Heya guys, this weekend I'm tearing my bike apart and fixing everything that needs doing. Since I'm going to be tearing the bike apart pretty much as I'm going to be doing the valves and such, I decided to go ahead and order a K&N lunchbox while I'm at it and rejet the bike. As of right now, the bike is on stock jetting running a motad system (but will be changing this to a Delkevic system in a months time, which said no rejetting will be needed).
UK GS500K1!
SO.... I'm in need of a carb gurus help here, the stock jetting on this bike is... following the Haynes...
Pilot Jet = 17.5
Pilot Air Jet = 165
Jet Needle = 5DH41
Main Jet = 115
Main Air Jet = 0.5mm
Starter Jet = 42.5
So going from these, which it will be as the bike is running lean like all the other stock bikes out there, what jets would I change and to which size?
----Im changing from the stock airbox to a K&N RU2970 Lunchbox. Motad system currently on, which I've read needs no rejetting.
Im assuming the only ones that will need to be changed will be the pilot jet, main jet and the starter jet, right?
With the carb questions out of the way, as I'm changing to a Lunchbox, I need a breather.... And I've been on a ton of different threads and not come to a conclusion as of yet.
Will this breather be fine, or will I need a different one (needs to be from UK)? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Breather-Filter-10mm-Oil-Crankcase-Air-Small-R-/350860288605?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item51b0e7225d
And do I have to buy any hose to put the breather on? Or is the hose already attached to the engine/carbs (I assume it is, just want to be sure as I'm buying everything online and don't want to be caught out missing something!!)
Thanks alot for your help in advance, this forum has been a godsend as I'm new to all this!
Jayke.
The Suzuki service manual doesn't list the stock mid-main jet, but this is probably a 60 (rather than the 42.5 you have listed from the Haynes manual).
With the stock exhaust and K&N drop-in filter, I jetted to 20/60/142.5 2.5 turns and that was amazing. This is close to what's recommended for pods and a stock exhaust.
I have since added a Vance&Hines can on a set of stock headers and am still working on the ideal jetting. Currently I'm running 22.5/62.5/147.5 and she's still lean on the idle (mixture screws 4 turns out) and probably lean overall as I still haven't had a loss in pull by stepping up the mains. A buddy works at the parts counter at the dealership and he's going to help me exchange new jets for bigger. At the very least I'll need a 25 pilot, but a 27.5 may be a safer bet. That and I may need to bump the mid-main up to a 65.
Quote from: radodrill on February 26, 2014, 06:28:46 PM
The Suzuki service manual doesn't list the stock mid-main jet, but this is probably a 60 (rather than the 42.5 you have listed from the Haynes manual).
With the stock exhaust and K&N drop-in filter, I jetted to 20/60/142.5 2.5 turns and that was amazing. This is close to what's recommended for pods and a stock exhaust.
I have since added a Vance&Hines can on a set of stock headers and am still working on the ideal jetting. Currently I'm running 22.5/62.5/147.5 and she's still lean on the idle (mixture screws 4 turns out) and probably lean overall as I still haven't had a loss in pull by stepping up the mains. A buddy works at the parts counter at the dealership and he's going to help me exchange new jets for bigger. At the very least I'll need a 25 pilot, but a 27.5 may be a safer bet. That and I may need to bump the mid-main up to a 65.
Well I have a motad exhaust atm, going to this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suzuki-GS500E-F-89-02-350mm-Oval-Stainless-Steel-Silencers-Exhaust-Kit-/271214616592?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item3f25a6a010
So do you think itll be worth getting the 25 pilot for myself? Looking to hopefully just do this once as I'm not so comfortable doing it alot :P.
And are those jets for a UK model K1? I assume itll be fine but it seems a huge jump, though you are the knowledgeable one, I'm a total noob! :D
Oh by the way, what do you think about the breather?
Thanks alot!!
Quote from: Jayke on February 26, 2014, 06:37:58 PM
Well I have a motad exhaust atm, going to this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suzuki-GS500E-F-89-02-350mm-Oval-Stainless-Steel-Silencers-Exhaust-Kit-/271214616592?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item3f25a6a010
So do you think itll be worth getting the 25 pilot for myself? Looking to hopefully just do this once as I'm not so comfortable doing it alot :P.
And are those jets for a UK model K1? I assume itll be fine but it seems a huge jump, though you are the knowledgeable one, I'm a total noob! :D
Oh by the way, what do you think about the breather?
Thanks alot!!
It all depends on how restrictive your new exhaust is.
The main difference between the UK vs US bikes is that the UK are jetted even leaner for emissions; though they do have a slightly different needle as well. It looks the EU spec is a 130 or 135 main using the same needle as the UK just with the e-clip at the 3rd position rather than 2nd (I'm guessing higher in the UK).
In my case the stock jets were 17.5/60/130 and for just a drop-in I went up 5 sizes on the main and 1 on the pilot. With the new (much less restrictive) exhaust even the 22.5 pilot is too lean; so at least a 25 is in order.
Depending on your new exhaust (not sure how the Delkevic can compares to stock or V&H), I'd say you'll need at least a 22.5 pilot. With the stock 60 mid-main and new exhaust mine was very sluggish, the 62.5 solved that; so you may need the 62.5 as well.
For the main, it depends a bit on your location as well as the exhaust/intake. I'd say that 142.5 would be a good start, but you may need bigger.
BTW, I can actually pull the carbs to change jets and have it back together in under 45min.
And there's a breather tube attached to the top end of the engine; you can put a filter on it but it's not mandatory as it's an outlet.
Edit: I'm guessing that the needle is lower on the UK speck (115 main); if the needles were at the same position, at WOT you'd feel a huge jump in power passing through 6-7K RPM with the 130 main (or a flat top end on the UK spec). The difference in the needle height smooths out the transition regions (at WOT) from the mid to high range.
Quote from: radodrill on February 26, 2014, 07:07:23 PM
Quote from: Jayke on February 26, 2014, 06:37:58 PM
Well I have a motad exhaust atm, going to this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suzuki-GS500E-F-89-02-350mm-Oval-Stainless-Steel-Silencers-Exhaust-Kit-/271214616592?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item3f25a6a010
So do you think itll be worth getting the 25 pilot for myself? Looking to hopefully just do this once as I'm not so comfortable doing it alot :P.
And are those jets for a UK model K1? I assume itll be fine but it seems a huge jump, though you are the knowledgeable one, I'm a total noob! :D
Oh by the way, what do you think about the breather?
Thanks alot!!
It all depends on how restrictive your new exhaust is.
The main difference between the UK vs US bikes is that the UK are jetted even leaner for emissions; though they do have a slightly different needle as well. It looks the EU spec is a 130 or 135 main using the same needle as the UK just with the e-clip at the 3rd position rather than 2nd (I'm guessing higher in the UK).
In my case the stock jets were 17.5/60/130 and for just a drop-in I went up 5 sizes on the main and 1 on the pilot. With the new (much less restrictive) exhaust even the 22.5 pilot is too lean; so at least a 25 is in order.
Depending on your new exhaust (not sure how the Delkevic can compares to stock or V&H), I'd say you'll need at least a 22.5 pilot. With the stock 60 mid-main and new exhaust mine was very sluggish, the 62.5 solved that; so you may need the 62.5 as well.
For the main, it depends a bit on your location as well as the exhaust/intake. I'd say that 142.5 would be a good start, but you may need bigger.
BTW, I can actually pull the carbs to change jets and have it back together in under 45min.
And there's a breather tube attached to the top end of the engine; you can put a filter on it but it's not mandatory as it's an outlet.
Well the delk wont be for a while at least, so if I follow your suggestions, since its a UK bike, itll be okay right? Since the needle is different.
As you see I'm not educated at all in carbs or bike mech at all really. Doing this work with my dad overseeing as he has a little knowledge in his years.
So confusing! :dunno_black:
As long as itll be okay then I'll go ahead and do it. And as for the needle, if I dont know what to do when it comes to it, I guess I'll pop up an image or something on the forums.
22.5/60/142.5 you reckon then? :)
I was very happy with 20/60/142.5 while running the stock exhaust and K&N drop-in; since you already have a motad you should be fine with a 22.5 pilot. When using the stock 60 mid-main, if it's sluggish to respond to throttle inputs, then step up to a 62.5 And the 142.5 main should run fine; even if it's a bit lean, you'll just be running a bit hotter and not have the max possible pull from the engine.
The needle is the only more confusing part of the matter since it is a slightly different model than the US spec. The US spec only has one e-clip position; I'm guessing the European models have an adjustable e-clip, where in the EU it's set to match the geometry of the US needle.
TLDR alert
I personally did my jetting by seat of the pants feel; got a few main sizes and went from there. Also, while you have the carbs off for the first jet swap, make sure the idle adjust knob is set such that the butterflies are held slightly open with about a 0.5-0.75 mm gap between the butterfly and throttle body.
What I did was first select the best main jet such that I get the hardest Wide Open Throttle (WOT) pull at over 7K RPM; i.e. cruise just over 7K then roll hard on the throttle.
Once the best main was set, I adjusted the needle height such that at WOT I got a smooth transition passing through 6-7K. Cruise around 4-5K then roll on hard. If you get a sudden jump in power/ around 7K then you have to raise the needle a bit; if you have a hole where power drops near 6K then picks back up, then you need to lower the needle. Remember, you're after a smooth transition.
After that it's fine tuning the idle, transition on/off idle, and responsiveness to throttle changes.
The pilot jets and mixture screws are what govern most of the idle performance. The pilot is the coarse adjust and the screws are the fine adjustment; 1.5 turn of the mixture screws is equivalent to changing the jet by 1 size, typically you want to be between 1.5-3 turns out (maybe up to about 3.5 turns).
If the idle circuit is slightly lean (with respect to the main jetting), you can get a loopy idle. With a cold engine, a rich idle will make it hard to start at warm temperatures but easier when it's cold out (once the engine is warmed up it'll often run fine) and you'll see the opposite with a lean idle. I try to adjust the idle so that it'll start right up and idle smoothly if it's been sitting near 61 F (16 C) or so (approx garage temp); when it's been sitting in the cold I may need a bit of choke but not when it's warm out.
The on/off idle behavior is governed by the idle adjust knob and mid-main jet. You can set the idle first as changes to the mid-main would generally only need minor adjustment to the mixture screws (pilots should be able to stay the same).
If your bike is sluggish to react to changes in the throttle, then your mid-main is too small. Under no load (bike in neutral), you should be able to slightly twist the throttle and have it react almost instantaneously; with a sharp twist it should rev up rapidly.
In terms of on/off idle performance, while cruising around 4K RPM you want it to be smooth going from closed to slight throttle and back. Use the idle adjust knob to set the idle around 1500 RPM (maybe slightly higher). If you have a jump in power by going from idle to slight throttle, then need to turn in the idle adjust knob (holds the butterflies further open); if this in turn results in a very high idle (above 2K RPM), then you'll need to decrease the size of the mid-main.
I know this might seem complicated at first, but once you start you'll get a feel for it and it won't be too hard.
Quote from: radodrill on February 26, 2014, 08:32:15 PM
I was very happy with 20/60/142.5 while running the stock exhaust and K&N drop-in; since you already have a motad you should be fine with a 22.5 pilot. When using the stock 60 mid-main, if it's sluggish to respond to throttle inputs, then step up to a 62.5 And the 142.5 main should run fine; even if it's a bit lean, you'll just be running a bit hotter and not have the max possible pull from the engine.
The needle is the only more confusing part of the matter since it is a slightly different model than the US spec. The US spec only has one e-clip position; I'm guessing the European models have an adjustable e-clip, where in the EU it's set to match the geometry of the US needle.
TLDR alert
Oh wow, definately going to bookmark this thread, feel like its going to help me alot in the near future :P
Right... I managed to find the main 142.5 jets, and the 22.5 pilot.... just having a HUGE trouble finding mid mains. I see from looking on the wiki, the jets are as follows:
Pilots = N224.103 or VM28/486 (apparently they are the same)
Mid Main & Main = N102.221
But I just cant find anywhere in the UK (online) that has the 60 mid main in stock!
I guess I'm just going to have to buy what I can online and go to my local bike shop and just pray that they have exactly what I need.
Pilots - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291054962753
Mains - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181007125391
Just those damn mid mains! Grrr....
Smallest I can find is like 100 :(
Quote from: Jayke on February 26, 2014, 08:53:11 PM
Oh wow, definately going to bookmark this thread, feel like its going to help me alot in the near future :P
I found a CV Carburetor tuning guide by FactoryPro (http://www.factorypro.com/tech/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_carbtune,CV,high_rpm_engines.html) online, yet that dealt with 2 jet carbs and didn't talk much about changing pilots. The first few steps were spot on for selecting the main and adjusting the needle; from then on, it was trial and error tweaking to get it running great with the stock pipe. With the new pipe, I first tried it with the jetting that I had with the stock pipe and found the sluggish behavior, which was resolved with 1 size larger mid-main.
So the guide I posted is part what I gleaned from FactoryPro and the rest (i.e. most of it) personal experience from trying various jets.
Quote from: Jayke on February 26, 2014, 08:53:11 PM
Right... I managed to find the main 142.5 jets, and the 22.5 pilot.... just having a HUGE trouble finding mid mains. I see from looking on the wiki, the jets are as follows:
Pilots = N224.103 or VM28/486 (apparently they are the same)
Mid Main & Main = N102.221
But I just cant find anywhere in the UK (online) that has the 60 mid main in stock!
I guess I'm just going to have to buy what I can online and go to my local bike shop and just pray that they have exactly what I need.
Pilots - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291054962753
Mains - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181007125391
Just those damn mid mains! Grrr....
Smallest I can find is like 100 :(
Your bike should have a stock 60 mid-main; so you need to look for a 62.5 My local dealer actually had them in stock (just not all the pilots) and can order any jet; their prices were actually lower than buying online ($4-5 each vs $7+).
Edit: here you go http://www.motocarb.co.uk/main%20jets.htm
Thanks for that aswell, I will be (hopefully) doing all the work on it on Tuesday/Wednesday so it will all come useful and hopefully become a new bike!
Good call on the jets, though. I think I'll leave them for now and pop down my local shop and see what they have to say, can't hurt I guess!
Again, many thanks for the help and your patience, I'm sure I'll be back in a few days to rack your brain again lol!
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not sure if you saw my edit; found a UK store that says they have basically all sizes of Mikuni small round jets from 50 up to 240; looks like they only do phone orders, but their pricing is almost the same as the link you had to ABVracing's eBay store. Note: they also sell the pilots.
http://www.motocarb.co.uk/main%20jets.htm
Quote from: radodrill on February 26, 2014, 09:29:49 PM
not sure if you saw my edit; found a UK store that says they have basically all sizes of Mikuni small round jets from 50 up to 240; looks like they only do phone orders, but their pricing is almost the same as the link you had to ABVracing's eBay store. Note: they also sell the pilots.
http://www.motocarb.co.uk/main%20jets.htm
Didn't see it sorry :P - I'll give them a call tomorrow after I visit my local shop if they don't have any/the price is much better on motocarb. Motocarb will be costing me £22.40 (for all jets) which is about 38 dollars. Bet thats expensive to you, huh? :D
Thank you!
Quote from: Jayke on February 26, 2014, 09:25:03 PM
Thanks for that aswell, I will be (hopefully) doing all the work on it on Tuesday/Wednesday so it will all come useful and hopefully become a new bike!
In my experience the difference is night and day.
When I got the bike with the stock jetting it seemed to be overly flat on the top end with the peak power band between 3-7K RPM; it also did not seem to have a hard pull and did not feel like it launched very well. Further, it was easily capable of doing 95+ mph, but over ~60MPH the acceleration was not that great. i.e. it felt very tame rather than like a sport bike.
After a rejet it became a totally different animal with a lot more torque to it and even required less choke to get it started on cooler days. At any RPM I could roll on the throttle and feel the front end unloading and it also launches really well with a hard pull all the way up to the redline. Higher speed acceleration is also very much improved; it would take maybe 0.5 sec to get from 70mph to 90mph.
My new exhaust has a lot more bark to it with a louder, throatier sound. Even so it's now running on the lean side it still has the hard pull and good acceleration that the stock jetting lacked.
My situation right now seems exactly the same as yours, like almost identical. Obviously it feels fast, but I've come from a 9hp 125cc and I have a big frame for a 125. The bike feels like it lacks alot of power between 2-4k. The main power would be 6.5k to 7.5k then after that it feels empty. Struggles after 80 kinda. I topped at 95, too. Didn't feel anything more in her. Wish I had the spare money to get it dyno 'd so I could see before and after.
Can't wait to see the difference :)
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Quote from: Jayke on February 26, 2014, 09:33:00 PMMotocarb will be costing me £22.40 (for all jets) which is about 38 dollars. Bet thats expensive to you, huh? :D
Thank you!
Comparable to prices online (e.g. jets-r-us), but about 30% more than my local dealer.
Either way it's by far cheaper than a dynojet kit (~$80US for the GS500 kit), which is utter crap. I won't even bother elaborating, you'll get better results and spend less buying jets and tuning it yourself; even if you buy a lot of extra jets for testing various configurations you'll come out ahead.
Quote from: Jayke on February 26, 2014, 09:54:24 PM
My situation right now seems exactly the same as yours, like almost identical. Obviously it feels fast, but I've come from a 9hp 125cc and I have a big frame for a 125. The bike feels like it lacks alot of power between 2-4k. The main power would be 6.5k to 7.5k then after that it feels empty. Struggles after 80 kinda. I topped at 95, too. Didn't feel anything more in her. Wish I had the spare money to get it dyno 'd so I could see before and after.
Can't wait to see the difference :)
Sounds very similar to what mine was stock. I'm sure it would have done maybe 110mph (at the time I didn't feel comfortable taking it faster than 95), yet at that speed the acceleration was uninspiring.
I might have been OK with it had it been my first bike; but coming from a 2007 Ninja 250 I was disappointed. That ninjette loved the mid-high range; not much power under 4K, but hard pull from 4K up to the redline. The biggest downfalls of the 250 are that it tops out ~90-95 (basically at redline; at ~80mph it was at 10.5K RPM), not great acceleration over 55-60 mph, and got buffetted a lot by the wind.
The stock GS didn't feel nearly as spirited; but the rejetted GS is way more fun than the 250 was.
