Asking because I have not yet removed them from either wheel. Currently they are soaking in Kroil since I heard they tend to stick.
If removal goes well and I press in the new ones, is there a ridge or a mark showing how deep they need to go in? I want to know in advance in case I need to mark the depth before hand.
Firstly, with regards to getting them out – I used the motion pro bearing removal tools , The one with the different size split inserts that you fit a big flattened Rod into and knock it out from the other side. I found this really easy and minimises any possible damage to the seating surface.
My first approach was to seat the bearings as deep as they could go against the initial shoulder. However I've found that the separating tube between the two bearings was extending the inner race outwards, I.e. It seemed like the bearings were too close together and the tube was pushing the inner race out which would cause alignment and premature wear problems.
I had to slightly back one of the bearings out to relieve that strain. When the inner races were snug against the spacing tube but did not feel extended I figured it was okay and put it back together.
In retrospect I would use a vernier calliper and measure the distance that each bearing protrudes before removing them. Then as you get close to the final position go slowly and check often.
It's really quite easy!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Quote from: bmf on November 18, 2013, 08:26:15 PM
Firstly, with regards to getting them out – I used the motion pro bearing removal tools , The one with the different size split inserts that you fit a big flattened Rod into and knock it out from the other side. I found this really easy and minimises any possible damage to the seating surface.
My first approach was to seat the bearings as deep as they could go against the initial shoulder. However I've found that the separating tube between the two bearings was extending the inner race outwards, I.e. It seemed like the bearings were too close together and the tube was pushing the inner race out which would cause alignment and premature wear problems.
I had to slightly back one of the bearings out to relieve that strain. When the inner races were snug against the spacing tube but did not feel extended I figured it was okay and put it back together.
In retrospect I would use a vernier calliper and measure the distance that each bearing protrudes before removing them. Then as you get close to the final position go slowly and check often.
It's really quite easy!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Excellent suggestion on using the vernier caliper to measure the depth beforehand. I'm sad to hear that it's possible to press them in incorrectly, though... seems like bad design.
I'm with Jack on this one - drive them out with a punch. And I've tapped in bearings before and can offer this advice if you try it: keep the wheel itself warm (in your house or wherever) and throw the bearings in a freezer for 45-60 minutes. Use a large socket that only touches the outer race (I think I used a 1.25" socket?) and make sure it begins to go in straight. If it goes in crooked, it can get stuck. When tapping it in, it will be a high pitch sound until it gets all the way in - then you'll get more of a dull thud when you hit it. Or just press them in.
I was going to add to my post Rich referred to and deleted it instead by mistake so I'll repost. :icon_lol:
I drive old bearings out reaching thru with a long punch or screwdriver and hammer them out. New bearings are then driven in with a socket against the outer race and bottomed in the counter bores with the spacer between them.
When the wheel is put on the bike and the axle nut is tightened down it's all clamped up tight together thru the bearings and spacers. The length of the spacer between the wheel bearings is slightly shorter than the distance between the bearing inner races so the clamping of them tight together will give the wheel bearings the proper preload.
They go in as far as they can go in.
What is EXTREMELY important is to remember to put in the spacer that goes between the bearings. THAT and ONLY THAT is what will keep the bearings in the right spacing and prevent the hubs from getting pressed in causing the bearings to be destroyed.
There are spacers in and outside of the rear wheel. I've seen the spacer on the inside of the cush drive get left out. Then also the one on the outside of it.
Its very difficult not to seat them correctly, the outer races go hard up against a shoulder on the bottom of the housing. It will be obvious when they are home. :dunno_black:
The inner spacers are not really for locating the bearings, nor for providing preload. In this case its the exact opposite, they prevent preload from occurring.
Preloading is way of reducing internal clearances within certain bearings which in some cases is vital for certain types to function correctly such as angular contact or taper rollers, as found in the headstock. Its done by holding the rotating elements together to very very precise amounts. Too much or unwanted preload will reduce these clearances and lead to improper operation and premature failure.
