I just got an '09 GS500F with about 9k miles on it and I'm having some issues with it idling low and dying on me when I am coming to a stop. This was even happening maybe 30-45 minutes into a ride. With the choke fully off I was idling at or under 1000, and if I dropped it from 5k to idle when coming to a stop the RPMs would dip too low and it died.
I've read the starting section in the manual for the '08 model, and it says to start it with the choke on with no throttle and keep opening it to keep the RPMs just above idle speed until the choke is fully open. I followed this procedure, but I found that to keep it from dying I had to manually keep the throttle going when coming to a stop. After maybe an hour I noticed that it was idling around 1200 and I could stop giving it throttle without it dying. I read that the GS takes a long time to warm up, but this seems excessively excessive to me. I guess a good question to ask would be what is normal for a GS500 warming up?
I did notice that the previous owner was riding with a good amount of choke on, so I've come up with the idea that maybe he gummed things up and now it just takes longer to warm up because of that. I know that I've seen a few others using throttle with choke and riding with significant choke on, so it isn't too unlikely that he did the same on a regular basis since he didn't have a manual to tell him differently. If this is the case could I expect the problem to dissipate as I use the bike more, or am I going to have to replace the sparkplugs and clean the carbs or anything else more involved?
In the spirit of full disclosure, I have yet to look at the plugs (riding the bike >> working on the bike). I'm also not sure I have all the necessary tools to check clearances and spark gaps and other things (I'm more of an electrical guy). Even if I did I can't find any manuals (owners or service) that cover the '09 model year.
Thanks in advance for any help.
EDIT: It was tight exhaust valves that caused my troubles - see last post.
For the most part 04+ is the same, with the exception of the full PAIR system on the carbs in 05, a headlight wiring difference also in 05, and cam shims in 06+, maybe a few other smaller less notables I can't think of or haven't come across. Generally the manuals out there cover upto 08, and nothing has changed since 08, other than color scheme.
I'd agree with you based on your description that the carbs are probably in need of a cleaning - pilot jets specifically. I'd also go one further, and say you also need to do a valve clearance check... I'd bet the PO had to use so much choke to run her because the exhaust valves are tight, which made it harder to start... many folks will try to use throttle to start a bike that's hard to start, and that only makes the issue get worse... and all of that aftermath sounds exactly like what you are experiencing.
I'd also go ahead and replace spark plugs - bikes love new spark plugs no matter there's a problem or not.
Please do not get the idea that turning up the idle will solve this issue - it 'may' bandaid the problem, but things will only get worse. So far the PO doesn't sound like they knew too much about maintaining a bike, so I highly doubt they ever touched the idle knob. Your symptoms are not in line with an idle set too low anyway.
:cheers:
- Bboy
Quote from: BockinBboy on May 28, 2014, 06:59:35 AM
For the most part 04+ is the same, with the exception of the full PAIR system on the carbs in 05, a headlight wiring difference also in 05, and cam shims in 06+, maybe a few other smaller less notables I can't think of or haven't come across. Generally the manuals out there cover upto 08, and nothing has changed since 08, other than color scheme.
I'd agree with you based on your description that the carbs are probably in need of a cleaning - pilot jets specifically. I'd also go one further, and say you also need to do a valve clearance check... I'd bet the PO had to use so much choke to run her because the exhaust valves are tight, which made it harder to start... many folks will try to use throttle to start a bike that's hard to start, and that only makes the issue get worse... and all of that aftermath sounds exactly like what you are experiencing.
I'd also go ahead and replace spark plugs - bikes love new spark plugs no matter there's a problem or not.
Please do not get the idea that turning up the idle will solve this issue - it 'may' bandaid the problem, but things will only get worse. So far the PO doesn't sound like they knew too much about maintaining a bike, so I highly doubt they ever touched the idle knob. Your symptoms are not in line with an idle set too low anyway.
:cheers:
- Bboy
Cool, I'll have to grab an '08 service manual then. I think I can handle putting new spark plugs in with my current knowledge level, but I have no idea how to clean the carbs or do a valve clearance check. Are there any specific tools I will need to do this? Are there any instructions on how to do these on the later models? I did find a carb cleaning/rebuilding tutorial but it was for an older model and I wasn't sure if it is applicable to my bike.
Is the Clymer or Haynes manual better for a newb like myself (or which one has more accurate info for the '09)?
