My recent thread about the knock in my 100k mile 02 engine finally resulted in finding the knock was from the right cylinder after checking every other possibility. First thing I checked was the compression with the finger over the hole, crank, and pop method and pronounced the compression good in both cylinders and went on from there. But how good really was it on a 100k mile air cooled engine?
Having lost the compression gage I had for years I finally went and got a new one today, better a decade or two late than never. :icon_lol:
Results of todays compression check:
#1 cyl #2 cyl
Cold 135 psi 135 psi
Hot 140 psi 140 psi
Oil added
to cylinder 155 psi 160 psi
170 psi 190 psi
200 psi 190 psi
Suzuki Spec:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/GSCompression_zps5b56bd91.jpg)
Surprising how good it still was, with about 140 psi in both cylinders it was at the bottom of standard range but well above the minimum limit of 114 psi. Most surprising was the lack of difference between the two cylinders, they were the same, a 28 psi difference is allowed. Good oil and plenty of it pays off in the long run, 15W-40 Rotella T in this case.
When the oil added to "bad" cyl #2 increased it above #1, I put a little more oil in #1 and checked again and back and forth until they topped out at about 200 and 190 psi. Rings are well worn but it shows the value of using the new wide exhaust valve spec. Valves are surprisingly good at 100k miles.
Expect I'll just run it for the summer for the little I ride now and maybe pull the head in the fall if it doesn't blow before then. :icon_lol:
Ref: http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=66928.0
Damn, put some new faith in my bike for me haha :woohoo:
What is this exhaust valve spec you speak of?
Your compression is actually very good. Adding oil will increase the compression cos you're taking away volume. That oil test is for compression in the 50's and 60's.
My 89 when it had like 45k measured much lower than that.
Also that doesn't explain the knocking either.
Cool.
Buddha.
jboogie13, the tighter of the 2 exhaust valves on my 97 GS running at the minimum Suzuki spec most of the time required constant shim changes and was down to a min 215 shim by 80k miles. When the tighter one on my 02 GS started the same pattern at about 30k miles I increased the exhaust valve clearances to .003-.005" (.08-.13mm) and they stabilized after that requiring little more change than the intakes did. Min shim in the 02 at 100k miles is a 245. Suzuki's tight tolerances did not provide enough cooling seat time for exhaust valves.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/GSvalvelogs_zps9ef7236a.jpg
No the good compression doesn't explain the knock and possibly has nothing to do with it Buddha, but I find it of great interest to myself and probably others seeking long mileage from their GSs. So that oil test is for compression in the 50's and 60's? Well I'm a man of the 30's! Adding oil increases the compression by sealing the worn rings. I've got a new theory on that knock after hearing new sounds. :dunno_black:
What gsJack is talking about is referred to as cylinder wash, the volume is slightly altered but usually only by 10-20cc.
Every modern tech that has needed to do a compression test will use a bit of oil to rule out cylinder integrity issues. From the knock I'm thinking some thing with the connecting rod. I guess the motor is on borrowed time now so if it dose blow it will be ok?
I've see some small blocks blow connecting rods out of the bottom of the sump, knocking isn't some thing to play with.
Quote from: gsJack on April 30, 2014, 06:49:31 PM
No the good compression doesn't explain the knock and possibly has nothing to do with it Buddha, but I find it of great interest to myself and probably others seeking long mileage from their GSs. So that oil test is for compression in the 50's and 60's? Well I'm a man of the 30's! Adding oil increases the compression by sealing the worn rings. I've got a new theory on that knock after hearing new sounds. :dunno_black:
Yea oil will seal it @ the rings. But your cold compression is very very good. Your oil seal isn't the factor in making its compression go up. Its the volume you have taken up with oil. My guess ... obviously there is a bit of blow past the rings without oil, and you have cut that down with oil.
But a motor compression in the 50's due to bad rings will get to over 150 with oil for a few mins.
That is telling you have bad rings. Your rings are fine IMHO.
Toss in a head ... I had a couple I did for some locals ... I still have contacts in that line of work, I can likely get it done cheap, and I'm talking $40-50 for a 3 angle ... only the fabricator died, and the laser shop sold to a mega corp, and the powdercoating guy got his wife and mother in law pricing stuff. So a wheel done in black now costs $150 and will get me an itemized bill accounting for every grain of blasting powder used up etc etc when it used to be $10-20.
Your cyl likely is like new. 1450 is plenty good. My 50k miler made 110 or less in both when cold. Didn't prevent it from running like the dickens though.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: robfriedenberger on May 02, 2014, 03:20:36 AM
............I guess the motor is on borrowed time now so if it dose blow it will be ok?
I've see some small blocks blow connecting rods out of the bottom of the sump, knocking isn't some thing to play with.
That's about where we're at Rob, motor, bike, and rider are on borrowed time. :icon_lol: I was hoping to ride this bike a little longer this summer and maybe next, don't consider it a big loss if I had to carry it to the scrapyard now. I've more than got my money's worth out of it. We're planning on moving further out in the burbs later this summer and don't need a bike laying around in parts in my present garage, timing has been very inconvenient on this problem. I've seen con rods sticking out the side of small blocks, the last was on one of son JP's cars.
Quote from: The Buddha on May 02, 2014, 04:46:41 AM
.....................Your cyl likely is like new. 145 is plenty good. My 50k miler made 110 or less in both when cold. Didn't prevent it from running like the dickens though.
Cool.
Buddha.
That's what's most baffling about this Buddha, everything I've checked under the left, top, and right covers has looked like new on this well maintained 100k mile engine. Can't really disagree with anything you're saying here.
Glad I checked out the compression thoroughly and feel it probably rules out a problem with the pistons and rings. It's not a con rod big end bearing I hear, completely wrong for that. A knocking wrist pin is still a possibility I guess.
I've been hearing a new rattle within the idle to 2-3k rpm range that it knocks sounding like there's a loose marble in there somewhere when I blip it. Way back 80k miles ago when I pulled the head to replace the broken exhaust valve I found about half the tip of the protruding valve guide had broke off and disappeared. I elected to leave it as is and it's been good as new since but I'm wondering if the other half has broken off now and is rattling around in there, could it be making the loud positive knock I hear. Probably reaching too far on that one. :dunno_black:
You could see that valve guide in the exhaust port ? or feel around for it after taking the headers off ?
Cool.
Buddha.
Never used my 97 GS in the winter for the 80k miles I put on it nor did JP for the 30-40k miles he added so the exhaust from it is in much better shape than the rusty patched up one on my 02 that's splashed thru the salt water for the past 10 winters. Got 97 exhaust back when JP parted out the 97 and have it in the garage avoiding taking on that rusty mess on the 02 to change it. Guess it's time to give it a try now so I can have a look in there, valves and guides can be seen thru the open ports. I'll take it easy soaking with liquid wrench and wire brushing to get it cleaned up and go easy with the wrench. If a little impact won't break it loose I have a propane torch I can use on it in my non electric old garage.
Quote from: gsJack on April 22, 2014, 12:41:07 PM.....................I'm hearing a very light almost inaudible knock coming from nearby while sitting on the right and spinning it over. Almost missed it. Covered the #2 plug hole with my finger over a rag and it was gone. Couldn't hear any light knock like that over on the #1 side while spinning it over..............
Quote from: gsJack on April 30, 2014, 04:34:56 PM
My recent thread about the knock in my 100k mile 02 engine finally resulted in finding the knock was from the right cylinder after checking every other possibility......................
Well that was a week or two ago and this is now. :icon_lol: Was searching around last night and found a post with video from member Mach about an engine noise he had that sounded more like my knock/rattle than any I've heard so far and it was at idle both hot and cold going away at higher rpm like mine does. Turned out Mach's noise was from a loose starter clutch, he found 2 of the 3 bolts holding it to the back of the rotor were actually broke off.
Checked my bike again today and could not hear that knock from the right cylinder that I heard before and both cylinders had the same equal 140 psi compression as before. Probed around again with the stethoscope and loudest noise I heard that sounded like my knock/rattle was coming from the left rotor cover. I had checked in there before and the rotor was tight on the crankshaft with all magnets tight in place looking good and starter clutch was functioning OK so I closed it up and went on to check other things.
So I guess I'll go back now and actually pull the rotor from the crank to check if the starter clutch is tight to the rotor. Have only put another 20-30 miles on it riding around easy close to home since I first heard the noise.
I'm pulling for you! I'm hoping there's still more life in the old gal... I've got a vested interest in this as my '07 is pushing 83K... and I want to hang on to her as long as I can!
:cheers:
Gsjack is both our tire guru knowing all things tread, and the high mileage king
Pulled the left cover off again yesterday and could see the starter clutch was loose now. First time I checked in there last month it all looked good. I had only ridden it a few miles home after the knock/rattle started. Rode it around 20-30 miles close to home since then and ran it quite a bit in the garage and it was quite loose now. Had to dig out a 18" breaker bar and go back this morning to pull the 12mm bolt that holds the rotor onto the crank. Then wasted the rest of the day going all over town to find the 14mmx1.5x45mm bolt needed to pull the rotor off, made the 36mm spacer out of another bolt. Hopefully I'll get the rotor off tomorrow and if all parts are good get it back together and on too. Let the thread lock dry for 24 hours and maybe put the cover on and have it running again on Friday ready for another 100k miles. Maybe. :icon_lol:
gsJack, I really hope thats it!
Question.....why didn't you use the swing arm bolt? Just wondering thats all, it worked good for me maybe I got lucky?
Hi GSjack see my post on when my rotor was loose, I suggest using the locktite 660 and sanding the tapers to make sure that you don't have to do the job twice like I did.
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Here is the link- http://www.gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=67052
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Quote from: adidasguy on October 28, 2012, 10:53:10 AM
..................NOTHING ON THE TAPERED SHAFT! Clean and spotless - no grease (though I lightly scored it with some 800 grit going in and out). Use BLUE threadlock on the bolt. Do not use red and do NOT put any on the shaft!.....................
bmf, is the blue threadlock the same as the locktite 660 you refer to? Patrick lightly scored the taper with fine sandpaper same as you did and I recall quite a bit of contention between him and sledge on this issue in another thread, sledge insisted lapping was the way to go. I blocked the rear wheel with a piece of wood across the swingarm and did have some clutch slippage but finally got the rotor bolt loose. Thanks for the link.
Rob, did you sand, lap, or neither? Use any locktite on the taper? I've done my own maintenance and repair work on my bikes for 30 years and 400k miles and never put locktite on anything and never had anything come loose either but I was planning to use it on the rotor bolt and the 3 holding the clutch to the rotor in this case. Thought it would be easier to run over to the hardware and get a bolt yesterday instead of pulling the swingarm bolt but ended up going on to the next hardware and the next, and the next............ :icon_lol:
No impact wrench here and no electricity in the garage either where I keep the bike across the street behind another building, would have made removing the rotor bolt a lot easier. I still have a set of 1/2 drive 6 point Snapon inch size impact sockets though and one fit the rotor bolt nicely when using the breaker bar.
Time to go and try pulling the rotor, it's another hot, humid, rainy day so I'll go get some threadlock and bolts if necessary after I see what's behind the rotor. Tomorrow's forcast is for sunny and high in the 50's so that's soon enough to finish up.
By the way, took a pic inside the rotor yesterday and it looks like all 3 clutch retaining bolts backed out about the same amount and not too far yet. Would probably have been a mess if I had tried using the bike this summer and waiting until fall to fix:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/GS500Rotor038_zps0b253816.jpg)
Loosing a little epoxy from the side of one magnet, no goats allowed here. :icon_lol: Anyway it was all worthwhile pulling the covers on both sides as you can see there was a lot of oil leaking out and collecting on the bottom of the engine, no leaks now since I put them back on.
I did lap my the tapper, and used locktite I don't remember what type though.
When I attempted to find a bolt of that thread pitch around Pittsburgh, you would of thorough that I was looking for be holy grail. The blank stares I got and the suggestions of using an imperial thread was endless.
So far I if got 2 k on my repair and it's seams to be holding good. Next oil change I'll open it up to inspect it but I really doubt I'll see any thing out if the ordinary. My bolts were loose but it seamed that because my starter clutch locked up it prevented things from going south any further.
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Thanks Rob, I'll check on the locktite type when I go get the bolts for the clutch to rotor, they didn't break or bend but got a little extra wear and tear on them while they were loose:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/003_zpsb573f67e.jpg)
Think I'll lap the taper and put a little locktite on it too.
Mine looked liked that, they are still laying around somewhere. My local Ace had replacement bolts, but I ordered all the hardware online.
Jack, I don't know where exactly you're at in Ohio, but I just wanted to let you know I have a GS500 bottom end laying in my garage if you need any parts from it. It's an 89 model (I'm pretty sure anyway.....) and I don't plan on using the bottom end for anything.
Just wanted to get that out there.
Big rich that's not going to last long now it's out there! =)
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Ha! The only things I plan on using from the bottom end is the clutch basket, oil pump assembly, con rods, etc.. While I'm not actively parting out the motor, I'll gladly help out Jack if it gets him back on the road. I actually forgot about the motor until a week or two ago.
So the knock turns out to have been the starter clutch Jack, - (note those stripped bolt threads).
This noise keeps coming up as an issue, and people are saying... balance shaft... big end... mains etc.
Any 'hard to locate by ear' knocking / clattering sound at lower revs... I reckon this should be first on the suspect list.
Quote from: Big Rich on May 15, 2014, 05:34:48 PM
Jack, I don't know where exactly you're at in Ohio, but I just wanted to let you know I have a GS500 bottom end laying in my garage if you need any parts from it. It's an 89 model (I'm pretty sure anyway.....) and I don't plan on using the bottom end for anything.
Just wanted to get that out there.
I live in Willoughby just east of Cleveland but will be moving out to Madison a little further east in a couple months. See you are near Pittsburgh, I lived in Ben Avon and Avalon when I was a little kid but moved to Chicago with family when I was 12. Family comes from Little Washington just south of Pittsburg, my brother still lives there as do many other relatives I haven't seen in decades. Family settled there in 1792 so there must be a lot of relatives around there. :icon_lol:
Thanks for the offer Rich but I don't plan on doing anything that big on the bike with the move coming up soon. Don't need bike torn apart in my old garage at this time. Would have left it as is for now but it's looking like problem was only the loose starter clutch knocking and rattling and it should be up and running again in a couple days. :thumb:
Quote from: Joolstacho on May 15, 2014, 08:52:50 PM
So the knock turns out to have been the starter clutch Jack, - (note those stripped bolt threads).
This noise keeps coming up as an issue, and people are saying... balance shaft... big end... mains etc.
Any 'hard to locate by ear' knocking / clattering sound at lower revs... I reckon this should be first on the suspect list.
Have to agree with that Jools, I checked out the goats thing and the starter drive first early last month. Starter drive looked and felt tight and was functioning properly then just after the noise started.
Quote from: gsJack on April 03, 2014, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: robfriedenberger on April 03, 2014, 12:57:07 PM
Pull the rotor, my starter clutch was making that nose due to being locked up and jumping, I don't think there was any play in the rotor either
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I buttoned the left side back up today Rob and got it running again before I saw your post. I really checked that starter clutch as best I could though. When I first came home with the knock I shut it off and restarted it repeatedly and it fired up so fast I couldn't hear the starter turning and released every time. Then after I had it opened up I grabbed the big gear on the back of the rotor and turned it ccw and it turned the crank and then cw and it turned free and did that repeatedly and it all seemed to be working OK. Hope I didn't miss anything, thanks for the input.