62 and 63 series single row ball bearings are good for radial loads ie the weight of the bike pushing down when its vertical but they cant handle heavy axial loads which is in effect........preload! These are the forces that act on the wheel and axlebolt when the bike is banked over and want to push the inner race of the bearing out of the outer race. :dunno_black:
62 and 63 bearings are manufactured with varying degrees of internal clearance and the tolerance marked on the designation number. CN, C1, C2 or C3. C3. CN being `normal` and C3 having the greatest clearance. Wheel bearings are CN.
The spacers clamp the inner races together, hold them in place on the axlebolt and transmit the forces into the forks/swingarm where they are absorbed. With nothing holding the inner races in place the bearings would be subject to a degree of preload they cannot cope with and soon fail.
Yes...the length of the spacer is critical, but no its not to provide preload, its to hold the inner race in a position relative to the outer race so an unwanted preload condition cant happen.
(http://www.skf.com/images/RADIAL-BRG.jpg)
F1 represents radial loading
Fa represents axial loading
Now here comes the kicker. Lets ask ourselves a question......if wheel bearing preload is critical and needs to be set to a specific torque or clearance why isn't it quoted in the manual along with a detailed instructions in the way the procedure for setting up the taper-roller headrace bearing arrangement is :icon_question:
I faced the same issue as bmf when I changed my front wheel bearings.
Initially I drove the new bearings home hard into their recess as far as they would go (big socket hitting on the outer race). The spacer put so much load on the inner race that the new bearings where locked up. I had to back out the bearings slightly to relive the load on the inner races.
Either the spacer is too long or the bearing recess is too deep. This is on an 2006.
I would advise caution when seating the new bearings, seating them so the spacer is just held captive by the inner races and the bearings turn freely.
Duurgh... just wasted my time repeating what Rich said! Ah well. :cookoo:
As others have said, use/make a GOOD drift that's just a little smaller in diameter than the bearing housing and contacts the outer race only.
THE HEAT SPANNER (good for lots of jobs).
So do yourself a big favour... put the new bearing in a polythene bag, and stick it in the fridge for an hour or two, and if you have a heat gun, warm all around the bearing housing. Once you've had a bearing slip into it's housing by doing this you'll never do it any other way. The heat expands the housing and the fridge contracts the bearing. Less force required, less chance of damaging the housing.
When you tap it in (lightly if you've used the heat spanner and even if you didn't) starting it going in squarely is essential.
-Jools
There has to be a slight distance between the bottom of outer race and the bottom of the housing on the RH side.
It is normal in bearing arrangements like this to have a fixed end and a floating end. It allows for thermal expansion and gives the axlebolt and bearing somewhere to go without forcing the races apart and causing preload if things get hot and expand.
If you smack the bearings home as far as they will go with a FBG on both sides they will be preloaded and fail, the RH bearing needs to just sit against the top of the spacer tube. If you use the factory tool it draws the bearing into the correct position and sets the distance automatically but no one outside of a dealership ever does so it needs to be done by feel. Tap the RH bearing in most of the way by its outer race then finish it off by tapping on the inner race to sit it up against the spacer so it is free to turn correctly. Do it this way and there will be no preload on the bearings to bind them up.
Section 6-4 of the Suzuki manual covers the procedure but I cant post it up from this PC :dunno_black:
EDIT....yes I can.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2vvjt5k.jpg)
I use the center spacer sleeve to make sure its seated on both sides. I dont heat and freeze etc etc, but I do have a damn good drift and a seating tool - the outer race of the bearing ground a wee bit on the outside and welded up to a plate and a stem in the center), just drop it in the wheel with the new bearing and hammer it in.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: sledge on November 19, 2013, 02:27:49 AM
Its very difficult not to seat them correctly, the outer races go hard up against a shoulder on the bottom of the housing. It will be obvious when they are home. :dunno_black:
The inner spacers are not really for locating the bearings, nor for providing preload. In this case its the exact opposite, they prevent preload from occurring.
Preloading is way of reducing internal clearances within certain bearings which in some cases is vital for certain types to function correctly such as angular contact or taper rollers, as found in the headstock. Its done by holding the rotating elements together to very very precise amounts. Too much or unwanted preload will reduce these clearances and lead to improper operation and premature failure.