I'll definitely not mess with the idle knob, as I had suspicions that that wouldn't work since it was idling properly toward the end of that ride. I think I'll start with the plugs and valves and see where that puts me.
I appreciate your help, BockinBboy.
Really, you can't go wrong with either manual. I ended up choosing the Haynes for myself mostly because it has color wiring diagrams.
The carb cleaning will be very similar - main difference on 04+ models is that they have three jets instead of two. Pilot (idle), mid main, and main. The PAIR system was also added on the later models, so the extra hoses make it look daunting. Both manuals also have a section on carb cleaning I believe. So I would think the video you found paired with the manual section on 04+ carbs, should be pretty encompassing on doing the job.
Outside of your basic set of tools, like sockets and wrenches... To do a valve check you would need: Calipers, feeler gauges, Suzuki shim tool, and any shims you have to replace. There are a few vids by BaltimoreGS on this (he also has a carb cleaning one I believe), which are very helpful. Some folks use a screwdriver instead of the shim tool, but I personally much prefer the shim tool.
- Bboy
Turning up the idle speed would be the first thing I'd do. I'm not one to be tearing into carbs until I'm sure it's necessary. I've done all my 180k GS500 miles on a 97 and a 02 with untouched stock carbs.
Don't wait too long to do the valve clearance check but if you have cold compression the valves are not causing your present problem. If a quick finger over the hole compression check while changing the plugs shows compression you're OK for now.
Riding year around here in NE Ohio in temps sometime below freezing I start out on choke but am off it within a few blocks on my 02 GS which has the same 3 circuit carbs as your GSF has, unless I forget it. :icon_lol:
Quote from: gsJack on May 28, 2014, 08:18:30 AM
Turning up the idle speed would be the first thing I'd do. I'm not one to be tearing into carbs until I'm sure it's necessary
That is a good point. Another angle to look at it, for sure. Keep in mind though, that a track record like that on carbs is due to the usage - 9k miles in 5 years, its seen some sitting around.. and given what we do know about the PO thus far, its not likely it was well prepared for sitting around. If they never sit, you won't have build up that causes these problems. As always though, respect to gsJack - lotta of experience and miles weight his words.
- Bboy
Thanks for all of the input, guys. I'm going to order a Haynes manual for it, but I think I'll give her a few more rides to see if things settle down when the choke is used properly. If the weekend comes and she still idles low I'll look into carb cleaning or adjusting the idle setting. I'll probably replace the spark plugs this weekend in any case. Not sure if I'll be able to find the tools to do the valve check by the weekend, but if I can I will.
Would this work for the shim tool? http://www.amazon.com/POSSE-VALVE-Suzuki-Yamaha-MOTORCYCLE/dp/B004N0CEDO (http://www.amazon.com/POSSE-VALVE-Suzuki-Yamaha-MOTORCYCLE/dp/B004N0CEDO)
Is there a universal valve shim kit that would work? I'm not sure where to look for these...
Also, should I expect places like AutoZone/etc to have the spark plugs I need, or do I have to go online for them?
Thanks again for all your help, guys.
Quote from: DoktoroKiu on May 28, 2014, 06:37:16 AM
With the choke fully off I was idling at or under 1000, and if I dropped it from 5k to idle when coming to a stop the RPMs would dip too low and it died.
I'm with Jack. I think the stock idle is set to 1200 IIRC. It's easy enough to turn it up, just give that knob a twist and see how it is after that.
One step at a time.
If the PO hasn't checked valve clearances, I'd highly suggest it. I had similar issues and it turned out that my exhaust valves were way tight.
Edit: do a search here or on youtube for checking valve clearances on a GS500.
The first time I did it took me 4 hours. Now it takes 40 minutes tops.
I took her to work this morning and had similar issues with a low idle. When I started her up it only took a minute to get to where I could have the choke off, but she ran slow. I can prevent her from dying every time by slowly rolling off the throttle, so it isn't too bad a problem for now. I might try adjusting the idle before heading to the gym tonight and see if that cures the problem, and if it isn't totally gone I'll turn it back down since it will probably be valves at that point from what you guys are saying.
Quote from: itstartswithken on May 28, 2014, 06:54:47 PM
If the PO hasn't checked valve clearances, I'd highly suggest it. I had similar issues and it turned out that my exhaust valves were way tight.
