki na? Suzuki national? And I feel the same way about the frame I found, Ive figure Ive had enough bad luck dealing with dodgy titles.
Well everyone Ive had a slight break through. I called suzuki international and gave them my vin, and I was informed my bike was shipped to highland springs Virginia. Unfortunately they say they might not keep their records that long.
i realize you have this urge to finnish this path that you have been on. on one hand i applaud your tenacity, on the other things could still turn poorly as the full history of this bike is so monkey *#$%ed you could be left holding a very empty bag and no legal ground to stand on. you paid 100$ for the bike, put another 600$ into it, another 1-300$ for a titled frame is not unreasonable. you would have in effect, bought and built a nice clean bike from the ground up, learning valuable things along the way all for around $1000 considering the work you have put into it and all the new parts. you would probly have a 2000$ bike on your hands that you personaly put every nut and bolt together. being able to register,insure and ride the bike would be the payoff making that $1000 you spent well worth it.
exactly. Part Of me just wants the pay off fro chasing it so long. I just got in touch with the original dealer. Unsurprisingly he didnt wanna root through his paper work. He told me to apply for a storage lien ( abandoned vehicle). He said that's what they would do.
You can do the AV procedure on-line per my post a couple days ago.
No paper trail probably means no one would ever show up to claim it.
Its going to come down to what else are you willing to go through while the bike sits useless. money and time spent with more paper trails and hoops to jump, or time and money spent getting that titled frame and transfering parts? all the grief you went through already, isnt it time to make some headway with a known desired ending? Get the titled frame, get to wrenching, and when the last bolt is tightend it will be the one holding the plate on the rear ready for a ride.
Quote from: Blueknyt on November 01, 2013, 06:00:23 PM
Its going to come down to what else are you willing to go through while the bike sits useless. money and time spent with more paper trails and hoops to jump, or time and money spent getting that titled frame and transfering parts? all the grief you went through already, isnt it time to make some headway with a known desired ending? Get the titled frame, get to wrenching, and when the last bolt is tightend it will be the one holding the plate on the rear ready for a ride.
Bingo