62 and 63 series single row ball bearings are good for radial loads ie the weight of the bike pushing down when its vertical but they cant handle heavy axial loads which is in effect........preload! These are the forces that act on the wheel and axlebolt when the bike is banked over and want to push the inner race of the bearing out of the outer race. :dunno_black:
62 and 63 bearings are manufactured with varying degrees of internal clearance and the tolerance marked on the designation number. CN, C1, C2 or C3. C3. CN being `normal` and C3 having the greatest clearance. Wheel bearings are CN.
The spacers clamp the inner races together, hold them in place on the axlebolt and transmit the forces into the forks/swingarm where they are absorbed. With nothing holding the inner races in place the bearings would be subject to a degree of preload they cannot cope with and soon fail.
Yes...the length of the spacer is critical, but no its not to provide preload, its to hold the inner race in a position relative to the outer race so an unwanted preload condition cant happen.
(http://www.skf.com/images/RADIAL-BRG.jpg)
F1 represents radial loading
Fa represents axial loading
Now here comes the kicker. Lets ask ourselves a question......if wheel bearing preload is critical and needs to be set to a specific torque or clearance why isn't it quoted in the manual along with a detailed instructions in the way the procedure for setting up the taper-roller headrace bearing arrangement is :icon_question:
This is incredible information. I completely understand what you are explaining and that makes it much clearer as to what I need to achieve when seating the new bearings.
The center spacer sleeve and the whole axle and what not make sure the axial load is near 0.
You wanna ruin the bearings in about 3 sec ... Install it without that spacer sleeve.
Cool.
Buddha.
Not quite......
You cant make dynamic forces go away except by opposing them, action and reaction are equal and opposite and all that.
There will always be some axial load on the bearings when the axle goes out of the horizontal. The spacers direct the majority of that load into the forks and swingarm where it is absorbed instead of through the bearings where it will cause serious damage to them and as you say........destroy them very quickly.
Quote from: adidasguy on November 19, 2013, 12:00:43 AM
They go in as far as they can go in.
What is EXTREMELY important is to remember to put in the spacer that goes between the bearings. THAT and ONLY THAT is what will keep the bearings in the right spacing and prevent the hubs from getting pressed in causing the bearings to be destroyed.
There are spacers in and outside of the rear wheel. I've seen the spacer on the inside of the cush drive get left out. Then also the one on the outside of it.
excellence, as always.
i'll only add that using all-thread + a couple of washers the right size for the OUTTER RACE will press the bearings in with zero stress to the bore, spacer, bearing, or your fingers.
when the nut on the all thread stops, it's done.
check the internal spacer with your pinky: if it slops up/down, it's not fully seated on the outter race of the bearing. if it's snug between the INNER RACES, or barely moves up/down, it's fine. install the wheel on the bike and enjoy another 60-80,000 miles of service.
also, if you ever need to make spacers for a wheel swap, 1" pipe, thick wall, and a pipe cutter works wonders. within .003" of stock is easily accomplished.
(hint, sometimes people forget the bearing spacers (shops too!) and you find out an hour later when the bearings are toast)
I've changed all 4 of the wheel bearings on my 02 GS after having put 80k miles on my 97 GS and similar miles on the Hondas before the GSs without ever changing a motorcycle wheel bearing before. Just make sure the new bearings are seated all the way in to the bottom and the proper spacer is between them. The sound will change as it hits bottom and you will know it by the ring.
Quote from: adidasguy on November 19, 2013, 12:00:43 AM
They go in as far as they can go in.
What is EXTREMELY important is to remember to put in the spacer that goes between the bearings. THAT and ONLY THAT is what will keep the bearings in the right spacing and prevent the hubs from getting pressed in causing the bearings to be destroyed.
There are spacers in and outside of the rear wheel. I've seen the spacer on the inside of the cush drive get left out. Then also the one on the outside of it.
And that is exactly why I changed the rear bearings on my 02 GS, spacer inside the cush drive was left out by shop that mounted and balanced a new tire and I didn't catch it.