Edit: do a search here or on youtube for checking valve clearances on a GS500.
The first time I did it took me 4 hours. Now it takes 40 minutes tops.
I highly doubt the PO checked them, so I'll definitely try to check them this weekend sometime regardless of whether or not adjusting the idle works. The PO had only had the bike for a few months this year (dumped the tax return on it and then some unfortunate circumstances led to him needing the money for more important things), and it looks like he got it at a shop from what I could see from the title. I'm not sure if dealerships usually do a full tuneup on used bikes or not...
I actually felt for the guy, because he really didn't want to give her up. :cry:
I've been riding GS500s for 15 years and find it's generally necessary to adjust the idle speed spring and fall to have it where I like it which is about 11-1200 rpm. On my 97 and 02 naked GSs I just reach down under the carbs and adjust it while sitting on the bike when I come to a stop, might be a bit harder to reach on a GSF model but it's still no big deal.
Quote from: gsJack on May 29, 2014, 06:37:12 AM
I've been riding GS500s for 15 years and find it's generally necessary to adjust the idle speed spring and fall to have it where I like it which is about 11-1200 rpm. On my 97 and 02 naked GSs I just reach down under the carbs and adjust it while sitting on the bike when I come to a stop, might be a bit harder to reach on a GSF model but it's still no big deal.
Thanks, that's good to know.
I just thought of a new question to ask those experienced in GS500 use. So the manual says to start it with no throttle and full choke, keep it within 3000-4000 RPMs for about 30 seconds (adjusting choke to keep it there), and then turn the choke off.
How many of you use this procedure? What do you typically experience during start up?
Also, when I am letting off the choke it goes from 3-4k to suddenly dropping real low when I get the choke maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the way open. This happens with a VERY small change in the choke position. Should this be smoother?
Thanks again for the help.
PS
I finally got around to adjusting my idle today, so hopefully next ride I get better results. I was hesitant to change it because sometimes it does idle higher, but now I'm just ready to try anything until my manual and parts get here to do the valve check and spark plug swap.
Maybe I got the odd ball bike but right now I'm on a stock. 04 naked, but I have my idle set for 1,200 rpm and it hasn't changed from 20 degree weather to 80. I have not needed to adjust it what so ever. I only really need I choke when it's below 60ish
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I have same experience as rob with idle, and I've ridden in 100+ down to low 30s and never adjusted the idle... I imagine location plays a role here too, but I am in central Illinois... bike is stored in my garage, so day to day starting is relatively constant despite larger changes outside...
Once engine is warm, its always idled right about 1200 rpm. Though I need choke to start most anytime unless the engine is already been warmed up... time that its on choke depends on temperature for sure though... two minutes in the very cold, maybe 10 seconds in the very hot... and yeah never use throttle when starting it up.
With the choke, I do as the manual suggests, and adjust the choke lever to keep it around 3-3.5k rpm as it warms up. The adjustment of the choke lever is very minute, as a little adjustment down will drop the rpms way off if you aren't careful... just takes some practices finding those positions and minor adjustments that work. You can actually see what the lever is adjust at the carbs if you follow the cable... have a look and see how much it moves with the lever action you are using... you can adjust this, but you don't want that to stay engaged in the choke OFF position, so you have to be mindful of these things if you do.
- Bboy
Quote from: BockinBboy on June 03, 2014, 11:35:13 AM
I have same experience as rob with idle, and I've ridden in 100+ down to low 30s and never adjusted the idle... I imagine location plays a role here too, but I am in central Illinois... bike is stored in my garage, so day to day starting is relatively constant despite larger changes outside...
Once engine is warm, its always idled right about 1200 rpm. Though I need choke to start most anytime unless the engine is already been warmed up... time that its on choke depends on temperature for sure though... two minutes in the very cold, maybe 10 seconds in the very hot... and yeah never use throttle when starting it up.
With the choke, I do as the manual suggests, and adjust the choke lever to keep it around 3-3.5k rpm as it warms up. The adjustment of the choke lever is very minute, as a little adjustment down will drop the rpms way off if you aren't careful... just takes some practices finding those positions and minor adjustments that work. You can actually see what the lever is adjust at the carbs if you follow the cable... have a look and see how much it moves with the lever action you are using... you can adjust this, but you don't want that to stay engaged in the choke OFF position, so you have to be mindful of these things if you do.