I'd recommend getting a few additional jets so you can try what works best for you. You probably won't get it perfect on the first attempt, but if you take the time to do it right (a few jet changes) then you'll definitely be very happy with the results. The reason why I stress trying different jets is again due to experience; with the stock pipe a 140 main and 145 main have way less pull than the 142.5 (ideal) main. My suggested jet sizes should be fairly close (at lease a great starting point), but you'll want to test for yourself that you have the best jets for your intake and exhaust.
Im from the uk and just ordered my jets off motocarb.co.uk price was 24.50 including delivery
I have delkavic full system and k and n lunch box
Jets ive gone for are 20/65/147.5
Dont believe delkavic my bike was lean an f%$k with that
Straight through system on
Interesting. May be the same case with motad, maybe thats why it's running so lean now. It has the motad system on and it's never been jetted as far as I know.
I will try the suggested jets, which I'm just about to go and buy(hopefully) or order. Then see how it is. Once I've had the bike apart once, I'll be fine with tearing it down. This is my first time when I do it soon so yeah! :p
Just out of curiosity, which delkevic system did you go for? I'm looking at the 350mm one as that's road legal. I tried finding a good video but there was only one!
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Quote from: Jayke on February 27, 2014, 07:22:26 AMOnce I've had the bike apart once, I'll be fine with tearing it down. This is my first time when I do it soon so yeah! :p
Most certainly the case; and with your new lunchbox it will be a lot easier (can stay attached to the carbs). Also, the stock screws on the carbs are a pain to get out; best to replace them with stainless Allen screws; IIRT M4x.7 on the bottom and M5x.8 on top
Yeah I've heard the stock airbox is a massive pain. Glad I'm getting rid of it lol! And oh right thank you, I will get some while I'm out!
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Motad is full stainless, but UK noise restrictions limit the system a bit compared full systems like delkevic... Motad is approved for UK... I couldn't say for sure, but I doubt it would need same jetting as lunchbox with other full aftermarket exhausts like delkevic. It would probably be close to it... and if you plan to get a delkevic, might as well get the jets for that known setup, but jetting needed for lunchbox and delkevic will be likely be richer on your lunchbox with motad.
- Bboy
Quote from: BockinBboy on February 27, 2014, 08:18:20 AM
Motad is full stainless, but UK noise restrictions limit the system a bit compared full systems like delkevic... Motad is approved for UK... I couldn't say for sure, but I doubt it would need same jetting as lunchbox with other full aftermarket exhausts like delkevic. It would probably be close to it... and if you plan to get a delkevic, might as well get the jets for that known setup, but jetting needed for lunchbox and delkevic will be likely be richer on your lunchbox with motad.
- Bboy
Edit: Also forgot to mention about the needles... UK is different particularly for pilot jet due to the needle... this is more unknown territory for me, but if 115 pilot were used on US needle - I'm not sure how well that would even run, if able to start (slight exaggeration, but making a point)... I'm just inferring that 22.5 pilot would probably be too rich for your UK needle...
Well I'm going to be buying the jets in about an hour. I'm not educated at all on the whole carb situation. I'm just going by what you guys say! D:
Now I'm worried again lol!
I'm at right now, a
22.5 pilot
142.5 main
62.5 mid main
Which is what I'll be buying soon. So eh! Any last minute suggestions? On a bit of a budget right now and don't really wanna throw any away on wrong jets if I can help it :P
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As far as I know, The Buddha would be able to tell you best as he has worked on the most GS500 carbs out of the active members on this forum... not sure of anyone in particular that would know more about UK carb/needles specifically.
I am not discounting rado at all, as he likely has more experience than myself in his carbs for sure... only wanted to point out the different needles using different jetting - but details as to how, why, etc... my limited knowledge on them, I won't comment my thoughts toward it lol, I'll just accept I don't really know (YET!) ;)
- Bboy
Edit: Overall, I'm suggesting the difference in your needles and motad might be great enough to use smaller jets than the U.S. versions of your setup using our needles and even less restrictive exhausts than motad. :dunno_black:
I'll drop Buddha a pm or something asking him if he could give his opinion. And well , i think I'll be getting the delkevic exhaust within 2-3 weeks so it'd only run rich (if so) for a week or so. Even so, I think it'll run a ton better regardless, as right now it's super lean.
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Quote from: Jayke on February 27, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
Interesting. May be the same case with motad, maybe thats why it's running so lean now. It has the motad system on and it's never been jetted as far as I know.
I will try the suggested jets, which I'm just about to go and buy(hopefully) or order. Then see how it is. Once I've had the bike apart once, I'll be fine with tearing it down. This is my first time when I do it soon so yeah! :p
Just out of curiosity, which delkevic system did you go for? I'm looking at the 350mm one as that's road legal. I tried finding a good video but there was only one!
With baffle in its quiet noise and personally i feel power restricted.
On the other hand with baffle removed the noise created is more than impressive and gasses are freer flowing. Delkavic with baffle removed IS a race system no restrictions at all.
I have the 350mm oval end can on there headers and keep the baffle out perminantly
That's what I plan on doing I guess, I'm looking for a deeper and louder exhaust than my current motad.
Local shop had the jets but they were like £15 each. So I'll be ringing motorcarb tomorrow. Not sure what to go now. Hmm! Hopefully Buddha will come and shed light on the situation.
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ive been in talks with buddha myself over the last few days over the same thing.
He advised me to go 20/65/147.5 , 1 washer on jet and 3 turns out on air screws
Delkavic with out baffle is loud . Motad sounds like a standard exhausy compared to it
Honestly you will be impressed with the sound.
Im just waiting for my jets to arrive . Ive had to take off my lunch box and put airbox back on until they arrive it was almost unrideable
Oh right cool!! What do you mean by a washer on it? Any certain kind of washer?
Can't wait, honestly lol!
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According to buddha theres a washer above the needles e clip.
That washer needs to be put under the e clip unless the e clip is moveable and then
The clup can be moved 1 position.
He assures me its self explanitory when your looking at it.
Im in the same boat as you are but i already have the delkevic
And im in the uk and ive not took my carbs apart on this bike yet either lol
What year is your gs?? Mines an 05
Oh right sounds alright I guess. It's scary isn't it! My gs is a 2001 model so first one I believe with the new carbs with the mid mains.
Only had the bike under a month, it came with the motad system on it, if it were my choice I would've gone for the delkevic :P
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Ive had mine just about a year and had the exhaust around 9 months.
As for the carbs in doin the exact set up buddha has recommended and if its not right ill play with it and take it from there.
Ive also got ngk irridium plugs k and n high flow oil filter with castrol oil.
Once its set up im taking it for a dyno test . Theres one in a place called cradley heith in the west midlands which is not far from me as im in west bromwich :thumb:
Quote from: Crasm on February 27, 2014, 01:43:35 PM
Ive had mine just about a year and had the exhaust around 9 months.
As for the carbs in doin the exact set up buddha has recommended and if its not right ill play with it and take it from there.
Ive also got ngk irridium plugs k and n high flow oil filter with castrol oil.
Once its set up im taking it for a dyno test . Theres one in a place called cradley heith in the west midlands which is not far from me as im in west bromwich :thumb:
Nice nice, just got in touch with motocarbs, he emailed back within like 5 minutes even at 8:30pm!
Almost the same setup as me then, I just have a stock oil filter in though, may upgrade at a later date, never know!
West Brom is about 35miles from me, just down the road heh! Hope you share the dyno results with us, though! :wink:
Yea motocarbs are really good . Is it steve your speaking to?
Ill defo put the power results up once ive had it done in about 2 or 3 weeks time hopefully
And yea with all the americans , canadians and aussies on here and you find some one kinda local to you on this tiny island called britain lol O0
Quote from: Crasm on February 27, 2014, 02:25:15 PM
Yea motocarbs are really good . Is it steve your speaking to?
Ill defo put the power results up once ive had it done in about 2 or 3 weeks time hopefully
And yea with all the americans , canadians and aussies on here and you find some one kinda local to you on this tiny island called britain lol O0
Was very supirsed! Props to them and yes its Steve I'm talking to :)
Look forward to seeing them!
And yes! Very local, quite strange. :p
Off topic - Dont happen to know of any groups of riders and such near us, do you? I'd love to do group rides soon as I've never actually been on one before. :cheers:
Quote from: BockinBboy on February 27, 2014, 09:09:49 AM
I am not discounting rado at all, as he likely has more experience than myself in his carbs for sure... only wanted to point out the different needles using different jetting - but details as to how, why, etc... my limited knowledge on them, I won't comment my thoughts toward it lol, I'll just accept I don't really know (YET!) ;)
- Bboy
Edit: Overall, I'm suggesting the difference in your needles and motad might be great enough to use smaller jets than the U.S. versions of your setup using our needles and even less restrictive exhausts than motad. :dunno_black:
I had indeed touched on the fact that the UK spec bikes have different needles. Based on the datasheet in the Suzuki service manual, there were 4 variants of the 01/02 GS for the EU market; 2 with a 115 main (one is the UK spec), 1 with a 130 main, and 1 with a 135 main. From the needle part numbers (5DH42 for US with 130 main, 5DH41-2nd for EU/UK with 115 main, and 5DH41-3rd for EU with 130/135 main); it looks like the EU bikes have an adjustable needle with the e-clip at a different position for the 115 main.
I'm presuming the e-clip positions are counted from the bottom as this would make sense to have the needle higher to allow more fuel to be metered by the smaller jets during part throttle operation. The other effect of the smaller main is that the max amount of fuel it can meter (slide all the way up) is less resulting in less power and lower emissions.
Regardless of what needles are actually in the carbs, it should be possible to raise/lower them as needed to tune the carbs for a smooth power curve across the whole RPM range.
You could even check if motocarb carries the 5DH42 needles that were used on all 01/02 GSes sold outside the EU and UK.
Well I'm all out of money now I ordered the jets, so I guess I'll just have to wait!
Have someone interested in my other bike so hopefully it will sell so I can get everything done soon :)
Thanks everyone for the input.
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Thanks for that info rado. Also just realized I flubbed saying 115 pilot but meant mains or something off like that in a previous post- probably made it a little confusing what I meant but hopefully it got translated haha... Just seemed odd to me the stock jetting was so much smaller for UK model carb, cause if you put those UK size stock jets in US carbs, you'd be lean outta this world.
- Bboy
Quote from: BockinBboy on February 27, 2014, 04:02:23 PMJust seemed odd to me the stock jetting was so much smaller for UK model carb, cause if you put those UK size stock jets in US carbs, you'd be lean outta this world.
The carb bodies are the same for all variants of the 01+ GS ;)
Stock jetting on the US model is already lean; the 115 is lean out of the world, but they've set up the needle to mask that and get decent behavior.
Notice how all variants with the 3-jet carbs come stock with a 17.5 pilot, this is so that you don't have trouble starting/idling the bike; the differences in the mains you'll really only notice out on the road or on a dyno.
Once you know (have experienced) what the bike can do when jetted correctly, you really wonder about the super lean factory settings and emissions laws. Granted at idle it's using a bit more fuel, but under load you may be using equal or less fuel as you need less throttle to get the same power output. Though most of us will be enjoying the additional power on tap and putting it to use :D
Edit: Jayke, when you open up your carbs, could you also take out the needles and post a pic of them with and without the plastic/metal washers (leave the e-clip on)? This would be interesting to see the difference between the EU/UK and rest of the world needles. That pic and one of the US needles would be good in the wiki as well and I may create a new thread with the carb jet tuning info (hopefully to be stickied) in case people don't see this thread.
Yes I will do that for you. Step by step with my dslr just for you :)
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Quote from: Jayke on February 27, 2014, 04:40:48 PM
Yes I will do that for you. Step by step with my dslr just for you :)
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Thank you very much.
I guess from my TLDR you can tell why the wiki says "Unfortunately Re-Jetting is a black art (so many variables including humidity, altitude, engine condition etc etc) so often much tweaking of jet sizes is needed to find the perfect combination;" at least with a sense of what each adjustment does you can get it right ;)
Quote from: radodrill on February 27, 2014, 04:48:57 PM
Quote from: Jayke on February 27, 2014, 04:40:48 PM
Yes I will do that for you. Step by step with my dslr just for you :)
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Thank you very much.
I guess from my TLDR you can tell why the wiki says "Unfortunately Re-Jetting is a black art (so many variables including humidity, altitude, engine condition etc etc) so often much tweaking of jet sizes is needed to find the perfect combination;" at least with a sense of what each adjustment does you can get it right ;)
Yeah I see that :P - I will just start from these suggestions and go from there I suppose, guess my spark plugs are going to become my friends and I'll become a pro mechanic lol!
Delkevic exhausts are UK legal if you choose the right end can. The ones that are shorter than 350mm are generally too loud mine is 350mm and is fine.
Quote from: Dirtbox on February 28, 2014, 10:38:36 AM
Delkevic exhausts are UK legal if you choose the right end can. The ones that are shorter than 350mm are generally too loud mine is 350mm and is fine.
Ditto!!
Im very pleased with the sound of mine even after 9 months of it
If either or both of you happen to have a good camera/dslr, if you wouldn't mind could you do a sound test kind of thing? There's one video on YouTube right now and it's kinda bad quality!
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just read your first post and checked my haynes manual which makes an interestimg read
Especially when the carb parts diagram dont even show or mention the mid main jet just the pilot and main jet.
Also from what the haynes says , the uk had adjustable needles so we dont need to space them out with washers
And according to the haynes only the american models had the air screws capped off , summet to do with the carbs had to be sealed for emissions purposes in the usa
1989-2000 carbs had 2 jets
2001+ carbs have 3 jets
Quote from: Crasm on February 28, 2014, 12:43:59 PM
And according to the haynes only the american models had the air screws capped off , summet to do with the carbs had to be sealed for emissions purposes in the usa
:police: On the GS it's actually a fuel screw as it meters the fuel leaving the pilot circuit, some bikes have an air screw that meters air into the pilot circuit; generally speaking they're both idle mixture screws.
The EPA mandates that all carbureted bikes sold in the US have a brass plug over the mixture screws so that the owners
can't mess with it and increase emissions.
And as adidasguy mentioned; the early GS carbs only had 2 jets and that's what's shown in the schematic in the Suzuki service manual, yet they didn't have an update on the carbs for the 01/02 model where the 3-jet carbs were introduced.
Interesting, for the carb work I'll be following the guides online or a YouTube video or something. Breather came today, only ordered it last night aswell! Hopefully everything will come for about Tuesday as thats when I am planning on doing it.
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Radodrill - the thing thats pissed me off about it is , i paid 20 quid for my haines manual that states for the 2001 - 2009 models but yet still doesnt mention the new carbs or anythin about the 3 jets.
Yet the older gs haynes maual was half the price. I feel like ive been conned !!
I bought one too, never actually noticed though, myself! Quite interesting that they say they cover the newer bikes, but in theory don't. Although from what I see pretty much everything is identical other than the carb, engine wise anyway.
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Biggest changes I can see in the Suzuki service manual:
96 - new front brake caliper
01 - 3-jet carbs
03 - new front brake master cylinder
03 - Electronic tachometer (no longer mechanical)
03 - new timing pickup and ECU
03 - TPS on carbs
04 - "F" model introduced with full cowling
04 - oil cooler added (only F model)
04 - PAIR system added
06 - Starter button changed; now disables the lights when pressed
Of course the made other minor changes such as connectors, colors etc over the years, but mechanically it's mostly unchanged.
I actually never bought the Haynes manual; but I'm guessing they say it's for the 01-09 because it includes the cowlings etc.
Quote from: radodrill on February 28, 2014, 04:02:49 PM
Biggest changes I can see in the Suzuki service manual:
96 - new front brake caliper
01 - 3-jet carbs
03 - new front brake master cylinder
03 - Electronic tachometer (no longer mechanical)
03 - new timing pickup and ECU
03 - TPS on carbs
04 - "F" model introduced with full cowling
04 - oil cooler added (only F model)
04 - PAIR system added
06 - Starter button changed; now disables the lights when pressed
Of course the made other minor changes such as connectors, colors etc over the years, but mechanically it's mostly unchanged.
I actually never bought the Haynes manual; but I'm guessing they say it's for the 01-09 because it includes the cowlings etc.
Thats pretty cool, kinda wish I had the electric tacho though in a way, as my tacho actually kinda hovers. Say I'm at 6k rpm, itll hover between 5.5k and 6.5k sometimes... Just seems in a 'dumb' way that it isn't tight enough. Maybe theres a fix, not sure! :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Half way done it seems but can't get any further as the screws for the bottom of the carb are stuck!!!!!
Not sure how to get em out!
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That's common for a set of carbs that haven't been opened before. Be sure you're using a JIS screwdriver (not Phillips). If you have an impact screwdriver, you can try to use that to break the screws loose. If all else, grip them with a pair of vice-grips (or pliers) and turn them out.
This is exactly why most people replace them with Allen screws; 1) because they're easier to remove and 2) the original screws often get messed up while removing them.
Yeah they're screwed almost. Managed to get 3 on one and one on the other side. Grrr!
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Another thing to try is an EZ-out; essentially it's a left-hand drill at one end and a left-hand threaded cone at the other end. Essentially you drill out the stripped head first then the cone bites in and threads the screw out.
Looks like a great idea, just don't have one :P. Having alot of trouble. Looking like I can't get them out. Argh!:(
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IIRC vice grips did the trick for me ;)
I have a set of them but they are big, tried to lock them on but they just slip off everytime.
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What a mess. I feel like a right idiot :(
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[attachment deleted by admin]
What do you think about this? The gold circle things not sure what they're called, the left one is open a tad, all the time?
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[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: Jayke on March 01, 2014, 12:23:16 PM
What do you think about this? The gold circle things not sure what they're called, the left one is open a tad, all the time?
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Those are the butterfly valves. And you want them to stay slightly open (see my TLDR); the one on the left (looking at the picture) is about right, make sure they're both even.
Have u managed to get the bowls and top off??
Have your new jets arrived ?? Did u used motocarb.co.uk in the end??
Quote from: Crasm on March 01, 2014, 01:34:43 PM
Have u managed to get the bowls and top off??
Have your new jets arrived ?? Did u used motocarb.co.uk in the end??
He posted a pic with the right bowl off and the left resting on it being held by an Allen cap screw and others out. From that I'd say he got all the screws for the bowls out (which is IMO the hardest part of changing the jets).
And since he started, I presume he has his jets ;)
Another way to get those pesky screws out is to cut a slot into them with a dremel or similar and use a flathead to turn em out. I was equipped with proper JIS screwdrivers and an impact driver and still ended up using the dremel slot method.