When the axle nut is properly tighten down the bearings will have some preload and the wheel cannot be moved side to side which leads me to the changing of my front bearings on the 02.
Riding home one very wet day I noticed I had no front brake for a second or so until the pads wiped the rotor dry. When I got home and put the bike up I discovered the wheel would shake laterally a bit so the pads didn't ride on the rotor to keep it wiped dry. Axle nut was still tight so new bearings were installed. Once all dried out the brake functioned normal again until the new bearings arrived.
By the way ohgood's pinky test is valid, use it. +1
If you ever drove a car with drum front brakes in the wet you'll know why all cars including the least expensive ones went to disc front brakes as soon as they were developed. Getting one front drum brake wet and hitting the brakes could be a tragic experience.
If you've ever noticed the piece pressed into the GS wheel bores on one side that is size chosen at assembly so the outer races will be accurately spaced and the bearings will be properly and lightly preloaded when the axle nut is tighten. By the way, the full lateral load of cornering is carried thru the bearings to the inner races and spacers before it is transmitted to the forks and swing arm.
In sledge's diagram, does:
LEFT = CLUTCH SIDE
RIGHT = THROTTLE SIDE
?
In my mind left and right side are as when sitting on the bike. Left and right is correct on that diagram but the indicated gap is not in my opinion. It's shown that way in my 89-99 Suzuki shop manual and my 02 Clymer manual but I chose to ignore them, both bearing outer races should be fully seated and then checked with ohgood's little pinky.
Jack? regardless of how many thousand miles on how many thousand bikes in how many thousand years you have done......two single row bearings are never `locked` into position and preloaded on the same shaft if it rotates at a relatively high speed, it defies all the design fundamentals and good engineering practice and it will lead to premature failure.
It doesn't matter if its a on a Japanese bike, a German electric-motor, or an American compressor, the application is the same, one end has to float in the housing for the setup to be reliable. If on low speed applications a small amount of preload IS needed to stiffen things up and prevent vibration its done by placing a wave washer or a Bellville washer in the gap in the float end housing or on the opposite side of the floating end bearing so it acts against the outer race pressing it against the inner.
If there were taper roller or angular contact bearings in there it would be a different story, they DO need to be pre-loaded to specific values to function correctly (like head stock bearings do) and there are several ways off doing it.
Do some research :dunno_black:
Here is a starter..... http://www.tungpei.com/UserFiles/File/ch3.pdf .....and this is 101 stuff.
The first diagram shows a typical arrangement consisting of two single row bearings.......see the gap at the bottom of the housing, does it look familiar?
In the GS wheelhub the RH bearing can float in its housing, its shown in the manual and its the way the setup is designed.....and because it floats it cannot be preloaded :dunno_black:
Knock it off sledge, you know that I no longer reply to you and have no regard for anything you have to say. Over and out!
Quote from: gsJack on November 19, 2013, 03:36:23 PM
Knock it off sledge, you know that I no longer reply to you and have no regard for anything you have to say. Over and out!
A knowledgeable,BUT annoying little fella. :icon_rolleyes:
(http://cdn.business2community.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/wikipedia-expert.jpg)
Quote from: fetor56 on November 19, 2013, 04:34:51 PM
Quote from: gsJack on November 19, 2013, 03:36:23 PM
Knock it off sledge, you know that I no longer reply to you and have no regard for anything you have to say. Over and out!
A knowledgeable,BUT annoying little fella. :icon_rolleyes:
I have Sledge on my ignore list. I don't see his posts and life is so much better now. Kind of like getting that annoying pebble out of your shoe.
Quote from: gsJack on November 19, 2013, 03:36:23 PM
Knock it off sledge, you know that I no longer reply to you and have no regard for anything you have to say. Over and out!
