I know that the stock front forks from the factory sucked, however did it really suck this bad from day one?
So I was out in the country, and around a bend was long gash in the road about 3" deep and 3 foot long so I couldn't avoid it....I was rolling about 25-30MPH and it felt like rim hit. So I pulled over checked the week for damage, there was none, tire was at 33psi so all was fine.
I think the forks bottomed out, is it time for fork service already after only 11k and 10 short years?
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Checking seals isn't a bad idea, but the short answer is that the stock fork springs, regardless of age, only serve as placeholders for your preferred upgrade.
This is the case even if you ride slow. The stock springs are simply not good.
Top is Sonic Springs
Bottom is stock with spacer.
Middle might be stock European spring or 2004+ spring - I forget which at the moment - with spacer
(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/GS500/DSC01155a.jpg) (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/adidasguy/media/GS500/DSC01155a.jpg.html)
He he he ... they are a POS and once you learn how to ride they are a even bigger POS.
Cool.
Buddha.
I haven't leaked any fork oil since i got it....its quite easy to tell since I've only washed it maybe 2 or 3 times =)
I guess Ill have to look into some new springs or a different fork
The same thing has happened to me a couple of times since owning my bike - I've put it down to shocks bottoming out due to leaky seals and no more shock oil.
I'll tell you riding with empty front shocks and misaligned rear wheel on a windy day is no fun.
I did notice that loading up the rear of the bike with luggage really unweighted the front wheel and caused pretty much all the low shock oil problems to go away!
Luckily I dropped it into the workshop this morning for a fork service so I'm anticipating that when I pick it up it will feel like i'm riding a silken dream made of love compared to what I'm used to.
I have never had a problem with them but then I only weigh 68kg. How much are fork upgrades?
A lot of people around here use sonic springs
http://www.sonicsprings.com/catalog/
I think that they have prices on that site
Fork oil helps; the oil breaks down just like engine oil. At 10K miles, your fork oil is probably thin, black, and full of metal.
With that said, even with fresh oil, the stock forks suck. Springs help immensely. Proper valving will help absorb the bumps without softening up damping under breaking. I can still tell a huge difference between my fully upgraded stock front-end and the GSX-R forks I installed.
I've been weighting my options as of right now I think the best thing to do would be to change the oil and and give it a go, worst case I end up wasting a weekend working on the bike.... :icon_mrgreen: don't mind that at all, I'll post back and let you guys know how it go's next weekend
I'm always a fan of if its not broke don't fix it, but after looking at the book and all is it worth while to replace the old seals? If I'm only replacing the oil?
It's broke from the factory, as far as I'm concerned.
I wouldn't bother replacing the seals unless they are actually leaking. Replacing the seals is way more involved than changing the oil. I would advise you to pry up the dust seals, clean up, and try to work a little grease under the fork seals.
Replacing the fork springs is pretty trivial. I'd do it while the forks are apart. It makes a huge difference; I would not ride a stock GS if I had any say in the matter.
just picked up my bike after the fork service and wow what an improvement.
I wouldn't say it turns any sharper, just so much lighter to turn the handlebars and a much more stable and smooth ride.
I'll still have to upgrade the springs one day - when the budget allows it
Well the forks are hanging right now to drain, and my god the oil I was thin and black....it was way over due. (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/29/yta8emyb.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/29/qagybuve.jpg)
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That's way way less oil than I'd expect to see out of a pair of forks. There should have been half a liter of oil in there. Check your seals? You may be due for a full rebuild.
Sorry for the deceiving picture half the oil went into a different drain tub, i didn't measure the amount hat came out but I'm sure it was close to the 380 cc that should be in there. The oil is so thin that I'm surprised that it was doing any thing
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Okay, good. A full rebuild isn't a lot of fun. :)
New oil is in, seams a million times better, it's raining today so I only went around the block so it won't be until at least tomorrow I should know for sure
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Well its better but still not great >:( I'm thinking I'm going to try increasing the oil level to 100mm instead of 110. Any one know what worst case is ? Is it just going to be rock solid or am I going to blow the seals?
Money is tight right now but I'd rather get a new pair of riding paints or some thing else before i end up with new springs.
Did you try heavier oil, or stay with stock 10W? ... I'd suggest at least 15, If not 20 if you still have stock springs.
- Bboy
Kept stock weight, didn't want to change damping speed.
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Just added some more to each side, it nice and firm now! It's up to 450cc on each leg , is that to much ?
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I'm reading the thread and come to conclusion I need to check my fork, too. With gear and backpack I weigh about 210 lbs. And when I brake hard I totally hit the limits. No fun. Bike's from 2006 and judging how it was mistreated by the previous owner - the fork oil has probably never been replaced, or even checked.
I was considering getting the sonic springs. Do you think I should go for the 0.85 or 0.9?
When I order the springs do I need to order anything else? I heard something about PVC tube that you need to cut to size... Is that right? Or springs come with everything I need?
I have .85 sonics... I bought them when I weighed 190lbs(maybe another 10-15 with gear)... Then lost 30 lbs in ten weeks, and another 10 since, and I was riding often during that time. What I noticed was that at 190 the .85s were great for everyday easy riding. But they were still lacking if I was pushing through the twisties. Now at my current weight of 150 the .85s are on the verge of being too stiff for everyday easy riding, but excellent for riding more spirited - which I now do more often than not anyway. Now depending what kind of riding you do, you may want them softer or stiffer, but from my personal experience I'd suggest .9s only knowing your weight... But the best person to chat it out with would Rich Desmond who is a member here on the forum and owner of sonic springs.
- Bboy
Were finally getting a break in the rain so today Ill be taking it out to push it. I weigh 200 with out gear and maybe another 10-15 with so it should be interesting to see how it dose!
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I'm pretty sure stock is 15 or 20. 10 is way too light.
100mm should be okay with the stock springs. Eyeball it to make sure that you aren't going to hydrolock when the forks bottom out.
Stock is indeed 10W :cookoo:... I had also replaced with 10W when I swapped for sonic springs. I have since replaced with 15W, and I have been satisfied by the change. Before, just the springs were a huge upgrade so I it was hard to notice or realize the 10W was too thin. I suppose it may depend on the conditions in which you ride and the damping you actually need for that, but 15W was more suitable for my conditions... and I think most folks would find 10W is too thin also if they experienced the difference.
- Bboy
Quote from: robfriedenberger on April 30, 2014, 11:55:25 AM
Just added some more to each side, it nice and firm now! It's up to 450cc on each leg , is that to much ?
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(http://www.gs500.net/gallery/data/500/stock_fork_oil_level.jpg)
Thanks for the info, I was just wondering if any one had any Info when hydrolocking becomes possible, I haven't bottomed them out yet but I did take a ride with my wife and I was impress how it handled under breaking. I was lazy after I realized it wasn't much better after u changed the fluid to stock levels, so instead of ripping every thing apart I jut topped it off while on the bike. So idk what the level is at right now. I don't think I'll bottom them out under normal conditions now, even under heavy breaking (almost and endo) they don't bottom out!
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Quote from: BockinBboy on April 30, 2014, 07:45:00 PM
the best person to chat it out with would Rich Desmond who is a member here on the forum and owner of sonic springs.
- Bboy
I heard about Rich before, how do I find him here?
and do I need PVC piping?
Another quesion concerns this:
Quote from: gsJack on May 01, 2014, 10:36:20 AM
(http://www.gs500.net/gallery/data/500/stock_fork_oil_level.jpg)
It states the oil level without the spring and with the fork compressed. Now, sonic springs are longer and have larger volume of metal. And from the pictures I've seen - you don't need the big spacer that comes in originally. Is there a correction factor for these changes? or do I just take my original springs out, spacers out, suck the old oil out, pour new oil in up to 99mm from top, drop in the new springs, spacers(?) and put the caps in?
I really wanna do it, just want to be sure I'm not missing anything. I wanna do this the easy way, like described here (except using sonic springs):
http://pantablo500.tripod.com/id2.html
Sonic Springs come with PVC which you cut to size (1'' diameter schedule 80 I think, and cut them level with top of fork tubes). They also come with some washers to help zero in on your sag. I wish I wrote down what I put into each fork, because I did do it the 'lazy' way too when I replaced my springs... I had drudged up a number in mm from the top, posted on the forum from someone who had done it the 'correct' way first, and later measured what it was when they were not compressed. I marked a tube to that length in mm and siphoned it to the correct level using that mark... Now, I still have the tube, but the mark must have worn off because its not there now! I want to say it was like 115mm or something, but I really cant be for certain on that, because now I'm thinkin' maybe it was 120, 130, etc... So hopefully someone can fill in that void for us - its really bugging me!