Guess I did miss something. :cry:
First time I read that, I thought it said 1972...... big difference! But yeah, I'm about 45 minutes NW of Pittsburgh, 20 minutes SE of New Castle. If you're ever in the area and want to cruise around, let me know.
If you ever really need a 14x1.5 bolt, a Honda Civic drain plug is that pitch and works perfectly for taking those off. (Ask me how I know. :rolleyes:) Make sure you get one that looks like this:
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/16/u2u7y9y3.jpg)
Can usually be found at any auto parts store; barring that, check with your local Jiffy Lube or equivalent.
That's awesome to know, any idea on what year range ?
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Just about every Honda car uses the same plug. Tell them a 2003 with a 1.6 engine and you'll get the right thing.
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Can you explain what you are talking about with lapping the taper? Also, what is the extra bolt for? I'm just trying to understand this if it ever happens to my bike.
bombsquad83,
Take a look at this video,
The taper is what the rotor is mounted to.
The extra bolt is used as a tool, to pull the rotor from the tapper.
Adidasguy did not lap the tapper, but you would clean the tapper and rotor really good, add a smear of valve grinding compound to the tapper and put the rotor on it and spin it. This will make the rotor seat perfectly to the tapper.
It starts and runs. :thumb:
And doesn't knock anymore!
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
Ready for another 100,000 miles.
That is beyond awesome. I've been watching this closely and routing for you Jack.
Congrats, Jack! :)
I've been watching this thread, too.
I have to say, you are quite the inspiration!
gsjack, that's awesome, it's a very eluding problem!
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Haha, now if only there was an easy way to stop the oil consumption you might get another 100 out of it :icon_mrgreen:
Just run gear oil, should slow It down! =) lol
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Some Penrite 25w-70 would probably help, too :D
Quote from: Badot on May 17, 2014, 08:10:49 PM
Haha, now if only there was an easy way to stop the oil consumption you might get another 100 out of it :icon_mrgreen:
I was suggesting my bike might be good for another 100k not the rider. :icon_lol: As far as GS oil consumption goes though I've said many times:
Quote from: gsJack on September 09, 2013, 10:22:23 AM......................................As with all GSs oil consumption goes up with high mileage. Best as I can remember it began using a bit of oil after 1.5 k miles after change and was down to add mark at next change up to about 30k on the clock. By 50k miles it needed a pint or 2 between changes. Somewhere between 50 and 100k miles it self converts from a 500cc engine into a 500cc oil pump but continues to tick right along if you keep oil in it.
Convert it to run on used cooking oil :D
hey jack, stick a DC motor in the frame with some LIPO batterys and enjoy it as an Electric Vehicle. call it the suzuki G-Shock :bowdown: :bowdown:
Kinda like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HVS5foMyBM
That might be the worst investment ever lol, 48mph and 200lbs heaver, maybe should of put a gear box in there.
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Um, dig alittle deeper, that was an example. lipo bat pack and right motor could be fun.
not like im saying build this ----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwHCnIJ0-Zw
Quote from: gsJack on May 17, 2014, 11:32:29 AM
It starts and runs. :thumb:
And doesn't knock anymore!
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
Ready for another 100,000 miles.
Awesome, another goats the buddha version averted.
I stared it with the thing clanging for almost a year before it "goated".
Cool.
Buddha.
My 95 GS with 73K had similar symptoms below 3k rpm, but has stopped.
I finally broke down and opened the left cover to fix a charging issue. Phew...no goats and the starter clutch is stable...doesn't wiggle. The generator coils were burnt...replaced it for the 2nd time.
Maybe noise is loose pistons. According to some prior pics in this thread, the starter clutch bots have backed out a little, but it looks the same as when I took a pic around 40K and I can't wiggle it by hand...feels tight.
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well...the noise was the failing cam-chain :icon_sad:
Dang...almost made it to 100k