I know you don't Jack, but unlike me others hang on to your every word, if you said the sky will turn pink at midday, most of the people in here will have very stiff necks by 12:15 :...People just don't stop to question you, and that why I don't like to see you giving misleading info out, because it might turn round and bite them on the ass :dunno_black:
When it comes to telling people how to take things apart and put them back together you are up there at the top, same as Adidasguy but when it comes to telling people how and why parts are made, designed, function, assembled etc in the way they are and how they work in conjunction with each other its not always the case.....again same as Adidasguy :dunno_black:
I have invited you to research the subject of bearing arrangements and comment further but it seems you don't want to. I will invite anyone else asking the same question to do the same and find out for themselves what is right and what is wrong :dunno_black:
Over and out :thumb:
Quote from: sledge on November 19, 2013, 02:27:49 AM
Its very difficult not to seat them correctly, the outer races go hard up against a shoulder on the bottom of the housing. It will be obvious when they are home.
Quote from: sledge on November 19, 2013, 06:44:37 AM
There has to be a slight distance between the bottom of outer race and the bottom of the housing on the RH side.
Quote from: sledge on November 19, 2013, 02:27:49 AM
Now here comes the kicker. Lets ask ourselves a question......if wheel bearing preload is critical and needs to be set to a specific torque or clearance why isn't it quoted in the manual along with a detailed instructions in the way the procedure for setting up the taper-roller headrace bearing arrangement is :icon_question:
Quote from: gsJack on November 19, 2013, 11:29:58 AM
If you've ever noticed the piece pressed into the GS wheel bores on one side that is size chosen at assembly so the outer races will be accurately spaced and the bearings will be properly and lightly preloaded when the axle nut is tighten. By the way, the full lateral load of cornering is carried thru the bearings to the inner races and spacers before it is transmitted to the forks and swing arm.
Quote from: Janx101 on November 19, 2013, 05:31:45 PM
(http://cdn.business2community.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/wikipedia-expert.jpg)
You do have a way of saying things Janx. :icon_lol:
So what happened to `over and out` :D
Sorry about the typo Jack, it was getting late over here at the time. Would you like me to go back and edit it for you to avoid any further confusion :thumb:
Now....The real question.
Have you done any research on the subject of single row deep groove bearings and fixed/floating arrangements yet..........OR are you going to carry on disputing what I, Suzuki themselves and engineering convention say is right and instead desperately try to find minor mistakes and inaccuracies in my comments in an attempt to try and gain some credibility back?
I will be happy to give you some more links and pointers if you want and will again say if anyone else out there wants to know right from wrong they can research it for themselves and draw their own conclusions :dunno_black:
You have seem to have the same issues as Addidasguy does Jack in that you cant accept that sometimes you are wrong, you don't like it when its pointed out to you and you refuse to accept the proof when its presented to you.......... Unfortunately that's your problem, not mine :dunno_black:
i've read it a few times, and tried to find where either of you are wrong. i don't see it. there are insignificant contradictions in some posts, but that's about it.
as far as different types of bearings, yes, there are MANY different types of bearings. i don't see how a floating bearing on one side will benefit the wheel setup other than causing premature wear or damage to the opposite bearing, but only IF THERE WAS AN ISSUE WITH SPACING to begin with.
now, if you get those spacer lengths wrong wether it's the internal or external ones, yes , there will be problems down the line.
this is why i mentioned testing the tension on the center spacer with a pinky.
if it's jammed in place and does not move at all, there -might- be an issue with being over tightened axle nut, at some time, or a damaged internal spacer, or both.
if it's loose and floppy, one or both of the bearings may be beyond service life, and need replacing or a spacing issue with the bores vs internal spacer.
some folks even install the wrong bearings (here, we have a reason to consult the manual) and end up with an assembly stack up problem, but might not know if for some time.
but keep in mind, i'm running a front gs500 wheel BACKWARDS, with a larger axle (and bearings) fitted with tires too small, or a bike not intended for 17" wheels, and spacers cut out of conduit and flat filed to size.
so it's kinda like staying in a holiday inn express last night.
or wikipedia
;-)
Quote from: ohgood on November 20, 2013, 09:30:44 AM
as far as different types of bearings, yes, there are MANY different types of bearings. i don't see how a floating bearing on one side will benefit the wheel setup
The floating arrangement is for two reasons.
