So the bike has been making a strange noise which i have been trying to record, someone described it as tiny when it was cold, which is the first video the second is when its warm. Any ideas?
http://youtu.be/kI4_kxAosaQ
http://youtu.be/5wtsHJ1dCcw
I don't know what it is, but Pokey does it, too.
Tappets?
Kind of a guess but I think it sounds like a bent valve or piston when's the last time you checked your valve clearance?
That second vid warm sounds like normal GS running noises except for the light valve tappet noise in the background. If those are exhaust valve noises that's good, they need more clearance for long life.
The knock in the first vid cold sounds like piston slap confirmed by it being gone when warm. Is that a high mileage engine? It still sounds better warm than my 100k mile 02 does. :cry: Gotta get some 20-50 back in mine for this warm weather.
A compression check will indicate if it's a bent valve mentioned above.
Just my opinions, my ears are getting old.
The bike has 55k km's on it. I checked the valve clearances the other day because of this noise. They were LI: 0.4 RI: 0.5 LE: 0.6 RE: 0.7
Any thoughts?
Went to mechanic yesterday and he said it's the cam chain so I need to replace the cam chain tensioner. So next question would you guys use a manual or auto tensioner?
Sounds like mine, but hope it's not as bad. The rear cam-chain guide broke in half.
Was that an expensive repair?
does it sound like it is coming from left side of motor near crank???? magnito coming loose starter gear on crank? does the sound exist from idle to about 2400 rpm? youtube starter clutch and or starter clutch loose bolts........ been down this road not fun
according to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxS5yZ44AHU
if the bolts were lose it would not start and would make a whiring noise
Quote from: Jimbob on July 09, 2014, 11:27:11 PM
Was that an expensive repair?
well, I was told it would require splitting the case, so decided not to fix. The cam-chain rattled at low revs because of decreased tension due to no guide to push against the chain. The tensioner was rubbing on the chain instead.
before it got to the point of would not start and whiring noise bike would start a bunch of times .....was stranded at work bump started to get haome then and to ride to mechcanic 3 bolts that hold starter gear on magnito one was loose other two were broken had to replace starter gear, bolts gaskets apox $250 in parts and the same in labour these prices are canadain i'm sure if your in the U.S. it would be about half seems to be the way it goes up here
Hmmm cause it's starts fine everytime.
I think I'll buy the cam chain tensioner and take it to the mechanic do you guys use a manual or just the auto tensioner?
So took it to 2 mechanic today because the knocking sound I noticed is loud if you accelerating so if you stopped starting to let go of the clutch doing about 2500 rpm's you can hear it loud.
1 mechanic said he has never heard of a GS500 making the noise and would need to pull it apart and the other said they would need to pull it apart as well.
So the problem I have now... Is it worth doing? If it's going to costs a thousand or more it might be cheaper to put a new engine in.
What do you guys thing?
Would it help if I made a video of it doing the sound when doing what I said above?
I see you posted your bike has about 55k km's (only about 35k miles) on it after I posted above, I wouldn't have thought it a piston knock with such low mileage. A piston knock which would usually go away as the engine warmed sounds much like the starter clutch knock Blairbee had and that I also had this spring. The more I listen to the knock in your first video in your first post the more it sounds like the starter clutch knock but it doesn't knock like that in the second video.
The loose starter clutch knocks hot or cold at idle up to 2-3k rpm, some say 4k. If your gettng that knock both hot and cold I wouldn't be considering a big costly engine tear down or replacement without first pulling the lower left engine cover where the generator rotor is and checking for a loose starter clutch which is bolted to the backside of the rotor. It cost me about $20 to fix mine not counting the free labor I supplied or the 3 oil changes I made while removing the left then right and then left again lower covers while checking it out.
Ok thanks I'll see if I can record the sound while the bike is warm on Tuesday
So when I pop the left side cover off what stuff should I check?
Ahhh the starter clutch...it's the new goats!
Anything other than starter clutch while I'm in there?
The 2002 GS I bought a week ago has a thud sound below 2-3k :(
There is a thud, then the rpm briefly drops less than 100rpm. Seems sporadic.
Does this sound like cam knock or starter clutch bolts?
Can't believe this!! Now this bike is probably out of commission along with my 95, which this was supposed to replace.
HPP, your issue seems like lean misfire. I had it on my '04 when everything was stock.
Here is the link to the first thread I originally saw it come up on here, but there have been a couple since. So check that out.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=66633.msg801720#msg801720
:cheers:
- Bboy
Here is a new video so you can hear it a bit better
http://youtu.be/96Ajlpk36jg
So after checking the starter clutch what would be the next thing to check?
The cam chain tensioner is not a hard replacement. You should be able to do it your self with some hand tools. Mine makes a similar noise..I know its my exhaust valves and the cam chain could use a new tensioner. I am not trained in any way to work on motorcycles but after years of owning them and not wanting to pay anyone else to work on them a good ol clymer manual is your best friend..and this wonderful forum.
Ok yeah I might do that too. It makes a really loud rattle as I accelerate that is only there for a second or 2 as I'm accelerating and the letting the clutch out then it goes.
I went to find out what I'll get as a trade in today and they will only give me $1000
Yeah gs's are not worth to much. As much as we may love our bikes..or in some cases hate them they are not worth anything. Hell mine has only 7k on it and my tax on registering it was 22 dollars.
Yeah I plan to take a week off work to pull it apart. Once I have checked the starter clutch that should I check? I guess I'm after a list to go down as I check things off
Any thoughts?
I've booked some time off work to fix this up. So what else should I check after checking the starter clutch?
Just an update. I checks the valve clearances the left intake was out of spec (tight) so I replaced that shim and now it's in spec. I pulled the left cover off and the main bolt turns with the starter so that looks fine (used Adidas video which showed his bolt did not turn with the fly wheel) what would you check from here?
Here is another Video of when cold but it makes a much louder noise when letting the clutch out after a gear change as that is when the revs are low but the engine is under load
http://youtu.be/E5l9jvLhz5w
Your newest video won't play but looking back to one you posted in late July it sounds more like the loose starter clutch knock. The Adidas video you referred to was a bike with a loose rotor/starter clutch assembly and he was also showing how to pull the assembly off the tapered end of the crankshaft. That is a different problem from the loose starter clutch knock I had and that we are talking about here. The starter clutch knock is heard when the 3 bolts holding the clutch to the back of the rotor come loose and the one large bolt into the end of the crankshaft holding the assembly on can still be very tight as mine was.
When I first pulled the left side cover to check for the starter clutch knock the center bolt and the 3 bolts holding the clutch all seemed to be tight and clutch seemed to function properly so I buttoned it back up and went on to check under the top cover and the right side cover for various possibilities before returning to lhe left side to check again. With more running time on it the starter clutch was then obviouslt loose when I twisted and turned it some and the center bolt holding the rotor assembly on was still tight.
Are you sure your starter clutch was tight to the backside of the rotor? It could be necessary to pull the rotor to varify it.
It seemed tight but you can't really feel the bolts while it's in place all
3 bolts had the same amount if thread visibly screwed in though so unless all
3 loosened to the same point which I guess is possible.
Would the starter clutch also cause a much louder knocking when letting the clutch out after shifting up a gear?
Is it possible to remove the side cover without draining the oil? Shouldn't 99% of the oil be in the sump?
Hopefully working link
http://youtu.be/TaWbgtbska8
I am new and no idea of the noise but the link comes up with a message saying it is private.
Should work now
Here's a pic of mine after I removed the left cover the 2nd time. Looks like all 3 bolts backed off about the same amount. I could rotate the clutch back and forth the amount of the clearance of the bolts in the holes and wiggle it a bit too:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/GS500Rotor038_zps0b253816.jpg)
I found and others agreed that the starter clutch knock was always heard at idle whether engine was hot or cold and it quit knocking when speeded up to 2-3k rpm, some say 4k. I could ride about without hearing it at all as long as I kept the revs above 3k rpm and it would come back every time as I slowed below that coming to another stop. Whether you heard it more or less during shifts would depend on your shifting technique I guess.
I drained the oil completely when I pulled the left and then the right side covers and refilled with fresh oil, I had 2 gallons on hand. But when I drained the left the 2nd time I saved the fresh oil and put it back in. No idea how much would be lost if the cover was pulled without draining first.
Your new vid plays now, sounds like my knocking starter clutch did.
So when I was working on yesterday that magnet assembly could move towards or away from me but the big sprocket had some movement towards and away from me should that move?
On another note, what is the easiest way to save the oil? I have a oil drain pan but it was had old car oil in it and didn't to to contaminate the oil I put back in the bike and there is not enough clearance to get a bottle and funnel under it
Ps the oil drain pan is a sealed type so can't be cleaned
Pps maybe I'll stop being a cheap skate and go buy another one
Oh and also where would be a good place in aus to get the bolt and spacer required to separate them?
Quote from: Jimbob on September 03, 2014, 02:34:17 PM
So when I was working on yesterday that magnet assembly could move towards or away from me but the big sprocket had some movement towards and away from me should that move?
Mine was the same way and it's probably as it should be. The hub of that big gear behind the rotor is the inner member of the starter clutch. After the starter spins the engine and it starts and speeds away from the starter and the starter stops turning that gear just sits there stopped with the starter motor while the crankshaft spins inside it up to 11k rpm. There is a sizable hole in the crank shoulder under the gear to supply plenty of lubrication between the gear hub and crank and for the other clutch parts. Notice the twin intermediate gears between the starter shaft and the big clutch gear, the one engaging the clutch gear is wider than the others to accommodate the lateral movement of the big gear on the clutch hub. I think mine moved about a mm in and out.
So which part on yours was lose that was causing the noise? I assumed the 3 bolts that I thought you were referring to held the big gear onto the hub?
No, the big gear and the hub are one part. The 3 bolts hold the outer part of the sprag type clutch to the back of the rotor. The outer part of the clutch is the loose ratling part. The gear with hub remains free on the crank shaft contained by the rotor/outer clutch part assembly that is held tight on the crank taper by the center bolt.
(http://images.powersportsnetwork.com/fiche/images/SUZUKI/2001/Motorcycles/2102_10.gif)
Is there anyway I can tell if it's lose without remove the large bolt?
Quote from: Jimbob on September 06, 2014, 04:13:06 AM
Is there anyway I can tell if it's lose without remove the large bolt?
Based on my own experience Jimbob I'd say not for certain. I first checked mine right after the knock started and it seemed to be tight and the big bolt holding the rotor on was tight so I buttoned it up and went on to check the top end and then the right side and after some time with more running time on the engine I opened the left side again and the clutch outer member was then obviously loose and I went ahead to repair it.
Your choice at this point, you can button it up and run it some more and see what happens or you can go ahead and pull the rotor and make sure that it is or is not the problem. If I had it to do over I'd pull the rotor the first time in, would have saved a lot of time and work in the long run. Your last video sounds like my loose starter clutch did but I've been wrong before on noises as most have.
Ok I'll pull it off once I get a spacer from somewhere... What length bolt do I need?
Just to confirm it is the 3 Allen key bolts on the back?
Thanks for your help so far
I used a 14mmx1.5x45mm bolt like Adidas said in his video. Was hard to find a bolt with the 1.5 pitch, they all had that diameter but not that fine of a pitch. One member used a Honda Civic oil drain plug which had the right thread and posted a picture of it so I guess the bolt could vary a bit from the specified length.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=67148.msg809741#msg809741
I found a 3/8" dia carriage bolt with a long shank and cut the 36 mm spacer from that with a hack saw. Yes, the 3 Allen key bolts (socket head capscrews) are on the back and you'll see them as soon as you pull the rotor. Here's a picture of mine a bit chewed up but not broken off yet as others have found.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/003_zpsb573f67e.jpg)
Is there any reason we can use a spacer and use the original bolt to remove it?
The bolt holding the rotor on is a smaller 12 mm bolt that goes thru a clearance hole in the rotor and threads into the crank and wouldn't pull the rotor. There is a 14 mm thread in the rotor clearance hole to accommodate the special 14 mm rotor puller bolt. You need the rotor puller bolt and 36 mm long spacer unless the rotor is already loose on the crankshaft taper.
Quote from: Jimbob on July 25, 2014, 06:52:33 PM
Here is a new video so you can hear it a bit better
http://youtu.be/96Ajlpk36jg
that sure sounds like an exhaust leak to me
Does the spacer need to be a certain diameter?
Oh I noticed you said 3/8 so about 9mm?
So after checking a number of things I took it to the mechanic he had it for a day and said it's the counter balancer shaft. Is this worth repairing? I understand it's very involved
Quote from: Jimbob on September 15, 2014, 04:04:43 AM
So after checking a number of things I took it to the mechanic he had it for a day and said it's the counter balancer shaft. Is this worth repairing? I understand it's very involved
Could be that's it Jimbob but I'd at least pull the right side cover to check it for myself before deciding what to do. Repair of that will be a big job if it's repairable at all. Here's a video from adidasguy showing what to check under right side cover. I checked mine like shown before I returned to the left side to find and fix the starter clutch knock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atq4nKfh7kg
From his thread on Repairing Junior:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=60331.msg695096#msg695096
So if that part does rattle like in the video whst does it indicate?
I really appreciate all your help so far
is it this part that I'm moving that is not suppose to move? http://youtu.be/SCXN76yqPik
Your video is private so we can't see it.
You should be able to now
Your video is working now, looks like a loose starter clutch is your problem afterall and not a balancer shaft bearing like mechanic suggested. That outer starter clutch member you are moving should be bolted tight to the rotor backside and not move. Pull the rotor and fix it.
Another quick look at your video, not sure but it also looks like the rotor is loose on the crankshaft taper a bit. If that's the case you can just remove the 12 mm bolt and pull the rotor off and won't need the 14 mm bolt and 36 mm spacer to pull it.
I tried removing the large bolt in the middle to pull it off with an assistant on the rear brake and the bike in gear but it would not budge at all
Removing that bolt is a piece of cake with an impact wrench like Rob used and like Addy showed on his video but I didn't even have electricity in the garage where I worked on mine so I did it the old fashion way.
Not having an assistant I used a piece of 2x4 thru the rear wheel spokes above the swingarm to hold the wheel from turning. Used a 18" long 1/2" drive breaker bar on the bolt with a 6 point socket and leaned on that. With bike in gear I found the clutch slipped just before the bolt broke loose so noting point where it slipped I leaned on it up to just before that point and gave it a good snap. It finally broke loose on the 2nd or 3rd try. If that hadn't worked I'd have looked to block gears somewhere to hold it while breaking it loose like Addy did in his video.
There's about 80-90 footpounds of torque specked for that bolt and I also found the clutch slipping when putting the rotor back on later but finally managed to get it above 80 ft/lbs.
Gotta get it off somehow.
I might see if a friend has a rattle gun otherwise I'll do it the other way :)
My mate had a rattle gun i can borrow I have never used one on a bike before as there any precautions I should be aware of? Like in gear out of gear etc
Be wary with rattle guns on bike bolts, still useable but set the.gun on lowest torque first and double check direction of spin. .. then if low torque doesn't work just edge it up a little at a time... oh and make sure you have precisely the right socket!
Internal type steel bolts and nuts 'should' be ok... don't also test it on anything that goes into a case or cover.. that is not steel/steel and not a good idea. .. bunnings do sell a quite good torque wrench for reasonable money (blue plastic case) and they come with a shaft size adaptor for smaller drive size too...
Ideally prefer a torque over a rattle. .. and ring spanners over crescent wrenches. .. and ALWAYS the EXACT size! unless you already have a munted bolt head. .. then you use what works to get the bastard out! Lol
Oops forgot. .. if you do rattle it off. . Hand torque it back on again ! ... rattles are NOT precision focussed
Hi Jimbob,
I had the loose rotor saga which I had to repair twice due to my lack of knowledge.
Couple of pointers, the "rope in the piston" trick actually works very well to lock the crank, and the locktite I mention in my post will prevent having to go back in a second time as I did.
http://www.gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=67052
Good luck
Brett
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
+1 Brett
There was some debate a while back on whether to lap or Locktite the rotor on the taper or both. I did both last spring repairing my loose starter clutch and it's been good since.
Here's a video of a guy lapping the taper on a Lambretta crank that might be of interest to anyone that's never lapped anything:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bezP0s0NtLc
After lapping mine and cleaning off the lapping compound I put the rotor on the crank firmly by hand and found it difficult to get back off. It had a good sucking fit and held tight without the bolt.
My vote, lap and Locktite.
I have loctite ready for when I put it back together how does the rope in piston work?
I got the main bolt out with the rattle gun but I'm having difficulty remove the rotor even with a different bolt and spacer. Any tips?
All good got it didn't know that much force was going to be necessary
So tightened up and it seems good so far. Do you guys put blue loctite on these bolts to stop them from unwinding? Also what does the spring and then 2 metal parts do? Are they suppose to put pressure on the bolts or something?
Locktite I mentioned in my post was 666 (if I remember correctly), it guess on the taper. I also put some mild std locktite on the bolt. The piston/string method is also mentioned in the post.
The only springs I can think off are the ones that push the dogs out to catch the crankshaft when one starts.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Jimbob on October 03, 2014, 01:57:13 AM
So tightened up and it seems good so far. Do you guys put blue loctite on these bolts to stop them from unwinding? Also what does the spring and then 2 metal parts do? Are they suppose to put pressure on the bolts or something?
You tightened up the existing 3 bolts? Should be new bolts when you had a loose clutch and I used blue threadlock on them and also on the lapped rotor taper when assembling. Two man job, I held the rotor with my hands while my wife pulled the torque wrench up to 15 ft/lbs on the 3 bolts holding the clutch to the rotor.
Like bmf said, the only springs are the three pushing the locking rollers (dogs) into the wedge shape in the clutch, they lock up the clutch when starter motor is driving the crank and then roll free in there after engine starts and runs away from the starter motor. Showed those parts from my bike in a previous post above.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/003_zpsb573f67e.jpg)
Be sure the starter clutch is working right before you put the side covers back on. After I put the repaired rotor/clutch assembly back on I grabbed the big gear on the back of the rotor and turned it ccw and it turned the crank and then cw and it turned free and did that repeatedly and it all seemed to be working OK. When assembling the clutch it can be a bit tricky getting the hub on the big sprocket back into the clutch assembly without one of those spring loaded parts getting out of place.
Okay well I will get 3 new bolts, you can't use the existing bolts with loctite? One of those rollers was lose and I had to put it back in. Do they ever cause issues if one is looser than the others?
I just ordered the new bolts but they will take a few days
I replaced the 3 bolts today the reason it came lose again is that those 3 bolts were stripped