- Bboy
Quote from: BockinBboy on March 01, 2014, 01:46:47 PM
Another way to get those pesky screws out is to cut a slot into them with a dremel or similar and use a flathead to turn em out. I was equipped with proper JIS screwdrivers and an impact driver and still ended up using the dremel slot method.
- Bboy
Only as a last resort, sparks and steel grit are the last things you want around a carb.
EDIT: I had a stubborn screw on a set of carbs off of a Yamaha FZ1, it took two people to remove 1 screw, me on the vice grips grabbing the screw and the owner of the Yami using channel locks to keep my vice grips from popping off the screw. So vice grips have worked 100% for me!
Managed to get the float screws off. Ended up sawing a slit in the remaining 4 I couldn't get of and using a flathead. Was very very hard. Still not sure how to adjust the butterfly valves though, I did read your tldr rado just can't see it.
:( going back in a min to put it back together I think. Getting late. If anyone knows how to on an 01 carb it'd be appreciated. Pics help alot too!
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Quote from: Jayke on March 01, 2014, 02:37:18 PM
Still not sure how to adjust the butterfly valves though, I did read your tldr rado just can't see it.
'07 carbs in photo, the screw should be in the same place...look down from the top, it's accessible with a Phillips screwdriver from the top.
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/biasscrew.jpg)
Lifesaver! Sorry I'm a bit slow. Pictures help alot :) thanks alot!! Back to putting her together. Much appreciated!
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How you get your jets so quick??
I ordered mine on wednesday night and still not arrived yet
Presuming you used motocarb??
Im doin my jets next saturday , so looks like i best get some new bowl screws before i start and i best borrow my impact driver and dremel from work this sounds like its goin to be fun!!
What jet size did you settle on in the end??
Quote from: Crasm on March 01, 2014, 03:59:45 PM
How you get your jets so quick??
I ordered mine on wednesday night and still not arrived yet
Presuming you used motocarb??
Im doin my jets next saturday , so looks like i best get some new bowl screws before i start and i best borrow my impact driver and dremel from work this sounds like its goin to be fun!!
What jet size did you settle on in the end??
Well I contacted motocarb thursday night around 8pm, we sorted our deal, he posted them on friday and received them at about 10pm saturday. If anyone else here ever needs jets in the UK, Motocarb has a BIG vouch from me, not to mention he replied in about 5 minutes at 8pm lol!
Doing the re-jet itself is fairly easy, the only trouble I had was the damn float bowl screws to actually get to them. I ended up using a little hack saw and sawing myself a nice slit on the troublesome screws, then using a big flat head screwdriver with alot of leverage and they came out with a little bit of persuasion! (Crasm - Get yourself some allen head screws to replace them, you'll thank yourself! (rado says somewhere near middle of thread which ones, I believe M4 x .7 for the bottom and M5 x .8 for the tops)
Things I've noticed after the rejet + fitting K&N Lunchbox.....1. The Lunchbox is LOUD - but pleasing to the ear (right now at least)
2. The bike I think now, is a little rich. BUT - I followed jetting for the Lunchbox and a more free-flowing Delkevic Exhaust, which I will be getting this coming week as I have sold my other bike!
3. Re-jetting is easy (I'm a noob), the hardest bit was finding which lines went where to the petcock as my sharpie got rubbed off from the lines which I carefull marked up!
I ended up going 20/62.5/147.5 as they didn't have a 65 mid main in stock. Will see how it goes!SORRY about the TL; DR!! Love you guys for all the help, much appreciated :D :D :D
3.
The idle adjust knob controls how far the right butterfly (left in stevo's pic) is held open; the adjustment screw (near where the throttle cable(s) attach sets the left butterfly with respect to the right.
And yes the hardest things about rejetting is getting the screws out. Otherwise the process is very easy. Only other difficult part is understanding what the different jets do and what to change to get the best performance.
I also noticed the stock pipe get a little bit louder with the rejet; but the new pipe really gave it some bark and a lot less restriction requiring bigger jets.
Idle adjustment is a "throttle stop" and affects both sides. It simply limits how far the throttle can close. It would bethe same as making the throttle cable too tight (no free play) or always holding the throttle open a little.
Makes sense I guess, I ended up balancing it by eye, how close it is, I wont know until I get a manometer and test it.
Oh, I also noticed how damn fast the revs dropped when I revved it (made me happy as a mofo :D), maybe the old air box did have an air leak, not sure!
Going down to delkevics shop on monday hopefully to pick up a more free flowing exhaust.
This one I think!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GS500E-89-08-Full-Stainless-Exhaust-System-Down-pipes-350mm-Oval-Silencer-/290931666854?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item43bce0efa6
Look up "hill billy carb sync".
Works when you don't have a mammary-o-meter
Wow! That's a really cool idea, I will have to try that :D thank you very much!
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Just as an after thought. When I get the delkevic system installed, I'm thinking of getting it dyno'd. Do you reckon they would tell if it was rich or lean?
I've heard that the dyno equipment is quite good and can tell if there's problems with the engine, anyone know?
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Quote from: Jayke on March 01, 2014, 09:53:26 PM
Just as an after thought. When I get the delkevic system installed, I'm thinking of getting it dyno'd. Do you reckon they would tell if it was rich or lean?
I've heard that the dyno equipment is quite good and can tell if there's problems with the engine, anyone know?
It depends if their dyno includes an emissions sniffer or not.
Actually lean or rich issues can to an extent be identified based on the way the bike behaves. Depending on the cost of doing a dyno run, I might be inclined to get a small assortment of jets instead so you can test and see what your butt-o-meter says is best. Sure a dyno can tell you how she runs on paper, but the key thing is real world performance.
With the stock pipe on mine, I found that a 142.5 main had way more pull than a 140 or 145; that peak indicated it was the best and the 145 not pulling as hard showed that was rich. I actually pulled the plugs when I was changing the exhaust and the tip of the plug was light tan indicating ideal mix (maybe slightly lean). An overly lean mix will result in white tips and black tips indicate either a rich mix or fouling from oil etc.
Jayke - i ordered the 65 mid main . . . Only just checked my emails he emailed me on friday saying he was out of 65s and there will be a few days delay . . doh!!!
Must check emails more often .
And cheers for the heads up ill b getting all those screws before i start
Glad everythin went well for you. Just the exhaust now matey!!
Yeah I guess rado, gonna leave it for now though as these are jets for a more free flowing zaust which I don't heve yet. When I do, the experiments begin :) about to go check the plugs now, no doubt rich though!
Hopefully between me and crasm we can come up with a good setting for this setup.
That's unfortunate crasm, if you have a smartphone you should get it linked to your emails :) - never miss an important email again hehe. As for the exhaust, I've messaged delkevic to see if I can collect a system, I only live about 10 minutes from where they're based so hopefully!
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Quote from: radodrill on February 27, 2014, 08:03:45 AM
Quote from: Jayke on February 27, 2014, 07:22:26 AMOnce I've had the bike apart once, I'll be fine with tearing it down. This is my first time when I do it soon so yeah! :p
Most certainly the case; and with your new lunchbox it will be a lot easier (can stay attached to the carbs). Also, the stock screws on the carbs are a pain to get out; best to replace them with stainless Allen screws; IIRT M4x.7 on the bottom and M5x.8 on top
Im guessing by the bolt sizes given m4x0.7 and m5xo.8
Thats in cm ?? Such as the 0.7 is 7mm in lenth for instancr
Probably inches. American measurement so yeah lol. Not sure, it doesn't matter too much, it's a straight through thread so it can be a tiny bit off as long as it doesn't hit the carb body or mess with anything.
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Quote from: Crasm on March 02, 2014, 12:25:13 PM
Quote from: radodrill on February 27, 2014, 08:03:45 AM
Quote from: Jayke on February 27, 2014, 07:22:26 AMOnce I've had the bike apart once, I'll be fine with tearing it down. This is my first time when I do it soon so yeah! :p
Most certainly the case; and with your new lunchbox it will be a lot easier (can stay attached to the carbs). Also, the stock screws on the carbs are a pain to get out; best to replace them with stainless Allen screws; IIRT M4x.7 on the bottom and M5x.8 on top
Im guessing by the bolt sizes given m4x0.7 and m5xo.8
Thats in cm ?? Such as the 0.7 is 7mm in lenth for instancr
That's merely the thread size; M4x.7 means Metric screw with a 4mm nominal diameter and 0.7mm thread pitch. Since the threaded holes on the carb body go straight through, any screw ~8-12 mm long will work.
Quote from: Jayke on March 02, 2014, 12:27:33 PM
Probably inches. American measurement so yeah lol. Not sure, it doesn't matter too much, it's a straight through thread so it can be a tiny bit off as long as it doesn't hit the carb body or mess with anything.
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All Japanese (and most sport bikes in general) use metric fasteners ;)
Ahh right i thought is was thread length not thread pitch
Cheers for clearing that up.
Is there any reason why the pitch and size is different from the carb bowls to the top covers??
Quote from: Crasm on March 02, 2014, 02:28:23 PM
Ahh right i thought is was thread length not thread pitch
Cheers for clearing that up.
Is there any reason why the pitch and size is different from the carb bowls to the top covers??
Not sure why Mikuni made them that way; my guess would be that since the top has only 2 screws per cap they went with bigger screws to account for the additional stress on the threads.
Rado - thats something else i didnt know.
So 4 bowl screws on each carb and 2 tops screws per carb??
Thanks again
Quote from: Crasm on March 02, 2014, 03:58:47 PM
So 4 bowl screws on each carb and 2 tops screws per carb??
That's correct; Qty 4 - M4x.7 12mm for the float bowls, Qty 2 - M5x.8 12mm for the caps, and on the 03+/04+ Qty 2 - M4x.7 8mm for attaching the throttle position sensor (TPS) to the bottom of the right float bowl.
Glad you got it sorted, rado is the man! Just went down to delkevic and bought a 350mm oval system. £250 cash in hand. Hope it's worth it!!!!
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Quote from: radodrill on March 02, 2014, 04:27:26 PM
Quote from: Crasm on March 02, 2014, 03:58:47 PM
So 4 bowl screws on each carb and 2 tops screws per carb??
That's correct; Qty 4 - M4x.7 12mm for the float bowls, Qty 2 - M5x.8 12mm for the caps, and on the 03+/04+ Qty 2 - M4x.7 8mm for attaching the throttle position sensor (TPS) to the bottom of the right float bowl.
Cheers buddy
Bought 10 of each off a supplier my work uses cost me £1
Sounds about right! I got 50 each for 5-6 quid. Wish I could bought less.
Alas, the gs with a delkevic on it. No baffle. Sounds f%$king awesome. Runs alot better with this than the motad on with these jets. May need some fine tweaking, not sure. No popping, power feels greater than with the motad. Happy days!
Ps ; just thought I'd mention, the mid range, about 5-7 feels a tad flat, possibly because I settled for a 62.5 mid main rather than a 65, what are you guys thoughts ?
(picture is minutes old)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/a7uvu9ur.jpg)
Bloody hell mate you dont hang around lol
Same system as mine . . . Looking good !!
You fit it yourself or get a shop to do it??
Did you come across any problems like the ones i mentioned in my last pm to you??
And im glad your happy with it , i said you would be impressed with the noise!!
Well I live 10 minutes away from the delkevic place so I managed to get it easily :) - I ended up fitting it myself, wasn't too bad, as I have had my motad off before a few weeks back. Went together quite well, baffle is out just put a nut on the end of the screw that holds the baffle in as it has a whistle without.
It seems very loud though over 7k lol, definitely more power than before. Made the wheel want to come up when I hit the throttle in 2nd, just a few more jobs to do and we will be good!
And yes, definitely recommend delkevic, great sound!
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I like that weird wistle from the baffle bolt hole lol :D
Aint delkevic in stoke?? I always thought it was based at that massive bike shop in stoke cant remember the name of it now?.
My headers havs blued quite badly but my link and can are still mint im guessing its from the heat air cooled motor
So keep an eye on that.
Ive also got to change my header bolts again to stainless as i replaced the bolts with new mild steel ones when i fitted my new exhaust.
Cant wait for the weekend now so i can get this jetted up and the lunch box back on!!
Steve from motocarb emailed this morning to say the jets are in the post so its looking good for saturday!!
I haven't rode it without the bolt in yet, just heard it when I first started it and did it lol. Yes, it's in Stoke, which is where Im from. It's above dk motorcycles in Newcastle.
Mine have gone a little yellowish as of yet, will see, I don't mind blue pipes really :P - is it bad if they blue? I know you can blue metals with blowtorch.
I need new bolts too, if you find the type let me know ;)
Great to hear about motorcarb, think I'll wait to see what you feel about the 65s. See how the mid range feels and if it's good I'll try them too :) - bet you're excited huh :)
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Thats the one dk motorcycles!! Aint been there for ages i might take my bike there and see what they say about my headers i personally think its a little to much blueing on mine but well c .
Www.projex-uk.co.uk check that if your interested in dyno runs or dyno set up
Quote from: Jayke on March 03, 2014, 12:27:04 PMPs ; just thought I'd mention, the mid range, about 5-7 feels a tad flat, possibly because I settled for a 62.5 mid main rather than a 65, what are you guys thoughts ?
Is there a jump in power as you hit 7K RPM?
You may very well be able to adjust by simply raising the needles a little bit ;)
Dk are great, never had a problem with em, have a nice selection of bikes and gear too!
Will give that site a check, cause I am indeed interested, when everything is done I will be getting her dyno'd :)
Rado - from 1-5k maybe the power is great, then the power from around 5-7k feels very flat compared to it, asif there's something missing. Messing with the needles is the only thing I didn't do when I rejetted, had alot of trouble with getting one of the carb tops off, even after sawing a place to use a flat head. Wouldn't come out! I assume that's where the needles are, anyway. I can't be sure!:) - video is being uploaded now of the sound difference. Will post it up :)
As for the power jumping at 7k, I don't think so. Didn't notice anything really. :/
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Hole or flat spot passing through 5-7K shows that you need to slightly lower the needles or possibly upsize the main; this is because the top end is leaner than the bottom end. This is why the whole discussion of the EU/UK having different needles due to the much smaller main. By lowering the needle you'll reduce the fuel flow when the slide is partly raised (low end) but not affect the top end. That's the reason why I asked for clarification on the symptoms to see how it would have to be adjusted.
But yes the needles are in the slides under the top caps. You'll want to remove the cap (careful there's a spring under there) then pull out the diaphragm with the slides; in the well of the slide there is a white plug holding the needle in place (there's another spring between the plug and the needle)
Quote from: radodrill on March 03, 2014, 05:03:35 PM
Hole or flat spot passing through 5-7K shows that you need to slightly lower the needles or possibly upsize the main; this is because the top end is leaner than the bottom end. This is why the whole discussion of the EU/UK having different needles due to the much smaller main. By lowering the needle you'll reduce the fuel flow when the slide is partly raised (low end) but not affect the top end. That's the reason why I asked for clarification on the symptoms to see how it would have to be adjusted.
But yes the needles are in the slides under the top caps. You'll want to remove the cap (careful there's a spring under there) then pull out the diaphragm with the slides; in the well of the slide there is a white plug holding the needle in place (there's another spring between the plug and the needle)
Well the only thing I didn't mess with as I said was the needle, so that could explain it. I could get 3 screws off on the top, one would just not have any.
Guess I will have to take another look. Gonna check the plugs tomorrow to see how its running, cleaned them off before I went for a long ride earlier.
Need a better test, went out at 6pm ish, so was rush hour and no places to try it out.
Here is the comparison :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_m_YA80HyU&feature=youtu.be
As I said, to get it perfect you need to do some tweaking and address bot the top and bottom of the carbs.
BTW, we also want to hear hard revving rather than just blipping the throttle a bit.
How does it respond to slow/slight changes to the throttle? If you slowly increase the throttle it should follow smoothly without hesitation; twist fast and hold, it should quickly ramp up as soon as you start twisting.
I will definitely be playing around with different jets and such when I get paid.
I can make more videos tomorrow in the day, the throttle is fine for small and big changes so far from what I see. The response is almost instantaneous it feels. Everything seems good other than the flat spot which I was talking about. Need to find a way to get that damn screw out. May invest in an ez -out. Seems a great Idea, then I'll be able to change the needle and get some pics for the wiki!
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Quote from: Jayke on March 03, 2014, 09:45:40 PM
I will definitely be playing around with different jets and such when I get paid.
On the mains; if you go bigger and you have same or better WOT pull, then you're not to rich; if you lose some pull you've gone too rich. The sweet spot is right where you get the peak amount of WOT pull.
And you if you're lean now, you'll probably also get more bark when you have the ideal tuning.
As I said before, with the stock pipe I went up to 20/60/142.5; with the new exhaust, she ran fine (no hesitation) with simply changing the mid-main to a 62.5, but she was running lean and at 22.5/62.5/147.5 she's still lean. I'm about to step up to a 25 pilot and look at a 150 or 152.5 main. Note: I'm still in the process of tuning for the new exhaust. I wouldn't be surprised if the Delkevik would run more like a performance exhaust than the stock (particularly without the silencer).
I guess I'll take a few in different sizes and just do it like you say, after seeing the difference it's made so far, I can't wait to perfect it. Gonna order a load of jets to play around with, should be a busy month! :p
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Ill let u no how i get on with mine on Saturday
Im gunna do the buddhas recommended set up . My jets arrived today so im ready to go for the weekend
Hopefully itll be perfect if not it tweek it and report back
Great to hear! Can't wait to hear what you think, just been riding on some faster roads. My acceleration after 65 ish is really bad. Managed to get up to about 80 and it didn't feel like it wanted to go much more.
Will wait till Saturday to see what yours is like then will go from there :D
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Thats really bad!! You still having trouble with mid range??
I think your mid jet it 2 small and not moving your needles is probs another reason .
Whats your spark plugs saying??
Keep in mind that the throttle position and RPM are way more important than land speed when tuning the carbs.
Quote from: Crasm on March 04, 2014, 11:00:51 AM
I think your mid jet it 2 small and not moving your needles is probs another reason .
The main dominates at ~3/4+ throttle; the 2/4-3/4 range is governed by how far the needle is in the main, and <1/4 throttle is governed by the idle and starter circuits.
If you're lacking power (particularly at the top end with WOT) then you need to adjust the main. You'll actually see a peak in pull (torque) with the optimal main and it drops of if you are too rich or too lean.
If at WOT you notice a flat spot or jump in power when passing through 5-7K, then you need to adjust the needles to (lower/raise) to lean/richen the mid-range mixture (with respect to the top end). A flat spot indicates that the mid range is too rich and jump means that the mid-range is lean.
The mid-mains control the starter circuit and is best tuned on/off idle with very small changes in throttle input. If you go from closed to slight throttle and feel a sudden pull, then your mid-main is too big. If the bike hesitates or is slow to respond to throttle inputs, then your mid-main is too small.
The pilots and mixture screws are the coarse/fine adjustment of the idle behavior. If the cold engine is very hard to start with low temperatures (even at full choke), then you're running lean on the idle; easy at low temp but hard at high temp is a rich idle.
The idle adjust knob simply sets the stop on the butterfly valves and thus the idle speed.
Radodrill - very interesting read thanks for that. I deffinatly have a better understanding of what controls what in the carbs .
Im guessing ''WOT'' means working operating temperature??
So if i rip the throttle full open and it jumps in power delivery its lean and if it flats out its rich on the main jet??
Like wise with the mid main - so lowering the e clip raises the needle and makes the mixture richer??(in the mid range)
And highering the e clip lowes the needle and makes the mixture leaner?? (in the mid range)
Cheers for being patient and all the info you have provided its very much appreciated
WOT = Wide Open Throttle .... ;)
.. however in a general observation .. as to the title of this thread ... there ARE NO QUICK QUESTIONS regarding jetting .. ever!! :D ;) :thumb:
Quote from: Crasm on March 04, 2014, 04:34:34 PM
Radodrill - very interesting read thanks for that. I deffinatly have a better understanding of what controls what in the carbs .
Im guessing ''WOT'' means working operating temperature??
So if i rip the throttle full open and it jumps in power delivery its lean and if it flats out its rich on the main jet??
Like wise with the mid main - so lowering the e clip raises the needle and makes the mixture richer??(in the mid range)
And highering the e clip lowes the needle and makes the mixture leaner?? (in the mid range)
Cheers for being patient and all the info you have provided its very much appreciated
WOT = Wide Open Throttle
TLDR AlertThe GS uses CV (Continuous Velocity) carburetors The following is tailored to our 3-jet carbs.
Essentially the throttle moves a set of butterfly valves that control the volumetric air flow rate into the engine. The carb has a vacuum operated variable venturi, where a slide raises/lowers to maintain a constant air velocity through the venturi. At the throat of the venturi is an emulsion tube to atomize the fuel flowing through the main jet. The needles are attached to the slides and drop into the outlet port of the emulsion tube; so the amount of fuel metered depends on the size of the main, how much of the port is blocked, and how much of a vacuum is generated at the throat.
The mid-main aka starter jet feeds fuel to transition ports near the butterflies. The fuel metered by these ports is not dependent on the slide or needle position, but is very sensitive to changes in the vacuum pressure (directly related to throttle position). Thus the mid-main controls the responsiveness to changes in throttle inputs and compensates for the lag between throttle and slide movements.
The pilot jet feeds both the idle and choke circuits. I won't really talk about the way the choke works as that doesn't affect the way the bike runs when fully warmed up (and the choke off). Air is drawn into passages through the carbs and pass through the pilot jet's emulsion tube (integrated in the jet). The resulting fuel mix goes to the mixture screws, which meter how much fuel is feed into the engine intake through ports in front of the butterflies. The pilot and mixture screws control the low airflow behavior (closed throttle and starting the engine); generally speaking, 1.5 turns of the mixture screws is equivalent to 1 size difference on the pilot jet.
In the case of the 2-jet carbs, the pilot also feeds the transition ports; making them a bit more difficult to tune.
With that out of the way, you want to try to tune each aspect in turn. It's best to start off with the main jet and tune everything else around that; so initially if the bike runs ignore poor idle or hesitation as that will be addressed later.
At >7K and WOT the slides will be fully raised and the main jet metering most of the fuel; so you want to adjust the mains to give you the hardest pull in that range. Both lean and rich will result in less than ideal pull. A lean state means hotter burn thus more wear on the engine; rich results in unburned fuel coming out with the exhaust, which can lead to soot at the tailpipe and or smoke coming out of the exhaust (smelly and blue smoke when overly rich).
With the main jet optimized, you can adjust the needle to tune the mid-range with respect to the top end; what you are looking for is smooth power delivery when transitioning from the mid range to the top end (part raised to fully raised slides). Start at ~4K and give WOT; if you feel a jump in power passing through 6-7K you know the mid-range is lean and you have to raise the needles. On the other hand, if you feel a flat spot or hole when passing through 6-7K, then the mid range is rich and you have to lower the needle.
Now adjust the pilot and mixture. You want to turn down the idle adjust knob and increase the mixture till the RPMs climb and you reach a peak; then you can use the idle adjust knob to reach your desired idle speed. Bear in mind that you want the mixture screws to be between 1.5 and 3 turns out (from lightly seated); if you have to go much beyond that range, then you have to swap the pilot jet.
Overly rich or lean idle states can be identified identified when trying to start a cold engine. If the bike has been sitting in a low temperature environment (say <45F) and it is hard to start even at full choke you're running lean. If it starts fine (often even without choke) at cold temperatures, but has trouble when it's warm out; then you're idle is too rich.
I generally try to set it up that I don't need choke when it's been sitting at ~ 55-60 F or above; then under 50F use some choke as necessary and she should start trouble-free (with full choke) even below freezing.
Finally adjust your mid-main to set your throttle responsiveness; this you'll do based on making small changes in the throttle position. Start with the bike in neutral (e.g. on the stand) and roll on the throttle both slow and fast; if it doesn't respond well to slow throttle changes or lags a lot with fast throttle change, then you have to up-size your mid-main. Then test riding performance; cruise at 4K RPM and slight throttle, if it jerks going to/from closed throttle (drop/jump in power) your mid-main is too big. Since you don't have any fine adjustment, you'll want to select the jet that doesn't lag yet minimizes the transitioning to/from closed throttle.
Note: After adjusting the mid-main, you might have to slightly adjust the mixture screws.
Quote from: Janx101 on March 04, 2014, 05:11:22 PM
.. however in a general observation .. as to the title of this thread ... there ARE NO QUICK QUESTIONS regarding jetting .. ever!! :D ;) :thumb:
and as a result no short answers :icon_lol:
Legend!! Again thanks for the info very much appreciated
all this will come in handy for me at the weekend
Thanks again
Quote from: Crasm on March 05, 2014, 02:10:02 AM
Legend!! Again thanks for the info very much appreciated
all this will come in handy for me at the weekend
Thanks again
No problem. As you can tell, once you get a feel for it you can tell what needs to be adjusted and address several aspects of the tuning at the same time. For example, very lean idle, hesitating a lot, and lean throughout you know you'll need to step up all 3 jets; so you can change them all even while you're still figuring out the best main jet so you at least get the idle close and remove hesitations so that you can focus more on each detail. In this example, you naturally want to come back and fine-tune everything after you found the best main.
So next question is ive gone for a 147.5 main what if that is to lean and say a 150 ia to rich what happens then??
If that were to occur, then you would need to raise the needle on the 147.5.
- Bboy
All I can say is wow! Rado you are one knowledgeable individual, I think I should just come over to the US and let you ride my bike, hahah.
I'm slowly learning. Done about 100 miles since the k &n and rejet. Noticing that the bulk of pull I feel like is 3-5.5k. Been rarely going over 7k though, this delkevic sounds so damn nice in the lower rev range!! Bottom end of revs, the front end actually lifted up a tad today when pulling off, so I think that end is good, top end the revs climb very slow compared to before the changes. Acceleration stops almost at 80 ish. Not sure if I told you this already I've been off past few days, my dog that we've had since 2001, passed away the other day, poor dog :(:(
Going to see if I can get the last screw off the top of the carb so I can do the needle possibly this weekend.
Again, thanks alot rado for all the info, I'll need to read it again tonight to soak it all in, pretty mind taxing stuff!!
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Quote from: Crasm on March 05, 2014, 10:50:01 AM
So next question is ive gone for a 147.5 main what if that is to lean and say a 150 ia to rich what happens then??
Go with the jet that gives you the hardest pull. More likely than not that scenario wouldn't occur, particularly with a performance exhaust.
Quote from: BockinBboy on March 05, 2014, 11:10:22 AM
If that were to occur, then you would need to raise the needle on the 147.5.
The needle tunes the part throttle with respect to the full throttle; if you raise the needle too much you get a hole or flat spot during the transition between 6-7K RPM, which is most noticeable at WOT
Quote from: Jayke on March 05, 2014, 11:11:59 AM
All I can say is wow! Rado you are one knowledgeable individual, I think I should just come over to the US and let you ride my bike, hahah.
Well it's just the Engineer in me. Read a bit and play with things and it comes naturally ;)
Quote from: Jayke on March 05, 2014, 11:11:59 AM
Not sure if I told you this already I've been off past few days, my dog that we've had since 2001, passed away the other day, poor dog :(:(
Sorry to hear about your dog; I bet you miss him a lot :sad: :cry:
Quote from: Jayke on March 05, 2014, 11:11:59 AM
I'm slowly learning. Done about 100 miles since the k &n and rejet. Noticing that the bulk of pull I feel like is 3-5.5k. Been rarely going over 7k though, this delkevic sounds so damn nice in the lower rev range!! Bottom end of revs, the front end actually lifted up a tad today when pulling off, so I think that end is good, top end the revs climb very slow compared to before the changes. Acceleration stops almost at 80 ish.
Going to see if I can get the last screw off the top of the carb so I can do the needle possibly this weekend.
I often run mine up to the redline :D At WOT you should easily feel a hard pull anywhere between 3-9K or so. By the sound of it, your main is probably too small, but you may be close on the mid-main.
Quote from: Jayke on March 05, 2014, 11:11:59 AM
Again, thanks alot rado for all the info, I'll need to read it again tonight to soak it all in, pretty mind taxing stuff!!
It's one thing to just read and try to understand it; once you start playing around with it it'll make a lot more sense ;)
Im already starting to think about 150 main jets . . .
Quote from: radodrill on March 05, 2014, 12:08:37 PM
Quote from: BockinBboy on March 05, 2014, 11:10:22 AM
If that were to occur, then you would need to raise the needle on the 147.5.
The needle tunes the part throttle with respect to the full throttle; if you raise the needle too much you get a hole or flat spot during the transition between 6-7K RPM, which is most noticeable at WOT
LOL, there was a lot of hypothetical missing information there... Guess you put it better - Go with the jet that gives you the hardest pull. But I would add to that - adjust the needle height to give you the best transition with that particular jetting.
Before I rejetted mine - the stock setup would have OK acceleration on WOT, but everytime it hit just past 6k rpm, it would pull much harder, like slide me back in my seat harder. Bad news if I wasn't paying attention, but otherwise particularly fun pulling through a good turn... Since I rejetted though, and adjusted needles a few times, it has a smooth acceleration all the way through - and much stronger 3-9k overall... without that surge at about 6k.
- Bboy
Jetting usually needs to be done backwards ... mains first then needle then mids and then pilots.
But A 89-00 GS will not take any pilot larger than a 40 in stock engine trim and a 01+ will not take anything larger than 22.5 ... unless something else is off - like float level ... so you could actually do it "forwards" depending on your setup.
Cool.
Buddha.
I get paid this weekend so I will probably end up buying some different jets, and float levels? How can I check they're correct? Didn't know you could mess with them.
I really need to find a way of getting that last top carb screw out though, hopefully doing my valves/tappets this week so I will have another bash at it then I guess!
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Quote from: Jayke on March 05, 2014, 07:19:21 PMand float levels? How can I check they're correct? Didn't know you could mess with them.
On the 01+ 3-jet carbs, the float level isn't very adjustable. Basically, you can use a piece of clear fuel grade tubing and attach it to the drain nipple, set the petcock to prime, and hold the tube in a U-shape; with the bike upright, when you open the drain screws the fuel level in the tube is even with the level in the bowls, you want it to be about even with the top of the bowls (where they mate with the carb bodies). If this is off, you can bend a little tang on the floats to adjust when the needle valves are opened.
Quote from: Jayke on March 05, 2014, 07:19:21 PM
I get paid this weekend so I will probably end up buying some different jets, and float levels? How can I check they're correct? Didn't know you could mess with them.
I really need to find a way of getting that last top carb screw out though, hopefully doing my valves/tappets this week so I will have another bash at it then I guess!
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You could try drilling and try using an easy out to get it out. Alternativly drill the head off remove top cover and grip the thread with a pair of mole grips and spin it out.
Not long for me to find out how bad this world of hurt actually is
Radodrill - the e clip is moveable in my carbs , does movung the clip down raise the needle and richen the mixture and moving the clip up mives the needles diwn and lean the mixture??
Quote from: Crasm on March 06, 2014, 12:22:01 PM
Radodrill - the e clip is moveable in my carbs , does movung the clip down raise the needle and richen the mixture and moving the clip up mives the needles diwn and lean the mixture??
All the typos aside - up as it sits in the bike make it richer. Down as it sits in the bike = leaner.
Cool.
Buddha.
Thanks buddha :thumb:
Typos = stupid smart phone qwerty keyboard not big enough for my thumb :icon_twisted:
Quote from: Crasm on March 06, 2014, 12:22:01 PM
Radodrill - the e clip is moveable in my carbs , does movung the clip down raise the needle and richen the mixture and moving the clip up mives the needles diwn and lean the mixture??
you can use the e-clip for coarse adjustment and thin flat washers for fine adjustment.
Well tomorrow morning is d-day for me . Cant wait to get it done and see what its like :cheers:
First question of the day . . Theres a black rubber pipe that comes off the bottom of airbox
Splits into 2 pipes that go to the cylinder head. 1 at each cylinder.
My quedtion is once the lunch box is fitted what do i connect the pipe to??
The stock airbox has 3 tubes attached to it:
- Top is the engine top breather vent (to airbox), with the LB you can leave this tube open or attach a small filter
- Verv bottom is an airbox drain
- other bottom tube goes to the PAIR system, which I believe is what you are referring to.
The PAIR is just some emissions crap that pushes fresh air into the exhaust headers to fool the emissions sniffers. You can remove this and either install block-off plates at the engine or cap those2 tubes with vacuum caps.
Ok thanks for that
Ive fitted my jets , adjusted mixture screws to 3 turns out
Lowered the e clip 1 notch on the needle which i presume highers the needle . .
Put it all back together and now im leaking fuel from somewhere??
Quote from: Crasm on March 08, 2014, 10:25:35 AM
Ive fitted my jets , adjusted mixture screws to 3 turns out
Any idea where the fuel is leaking from?
Did you seat the mixture screws then out 3 turns or just out 3 turns from original location (should do the first)?
Did you take out and inspect the needle valve (under the floats)? Sometimes small particles get in and hold it open.
Did you check/adjust the float level? Could be set too high.
What position is the frame petcock in?
I.wound it in all the way so it was seated and then out 3 complete revolutions.
Ive found the fault - my own chicken up!!
The screws that hold the bowls on , the back 2 next either side of the float hinge :- didnt realise the screws dont go through like the other 2 , they seat in the carb body , well i replaced the nakered screws with slightly longer allen head bolts and just done them up until tight not realising thry had just stoped in the carb body and not pinching the bowl to the body , just looked like it was because the other 2 screws had been nipped up first it looked done
Doh!!
Anyway ive shortened the bolts and now carbs are ready to ho back on tomorrow morning
If no leaks ill take it for a test ride and report back.
I can confirm that the uk model is fitted with a movable needle , that the mixture screws are not capped and the standard jetting is 17.5 / 60 /130
I have a picture of the needle and some internal pictures of carbs that i will post up later
Final thought for now is the standard bowl screws got completly wrecked but came out with no trouble. The top cover screws were a big problem , had to use a dremel to cut a slot into the m
And they still stood firm until i hit them with a blow torch then they cracked straight out.
Bit of advice for any one planning this :thumb:
At least you got it back together and had the right thread screws to replace the overtightened OE screws ;)
Few carb pictures
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y268/smithy86/20140308_110121_zpsfygmemji.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/smithy86/media/20140308_110121_zpsfygmemji.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y268/smithy86/20140308_124334_zps7hyflevt.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/smithy86/media/20140308_124334_zps7hyflevt.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y268/smithy86/20140308_124524_zpsple5wuav.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/smithy86/media/20140308_124524_zpsple5wuav.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y268/smithy86/20140308_124403_zpssp6hoaam.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/smithy86/media/20140308_124403_zpssp6hoaam.jpg.html)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y268/smithy86/20140308_143647_zps4iqcidlp.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/smithy86/media/20140308_143647_zps4iqcidlp.jpg.html)
That is one clean carb! Well, at least compared to mine lol!
Any luck yet?
I've been riding mine on 20/62.5/147.5 I think it is now, for about 250 miles or so, the nut that I put in the exhaust which covers up the baffle hole, is extremely black, assuming this means it's rich, but after 70mph the acceleration is pretty much none existent. So now I've gone from thinking the bike is rich, to lean. I don't even know, I'm still a little clueless to it all, even after all the help!
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[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: Jayke on March 09, 2014, 10:25:25 AM
That is one clean carb! Well, at least compared to mine lol!
Any luck yet?
I've been riding mine on 20/62.5/147.5 I think it is now, for about 250 miles or so, the nut that I put in the exhaust which covers up the baffle hole, is extremely black, assuming this means it's rich, but after 70mph the acceleration is pretty much none existent. So now I've gone from thinking the bike is rich, to lean. I don't even know, I'm still a little clueless to it all, even after all the help!
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You're going to get some black soot in the exhaust regardless of weather you're running rich or lean. That nut looks normal; by no means rich soot.
Have you been able to adjust the needles yet? Having them too low can certainly be causing problems.
Ah right that's cool then, figured black, carbon, rich. Haha that's my judgement. And no not yet, I think Tuesday I will be taking a look at them. Gonna bring out all the stops on that damn screw :D. Although I might actually do it now. 6pm may be a tad late. Would you recommend using the bleed screws to get the fuel out even though I'm only checking needles? :)
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Quote from: Jayke on March 09, 2014, 10:57:15 AM
Ah right that's cool then, figured black, carbon, rich. Haha that's my judgement. And no not yet, I think Tuesday I will be taking a look at them. Gonna bring out all the stops on that damn screw :D. Although I might actually do it now. 6pm may be a tad late. Would you recommend using the bleed screws to get the fuel out even though I'm only checking needles? :)
If you're leaving the carbs on the bike, then there's no issue with leaving the fuel in the bowls. If you're pulling the carbs or removing the float bowls, then you need to drain the bowls.
But yeah light black soot is perfectly fine; heavy dark black soot is rich.
Right got it all back together with no fuel leaks
Got it running to a nice temp but found the tickover was a touch low so adjusted it to around 1200 rpm and it ticked over perfectly .
Took it for an 80 mile blast with my mate and everything is fine. Its pulling hard in every gear from stand still to red line
So all is well few issues such as not setting the throttle cables correctly and having a bit to much play but i can sort that whenever and my clutch needs adjusting but thats nuthin to do
with what ive done just basic maintenance.
So my set up is :- 20/65/147.5 , 3 turns out on mixture screws , needles raised by moving e clip down one notch , idle screw adjusted half a turn.
05 gs500 fitted with delkavic full stainless system with k n lunchbox , k n free flow oil filter , castrol 4t power 1 racing oil
And ngk iridium spark plugs.
Ps lunchbox sound evil on full chat lol
Thank you rado, looks like it will most likely be Tuesday I mess around with it.
And great to hear crasm, will have to order myself a 65 soon, although not too many problems with the 62.5, but better to go with a known working setup ;p.
How about top speed, did you test it? How about the pull after 60-70, mine feels pretty dull, won't go past 80, although there was an almighty headwind, so that wouldn't of helped!
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If im being picky i might turn out the miture screw by half a turn to 3.5 turns just to see what happens but other than that i am chuffed with it!!
Jayke - was on national speed limit public roads so only went up to 70mph ;) . . . . But it got there very well :woohoo:
Quote from: Crasm on March 09, 2014, 12:43:47 PM
Jayke - was on national speed limit public roads so only went up to 70mph ;) . . . . But it got there very well :woohoo:
Find a spot without cops or speed cameras :2guns:
Around here the speed limit is 70MPH as well; the stock jetting got to 95 MPH just fine, but slower acceleration after 65MPH. Rejetted with stock pipe got there a lot quicker. New pipe and upgraded jetting has a lot more bark to it and feels a bit more powerful in town; haven't really tested it on the freeway yet.
Quote from: radodrill on March 09, 2014, 01:16:42 PM
Quote from: Crasm on March 09, 2014, 12:43:47 PM
Jayke - was on national speed limit public roads so only went up to 70mph ;) . . . . But it got there very well :woohoo:
Find a spot without cops or speed cameras :2guns:
Around here the speed limit is 70MPH as well; the stock jetting got to 95 MPH just fine, but slower acceleration after 65MPH. Rejetted with stock pipe got there a lot quicker. New pipe and upgraded jetting has a lot more bark to it and feels a bit more powerful in town; haven't really tested it on the freeway yet.
95 mph on private land / road right?? Your certainly not imploying you break the speed limits on public roads on an open to anyone forum are you?? ;) ;) ;)
lol yeah +1 on that !! ... all testing should be done on a empty road when no one is watching ... errr... trackday session or drag strip ... which is what i do everytime!!!! ;) :icon_rolleyes:
TBH, only on 2 occasions have I had the bike that fast; I mainly keep pace with the rest of the traffic.
And all the testing can be done within the speed limit; just use a lower gear ;) and best during low traffic times.
Well if you get chance see how the pull is at around 70, mine is none existent pretty much lol!
Just be safe when you do, in the meantime, I'm gonna order 2 65 mid mains and on Tuesday I'm going to do the needle.
Hope all goes well and I finally have a bike that runs as intended lol! - This bike has been nothing but trouble since I've had it, anyone who doesn't know/hasn't read my other topics, the previous owner did a 'full restore/rebuild' which by what I think means messed with everything from the ground up, with 0 knowledge. Even less than me lol!
Getting there though!!
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Quote from: Jayke on March 09, 2014, 05:43:04 PM
This bike has been nothing but trouble since I've had it, anyone who doesn't know/hasn't read my other topics, the previous owner did a 'full restore/rebuild' which by what I think means messed with everything from the ground up, with 0 knowledge. Even less than me lol!
At least one thing he didn't mess with ... The carbs. Although, the screws were probably in so tight that he gave up :flipoff:
And looking back, I've read all your previous threads; even the one that turned into a flame war about gas even so I tried to steer it back on topic ;)
Very true lol! Contacted motocarb this morning, they already shipped my 65 jets out on next day delivery, fantastic!
Kinda off topic: is there any way to make sure the back wheel is aligned correctly? I've seen a video where they used a laser tool to do it, but I don't have that. Surely there's a ghetto way to do it, though! Any ideas?
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The idea is to have you front and rear sprockets lined up. There are a number of ways to do that, and ways that existed long before a laser tool lol. Laser tool is probably the best, and most precise way, but isn't necessary.
Some people just count the threads on the end of your chain adjusters that stick out of the rear of the swing arm. That can be very close, and a way I would recommend to others along with checking it out by eye that it looks correctly aligned too. Some people just eyeball the sprockets from the rear of the bike, others aid that with a string. There is a tool made by motion pro that clamps onto the rear sprocket and has a little rod that sticks up to help align it with the front sprocket = eyeball aid... Some will do all of the above. There's probably more ways out there too. It is important to have good sprocket alignment and it will save you a bunch in chain/sprocket wear, but try not to make it into a rocket science.
- Bboy
Could you not just use the notches in the swing arm ?
After riding mine in stop start traffic today ive noticed at pull off with very low rpm and slipping the clutch that its a little hesitant before 1500 rpm but totally fine all through the rest of rhe rev range is this just the pilot not getting enough fuel?? Would say another half turn out of the mixture screw work?? Im at 3 turns cuerently so adjusting it to 3.5 turns out? or would i need to step up to a 22.5 pilot jet??
After aligning wheel using marks on swing arm, or amount screws stick out, or just eyeballing it, I check it with my metal yard stick. I lay the yardstick across the rear tire with extra length forward just below the chain and look down to see if chain and yardstick are exactly parallel. If not fine tune the adjustment. I turn wheel a couple times checking to eliminate possible tire irregularities.
I only check wheel alignment when putting on a new chain and don't disturb it between chains. Chain adjustments are made by taking equal turns on the adjusters a half turn at a time. Wheel can be removed for tire replacement without disturbing wheel alignment adjusters by hanging chain aside over the swing arm.
Quote from: Crasm on March 10, 2014, 10:42:43 AM
Could you not just use the notches in the swing arm ?
Meh.. the plate and notches are OKAY, but they aren't by any means exact... There is just enough play on the plates, that I'd employ several of the above methods in addition to using those.
- Bboy
Quote from: Crasm on March 10, 2014, 10:42:43 AM
Could you not just use the notches in the swing arm ?
Notches on the swing arm can be used but are discounted by many because the free play in the index plate has a lot of slop that can throw you off. I did it that way for a long time before checking with the yardstick by carefully eliminating the free play and it worked out well.
With chain still loose snug down the axle nut a bit so nothing else is loose and put a block of wood under the swing arm from behind up against the bent over edge of the index plate and tap forward on both sides of swing arm. That will rotate left plate clockwise and right side plate counterclockwise and make the adjustment readings quite accurate. Keep everything snugged down until chain adjustment is complete and axle nut tightened.
Quote from: Crasm on March 10, 2014, 10:42:43 AM
After riding mine in stop start traffic today ive noticed at pull off with very low rpm and slipping the clutch that its a little hesitant before 1500 rpm but totally fine all through the rest of rhe rev range is this just the pilot not getting enough fuel?? Would say another half turn out of the mixture screw work?? Im at 3 turns cuerently so adjusting it to 3.5 turns out? or would i need to step up to a 22.5 pilot jet??
Currently I'm at 4 turns with a 22.5 pilot :o Buddha says they can safely be set up to 5 or so turns without the risk of them coming loose. But I may get a 25 and try that out ;)
I noticed that too crasm, asif the revs are kinda spluttering in way. Asked a friend and he said it was normal, don't know about that, though!
Thanks for suggestions by the way guys. Much appreciated :p
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I no what you mean about the index plates theres stupid amount of play in them. I was playing with the idea to see if other bikes index plates fitted better than the crappy gs's.
Radodrill - 4 turns on a 22.5 pilot? Bloody hell !!
Saying that my bike was 4 turns out on standard jetting so might give 4 turns out a try
When i get 5 mins , still got to reset throttle cables and adjust the free play in my clutch leaver so might do it all next weekend
What exactly does it do though? I know it's air/fuel mixture but.... What part of the range does it effect?
And on what were talking about now, is the clutch lever meant to be really heavy? I mean....mine hurts sometimes to hold it in at traffic lights and short stops. Guessed it was just cause I came from a 125 clutch which was light as hell :p
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The more turns out the more fuel allowed though every 1.5 turns is the eqivelant to goin up 1 jet size. And it controls idle and low rpm
My clutch is irrelevant lol i need to adjust the play cuz the cable has stretched and my bites about and inch from the handle bar and the rest is loose just saying i need to adjust it lol
Quote from: Crasm on March 10, 2014, 10:42:43 AM
After riding mine in stop start traffic today ive noticed at pull off with very low rpm and slipping the clutch that its a little hesitant before 1500 rpm but totally fine all through the rest of rhe rev range is this just the pilot not getting enough fuel??
BTW: I generally set my idle around 1500 RPM ;)
Quote from: Crasm on March 10, 2014, 11:44:37 AM
Radodrill - 4 turns on a 22.5 pilot? Bloody hell !!
Saying that my bike was 4 turns out on standard jetting so might give 4 turns out a try
Yep it perked up quite a bit going from 3 to 4 turns :)
Quote from: Jayke on March 10, 2014, 11:47:17 AM
What exactly does it do though? I know it's air/fuel mixture but.... What part of the range does it effect?
The mixture screw controls the size of the idle fuel port located between the engine's intake manifold and the butterfly valves. This only affects the idle and how easy it is to start a cold engine at various temperatures. Lean makes it hard to start at cold temperatures; while rich makes it hard to start at warmer temperatures, yet easier at colder temps.
Very interesting, I'll have a play will that, then. I'm sure my valves clearances and tappets will be doing something too, they're loud as hell :D. Doing the carb needle/65 jets(hopefully) and valve/tappets tomorrow and Wednesday, will let you all know how it Goes, or badly. We will see lol!
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Mines the same !! I think my valves and tappets need adjusting as they have gone noisy since the lunch box
Quote from: Crasm on March 11, 2014, 01:32:36 AM
Mines the same !! I think my valves and tappets need adjusting as they have gone noisy since the lunch box
Maybe not, you do hear some engine noise from the lunchbox. You'll get used to it. It sounds raspy. You can hear the air hissing in, and the engine noise coming out. I love that sound. However I'll never discourage someone from looking at their valves on a gs.
Cool.
Buddha.
That might be it buddha.i can definatly hear all the air noises and alot mire mechanical noises that i didnt hear before the lunchbox was fitted.
Ive got no more poping and bangin on shut off and it needs alot less choke to get it to start from cold .
My set up is exactly what you recommended the only difference is im now 4 turns out on the mixture screws and im much happier with it than the 3 turns out.
But everything you explained to me was spot on and you helped me out massivly so thank you so much for all your help and advice and for being patient with my many questions its very much appreciated.
Also radodrill all your help and advice and explainations helped me out greatly and i thank you for all your help and advice.
And also just thanks to anyone else who contributed to the cause , your all kegends in uour own rights
With a lunch box the joke is - every time you open the throttle, you sand blast the top of your piston.
Cool.
Buddha.
Well I'm going to be picking up a 25 pilot, 65 mid-main, and 150-160 mains so I'll be able to play around and get the optimal jetting for the new exhaust setup :D
Just changed the needles, managed to get the screw off thankfully. Taken a few pictures with my dslr. Will post them up later, time to reassemble and test her out!!!!
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Quote from: radodrill on March 11, 2014, 08:49:48 AM
Well I'm going to be picking up a 25 pilot, 65 mid-main, and 150-160 mains so I'll be able to play around and get the optimal jetting for the new exhaust setup :D
What modifications you running to warrant jets of that size radodrill??
Your making me think mines still running lean lol
Quote from: Jayke on March 11, 2014, 08:52:21 AM
Just changed the needles, managed to get the screw off thankfully. Taken a few pictures with my dslr. Will post them up later, time to reassemble and test her out!!!!
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Changed needles ? hopefully you kept the stock ones.
Cool.
Buddha.
Alright, so I promised pictures of when I did the needle... So here goes:
Last time I dis-assembled the bike, finding the right pipes to go onto the different places on the petcock was a ball-ache, so I 'labelled' them in a ghetto but very effective way.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3738/13087478703_82ae3cdbdb.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13087478703/)
IMG_3452 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13087478703/) by itsJayke (https://www.flickr.com/people/97659672@N03/), on Flickr
Once I'd done that, I removed the carb and removed the needle....
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3594/13087340485_a47114861f.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13087340485/)
IMG_3439 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13087340485/) by itsJayke (https://www.flickr.com/people/97659672@N03/), on Flickr
Here is the Needle, its a 5DH41 and this is how it was when I pulled it out, moved it down a notch like you guys suggested:
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2424/13087649574_646d1dfc04.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13087649574/)
IMG_3442 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13087649574/) by itsJayke (https://www.flickr.com/people/97659672@N03/), on Flickr
Then here are the needles, after is the one closer in the picture, as you'll see, it now doesn't stick out as much.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3254/13087456143_7a9c8dc7d1.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13087456143/)
IMG_3450 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13087456143/) by itsJayke (https://www.flickr.com/people/97659672@N03/), on Flickr
The VERDICT:
I have pull now from 6-10k rpm, how about that?
First thing I noticed was that the RPM's increased alot faster than usual and I had alot more usable power after 5k ish.
Again, I have no way of knowing whether this is correct.... but I'm going to set up my drift on the tank and do a few 0-60 runs of the bike as timing it any other way is hard for me right now.
This info only stands though with the 62.5s, may be better when I get the 65s I don't know.
Only bad thing I really noticed is that the bike sometimes bogs out when at 3.5-4k, though I went straight for 4 turns as Crasm thought it felt better; I may try 3.5 turns to see how it goes but that will be tomorrow!
>>>If you fancy any of the full res images for any reason e.g. the wiki, they can be found here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/sets/72157642210318835/
Interesting
Your needles e clip was on the 2nd notch from top standard and you have moved it down 1 notch
To the 3rd from top.
Now
Mine was on the 3rd notch from top as standard and i moved it down 1 notch to 2nd from bottom
So your e clip was 1 notch higher than mine as standard , we have both moved down 1 notch
But im still 1 notch lower than you are
Interesting difference from an 01 to an 05 uk models
Strange. Maybe one of the pros will have an explanation for that, but it's most likely stock, as getting them screws out of the top of the carbs was HARD! If they happened to be the same. One has been modified. Most likely mine lol, as they have messed with everything else.... :P
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Quote from: Crasm on March 11, 2014, 10:00:18 AM
Quote from: radodrill on March 11, 2014, 08:49:48 AM
Well I'm going to be picking up a 25 pilot, 65 mid-main, and 150-160 mains so I'll be able to play around and get the optimal jetting for the new exhaust setup :D
What modifications you running to warrant jets of that size radodrill??
Your making me think mines still running lean lol
Only performances modifications have been a K&N drop-in filter (without the restrictor ring) and custom fit exhaust. After the filter change and before the exhaust I had it jetted perfectly at 20/60/142.5 with 2.75 turns.
The stock pipe had 30mm ID headers, 40mm ID right after the 2-into-1, then expanded to 50mm ID along the side of the swingarm to the can.
The new can is the back half of a Vance & Hines full exhaust; it is almost a straight pipe and was welded a 50mm ID link pipe. The new headers are from an earlier GS500 that had 40mm ID tubes for the headers and from the 2-into-1 all the way to the stock can; I cut that at the "mid-pipe" and swedged out the end to fit tightly into the V&H link pipe.
Currently I'm jetted to 22.5/62.5/147.5 4 turns and the idle and responsiveness seem pretty good, but at WOT it feels like it may still be running lean; hence an assortment of mains to play with. I figured while I'm at it I'll give the 25 pilot and/or 65 mid-main to see how it behaves. I'll certainly update once I've finalized my jetting.
In your case, if you step up a main size and don't lose WOT pull, then the previous jet was leaner than ideal; if the next size results in a loss in pull, the new jet is too rich. You should find one main that gives you the best WOT pull; that will be the ideal main.
Quote from: Crasm on March 11, 2014, 11:45:34 AM
Interesting
Your needles e clip was on the 2nd notch from top standard and you have moved it down 1 notch
To the 3rd from top.
Now
Mine was on the 3rd notch from top as standard and i moved it down 1 notch to 2nd from bottom
So your e clip was 1 notch higher than mine as standard , we have both moved down 1 notch
But im still 1 notch lower than you are
Interesting difference from an 01 to an 05 uk models
Looking at the Suzuki service manual, the UK spec K5 model came stock with a 130 main and a 5DH57 needle at the 3rd clip position; the UK spec K1 had a 115 main and 5DH41 needle at the 2nd clip position. So for the 05 you probably only need to adjust the clip position if there isn't a smooth transition passing through 6-7K at WOT.
Ahhh that clears the needle problems up, then... I was confused, thought they were pretty much the same lol!
I will probably order some more tonight/tomorrow depending on what happens, right now I need a new chain and sprocket kit which will knock me back a good £80...
Probably just gonna order some 150s, 152.5 and possibly some 22.5 pilots, I think we need to find out which system the delkevic is like most, most likely V&H or Jardine I'm guessing.
Just as an after thought.....
Theres one strange noise, that I don't really know what it is...
Its kind of like a spooling down noise(maybe this will help>>>>)... *wom* *wom* *wom* kind of noise when I stick at a certain rpm after acceleration.
Any ideas?
I never tested it in the 3rd clip position i just dropped it to the 2nd while the carbs were off.
She seems fine but now you got me curious lol.
I turned the air mixture out to 4 turns and turned the idle down a little and to me it seems better.
Im going to check the plugs tomorrow and see what there saying
Hard to know with actually hearing it, or pinpointing a location. But I'll add a note about sounds. I find that at about 5k rpm or so, things that may be a little loose, vibrate at the perfect resonance to create odd sounds... Noticed this first on my frame sliders (T-rex brand) when the crossbar started getting loose. But I have noticed it on other things before too, like the bolt on the sidestand. I don't mean to make it sound like my bike is rattling apart lol, but they were reminders to torque everything to spec again.
- Bboy
Nothing rattling I don't think, maybe spooling wasn't the right word. It's like a 'drone' of sorts. A constant warp warp warp sound. Maybe that helps. I guess I'm kinda bad at describing sounds, don't think I could record it though; it's a very quiet kind of sound that I doubt a recording would pick up. It's kind of like a constant hum, if you hum and then make it louder and quieter over and over. :p
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Quote from: Jayke on March 11, 2014, 02:18:03 PM
Nothing rattling I don't think, maybe spooling wasn't the right word. It's like a 'drone' of sorts. A constant warp warp warp sound. Maybe that helps. I guess I'm kinda bad at describing sounds, don't think I could record it though; it's a very quiet kind of sound that I doubt a recording would pick up. It's kind of like a constant hum, if you hum and then make it louder and quieter over and over. :p
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Ive got that f%$king noise aswell!! Noticed it when i went for a blast on sunday , like hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm . . . I thought it was my front wheel bearing that had worn out
I don't have any odd noises on mine, just the deeper/throatier exhaust sound; it does get a bit of a deeper bark when rolling on hard and some light popping when decelerating, but that's to be expected.
From riding some more I have noticed it still hesitates a little, so 65 mids will be going in ;)
I'm just now wondering how big I'll have to go ti find the ideal main :wink: bit it's certainly more than 2 sizes larger than stock pipe and more than 7 over stock jetting.
Strange, maybe it's on alot of GS's but alot don't notice it?
If this means anything, on the most recent MOT certificate, it says on there that the front wheel bearings could do with replacing, I assume since the previous owner had done nothing else good for the bike, they didn't do that aswell.... will have to check that out, heh!
Maybe it could be the bearings, rado, I'm no pro but it sounds viable I guess...
My 65s should be here tomorrow, not sure whether I should get a 22.5 pilot sent too, since my idle is a little bit jumpy when cold, only through listening though, not literally rpm wise...guess it could just be the engine though.
When my bike is running great and all of these problems are fixed, this thread is going to be a goldmine of carb info lol - I will have to link all of the really helpful posts on my first post at the end of it all. The past few weeks I've learnt so much more, hell, today I just tore the bike apart aswell as the carbs with no worries I was gonna cause any huge damage; that's a first!
Its certainly odd that we both have the same mods and both report the same humming at the same time . . My bikes due its mot next month so will see what that throws up
Well if I'm honest I had it when I had the motad exhaust and no lunchbox, so I don't think it's the mods, not sure really. Maybe it's the bearings lol!
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Quote from: Jayke on March 11, 2014, 03:19:23 PM
My 65s should be here tomorrow, not sure whether I should get a 22.5 pilot sent too, since my idle is a little bit jumpy when cold, only through listening though, not literally rpm wise...guess it could just be the engine though.
Sounds like you might have a loopy idle caused by a lean pilot circuit.
Quote from: Jayke on March 11, 2014, 03:19:23 PM
When my bike is running great and all of these problems are fixed, this thread is going to be a goldmine of carb info lol - I will have to link all of the really helpful posts on my first post at the end of it all.
Funny how "Quick questions" turned into a 10 page thread :embarassed:
Quote from: Jayke on March 11, 2014, 03:19:23 PM
The past few weeks I've learnt so much more, hell, today I just tore the bike apart aswell as the carbs with no worries I was gonna cause any huge damage; that's a first!
That's good. After doing it a few times, you can easily pull the carbs, change jets, and have it all back together in under an hour :cool:
May well order some bigger pilots then, it seems asif every other second, the bike is louder. Asif the rpm changes slightly. Might just be me :p
And I know right? Nothing has been simple since I've had this bike. But I really wanna get it right. May change the topic name, make it more accurate :P.
And yes, I'm getting much faster now!!:)
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Quote from: Jayke on March 11, 2014, 04:41:59 PM
May well order some bigger pilots then, it seems asif every other second, the bike is louder. Asif the rpm changes slightly. Might just be me :p
fluctuating back and forth by maybe 200rpm or so is definitely a loopy idle.
Quote from: Jayke on March 11, 2014, 04:41:59 PM
Nothing has been simple since I've had this bike. But I really wanna get it right.
Best thing you can do; get it running right now while you're working on it anyways then you won't be frustrated with it later on ;)
Quote from: Jayke on March 11, 2014, 04:41:59 PM
May change the topic name, make it more accurate :P.
Leave the title; it's a nice bit of irony for people to see a "quick" thread with a lot of pages of replies.
The rpm counter doesn't really change, but then again it always hovers. Even when the rpm is definitely the same. Not sure what the deal is with that, doesn't bother me much though, but if there's an easy fix you know of let me know :p
It's becoming more of a "Jaykes troubles with his GS mods and fixes" thread :p
And yeah, I'm enjoying working on it right now, so im buzzed to get it right!!!
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Im playing with getting a 22.5 pilot so i can wind the mixture screw in a bit to allow for further fine tuning but we shall see im happy with it 4 turns out but just want to play a little lol
Sounds like a plan, like (I think) rado said earlier, it's all about playing around until we get the best results I guess.
Even though the bikes are the same I suppose the tuning will end up being a little different for each one?(I guess?)
Cause I think 4 turns for my bike right now is too much, gonna try 3 or 3.5 turns today, hoping on my jets coming so I can do it together. :p
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Thats the thing ur mid main is a size smaller than mine and ir needle position is 1 highter than mine would be interesting to see what power were both kicking out with same mods but different carb set ups O0
Quote from: Crasm on March 12, 2014, 03:22:03 AM
Thats the thing ur mid main is a size smaller than mine and ir needle position is 1 highter than mine would be interesting to see what power were both kicking out with same mods but different carb set ups O0
Well my 65s should be here today hopefully so I will be doing that today if they come, not sure if the needle would change alot, no idea :D
I do plan on dyno'ing her though, when I've got everything done!
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7319/13102248134_4afe8582e1.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13102248134/)
GS500 in Nantwich (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13102248134/) by itsJayke (https://www.flickr.com/people/97659672@N03/), on Flickr
First 'long' ride the other day, about 30 miles up to Nantwich, this was before the needle adjustments though but was still a ton of fun!
Quote from: Jayke on March 12, 2014, 03:18:21 AM
Sounds like a plan, like (I think) rado said earlier, it's all about playing around until we get the best results I guess.
Even though the bikes are the same I suppose the tuning will end up being a little different for each one?(I guess?)
Different climates and altitudes can have a bit of an effect on how it needs to be tuned. Also, bear in mind that all tuning should be done around the main jet; if it's smaller than ideal (e.g. for emissions) everything else has to change for it to run right.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/12/dydeba6a.jpg)Do you mean the other jets have to be changed? Aka if I ran 152.5 I'd have to up something else?
Edit: I want my bike to look like the one attached. Phwoaaarr!
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Quote from: Jayke on March 12, 2014, 06:11:50 AM
Do you mean the other jets have to be changed? Aka if I ran 152.5 I'd have to up something else?
Not necessarily:
For small changes in the main size, probably only minor adjustment of the mixture screws or needle height; major changes in the main may require other jets to be changed as well.
case-in point: for the UK spec; when you go to an ideal main (from stock jetting) you have to raise the needles and increase the pilot jet size.
Right I see I see, well I'm learning what to see when things are wrong and where correct them. It's just the corrects that need to be made, but I'm still a newbie, it's coming!!
I suppose it's my good knowledge of building computers, been doing it since I was 7-8, 20 now :p
Bikes are like computers. I guess!
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New vs old. Don't think I need to explain myself. P.o did not love this bike like he said so.
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Bloody hell mate thats worn!! Im suprised it passed last mot like that!!
When I bought it. The guy said that he loved and cherished this bike, that he had always looked after it and serviced it.... Uhhhh. No. :D
Surprises me too, Ive never seen a sprocket that bad before!
She's my baby now, she will be pampered and perfect!!! Lol!
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Yeah, that's pretty bad. Sprocket that bad = guaranteed trouble. That fluctuating you were having... was that just while the bike was still, or were you moving? If you were getting some inconsistent pulling or dragging that doesn't register on rpms... its probably that sprocket/chain. You are replacing both sprockets and chain, right? Those should all be replaced at the same time anyway... but if the rear sprocket is that bad, the front sprocket and chain are in the same boat.
:cheers:
- Bboy
Edit: Oh, and the noise you hear? You think its an effect from that chain/sprocket you had going on there? :confused:
Yes I've bought both front and rear sprockets too. DID set. Having trouble though as I can't get the wheel to go far enough forward. The brake is stopping it as it has a brace holding it in place. Any ideas?(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/13/u7evy9uz.jpg)
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Have you tryed loosening the brake talk arm bolt to allow for any extra movement??
With bolts loosened on both ends of the brake brace and the adjuster screws backed off and the axle nut loose it should move forward. But it's still not always easy so grab the passenger grab handle with both hands and kick the tire hard and it will go forward. Hold on tight so you don't kick the bike forward off the center stand. :icon_lol:
Quote from: Crasm on March 12, 2014, 03:13:16 AM
Im playing with getting a 22.5 pilot so i can wind the mixture screw in a bit to allow for further fine tuning but we shall see im happy with it 4 turns out but just want to play a little lol
Pilots affect idle, yes, but so do mix screws, and you can easily cover the pilot's range with air screw there. But pilot also covers 0-1/8th throttle. That part you can not compensate with air screw.
So if you have a nice idle but are falling on your face @ gentle take off that = pilot is too big.
Especially If you're taking off revved up and fast like a Formula 1 full throttle start just fine - definitely pilots.
Cool.
Buddha.
I managed to do it, thanks for the advice guys. Ended up taking the bolt out for the brace, it then went just fine, getting the brace bolt back in was a little hard but is all good!
What can I say? Other than it looking great compared to the old, my what a difference! I must of been losing power or something because they were so bad I guess.
It feels alot more fluid, changing gears feels great now opposed to the sloppy previous. The cover for the front sprocket and underneath the front sprocket..... just wow.... there was at LEAST an inch thick of gunk in there - it was really really nasty.
Pics Incoming!
New vs Old Rear Sprocket
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7312/13113766953_6829d3edfb.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13113766953/)
IMG_3472 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13113766953/) by itsJayke (https://www.flickr.com/people/97659672@N03/), on Flickr
Old Rear Sprocket Close-Up of Teeth
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2859/13113773473_696f886560.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13113773473/)
IMG_3470 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13113773473/) by itsJayke (https://www.flickr.com/people/97659672@N03/), on Flickr
Old Front Sprocket
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3682/13113956984_36c0979ecf.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13113956984/)
IMG_3465 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13113956984/) by itsJayke (https://www.flickr.com/people/97659672@N03/), on Flickr
Sprocket Cover
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7339/13113968494_ee7e245787.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13113968494/)
IMG_3463 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13113968494/) by itsJayke (https://www.flickr.com/people/97659672@N03/), on Flickr
Inside View.... Ouch!
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7338/13113964244_9fd494a4bd.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13113964244/)
IMG_3462 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97659672@N03/13113964244/) by itsJayke (https://www.flickr.com/people/97659672@N03/), on Flickr
So yeah, bike feels really fresh now and feels like it has more pull, happy days! Just gotta tune up that carb and do some cosmetic changes!
Btw, the new chain and sprockets are REALLY quiet, the old oned made a ton of noise lol!
Sorry if the pics are unwanted, just like to share! :D
Pics are always welcome! ::thumb::
- Bboy
holy snappin duck crap Jayke!! .... Even the worst untended and abused dirtbike sprocket I ever had wasn't like that rear!!! .... Not hackin on you of course?.. But shame on the previous owner for letting them get even close to that bad! .... :icon_eek:
I know right? This is him loving and cherishing his bike too. He said "if you treat your bike well, it'll treat you well too" lol...oh please!
Bit by bit though at least doing everything on this bike, I now know everything is done properly or even done at all.
He said he did a full rebuild and restore. I wish I knew what that actually covered lol! :p
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I had a bicycle that I used as a daily commuter in town for 4 yrs (well over 1000 mi/yr) without a chain/sprocket change; the rear was noticeably worn, but a far cry from the way that one's worn. On the newer bicycle I then replaced the chain about every year before the stretch got to the point of starting to wear the teeth.
On the plus side; you'll know how to do all the service/repairs yourself :)
I guess it's pretty bad then :p I've only ever replaced like 4 sprockets in my biking time, rears that is.
And yes, one last thing to do now, the valves/tappets. Should of been first really but haven't had the time in one space to do it. Gonna try get it done tomorrow I think!!
It's good really, cause I'm learning and getting good results each time, I'm having a ton more fun doing it. Great fun! :p
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Quote from: Jayke on March 12, 2014, 11:05:02 AM
When I bought it. The guy said that he loved and cherished this bike, that he had always looked after it and serviced it.... Uhhhh. No. :D
Surprises me too, Ive never seen a sprocket that bad before!
She's my baby now, she will be pampered and perfect!!! Lol!
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You do know that usually that refers to cosmetics right ...
Mechanically sound is a lot different and it takes a different type of person ... like me. I dont even see mud on the side of my bike. If the chain looks a wee bit dry, it will be splattered with lube. That lube will then get splattered all over me, but I'll be smiling ...
That will bug a cosmetic guy so much he'd rather run the chain dry.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on March 13, 2014, 09:15:45 AM
You do know that usually that refers to cosmetics right ...
Mechanically sound is a lot different and it takes a different type of person ... like me. I dont even see mud on the side of my bike. If the chain looks a wee bit dry, it will be splattered with lube. That lube will then get splattered all over me, but I'll be smiling ...
That will bug a cosmetic guy so much he'd rather run the chain dry.
Cool.
Buddha.
I guess you are very right with that one I didn't think of it that way, I like everything to be working perfectly, then looking the best it can after. Suppose he just liked polishing it lol!
Right, just been out for a big ride.
I think I know what I need to do, let me know your thoughts guys.
Overall the bike now has much better power from 6-9k rpm, but the punch from 4.5-6k rpm is much much greater than the higher end rpm.
There seems to be a little hesitation as if it's a little rich on pull off after being stood still aka at traffic lights so I assume my pilot is too big(?)
And to fix the top end, I guess I should try a 150/152.5 right?
Atm I'm at 20/62.5/147.5 and 3.5 turns.
Or would going down to 3 turns help a little with the very bottom range? As the idle seems a tad(barely noticeable) lumpy.
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I've put 80-100k miles on 4 of the 6 bikes I've owned and have never seen a rear sprocket even close to that badly worn but you'll see a lot of chain lube on my rear wheel most all the time. I have never replaced a rear sprocket on any bike but replace the front one every 2nd or 3rd chain.
Jeez. Then again, this bike had like rusty ass spark plugs, almost no engine oil(of which was black and horrid. Poor bike :(
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Quote from: Jayke on March 13, 2014, 09:29:19 AM
Right, just been out for a big ride.
I think I know what I need to do, let me know your thoughts guys.
Overall the bike now has much better power from 6-9k rpm, but the punch from 4.5-6k rpm is much much greater than the higher end rpm.
The needles are a bit too high; lowering them will turn down the mid range compared to the top end.
Quote from: Jayke on March 13, 2014, 09:29:19 AM
There seems to be a little hesitation as if it's a little rich on pull off after being stood still aka at traffic lights so I assume my pilot is too big(?)
Hesitation is generally a lean mid-main; I'm experiencing the same with a 62.5 and about to put in a 65.
Quote from: Jayke on March 13, 2014, 09:29:19 AM
And to fix the top end, I guess I should try a 150/152.5 right?
If you're still running lean overall, then yes that would help the top end; but you still need to lower the needles as mentioned above.
Quote from: Jayke on March 13, 2014, 09:29:19 AM
Atm I'm at 20/62.5/147.5 and 3.5 turns.
Or would going down to 3 turns help a little with the very bottom range? As the idle seems a tad(barely noticeable) lumpy.
Lumpy/loopy idle indicates your pilot is a bit lean; you might even need a 22.5 pilot.
Right right so if I lower the needle one more, it won't make the mid range worse will it? Just make the difference between the two less noticeable and more smooth right? I think I'm on the right track anyway.
My 65s still aren't here funnily enough. They were sent next day delivery on like Monday or Tuesday can't remember. Strange!
I will see how it is with the needle first, then if I still need to change the main jet, I will order the pilot and the mains together. To save ordering twice!
Thanks again!
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Quote from: Jayke on March 13, 2014, 12:02:04 PM
Right right so if I lower the needle one more, it won't make the mid range worse will it? Just make the difference between the two less noticeable and more smooth right? I think I'm on the right track anyway.
Lowering the needles will somewhat reduce the mid-range pull, but also adjusts the transition to the top-end. Since you notice a drop in pull going to the top end, this should smooth it out. If you feel a sudden increase in pul going to the top end, then your needles are to low. If necessary, you can use flat washers under the needles to get finer adjustment than with the e-clips alone.
Quote from: Jayke on March 13, 2014, 12:02:04 PM
My 65s still aren't here funnily enough. They were sent next day delivery on like Monday or Tuesday can't remember. Strange!
That sucks; hope you get them soon. I just picked up some jets, spark plugs, oil, and filter from the dealer; in addition, new tires are on order :D
Quote from: Jayke on March 13, 2014, 12:02:04 PM
I will see how it is with the needle first, then if I still need to change the main jet, I will order the pilot and the mains together. To save ordering twice!
I picked up all main jet sizes from 150-160; so I'll be able to see what works best for me :cool:
And on my side of things , ive readjusted the mixture screws to 3 and a half turns out and further adjusted the idle so its idling at around 1500 nice and flat and everything is running great so i think thats as far as im going with it as the saying goes if it aint broke dont fix it.
Quote from: Crasm on March 13, 2014, 01:25:03 PM
as the saying goes if it aint broke dont fix it.
Noooooo; If it ain't broke, you're not tryin'.
Quote from: radodrill on March 13, 2014, 12:48:20 PM
Lowering the needles will somewhat reduce the mid-range pull, but also adjusts the transition to the top-end. Since you notice a drop in pull going to the top end, this should smooth it out. If you feel a sudden increase in pul going to the top end, then your needles are to low. If necessary, you can use flat washers under the needles to get finer adjustment than with the e-clips alone.
Ta for the info, well, when the jets finally come...(hoping on tomorrow, damn postal service!) I will get the needles done too and hopefully we will see a positive gain...
I still don't get though how people go SO fast, I got to 85mph and it felt asif my body was going to be torn apart lol and it wasn't even that windy!
QuoteThat sucks; hope you get them soon. I just picked up some jets, spark plugs, oil, and filter from the dealer; in addition, new tires are on order :D
QuoteI picked up all main jet sizes from 150-160; so I'll be able to see what works best for me :cool:
That must of cost alot for all of the jets! Unless ofcourse in America you get cheap jets too :P - 2 jets from motocarb for the GS is £8.50ish + £1 for shipping thats like 16 dollars ^^.
Your bike is gonna love you for sure ;) my bike is in need of new tyres, too; they've not much tread left on them before they become illegal :cry: but I'll be getting some Pirelli Diablo Rosso 2's for her soon. Well, when I have the money lol!
Last of my plans, which will come probably later on this year when the bad weather comes back is a full teardown and MAJOR cleaning + respray of the frame and engine (properly this time)! - But lets get her running great for now :D, couldn't do this without you and this forums help, honestly!
Quote from: Crasm on March 13, 2014, 01:25:03 PM
And on my side of things , ive readjusted the mixture screws to 3 and a half turns out and further adjusted the idle so its idling at around 1500 nice and flat and everything is running great so i think thats as far as im going with it as the saying goes if it aint broke dont fix it.
Great man! Glad you got it all sorted finally after the wait for the jets lol! In time I will be (hopefully) trying to find the best setup I can for what we have, so if I happen to find anything significantly better, I will be sure to let you know about it!
PS: I don't know if there is already, but there should so be a UK GSTwins meetup at some point, that'd be awesome!
Quote from: radodrill on March 13, 2014, 01:40:24 PM
Noooooo; If it ain't broke, you're not tryin'.
Hahahha!!! :cheers:
Quote from: Jayke on March 13, 2014, 03:22:04 PM
I still don't get though how people go SO fast, I got to 85mph and it felt asif my body was going to be torn apart lol and it wasn't even that windy!
Haha; 70-75 seems fine, but I'm not comfortable going much faster on 2 wheels; I'm comfortable driving much faster in a sports car (
on the "track" of course). What gets me is seeing the motoGP riders on the Isle of Mann touching after getting airborne; I don't know how they keep from crashing with such a heavy tank-slapper.
Quote from: Jayke on March 13, 2014, 03:22:04 PM
That must of cost alot for all of the jets! Unless ofcourse in America you get cheap jets too :P - 2 jets from motocarb for the GS is £8.50ish + £1 for shipping thats like 16 dollars ^^.
I found a place online that sells jets for $5.99/pair; I got my local dealer to match that price.
Quote from: Jayke on March 13, 2014, 03:22:04 PM
Your bike is gonna love you for sure ;) my bike is in need of new tyres, too; they've not much tread left on them before they become illegal :cry: but I'll be getting some Pirelli Diablo Rosso 2's for her soon. Well, when I have the money lol!
I ordered a pair of Pirelli Sport Demons :cool: got them for $220 a set; then about $40/tire to have them mounted.
The Bridgestone BT-45s on it now are actually the original ones from the factory; the both have dry-rot (more so the front) and the center of the rear is almost down to the wear bars, while the sides have a lot of tread left; I guess they've mainly seen straight cruising and not much riding in the twisties.
Yeah I know what you mean, seen a few TT people do it, theyre like in the air at upwards of what, 150mph easily, and they swerve on their back wheels after being airbourne.... Scary lol!!
70 is plenty I think, definitely on a naked bike at least, on the roads anyway. I've yet to go to a track as I'm only 20, been riding now 4 years, about 35-40 thousand miles under my belt :D
Those jet prices are freaking amazing lol - I went to my dealer and they quoted me I think upwards of £15 PER jet. The hell??
They're great tyres I've heard, I guess any Pirelli tyres are gonna be great though, they don't have their rep for crappy tyres thats for sure!
If you've never had Pirellis on a bike before, my god you'll notice a difference, they're SO sticky! - Look great too!
Ahhh man, when I've finally got everything done and this thread dies, I'll be sad... I could literally sit here and talk all day everyday lol. Not very often I get to talk to people with similar interests as me, I literally only know like 3 bikers and they're all limited to 125cc bikes and quite honestly are just interested in going too fast and trying to wheely lol! I need to find a biking group that does nice rides really, not sure where to look though :dunno_white:
Just went to 22.5/65/150 with 4 turns. First thing I notice is that when slowly increasing the throttle the RPMs initially respond as expected, then at ~1/8 throttle they jump from around 2.5K to 3.5-4KI'll see how she behaves on the road, but a 25 pilot is looking inevitable.
I think that's what happens with mine. Can't be too sure, it's not too too bad, jets still aren't here. It's abit strange really, 4-5 days it's taken on 'next day' delivery. Last time it came in under 24 hours!!
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On a track day i did a while back when i had my cbr1000 , i touched just over 150 mph down the back straight. I red lined it in 3rd kicked into 4th and wheeled at 130mph that makes your corn hole clench!!
On shut off at 150mph with a cross wind across the track gave the bike a weird back end wobble . . . That to was an arse clenching moment lol
Theres nuthin like a supersports on a track so much fun !!
The over taking power on national speed limit roads (stuck behind tractors) is unreal but you simply cannot use the top end legally , its nice goin for a blast with your mates on a warm sunday afternoon but if you wanna feel what a bike can do a track day is the way . . .
I miss that bike soooo much
I'd love love love a go on a supersports but I simply have no friends that ride bikes bigger than 125cc lol! I don't get it though, at 150mph wouldn't you feel like you're being ripped into pieces lol?! At 85 I was like Ahhhhhhhhh slow down plz
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Fairings mate , once tucked in you feel no wind resistance at all.
However if you shut off and lift your body up over the bubble its like running into a brick wall. Your body acts as a sail.
I sold it because it was just my toy and only came out to play when it was perfect weather.
I moved house and my new house doesnt have a garage and the entry was to tight of fit to get it in my back yard plus i needed something to comure to work on cuz the mrs needed the car alot so instead of keeping it under a cover in the back yard and risk damaging the fairing every time i got it in and out i sold it
I had a bandit 600 before it so didnt want another one and the sv650 was a little to pricey at the time so i went for the gs . . Ill probs keep this another year and then go for a fully faired sv650
Yeah fair enough I guess. Might be rid of the streetfighter lights and get a standard circle one, then get the smaller windscreen I've seen a few using which looks quite nice.
I almost went for the bandit 600 or the sv650 but I'm on the A2 license and I didn't wanna risk the insurance asking for any restriction proof so I just went for the gs too! :P
Plenty fast enough if you ask me, acceleration is plentiful for road use :p especially coming from a 125. I think if I had much more power I'd be more tempted to use it and get myself into much more trouble lol and I have a clean licence and wanna keep it that way.
I'm looking at probably getting a drz400 or a crf450 supermoto after a year, I came from a supermoto and they're just bundles of fun, if you never tried one, try to get your hands on one :D
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Well I'm stepping up the main again :D With 22.5/62.5/150 I had less lean popping during deceleration, but it was still present and the idle is still a bit lean; decided to mess with one jet at a time so main it is for now. Due to the Allen screws on the float bowls, I was actually able to change gets without removing the tank/carbs; it went a bit quicker, but was more of a PITA due to the tight quarters.
Right then got another funny issue
When i done the jets i purposly ran the fuel low so the tank was lighter , so when i finished i rode it straight to the fuel station and brimmed the tank.
My bike has covered 120 miles since however on a 60 mph road it stated to splutter so i put it on
Reserve and went straight to a fuel station , however i could only squeeze 10 litters of fuel in it until it was full again , meaning it still had 7 litres in there
The bike has a 5 litre reserve meaning it still had 2 litres of normal fuel capacity left.
So y on earth would it not run unless it was on reserve??
Its only been like this since changing jets.
Also im sure i get around 200 - 230 miles to a full tank usually so ive almost lost 100 miles of range because of mods and rejetting. . .is this normal?
Shes running absolutly spot on , no issues at all !!
Do you have an inline fuel filter? if so, take it out.
Also, where did you route the carb breather hose? Normally it goes over the airbox and ends near the battery box, where it is sheltered from the wind; I've read that a lot of people with this tube more exposed have had issues withe sputtering etc at speed even with ample fuel in the tank.
No inline fuel filter , carb breather cable tied to frame.
It completly ran out of fuel on normal fuel position on tap.
By the time i had slowed down and stopped it cut out and wouldnt restart until i turned the tap to reserve and it fired up and ran normally.
If i got 120 miles out of 10 litres and still had 7 litres left then there wouldnt be much diffence in fuel economy from what im at now compared to standard.
But why would it run out of fuel with still 7 litres in the tank??
Is the fuel gavity ir vacuum fed to the fuel tap??
I was thinking low fuel pressure in the tank but if that was the case reserve wouldnt have worked either.
Just a funny thing to happen , may have to just let it run through reserve to see what happens and see how much fuel is left after doin 50 or so miles in reserbe
That's strange! All I can say from my end as funny as it may seem, I've been getting more mpg since I've done these changes. Not sure why, I'd expect less but eh!
But overall my mpg is poor as it goes but I do all town riding so it's l stop start, I've been getting about 170 miles from a full tank then I'd have to switch to reserve if I remember correctly.
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Quote from: Jayke on March 15, 2014, 10:54:31 AM
That's strange! All I can say from my end as funny as it may seem, I've been getting more mpg since I've done these changes. Not sure why, I'd expect less but eh!
Sure you're jetted bigger, but you don't have to crank it as much to get the same amount of power. ;)
Think about a loo; if a 1.6 Gallon per Flush (GPF) toilet takes away everything but you have to flush 2-3 times on a 1.2GPF unit to get it all down, then the 1.2GPF is actually using more water.
Similarly when jetted too lean you have a higher specific fuel consumption to get the same power.
Hahahah! Nice example you used there, I guess so though!
Another thing that might be helping is that I love the sound of this delkevic exhaust at 3-5k rpm, and I rarely go past 6k unless I'm accelerating hard. :p
I think I'm going to send her in to have the Valves and tappets done, I don't have any of the shim removal tools and so I don't wanna mess up :x
I've been reading too wrongly aligned tappets/valves give worse performance? I knew they give worse fuel consumption but didn't think performance wise!
Just abit clueless as to what it would cost me. As they charge £50 per hour plus parts. And I bet you even if they do one hour they'll charge for 2!!
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When the jetting is closer to "correct", you have better throttle response (the bike does a better job of doing what you're right hand tells it) and that means your slides can be closed more (throttle position) for the same amount of power and achieve better Mpg. I went up one size on the pilots and mains with an otherwise stock bike and still pulled off mileage in the 60's consistently (open road) with a best of 69.8 Mpg. You wrench the grip more on a lean bike.
Very impressive! Just wondering on a newbie level, how are you getting the mpg figures? Cause obviously I don't know how much fuel I've used to the miles I've done lol!
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Quote from: Jayke on March 15, 2014, 12:05:34 PM
Very impressive! Just wondering on a newbie level, how are you getting the mpg figures? Cause obviously I don't know how much fuel I've used to the miles I've done lol!
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Fill the tank to the brim and reset the trip odometer at the same time. When you need to refill, divide the trip odometer reading by the amount of fuel you put in (same level as before) to get your mileage ;)
You can also use the trip odometer as an approximation of fuel remaining; i.e. if you can typically go say 170 miles till reserve, then around 150 you start looking for a gas station.
Oh... I also went plus 1 on the counter shaft sprocket (17T) along with the jetting change.
EDIT: Unneeded Rpm/high shift points are the biggest killer of Mpg, even on a bike that's at a 100% state of tune, yes I know...the Fun Stuff :cry:
I guess but I try to nevr let it get down to reserve just incase :( I guess I will have to try it properly some time!
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I usually just ride mine to work and back so it rarly sees high rpms . But when i take her for a blast with a few mates shes worked pritty hard almost all hard acceleration is done at wide open throttle mainly because they still have there supersports bikes and i have to ring the neck of the gs just to keep pace.
Still tempted to try a 150 main now ive got my idle and mids all good , just feel it has more to give . . .
Heheh don't forget crasm, someone said on here that GS stands for go slow ;)
My jets seem to have been lost by royal mail, spoke to motocarb and they've sent me replacement ones, great!
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Quote from: Jayke on March 17, 2014, 08:13:27 AM
Heheh don't forget crasm, someone said on here that GS stands for go slow ;)
Actually it's Gran-Sport :icon_razz: :police:
When I'm done with my tuning, it'll be a GS-R500F :flipoff:
Heheh ;) how come? What kind of tuning are ya doing?
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Quote from: Jayke on March 17, 2014, 09:16:35 AM
Heheh ;) how come? What kind of tuning are ya doing?
Suzuki's naming definition for the GS/GSX series is:
GS = Gran-Sport
X = 4 valves per cyl
-
R = race tuned
displacement in cc
Additional letter for specific features; e.g. F = fully faired, G = shaft drive, etc.
So a GSX-R1000 is a race tuned 1000cc GS with 4 valves per cyl.
Quote from: Jayke on March 17, 2014, 08:13:27 AM
My jets seem to have been lost by royal mail, spoke to motocarb and they've sent me replacement ones, great!
Yea Lost by royal mail ... wink wink ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: radodrill on March 17, 2014, 09:26:21 AM
Quote from: Jayke on March 17, 2014, 09:16:35 AM
Heheh ;) how come? What kind of tuning are ya doing?
Suzuki's naming definition for the GS/GSX series is:
GS = Gran-Sport
X = 4 valves per cyl
-
R = race tuned
displacement in cc
Additional letter for specific features; e.g. F = fully faired, G = shaft drive, etc.
So a GSX-R1000 is a race tuned 1000cc GS with 4 valves per cyl.
Interesting, learn something new every day! :D
And Buddha. Yeah lol that's what I was thinking lol!!
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Turns out there was a mistake in the system, some guy rang motocarb and told them he had received two packets of the same jets lol! His name was one letter from mine. Ah well! Ordered 22.5 pilots too! And bought an air compressor for some spray painting, sweet!
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Think i might try 22.5 pilots and 150 mains at some point in the near future i dnt wana play with it but somethings just need to be tryed!!
Wont be until end of april now as its mot is in 3 weeks :sad:
Yeah that's what I'm gonna do too, 22.5/65/150 I think. But I need to do the needle first then test the top end again, been waiting on these jets for over a week now lol!
This is why technology can't be trusted all the time, silly little errors! Just damn glad that the guy that was getting my jets actually gave motocarb a ring :)
Good luck with your mot, sure she will be fine ;)
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I just did my first ever rejet and the first ive taken apart the Carburetor. It wasnt as bad as i thought but there seems like a lot of hoses that i had to disconnect. I have a 2007, am installing a lunchbox filter as soon as it comes in and have a yoshimura slip on exhaust. i just put in 20/62.5/142.5 jets in it. im hoping that will do but need the weather to cooperate before i test it out. From what ive read, it sounds like i might need a 65 mid though. im still learning about how it all works but i think i understand most of it. i did start it up briefly though and it was idling at 4k rpms. i havent adjusted the idle screw or the mixture screws at all yet. im waiting for the lunchbox to come in
Quote from: Blueman on March 20, 2014, 07:43:47 PM
i did start it up briefly though and it was idling at 4k rpms. i havent adjusted the idle screw or the mixture screws at all yet. im waiting for the lunchbox to come in
Was this without a filter? that would result in a lot less restriction on air flow and affect how it behaves.
On a side note: I now change jets without even removing the fuel tank; it's a bit of a pain but not as much of a mess to deal with in terms of fuel spillage.
Yes radodrill, that was without any filter on it. Also, where do I adjust the mixture? The spot where I thought was the mixture screw is just a brass looking cap.
On the US and California versions of the bike, there are brass plugs (size of a pencil) with a small hole covering the mixture screws; you'll have to drill out the hole a bit then thread in a screw and use it to pull out the plug.
Yeah blue its quite scary at first but now I've done it a few times and it's actually quite fun to do. :D
My mid mains got sent back to the royal mail depot because the postman is an ass and doesn't even knock on anymore so I gotta fetch them and my pilots should be here in a few hours hopefully! So gonna do them and the needles today if the pilots come! Gonna be fun. :P
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So I've changed the mid mains to 65s and the pilots to 22.5s and adjusted the needles too, first thing I've noticed after riding it is that the pre 3.5k revs is absolutely horrible now. Splutters like hell until I reach 4k then it's fine.
I think I might have been right in my thinking that my pilot was too rich. It's muuuuuch worse than when I had my 20 pilots in. Any advice? Currently at 3.5 turns too. Gonna try 4 just incase
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Quote from: Jayke on March 21, 2014, 08:31:29 AM
So I've changed the mid mains to 65s and the pilots to 22.5s and adjusted the needles too, first thing I've noticed after riding it is that the pre 3.5k revs is absolutely horrible now. Splutters like hell until I reach 4k then it's fine.
I think I might have been right in my thinking that my pilot was too rich. It's muuuuuch worse than when I had my 20 pilots in. Any advice? Currently at 3.5 turns too. Gonna try 4 just incase
How so?
Have you tried 22.5 pilot with 62.5 mid-main?
It just splutters like the problem I had before. Hesitates like hell before 3.5k then is fine after 4k. The revs rise really well after 4k though and the acceleration feels better. 50-70 was a breeze which not so much before.
It's mainly when Ive been riding then stop at traffic lights. Tends to do it then. Does that mean I need to go more turns on the screw or less? Counterclockwise = more turns and clockwise = less right?
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Gets worse when it's hotter too. Just tried to pull off from trafic lights and it was like chug chug chug. I thought it was gonna stall then the revs shot right up to like 5k. Grrrr. Don't know what's wrong!
It also doesn't like starting. It'll just hover at 300-500 revs and stall. Unless I rev up to like 4k then it idles fine. This is whilst hot by the way!
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Quote from: Jayke on March 21, 2014, 08:55:47 AM
It just splutters like the problem I had before. Hesitates like hell before 3.5k then is fine after 4k. The revs rise really well after 4k though and the acceleration feels better. 50-70 was a breeze which not so much before.
It's mainly when Ive been riding then stop at traffic lights. Tends to do it then. Does that mean I need to go more turns on the screw or less? Counterclockwise = more turns and clockwise = less right?
Hesitation is typically lean.
On the mixture screws; it's a right hand thread. Lightly seat it (turning clockwise when looking at the bottom of the carbs) then unscrew it X turns out from seated. So more turns is further out.
Give me a little bit. I'll put my drift hd on and video it for you. It may not be hesitation as I dont know the proper terms for it. But it's definitely worse now with these jets pre 3.5k. Mid range to top end is great up to 70. Way too windy to try anything more while feeling safe
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Quote from: Jayke on March 21, 2014, 08:31:29 AM
So I've changed the mid mains to 65s and the pilots to 22.5s and adjusted the needles too, first thing I've noticed after riding it is that the pre 3.5k revs is absolutely horrible now. Splutters like hell until I reach 4k then it's fine.
I think I might have been right in my thinking that my pilot was too rich. It's muuuuuch worse than when I had my 20 pilots in. Any advice? Currently at 3.5 turns too. Gonna try 4 just incase
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Rich rich rich ... OK this is the basic symptom read.
Problems when you are opening the throttle are usually rich. Problems at steady throttle are typically lean.
The problems with being rich usually get worse with increasing ambient temperature. The problems being of lean get better with increasing ambient temerature.
Rich problems typically show up only when the bike is warmed up - they usually dont show up when cold. Lean problems are bad when cold, and dont improve much when warmed up, but they can sometimes improve enough for you to notice.
Anyway I suspect the 22.5 is too rich, but try turning the air screw in if you want to adjust it via air screw instead of the 20's.
Cool.
Buddha.
So for example if I try like 2 or 2.5 turns it could run better? I was about to try 4.5 turns as with 4 turns it still did it.
What ya think?
Thanks for the reply :p
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Quote from: Jayke on March 21, 2014, 10:34:36 AM
So for example if I try like 2 or 2.5 turns it could run better? I was about to try 4.5 turns as with 4 turns it still did it.
What ya think?
Thanks for the reply :p
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It could ... but pilots control 0-1/8th throttle. Air screws are at idle to 2k.
If it does run better ... well, make sure you're not rich as you are taking off ... that's where you use pilots.
Cool.
Buddha.
Will try it out. Gonna record it so you guys can see exactly what it is! Going out now to record it!
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Its all trial and error dude . Ive kept with the 20 pilot but altered the air screw alot trying different positions.
Ive noted that 2 turns and 2.5 turns out is very lean ,3 turns out lean , 3.5 turns out perfect , 4 turns and 4.5 turns out rich.
My needle and mids seam perfect but im still tempted to try a 150 main . . .
Well thats if i dont part ex it for a gsxr 600 after ive put it through mot . . .
I miss having power soooo much !!
The gs is better than its ever been but im missing the power of a supersports so it might be going to make way for one
Yeah I'm all about getting it right now, so so close! Gonna go back to the 20 and then use the mixture screw to fine tune to what I feel is best.
On a more important note. When I did my bike the other day I noticed that the top engine cover - the one at the very top of the engine actually has a small leak and there was some oil there.... Think the gasket has broken down. Going to send it in this coming week to get the valves done since I don't have the shim tools and such.
After that, gonna hee her dyno'd and assessed to see if all is well.
Looking forward to doing it! If you happen to know anything I can use to do the shims properly cheaper than sending it in that'd be great. Sad I haven't got a 3d printer as I could print the tools off!!!
And nice crasm, I think I need to mature as a rider a little before I get more power. The gs is alot for me right now! :P ride safe man!
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Quote from: Jayke on March 22, 2014, 01:29:48 PM
Looking forward to doing it! If you happen to know anything I can use to do the shims properly cheaper than sending it in that'd be great. Sad I haven't got a 3d printer as I could print the tools off!!!
The valve shim removal tool isn't that expensive; the labor cost for having the shims adjusted would probably cover the tool and a shim kit. when it comes time for mine to be adjusted, I'm just gonna buy the kit and do it myself.
I guess. The tool on eBay is £25 shipped. That's like 40$ then I would have to buy the shims and the gaskets.
As for the shims I'd have to find out which I needed I think cause the only kit I see is like £100. Not sure for the gasket prices. Will have to get some prices I guess! See which is best :)
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We used to have a kit floating around. The guy that had it got arrested or something.
Anyway in the US valve adj work @ a dealer, minimum 300 bones.
They charge you 200 of that to look at it.
Cool.
Buddha.
I dont no what the exhange rate is but ive been quoted £120 plus parts to have it looked at and
Adjusted here in the uk. On the plus side a friend of mine is a head tech for harley davidson uk
And has checked mine over and all is apparently well so im all good .
Think im going to have a play cosmetically. Starting with taking the grey decals with gs500 off the rear side fairings and possibly replacing them with the suzuki relentless decals and maybe a small street fighter style screen and then maybe a belly pan and rear hugger .
Also after 14 months of standard crappy mirrors im goin to change them for somethin that i can actually see behind me instead of just seeing my shoulders and a bit of sky just above them. And i think ill look into improving front forks as ive desided the rear is good enough for me just not happy with how bad the front dives .
Just shows i genuinly like this bike and i want to improve it even though my head is screaming at me to sell it . . .
Only time will tell
Not sayin naked bike is bad... I've had mine that way.... I do know with stock fairing and mirrors mounted on it... I don't have shoulder/elbow view ... They adjust real easy to actually see behind me
One 'advantage' I guess! :thumb:
I have massive shoulders and I only see a little bit of my shoulders with the mirrors, that's strange :P
Looks like I'll be doing the valves myself I guess, gonna save me a hell alot of money.
As for cosmetic mods I've thought about the belly pan, just wouldnt know where to get one that'd fit to be honest. Gonna get some renthal ultra low bars too and some hand windguards probably.
And hey crasm, maybe you could just have a gixxer or an r6 as a sunny day toy but the gs as a commute, :P that's what I'll probably do but with a drz400/crf450 and a r6 or something :D
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Found a belly pan on a random google search from a company for 65 quid and it comes in carbon or various other colours.
Wished i had the money to run 2 bikes a car a house and a mrs and 2 young kids lol
Thats y i was thinkin of sellin the gs for a gixxer 6 . . . I dnt no im in 2 minds about it and it dont help that i genuinly like this little gs :thumb:
GS is gonna cost less to run than the gix!!!
Running costs dont bother me mate ;)
I picked up a shim kit and tool for $55 on here awhile back...
needed a new digital caliper -12$
feeler gauges - 8$
= $75 total
was quoted $235 to do it at the local dealer... which is pretty cheap from what I understand...
But, I did save money, I have the stuff to do it again other than a gasket I'll get for next time, and of course the satisfaction of having done it and knowing it was done correctly.
- Bboy
Hiya guys, been a while, had a new phone and forgot to install tapatalk (oops!).
Ended up getting my valves done by a shop near me, aparrently two were way way out and the other two were off, but not half as much as the others.
That sorted out one of the ticking sounds that it had. Just stuck with the last quite loud ticking sound. Sounds like it's coming from the right side engine case more so than the left, originally I thought it might be a spark plug tick so I went and put some higher grade fuel in to see if it was the problem. I thought it fixed it at first, then the tick came back the next day!
Other than that, I went back to the 20 pilot which made it much better(pre 4k) but it still chugs and struggles a bit, gonna try the 17.5pilot as it seems too rich there still, even at 3turns on the 20.
One other thing I did notice is after 8k revs it seems to take forever/have no pull I guess you could say. Not sure what it is now I've had the valves done. The fastest I could get would be I'd say 87-89mph indicate, this is with no headwind, flat surface and laying on the tank.
Ps :with the valves now done, I accidentally felt the front end lift a tad when pulling off swiftly. Never did that before! Must be getting there!
Just wondering too, there are three lines that come off the tank, where does the thin one go? Assumed it doesn't go anywhere and is just to pull air, anyone know?
There's also no hose on the top of the carb, in the middle of the two carbs.
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The thin one is the tank vent. It goes down to the right hand side of the bike near the rear brake at the bottom of the frame. If you have a faired model, it hides just behind the bottom edge of the side fairings.
- Bboy
Ah sweet thank you! Have had it just draped near the air filter since I did it the first time. As for this one, what actually attaches here? It's a 2001 model.
Had a look on Google and there's only one place, and that seems to be pre 2001 :(
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There is two 'T's on the carbs, that look very similar to each other. I think that is the top one which is the carb vent tube (the lower 'T' would be for your fuel line into carb). For lunch box, I'm not exactly sure what is the best routing - but it is very important for the tube that connects there to terminate out of any wind, and no kinks (otherwise fuel starvation problems). With the stock airbox, the routing of that tube goes over the airbox and tucks in between the other side of the airbox and the battery. I would think if it were routed behind the battery box, that it should be fine there, but I don't know if it will reach without kinks using the stock length tube - may need a longer one or extend it if its too tight and kinks somewhere - but I'd think that's probably the best location using a lunchbox.
- Bboy
Alright great thanks.
Just tried the 17.5pilots again which were the original ones in the bike, and it doesn't stutter or anything, no hesitation at all which feels great; just one problem. The revs are going down slower than when I had the 20 pilots in, say, if I rev it to 4k, it'll drop to 2.5k then from there to idle it takes longer than usual. Could that be the jets need cleaning out? I blew through them and looked thru them and they looked fine so not quite sure.
With your gs, does it rev fast after 8k? Or does it feel like mine, any gear other than first, it feels at 8k rpm it hits a wall and doesn't wanna go far past it. It will, just will take forever.
Running 17.5/65/147.5 3turns
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I finally settled on 22.5/62.5/142.5 she's running really strong now; just fine tuning the idle. It pulls hard up to redline; only slightly jerky coming from closed to slight throttle.
When I had 150+ mains it felt like it was hitting a wall near 9K rpm.
Yeah mine still revs to redline - would prolly keep goin up if I let it lol. I'm jetted with 20 pilots, and 132.5 mains, stock mids, one washer - I have stock airbox/filter, and a 'no-resistance'/very free-flowing exhaust
- Bboy
Edit: Transition feel maybe a little lean, but I don't think enough to raise the mid... thought of tryin another washer, but being start of season, I'd rather ride than fiddle ;)
I'm assuming you mean 147.5 radodrill, not 142.5
I'm curious to know how your spark plugs look. Are they brown or a little black? Right now I'm on 20/62.5/145 and I want to try 147.5 main. With my current setup, my plugs are mostly white with a very little bit of brown. But how do I know if I should step up to 22.5 pilots?I'm at 3 turns out and I'm idling at about 1400 rpms. The idle comes down steady until about 2k rpms then it comes down a little slower.
Quote from: Blueman on April 14, 2014, 01:06:22 PM
I'm assuming you mean 147.5 radodrill, not 142.5
I'm curious to know how your spark plugs look. Are they brown or a little black? Right now I'm on 20/62.5/145 and I want to try 147.5 main. With my current setup, my plugs are mostly white with a very little bit of brown. But how do I know if I should step up to 22.5 pilots?I'm at 3 turns out and I'm idling at about 1400 rpms. The idle comes down steady until about 2k rpms then it comes down a little slower.
I am indeed running a 142.5 main; it gives way better power/pull than a 147.5 main.
With a stock pipe and K&N drop-in I was running 20/60/142.5 at 2.75 turns out and she was running perfectly; plugs were sort of a tan color.
With an upgraded exhaust I've settled on 22.5/62.5/142.5 currently at 3 turns. Initially I assumed that the 142.5 would be too lean and stepped up to a 145 while I had the bike apart. Since it didn't feel like it was pulling too hard I kept upping the main, but at 152.5 it was guzzling a lot of fuel and choking at 9K RPM WOT (and smelled super rich); with the 150 it still smelled slightly rich. And the 147.5 just didn't have the pull I knew it should. Popped the 142.5 back it and it pulled hard the way I like it.
With the new pipe I had to step up the mid-main since it was hesitating like crazy. I put in the 22.5 pilot since it was having some cold start issues at low outdoor temperatures.
Very interesting, may well have to order 142.5s myself, cause it's really like hitting a brick wall at 8k like your prob was, will try it out when I get some money and let you guys know!
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Quote from: Jayke on April 15, 2014, 02:56:56 AM
Very interesting, may well have to order 142.5s myself, cause it's really like hitting a brick wall at 8k like your prob was, will try it out when I get some money and let you guys know!
It'd keep going up to redline, but it was like it suddenly lost it's breath near 9K
Yeah that's exactly the problem. I tried it in first gear, got up to redline but not full speed. Was just checking to make sure it wasn't anything restricting. Let's hope that's the problem, then everything will be sweeeet!
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also if it easily goes to redline at 1/2 throttle and chokes at WOT, then the main is too big.
Since it's been good Friday and bank holiday Monday, my jets still haven't arrived. On the plus side, for my bike especially, my girlfriend has gone away on holiday, so I have time free to do a lot of work on the old bike....
This is the bike atm, stripping her down and totally giving her a well needed makeover. Bugged me since I bought it kinda, never had the spare time... Got some new renthal ultralows coming, a circle headlight, new tank grip and a bunch of other stuff too, should be great! Did 9 hours solid today on it, you can't see most of it though as it's all in the garage!!
Took this pic though, cause it reminded me of a cafe racer, would love that look!
Will keep you guys updated if your interested :)
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[attachment deleted by admin]
So about 70hours of work later, my bike is finally done, took it out for a ride tonight and lone behold the one thing that we didn't mess with (that the p/o did... Butchered) was the wiring. So was riding about and wires have been snagged and all sorts, since the loom is so ragged, and I mean literally... Every single wire pretty much has been chopped and twisted with just tape covering most of it...
Been looking on eBay to cut the story short. At buying a loom from someone, since this is a 2001 model, would this one be good?
I'm not sure how the wiring would be on the other models hence why I'm asking..
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=181364514526&alt=web
If you can't see it, that's a 2003 loom which I would hope to think would work great in my bike.
Any knowledge shared would be perfect, it'd save me alot more time if I could just buy a loom rather than trying to fix this abomination!
Thanks alot!
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Unfortunately our resident parts guru (adidasguy) just passed; he would have known all the differences in connectors etc.
That said, the 03+ (04+ in the US) models had a Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) that was not present on the 01/02; so it probably won't work.
Have just been reading that, how terrible :( he was such a great, knowledgeable guy! Never really got to know him but he was always one if the first to give his opinion on things huh.
As for the loom, guess I will try and find a 01/02 one then, just none on eBay as I can see so far!
Will snap a few pics tomorrow of the bike, she's looking good...
And the 142.5 seems to run great, need to have the bike running properly though to test the upper end. But the 10 miles I did do felt fab.
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http://www.imgur.com/HKmrIZU.jpeg
Check out this wiring disaster, wires changed everywhere... Can't get anything to come on when I turn the key. Assuming it's an ignition fail. Trying my best!
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That sure is a real clusterF of a wiring hack job. If the PO simply twisted wires together then wrapped with tape, then it's very likely one or more of those joints has come apart. I guess the question is weather you want to just buy a replacement harness, make one recycling the connectors, or properly fix all the joints with solder.
Well we spent a few hours today sorting out what we could. Managed to get everything working great after a bit of trail and error.
Here's the bike btw, after a few changes :P
http://www.imgur.com/og4bxUg.jpeg
http://www.imgur.com/2FBxvAP.jpeg
And with the new jet, the 142.5 down from the 147.5, accidentally jumped the clutch earlier and felt the front wheel come off the floor an inch or two, must be good, acceleration feels superb! Just need to get that pilot sorted out now, 17.5 seems perfect, just revs hang a tad/go down slower than they do with the other pilots in . Tried cleaning them out, still the same. Gonna try a few more turns on the air mixture screw tomorrow.
After all the trouble with the bike, it's safe to say now I literally know this bike inside out. I've learned so much from tinkering hours on end!!
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hey guys i have read most these pages and still havin a problem with my bike not wanting to idle. i have a k&n drop in and a delkavic exhausted with out the silencer. i have 140 main jets and the rest of the jets are stock. i have tried moving the throttle sensor thinking it help with the timing, Ive adjusted the air/fuel mix screws. nothing seems to help. i have to hold the throttle at 2 grand to keep the bike running. As soon as i let off it dies. its an 04 500f, american version. please help!!!! my brain hurts from thinking about all the possible issues. :cry:
Quote from: tireeater on April 30, 2014, 07:30:11 PM
hey guys i have read most these pages and still havin a problem with my bike not wanting to idle. i have a k&n drop in and a delkavic exhausted with out the silencer. i have 140 main jets and the rest of the jets are stock. i have tried moving the throttle sensor thinking it help with the timing, Ive adjusted the air/fuel mix screws. nothing seems to help. i have to hold the throttle at 2 grand to keep the bike running. As soon as i let off it dies. its an 04 500f, american version. please help!!!! my brain hurts from thinking about all the possible issues. :cry:
Sounds like your idle may be way lean; with the drop-in and stock pipe (2009 US model) I was running 20/60/142.5 jets with 2.75 turns, after I custom fit a new can I went to 22.5/62.5/142.5 with 2.75 turns.
Also, be sure your throttle stop is set so it keeps the butterflies open a little bit.
thanks man, do you think a 20 piolet jet will be to small?? and your right about the butterflies, i have playing with them so it would idle alittle but it never helped so it all outta wack.
From what I have learned it's different for each bike and location I guess, cause crasms was great with the setup, but wasn't perfect for me since we live in different altitudes I guess :P
All I can say is try out different jets and combinations to find what's best for your bike.
Rado will give you an estimated set of jets though! Should be something similar to what I've been using though!
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thanks for the help guys. i live in Cincinnati, ohio. so everywhere i go the altitude is different. it like our weather. sunny and 80's one day and 35 and snowing the next. is crazy. but ill keep yall updated and see if i can get it fixed.
Good luck! Patience is key! I've had mine open like 20 times now and still not perfect :P
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Quote from: Jayke on May 01, 2014, 02:08:07 PM
From what I have learned it's different for each bike and location I guess, cause crasms was great with the setup, but wasn't perfect for me since we live in different altitudes I guess :P
All I can say is try out different jets and combinations to find what's best for your bike.
Rado will give you an estimated set of jets though! Should be something similar to what I've been using though!
There are a lot of things that factor in; altitude does have some effect, but I'm not sure how significant it is, it could very well be something that can be compensated for on the mixture screws.
Another factor is of course personal preference and riding style; tamer riders might want to go lean for better fuel economy.
From what I've found, the intake is the predominant factor for the ideal main as that's the bottleneck for air flow into the engine; changing the exhaust doesn't seem to significantly affect the WOT and top end behavior. The exhaust seems to mostly affect the idle and low end transition regions.