Thermal expansion or contraction: The bearings need somewhere to go if the shaft they are fitted on shrinks or expands due to heat/cold, even if its only a couple of thou`. If the shaft grows by say 0.003` when its hot or (shrinks by the same amount) when cold it will push the inner race 0.003 into the outer race if the outer face is fixed.....that's unwanted preload and leads to premature failure, usually flaking or cage failure.
Manufacturing tolerances: Bearing are manufactured to tolernaces in microns, the distance between the bottom of the bearing housings through the hub and the length of the various spacer tubes is not so an allowance has to be made somewhere
Have a glance through this...... http://www.skf.com/files/259501.pdf
I was going to suggest Jack has a flick through it also :D
"The guidance and support of a rotating shaft requires at least two bearings arranged at a certain distance from each other. Depending on the application, a decision is made between a locating/non-locating bearing arrangement, an adjusted bearing arrangement and a floating bearing arrangement.
Locating/non-locating
bearing arrangement
On a shaft supported by two radial bearings, the distances between the bearing seats on the shaft and in the housing frequently do not coincide as a result of manufacturing tolerances. The distances may also change as a result of temperature increases during operation. These differences in distance are compensated in the non-locating bearing"
From here........ http://medias.ina.com/medias/en!hp.tg.cat/tg_hr*ST4_1652155275
...and this comes from a manufacturer
:dunno_black:
Done a few hundred ot this type of bearing set ups on cars. You bottom out the outer race in the hub on both sides, of course with the spacer installed, then torque down the nut to specs. On autos you stake the nut. On bikes you don't stake the nut but accomplsh the same with a cotter key.
After 60,000 hours including owning my own shop for 28,000 of those 60k, I find if I read Jacks posts, I learn the difference between my own personal experience and the experience of Jacks and his way of communicating that experience which brings me to his level of specific experience combined with my own personal experience. The cumulative total of those two experiences is greater than 99% of most people who have been in the trade for over 30 years, which works fine for me.
I find that if we disagree on any process or procedure (very very rarely), I still benefit from his different approach and technique. I might even find a better refinement of my procedure from his imput (different perspective).
Now when someone comes here and tries to say I follow anyone blindly, they simply do not know me, my experience, or my deliberate apporach to problem resolution. Generally that is a waste of time and I have yet to find a single example of it not being a waste of time.
regards
Mech
Quote from: Old Mechanic on November 20, 2013, 11:49:11 AM
Done a few hundred ot this type of bearing set ups on cars. You bottom out the outer race in the hub on both sides, of course with the spacer installed, then torque down the nut to specs. On autos you stake the nut. On bikes you don't stake the nut but accomplsh the same with a cotter key.
Lets not get confused here..........Unlike bikes cars generally use a back to back taper roller bearing arrangement in the hubs on which preload IS critical. It is achieved by applying a specified torque to the nut and locking it down in the way you describe
Never seen a chain drive bike that uses taper rollers in the hub but there might be one out there somewhere :dunno_black:
Split pin, (or cotter pin as some call it) on the GS is just for retaining the nut and preventing a nasty accident, some countries construction and use regulations demand one is fitted when the bike is first sold.
Quote from: Old Mechanic on November 20, 2013, 11:49:11 AM
I find that if we disagree on any process or procedure (very very rarely), I still benefit from his different approach and technique. I might even find a better refinement of my procedure from his imput (different perspective).
regards
Mech
+1 to Jack and applies to sledge too. I find that my history with my bike does not seem to mirror jack's, but then I never got a bike that wasn't used and abused well before I got it ... sledge while nit picky has a range of technical range putting him in a league of his own.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: sledge on November 20, 2013, 09:56:36 AM
Quote from: ohgood on November 20, 2013, 09:30:44 AM
as far as different types of bearings, yes, there are MANY different types of bearings. i don't see how a floating bearing on one side will benefit the wheel setup
The floating arrangement is for two reasons.
Thermal expansion or contraction: The bearings need somewhere to go if the shaft they are fitted on shrinks or expands due to heat/cold, even if its only a couple of thou`. If the shaft grows by say 0.003` when its hot or (shrinks by the same amount) when cold it will push the inner race 0.003 into the outer race if the outer face is fixed.....that's unwanted preload and leads to premature failure, usually flaking or cage failure.