- Bboy
That's nice to know. I was worried about the sudden drop off in revs with such a small move in the lever. How do you usually tell it has warmed up?
Thanks
Okay, back to report my results from the idle adjustment. I'm beginning to think more and more that the problem is not in the setting, because I can go from 5-6k RPM to idle and it will die when I am in the process of stopping at a light, but I'll Idle around 1300-1400 when I am stopped. It still takes a large amount of time to warm up (20 minutes in 70 degree weather give or take). Sometimes it idles at or below 1000 when I'm stopped, sometimes it idles at the proper 1300 that I set it at.
I've also noticed it seems more "grumbly"? Like lower in the RPM range it sounds deeper to me. I know that the idle jet is generally responsible for 0-25% throttle, so my best guess is that this is a result of a richer fuel-air mixture (or it's all in my crazy head). I did also add about six ounces of Seafoam to the 5.3 gal tank, so that might also be the rumbliness. Yet another factor is that I fueled up with 92 octane, and if the PO used 87 then the switch could be the cause.
Is it even a remote possibility that too much idle adjustment could cause low idling? Or maybe I need to adjust it even higher?
I should be getting the stuff needed to check my clearances by this weekend, so I'm kind of hoping that it is tight exhaust valves. I'll probably mess more with the idle setting until then to see what more/less does for me.
It comes with experience to know what it sounds like and feels like and not have to think about it... so in an effort to break that down and explain to someone over the web (lol)... you'll notice as you lower the choke little by little to keep it at about 3-3.5k, there will be a point where you can't keep it in that range. Take choke all the way off and idle should sound steady at 1200 rpm. If your idle is steady you should be able to blip the throttle and revs should rise and fall smoothly. At that point you can ride away without any trouble. If it does all that steady and smooth and idle isn't at 1200 rpm, you need to adjust idle... But you don't want to adjust idle until you've ran it for about 10 mins (some say even longer)...
If you take choke off too early to check how it idles and it isn't steady, you'll just need to put choke back on... Keep in mind that this assumes all else is well other than needing warmed up. If it takes more than 2-3 mins tops to idle steady with choke off and revs rise and fall smoothly, you have another issue other than it being cold blooded.
- Bboy
Quote from: BockinBboy on June 04, 2014, 10:00:36 PM
It comes with experience to know what it sounds like and feels like and not have to think about it... so in an effort to break that down and explain to someone over the web (lol)... you'll notice as you lower the choke little by little to keep it at about 3-3.5k, there will be a point where you can't keep it in that range. Take choke all the way off and idle should sound steady at 1200 rpm. If your idle is steady you should be able to blip the throttle and revs should rise and fall smoothly. At that point you can ride away without any trouble. If it does all that steady and smooth and idle isn't at 1200 rpm, you need to adjust idle... But you don't want to adjust idle until you've ran it for about 10 mins (some say even longer)...
If you take choke off too early to check how it idles and it isn't steady, you'll just need to put choke back on... Keep in mind that this assumes all else is well other than needing warmed up. If it takes for than 2-3 mins tops to idle steady with choke off and revs rise and fall smoothly, you have another issue other than it being cold blooded.
- Bboy
OK, that sounds about like what I usually do, only I end up just taking the choke off after about 30 seconds to 1 minute. So you say to leave choke on, decreasing to keep it within 3-3.5k until it isn't possible and then shutting it off completely? I'll see what strictly adhering to this does for me.
I presently usually end up leaving a small amount of choke going to keep it at 1200-1300 (but it still runs without choke). The times I've left without choke took maybe 1-2 minutes of warming up, but then it still died when coming to a stop from 5-6k revs without me babying the throttle down to idle speed. The best way I can explain it is that it smoothly drops in RPMs until it dips below 1000 and dies. I generally turn choke completely off after maybe 1 minute of riding, and as long as I keep the revs from dipping too fast she keeps running. Sounds like it is not very likely that it's an idle adjustment issue :(
I was able to take her to work again today, so I may end up experimenting with idle again after a longer ride home to make sure I even did anything (barely even touched the knob before).
I also got my haynes manual and feeler gauges yesterday, so I should be able to check the clearances this weekend.