- Bboy
I have the Progressive front springs and they specify a 140 mm (5.5 in) oil level to accommodate the heavier springs. Don't know for the Sonics but it's probably closer to the Progressives than to the stock springs. Will add to above info.
I took the Progressives out of my 97 GS and put them in my 02 the easy way. Just hung the front end and sucked out some oil to drop them in, no need to pull fork tubes.
I have just fitted Hagon progressive springs to my 98 GS and it has transformed it. I'm a lighter rider and was bottoming out the suspension regularly. The bike is so much better now.
The stock springs are truly poor. :D
Quote from: robfriedenberger on April 30, 2014, 11:55:25 AM
Just added some more to each side, it nice and firm now! It's up to 450cc on each leg , is that to much ?
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Way too much. The stock level is on the high side to begin with. Also, you really should set the level rather than use a volume measurement.
Quote from: jsyzdek on April 30, 2014, 05:49:55 PM
I'm reading the thread and come to conclusion I need to check my fork, too. With gear and backpack I weigh about 210 lbs. And when I brake hard I totally hit the limits. No fun. Bike's from 2006 and judging how it was mistreated by the previous owner - the fork oil has probably never been replaced, or even checked.
I was considering getting the sonic springs. Do you think I should go for the 0.85 or 0.9?
When I order the springs do I need to order anything else? I heard something about PVC tube that you need to cut to size... Is that right? Or springs come with everything I need?
0.85s for normal commuting/touring, 0.90s if you're riding more aggressively. 15w fork oil. The springs come with the spacer material, washers and instructions.
I'm playing with my band tonight, gotta take the 4 wheels...
I should have a little more time next week. I'll place the order then and get going with this. I ride sort of aggressively, but I'm still learning. My guess is that it will only get more aggressive as the time goes by...
Any fork oil you recommend, apart from being 15W? does going cheap really affect anything? or you just pay premium for the name but there's no significant difference in performance/durability?
Quote from: robfriedenberger on April 30, 2014, 11:55:25 AM
Just added some more to each side, it nice and firm now! It's up to 450cc on each leg , is that to much ?
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Oil level is measured by height from the top of the fork tube with the springs out and the fork fully compressed. Measuring the volume of oil is wildly inaccurate. Getting the fork oil level correct is critical for performance; the air gap is part of your suspension system; it stiffens the forks up as you near bottoming out. Even a couple of MM height change makes a big difference.
With the stock springs, 99 is a good starting point. You can go as high as 90mm.
With after-market springs, 120mm is a good starting point. You may be able to go as high as 100mm, but that's dangerously close to hydrolock.
Quote from: gsJack on May 01, 2014, 10:36:20 AM
(http://www.gs500.net/gallery/data/500/stock_fork_oil_level.jpg)
Thanks for pointing this out. Stock is indeed 10w; I ran 15 weight on my race bike, BUT... That weight is with emulators, which can blow off to let more oil through the forks. Stock forks don't have a blow-off valve, and 15 weight can be dangerously stiff. I had issues on the track with terrible rebound performance when the forks were cold with 15 weight; the tire would easily slide due to overly stiff rebound.
Well I took it all back apart again, removed the spacer spring and washer, the oil level was at 30mm compressed, so I drained it back down to 100mm, my buddy suggested that I pump them slowly for 10 minutes to allow any air pockets to come out, it seams like it's back to normal again, I see a spring upgrade, or fork swap in my near future.
Also cornering was slightly scary with the front end that ridged
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That doesn't surprise me. You were probably down a couple inches of travel. Glad your seals are okay.
OK guys
I've ordered my sonic springs last Saturday. They should arrive soon. My question is: what fork oil do you recommend? I started reading about it and it seems that companies mark their viscosities in a very inconsistent way:
http://transmoto.com.au/comparative-oil-weights-table/
I'm currently losing a little bit of weight, so the 0.85 springs should be perfect.
I'm still learning how to ride harder and my goal is to be able to push this bike to its limits before I even consider an upgrade. So I'm looking for oil that will give me good performance and allow me to cut through the twisties. And when I f#$% up, I'd rather be sure it's me, not the bike :) just to make is easier to pick up my mistakes.
Oil is simple enough to change out later too, and doesn't cost too much... So keep that in mind.
I had replaced my front springs with .85 sonics as well... Originally, I just replaced oil with stock weight of 10, and later swapped oil for 15. The difference wasn't game changing to say the least... though I do prefer the 15 now. It depends on the road conditions you normally ride on. Good roads go with heavier is my suggestion.
I had lost weight over time after replacing my springs as well... Started at 190, then down to 150 all in one riding season. First 30 lbs in 10 weeks riding about everyday. Too soft at 190, but now almost too stiff for relaxed riding... But I also happened to become more aggressive with my riding style as I got more time on the saddle, and pretty much ride this way all the time now. So it worked out really well for me.
- Bboy
what's the brand you use? I don't feel like experimenting, even if it's not too much money. It's just the hassle of disposing of the old oil, and I also don't have that much time to spare...
I had used Bel-Ray, which my local dealer carries for $11 and some change for a (1 Liter?) bottle... and you won't use all of it.
- Bboy
I got the sonic springs in mail today. Immediately I got on the job. Took it for a little test ride and man... WHAT A DIFFERENCE! I was able to slam the front brake and I was far from bottoming up, while before I was bottoming up consistently even at medium braking power (especially if there was a slightest bump).
A few things I'd like to share with people who are thinking about upgrading:
- I weigh about 210lbs with gear and backpack on, hence I ordered 0.85 rated springs
- My GS is from 2006 so it came with a little better springs than the older models (look up reply #2 by Addidasguy (RIP) earlier in this thread) (top is sonic, middle is 2004+ stock, bottom is old stock). The stock ones were 342mm, sonics are 380mm. Stock spacer was 206mm long
- Sonic springs came with PVC tube to cut to size as a spacer (a little over 400mm in length).
- Simple math says that the new spacer should be 168mm to keep the same total length, however in order to keep the same preload you need to cut it shorter. How much shorter?
- Stock springs are rated at around 0.45. The preload is ~1.9". My new springs have about 2x higher spring constant so I figured that shortening the spacer by about 22mm should be fine. Hence I cut spacers to be 146mm.
- It was easier to put the caps on with new springs on because most of the preload (0.7" out of 1" total) is applied throughout screwing the cap in. No excessive force necessary to get the thread started.
- I used old oil (didn't get around to buying a bottle of new one), but will soon order either weight 10 or 15
- I set the oil level at 122mm. Seems to be working fine. The are two reasons for a different than stock oil level: the new spring is beefier so it displaces more oil, also the new spacer is made of fairly thick PVC, as opposed to skinny metal tube, so there is less open space above the spring.
If anybody is wondering whether or not to do this swap - don't think any more. The swap is fast, easy, and the bike handles way better now.
BTW - if anybody wants stock springs (the new type) and spacers - hit me up, I have a pair lying around :) :cool:
I presume it didn't take too long to do it?
How do you compress the front fork to measure the oil level?
Including doing the measurements, math, cutting the spacers to size (and I was really anal about getting them exactly the same and smooth on both ends), and sucking the oil out to perfectly match the new level I calculated, it took me about an hour.
As far as compressing the fork... first you need to put your bike on the centerstand, then jack it up a little by the engine (just enough to lift the front wheel off the ground).
When you take your handlebars off, you can flip one of the metal brackets upside down and rotate it 180deg, so you have a nice little hook sticking out. Put a hook of your ratcheting strap over it, hook up the other end by the front axle and ratchet it up. Caution though:
- first undo your fork caps
- route your strap so that you don't pinch the brake line (or anything else)
Good luck!
Thx!
Alternatively you could follow the procedure presented in the Haynes or Clymer's manual to fully remove the fork tubes so you can get a true vertical measure of fill height.
Check out the wiki for additional details.
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