Manufacturing tolerances: Bearing are manufactured to tolernaces in microns, the distance between the bottom of the bearing housings through the hub and the length of the various spacer tubes is not so an allowance has to be made somewhere
Have a glance through this...... http://www.skf.com/files/259501.pdf
I was going to suggest Jack has a flick through it also :D
OK, now you're bullshitting to try and sound knowledgeable.
You know, our should know, that heat is not a problem, or consideration, in these bearings' application.
If the shaft grows 3 thou from heat, so do the races, the alloy hub purply grows 5.
I can pull PDFs out of my ass all day long too, but it will only serve to make us both look like one.
You owe jack an apology for your bullshit today. I don't need one, our care.
If you want to debate what I suggested earlier, fine. I won't continue with any conversation that serves plainly and mainly to degrade folks here though.
And I never specified tapered rollers in my comments. In fact I was talking about ball bearings like those in the rear of a Nissan Z car as well as many FWD setups, which also used caged ball bearings. Also manual Nissan transmissions as well as other applications. Most of the tapered tollers I worked with were the older generation non driven hub over axle types, which are the basis of a Patent I hold for an infinitely variable in wheel hydraulic drive, loosely based on the WW1 era rotary aircraft engine which incorporated a fixed crankshaft with the block, cylinders, con rods, and pistons rotating around the fixed crank on ball bearings.
regards
Mech
Quote from: ohgood on November 20, 2013, 01:17:26 PM
OK, now you're bullshitting to try and sound knowledgeable.
You owe jack an apology for your bullshit today.
Forgive me for saying so but you sound like another one who doesn't like to proven wrong.
The link which contains the statement that mirrors mine comes from the Schaeffler product catalogue, Schaeffler is the parent company to INA and nancy boy, two of the worlds largest producers of rolling bearings......If you don't believe what the manufacturers themselves say who will you believe :dunno_black:
http://www.schaeffler.co.uk/content.schaeffler.co.uk/en/index.jsp
As for apologies for BS........I am not the one spouting the BS :dunno_black:
EDIT....For nancy boy read F.A.G. :D :D :D
Quote from: Old Mechanic on November 20, 2013, 02:29:11 PM
And I never specified tapered rollers in my comments. In fact I was talking about ball bearings like those in the rear of a Nissan Z car as well as many FWD setups, which also used caged ball bearings.
If they were in a car wheel hub I suspect they were probably angular contact bearings, possibly 52 or 53 series, Very similar to single row deep groove but able to handle a lot more axial load.....and like taper roller rollers they too need to be preloaded to function effectively.
http://www.ntnamericas.com/en/products/ball-bearings/angular-contact
:thumb:
Quote from: sledge on November 20, 2013, 04:47:51 PM
Quote from: ohgood on November 20, 2013, 01:17:26 PM
OK, now you're bullshitting to try and sound knowledgeable.
You owe jack an apology for your bullshit today.
1 Forgive me for saying so but you sound like another one who doesn't like to proven wrong.
2 The link which contains the statement that mirrors mine comes from the Schaeffler product catalogue, Schaeffler is the parent company to INA and nancy boy, two of the worlds largest producers of rolling bearings......If you don't believe what the manufacturers themselves say who will you believe :dunno_black:
3 http://www.schaeffler.co.uk/content.schaeffler.co.uk/en/index.jsp
4 As for apologies for BS........I am not the one spouting the BS :dunno_black:
5 EDIT....For nancy boy read F.A.G. :D :D :D
i numbered these, and was going to respond to each one. but now, i have one question instead.
would you like to discuss it, or act flippant, immature, and name call ? i can do either, but the former is more appealing.
... sledge while nit picky has a range of technical range putting him in a league of his own.
Cool.
Buddha.
[/quote]
I'd guess your not an engineer?
Quote from: adidasguy on November 19, 2013, 06:06:43 PM
I have Sledge on my ignore list. I don't see his posts and life is so much better now. Kind of like getting that annoying pebble out of your shoe.
