GStwin.com GS500 Message Forum

I have never heard anyone discussing rebuilding a starter. So I am assuming they don't normally go bad but I  :dunno:
My starting problem :x  returned my first day back at work as a courier.
Most times my battery reads 12.76 V. except for after trying to start it(drops to 12.5 and slowly climbs). Which acording to clymer, it is fully charged. :? but I only get a half a crank before it starts clicking. I can get a reading of up to 13.75 V after a night of charging but it still did not crank. So I thought maybe it is the starter. Although, if I leave the 1 amp charger on the terminals it will crank.
Also, I am having trouble with the battery drain test. The one where you connect the meter up to the disconected ground cable and the negative terminal. After a nights charging, I get a reading of .76 V and normally it is close to .22 V. My problem is that Clymer says it should be less than 1.2 mA. None of my settings give me a reading with a mA, only V. Could mA be smaller number than V ? like mm versus cm.

By the way, push starting a bike all week is making me totally buff 8)

Quote from: JohNLANone of my settings give me a reading with a mA, only V. Could mA be smaller number than V ? like mm versus cm.

Volts and amps are like apples and oranges.  Consider the not-quite-perfect-but-still-useful hydraulic analogy of electricity -- by thinking of water running through pipes.  In this model, electrical voltage is like the pounds-per-square-inch water pressure that pushes the water through the system.  The electrical amperage (or current) is like the actual amount of water that moves past a given point in the system per second.

If you think about a hydraulic brake system, you know that you can have very high pressure (think voltage) while still moving very little fluid (current).  This is because of a high resistance, which is the third member of the electrical trio.  BTW, this is how power gets moved across the country on those monster cables: very high voltage and relatively low current.  At the "business end" of the system (your neighborhood and home), transformers are used to trade voltage for current, which brings the power to a safe and useful form.

OK, now look at this picture of my digital multimeter:



In the upper left corner you can see that the (DC) voltage ranges go from 200 millivolts (.2 volts) up to 600 volts.  The voltage measuring part of the meter can handle all of those volts because it has "big" resistors in the circuit to limit the current.  (Excess current is what fries electrical components, or fuses tools to battery posts, or what have you.)

On the right side of the meter the (DC) amperage (or current) ranges go from 200 microamps (.0002 amps) up to 200 millamps (.2 amps) when the red lead is inserted into the VomA jack.  If you switch the red lead to the 10A DC jack you can measure all the way up to 10 amps  :o !  There is a reason for the separate circuit.  To measure that much current with delicate electronic components you've got to have some hefty protection built in.

Stay with me for a sec and I'll try to clear up something you said in the first post on the 2nd page of your Any ideas's ? Carbs, Valves, Emissions ? thread:

Quote from: JohNLADirections say to switch ammeter from its highest to lowest amperage scale while reading the meter scale. I couldn't get any readings other than OL(overload) with all the five settings available. Also, I have no clue what they mean by switching from lowest to highest is done.
(?)

Hopefully you can see why you would want to start out at the highest amperage setting (10A) - especially when directly measuring a battery! - and then clicking down a range at a time until you get a readable value.  "The better to keep from melting you, my dear!"

Before we go much further, maybe you can try again to post a picture of your meter, or at least tell us the brand and model.  (Remember?  :roll: )

EDIT: Changed link from sisna.com to bbburma.net

wow... i would have just said "try cleaning your battery terminals and starter connections first"

:)

If it cranks with the little charger connected, something is wrong with your battery. Maybe you have bad connections at the starter or battery (!), excessive current drain even when the switch is off, but most likely your battery is crap.

Oh, and I just so happen to have a used starter for sale...

Jeez, I'll be glad when all these GS parts are gone!

Also, gassing voltage is usually just above 14v.  With the bike running, you should be able to get somewhere between 14.1v and 14.8v.  You may have to rev it to 5k to see this.

Is the 13.5v measurement with the engine running?  13.5v is enough to maintain a battery charge, but I've read that it may not recharge a depleted battery (I have my doubts about that; I think it would, only more slowly, and not all the way to 100%).  Anyways, you might see how far you get putting the battery on a tender every night.  If your voltage before starting gets lower through the day, or you are able to get through the morning, but not the afternoon, then your battery is gradually becoming depleted while you work.

As mentioned, the battery is also a likely culprit (probably the most-likely).  Be sure it's watered-up.

But if your job has you riding 6 blocks then parking, riding, parking, etc., then no charging system will fix that.  You need some freeway riding after each start to recharge the battery.  If you can park in parking ramps, then you may be able to bump-start some of the time to help nurse it along.

The battery is only 2 weeks old but maybe it didn't get enough of a first full charge :dunno: I guess it could be bad but I am reluctant to buy another until I am sure. See handle for explaination.

Rema, The 13.5V number was after a nights charge and without the bike running. Before I did the valves, I tried the charging test to see how many V it put out at 5k rpm's and it was withen spec. I'll try it again to see if anything has changed since then.

Kerry, your analogy was great. I think I finally understand the difference between volts and amps. I think I must have a cheap meter because it does not have a way to test high load amps. I just get the overload reading.

I'll post a pic of my meter but I think I must have bought a cheap one. If there is one thing I don't like being cheap with, is my tools. :(

Now where did I leave that camera.

Here you go.
(http://johnla2.tripod.com/meter.txt)

That'll be why it won't measure amps or milliamps - it doesn't!

Your meter is also auto-ranging, so you can ignore all the stuff about starting at the highest range and stepping down. The meter does it by itself.

The horseshoe symbol is ohms, measures resistance.

Oh yeah, the GS starter seems pretty sealed. I don't think it will be easy to re-build.

On the plus side, your meter seems to have an audible continuity/diode tester and a battery tester for AAA, AA, C, D cells (1.5V).

You probably picked up on this already, but the "~" symbol always represents measurements done with AC (alternating current) circuits.  Batteries and computer power supplies put out DC (direct current) while the outlets in your house put out AC.

In fact, with the exception of wall outlets I can't think of any everyday sources that put out AC.

Anyone?

Duh.  How about the alternator on a car or a motorcycle?

That's why you need a rectifier - to convert the AC from the alternator into DC that can be used to fire the spark plugs, charge the battery, etc.

Silly me!  :oops:

I can check my Suzuki manual when I get home - much better than Clymer.

The stator wires should be pretty obvious though. They come from the stator on the left side of the engine back over the front sprocket, and out the top of the sprocket cover. The only other wire leaving there is a single jacketed wire from the neutral indicator. If you just follow the fatter jacketd bundle of 3 wires up from the sprocket cover, right near the where the clutch cable goes into the sprocket cover, you should be able to find which connector is the stator connections.

And I have an extra stator too - no more rectifier/regulators though.

As far as which connector is which, perhaps this old thread will help.  It has links to some stuff scanned from my Haynes manual.  One of them includes a drawing of the connector:
Charging system (http://www.gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4770)

As for the 4000 ohm reading.  Yeah, that's a decent amount of resistance.  Nowhere near an open circuit, though.

Thanks Kevein, I did figure it out by following the wires coming from the front sprocket area and it lead to the 3 yellow wires right on top next to the battery. I measured them and the meter acted like it liked measuring them because it made cool little animation and gave me reading between .4 and .6 :thumb:

Thanks Kerry, for the thread link and your Haynes pics. The Haynes metions that is probably an alternator problem if you register below spec doring the 5k rpm charging test. I will try and check that next. :thumb:

I spoke too soon - the starter actually is re-buildable, and the brushes can be replaced. There are instructions in the Suzuki manual.

Make sure you check the ground wire from the battery to the engine, and the connections at both ends. If there is a high resistance there, you will have all sorts of problems.

Sounds like your manual has the same specs as the Suzuki one - below 13.5 or over 15.5V in the 5,000 rpm, lights on test, then check the alternator output. Again, 5000 rpm, and should be 75 V AC or greater between all possible pairs of the three alternator leads.

I am more confused now, then ever :?
Today, when I rev the engine to 5000 rpm's. I got a 14.4 V reading from the terminals compared to yesterdays 13.3.  :dunno:
When I test the three alternator wires at 5000 rpm's they all registered 64 V AC. which is below spec.
Also, I checked the ground wire at both ends at it looks and feels real tight.

Update:
It started working fine last Saturday and Sunday. :) I had an apointment to see a mechanic Monday mornig. Of course he thought I was crazy since it was working fine. Tuesday afternoon it stopped starting  :x  Back to the mechanic this morning to show him I am not crazy. He just called and said I need a new starter. He said the starter is dragging and that is what was draining trhe battery. Yea, mystery solved.  :thumb:

Kevin, you still got that starter for sale?

Yep, $25 plus shipping?

Intermittent things like that are many times bad connections. I replaced most of the harness and connectors on my '82 BMW and cleaned the rest, and the improvement was amazing. Corrosion at contact popint, in the connectors, in the crimps, and in the wire bundles, cause all sorts of strange problems.

Anyone, have any hints on how to remove the starter cable that is under the rubber boot. I loosened it with my rachet but It just keeps spinning and won't come off  :dunno:

From the starter itself? I've never tried. The starter I shipped has that cable on it. Just take that one out with your starter, and undo it at the solenoid end.

Thanks, but it is already off. I had to pull the starter case apart to lock onto the screw on the inside while I removed the nut.
The reason I pulled it apart was because I want to see if it ca be rebuilt. Although, as soon as I pulled it apart lots of broken peices fell out. I will take invetory of whats what in the morning.

By "dragging the starter", I assume that you mean that the starter solenoid was not disengaging the starter from the engine?  Hm, if the engine is turning the starter constantly, then the starter should overheat and die in short order... I'm surprised you could still start your bike.

Also, I had a friend with a Saab who had a starter stay engaged while he drove 5 hours; he claimed that, on it's way to the great chassis in the sky, the starter had behaved like a generator (eletric motor, generator, what's the difference...), and fried his electrics.   But that's second-hand info.

Bah!  These starters are nothing but trouble.  Get an Enfield; just think how buff you'd get as a courier, kick-starting every time you take-off! :thumb:

yeah, but does it have the signiture triangle rear wheel stand of the old delivery bikes?

Rema, I don't think the starter was constantly running. When the mechanic said it was dragging. I guess he was saying that because the starter was not working it was causing a strain on the rest of the electrics.

In any case the starter was a mess. :(
The positive brush assembly is completely missing the magnet(brush) and its chord. The negative brush holder plate assembly has a disconected magnet(brush). also both magnets look well worn but I have not measured them yet, to see if they are still in spec.

Blueknyt, as cool as that triangle stand sounds, I thing I will just use my kickstand. Although, I am looking to invest in one of those more authentic huge courier bags. Unfortanatly, the big ones are not cheap.

Thanks Kevin C., the starter arrived this afternoon and is working perfectly :)  :)  :) My GS starts on the first bump now.

I did end up having to change out that same cable. :roll:
Apparently, the tab on the selinoid end is in a different spot on the post 01 electrics. I also took the oppertunity to check out the internals of the pre 01 starter. They did not change :)  I also, figured out exactly what broke on mine. So I should be able to rebuild it, for a spare :thumb:
:cheers:

Glad it works for you John. No more problems, I'm running out of parts!

That makes 2... or how many... Bikes that are running on KevinC's parts... Mine has its share of them for sure. Yes JohNLA... you are begining to think like me... its broken anyway, why not rebuild it for a spare.
Cool.
Srinath.

Quote from: seshadri_srinathThat makes 2... or how many... Bikes that are running on KevinC's parts... Mine has its share of them for sure. Yes JohNLA... you are begining to think like me... its broken anyway, why not rebuild it for a spare.
Cool.
Srinath.

I have a "few" of his parts.

Kevin...what happens when you sell all of your GS parts? You going over to SVRider to post?  :P

Already in transition to annoying the SV forum people as well!

I have a dissassembled SV in my shop now, and the GS parts are getting pretty thin.

I think I have done the opposite of you since I sold my SV and bought a GS.