EDIT:
I have done some reading on the finer aspects of valve trains and I think I understand now how the tight valves could be the cause of my problems. As I understand, the valve stems are elongated due to the stresses of operation, and this reduces the clearance from the cams. When they are too tight the valves actually stay partially open, which causes a loss of compression that is more significant at lower RPMs and can result in the engine dying (I originally thought tight == not opening up enough).
Any ideas on whether I should keep my choke on a bit now to avoid running lean? If I do have tight valves then they are already being overheated due to lack of contact with the valve seats, so running lean would make it even worse by producing hotter exhaust.
It was the valves!!
All of them were too tight to measure, but the left exhaust valve was (according to my math) practically touching with no clearance. I backed out the exhausts to about a 0.10mm clearance, with the intakes at around .04-.06mm. I also ended up breaking down the carbs and cleaning the jets, but mine were very clean with only a tiny amount of carbon on the outside of the pilot jets.
I finished installing the new shims Saturday, and I buttoned her up (minus the fairing) yesterday. Put her on prime for a couple minutes and then she fired right up. At first I was worried when I saw some smoke coming off of the engine, but it was just some oil and RTV that I got on the engine that was burning off.
From the dead-cold start it took maybe 10-20 seconds of choke before I had her idling with the choke off. No more dying when I'm coming to a stop, and the idle adjustment actually does something now. Went on three rides, one about 45 minutes long or so, and she performed quite well. After the 2nd ride I had the idle adjustment right on.
I don't know if it's my imagination, but she seems to sound a lot less "congested"; she sounds completely different at idle. I also feel a bit more low-end power. It's nice to not have to baby the throttle while trying to brake.
I also think there was too much slack in the throttle cable before, because I had to tighten the nuts quite a bit before the slack was where it should be. I ended up over-revving during a few shifts because I'm just not used to it being so tight.
All in all it took just over a week to do the valve change, but half the battle was getting parts. I waited almost a full week from ordering the shims to when I got them (USPS 1-3 day shipping, and from Indy so only 3 hours away...). Apparently the guy had to order them himself, but I had to call in to find out. Luckily I had the PITA problem with getting the damned float bowl screws off the carbs to take up most of my waiting time. That and it was nothing but thunderstorms most of last week.
Next I'll treat her to some nice full-synthetic and a good chain cleaning, followed by dressing her back up with some RGB LED equipped fairings. I figure I'll leave the exhaust 'til winter before sanding and painting it. I've also heard good things about beadblasting and ceramic coating.
Fairly new here and I was having the same problem idle and taking off from a dead stop. Just picked up this bike for my daughter.
This seems to be a common problem from the posts here. Already I feel this is mostly a valve adjust issue. Found my exhausts had no clearances. Intakes OK. Seeing as this bike needs checking every 4K, I think this is a neglected item for most.
I also see the spec's called out for the clearances are too small although I see them posted differently. If the manual says .03-.08mm, this is just too small on a air cooled bike. I've also seen it posted as .003-.005" which seems to be better clearances.
.03-.08mm is actually .001 to .003". I'm going to set mine at .003-.005" which is .08-.13mm.
I've gone through the rest of the bike and all seems good and I'm sure this will correct the running issue.
Will post later to confirm after I get my shim tool and new shims.
Quote from: ace50 on June 23, 2014, 08:25:42 AM
Fairly new here and I was having the same problem idle and taking off from a dead stop. Just picked up this bike for my daughter.
This seems to be a common problem from the posts here. Already I feel this is mostly a valve adjust issue. Found my exhausts had no clearances. Intakes OK. Seeing as this bike needs checking every 4K, I think this is a neglected item for most.
I also see the spec's called out for the clearances are too small although I see them posted differently. If the manual says .03-.08mm, this is just too small on a air cooled bike. I've also seen it posted as .003-.005" which seems to be better clearances.
.03-.08mm is actually .001 to .003". I'm going to set mine at .003-.005" which is .08-.13mm.
I've gone through the rest of the bike and all seems good and I'm sure this will correct the running issue.
Will post later to confirm after I get my shim tool and new shims.
Sounds like it should fix your issue as well. My bike has just over 10k miles, and the shims I removed were factory stock (272s on intakes and 278s on exhaust), less than .0015" for all clearances. It definitely seems to be a neglected item, and I can see why (a bit more effort than changing the oil). Hopefully running the wider clearances will help them stabilize, and according to GSJack and others that has been the case.
I got 270 and 265 shims to get mine in order, and I got the shim tool off amazon. FYI, I can't imagine trying it without the tool, or with a makeshift tool.
Edit:
I really wonder how many people spend a bunch of time working on their carbs for idling issues when it's truly caused by tight valves? My carbs were almost pristine. Even an ME friend of mine who does a lot of work on his own cars was surprised to learn that shims need checked/replaced so frequently on motorcycles. Everyone I told about replacing my valve shims seemed to take that it was a serious overhaul or that I'd bought a lemon or something.
ace50, the Suzuki .001-.003" valve tolerance is OK for intakes but not enough for exhausts which run too hot at the Suzuki .001" minimum spec. The tighter exhaust on my 97 required constant shim changes and was down to a minimum thickness 215 shim at 80k miles with no place to go.
When the tighter exhaust valve on my 02 started the same pattern at about 30k miles I started setting exhausts at .003-.005" and after a couple adjustments it settled down and went another 40k miles without a shim change.
I've never checked valves at 4k intervals, started out checking them twice a year on my 97 which was about 8k mile intervals. On my 02 riding less miles now I've checked them once a year at about 10k intervals and declining. Doubt they even need checking again now and at over 100k miles I've made my last valve check I hope. Here's the whole record:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/GSvalvelogs_zps9ef7236a.jpg
Quote from: DoktoroKiu on June 23, 2014, 09:13:13 AM
Edit:
I really wonder how many people spend a bunch of time working on their carbs for idling issues when it's truly caused by tight valves? My carbs were almost pristine. Even an ME friend of mine who does a lot of work on his own cars was surprised to learn that shims need checked/replaced so frequently on motorcycles. Everyone I told about replacing my valve shims seemed to take that it was a serious overhaul or that I'd bought a lemon or something.
Good post! :cheers:
Quote from: gsJack on June 23, 2014, 09:50:11 AM
I've never checked valves at 4k intervals, started out checking them twice a year on my 97 which was about 8k mile intervals. On my 02 riding less miles now I've checked them once a year at about 10k intervals and declining. Doubt they even need checking again now and at over 100k miles I've made my last valve check I hope. Here's the whole record:
A bike with higher mileage will take less shim adjustment cause the valves have seated more and now have a larger contact surface.
That's not really a good thing as it affects air flow. But unless you want to rebuild it, that's what you got, and back to checking it more often.
I got this bike for my daughter and she'll never ride as much as I do, but I'll never have an air cooled bike myself. That includes Hardlys. :D
Huh? I give up!
Quote from: ace50 on June 23, 2014, 08:25:42 AM
Fairly new here and I was having the same problem idle and taking off from a dead stop. Just picked up this bike for my daughter.
This seems to be a common problem from the posts here. Already I feel this is mostly a valve adjust issue. Found my exhausts had no clearances. Intakes OK. Seeing as this bike needs checking every 4K, I think this is a neglected item for most.
I also see the spec's called out for the clearances are too small although I see them posted differently. If the manual says .03-.08mm, this is just too small on a air cooled bike. I've also seen it posted as .003-.005" which seems to be better clearances.
.03-.08mm is actually .001 to .003". I'm going to set mine at .003-.005" which is .08-.13mm.
I've gone through the rest of the bike and all seems good and I'm sure this will correct the running issue.
Will post later to confirm after I get my shim tool and new shims.
Yep, proper exhaust valve clearances fixed the hanging rpms when blipping the throttle. Returns to idle like it should.
Lost a day of work cause I grabbed a can of old gas to start it back up and ran like sh_t! Took a little while find out what I did.
Installed a Hiflow filter too and now I'm lean off idle. Just need bigger pilot jets - to start with.
Good to hear this fixed your problems as well. I won't hesitate to recommend checking valve clearances to anyone with any type of low/high idling problems.
I'm actually going to have to tear into mine again because the valve cover gasket is leaking a bit of oil now. I had one small tear on the outer edge of the gasket I figured I could get away with patching with RTV, but nope. Replacement gaskets on the way for the cover and breather gaskets, as well as all those little O-ring gaskets for the valve cover bolts.
Might also grab a small beam-style torque wrench to help get the bolts tightened this time, because last time I had to re-torque them after a few rides because they loosened up (paranoid about over-tightening I suppose).