Good idea Addy but I put him on my ignore list earlier today and it isn't working, I'm still seeing his obnoxious posts. If it doesn't work by tomorrow I may put this forum on my personal ignore list. I've noticed him using this same insulting demeaning attitude on other members who have disagreed with him, he started it with me years ago. Obviously he doesn't how to disagree without being disagreeable.
you have to go into settings jack and check the box that says do not show posts from blocked users... or something like that .. addy had to do the same initially
Found it under Look and Layout. Done. Now I won't have to delete the ones to me. Thanks Janx.
:woohoo:
Quote from: gsJack on November 20, 2013, 07:32:23 PM
... sledge while nit picky has a range of technical range putting him in a league of his own.
Cool.
Buddha.
I'd guess your not an engineer?
[/quote]
Card carrying ... software by trade, civil by education, mechanical and electronic (yes I can dream) by hobby ...
What he says while correct, can be largely irrelevant ... like a bearing's axial load in the GS'es assembled wheel ... like whatever ... it would never get loaded that way unless you took the wheel out put the axle in, and hit it with a "sledge" ... he he ...
Cool.
Buddha.
About the bearings, I replaced all four in my 02 as mentioned above and all 4 were driven in solid against the bottom until the bell rang tapping all around. The spacers then were not tight, didn't move laterally but did move radially with the little pinky applied. The bearings turned free and smoothly. Obviously the bearings must have had a bit of preload when the axle bolt was tightened.
I have the wheels from my old 97 that son JP parted out after he was done with it and just took a look at them, had them on my 02 with different tires I was trying and they're back off now. Still with the original bearings and 120k miles on them the bearing inner races feel a bit looser due to wear but they were tight up and the wheel couldn't be moved laterally when they were shaken when last on the bike. I could lift the inner spacer with my little pinky and hear it fall, it was loose but snug as a bug when wheel was last mounted and tightened down.
I don't doubt what bmf and mitch79 reported above about the bearings going tight when the they were driven in and it was necessary to back one off a bit. Seems they are 03 and 06 models and probably assembled in Spain and could be they changed something in the fitment of the bearings, I don't know can only speculate. I prefer the way mine are all fit up tight since with the high mileage I put on them sooner or later they would be floating wheels I think. Maybe that would compensate or assist the floating rotor. :icon_lol: Hope someone doesn't take off on that joke now.
Thanks for the input on yourself Buddha. I went to work in a garage when I was 15 and worked full time summers and part time winters thru high school and college. With my early interest in cars 65 years ago I would probably have taken EE courses instead of ME if I had known what they were going to do to cars between then and now. I took off my Engineers cap and put on my shade tree mechanics cap when I retired 19 years ago.
On the wheel bearing - the sleeve will sorta rock a little ... if not you will never be able to get the drift onto the race to remove it.
Essentially put new bearings in, and if its as it was before it would be OK.
The worst bearing cases are typically on bikes that have been parked for years in weather and rain ... super low miles and sit for years and years.
Cool.
Buddha.
"tapping on the inner race to sit it up against the spacer so it is free to turn correctly. Do it this way and there will be no preload on the bearings to bind them up".
Sorry mate, but (in spite of your APPARENT expertise) you have just unveiled your complete lack of knowledge 'real-world' engineering principles.
Tapping of the inner race will certainly damage the roller balls and/or race to some extent. An absolute no-no.
A couple of light taps on the inner race to get the bearing into a final position wont harm it, particularly if its the float end where the housing diameter will be at the upper and of its tolerance and the outer race comparatively loose in relation to the fixed end and free to travel in the housing.
But.......beating hell out of it will :thumb:
Quote from: sledge on November 23, 2013, 03:45:24 AM
A couple of light taps on the inner race to get the bearing into a final position wont harm it, particularly if its the float end where the housing diameter will be at the upper and of its tolerance and the outer race comparatively loose in relation to the fixed end and free to travel in the housing.
But.......beating hell out of it will :thumb:
Just stop man, you're digging a hole.
Nah........ :dunno_black: