All of the sudden I have noticed a "ticking" or "clacking" in my engine, most noticeable at idle. I have seen a few of these threads that point to valve clearances, but
I change my valve shims no less than 9 months ago. It ran fine for months (including a few hundred mile weekend trip), so I don't believe it is the valve clearances.
I also notice an incredible CLACK... CLACK... CLACK... when trying to start (either from cold or warm). They both started simultaneously so I'm 99% sure they're related.
Aside from valve shims, I haven't done anything major. I did replace the oil before winterizing last fall, also a brake fluid flush.
ANY help to get me started is greatly appreciated!
I have two videos as well. The first is of the startup clacking, the 2nd is at idle.
as usual, the videos don't quite do the sound justice. The videos lessen the high pitches which are enough to make me wince as I turn it over.
Thanks a TON!
2004 GS 500f
~11k
Starter clutch, Jack? :dunno_black:
Sounds like starter clutch, I'd pull the lower left cover and check that first. Starter clutch knocks hot or cold at idle up to 2 or 3k rpm some say 4k and doesn't knock above that.
Sounds like a start to me. Thanks gentlemen, I'll start repairs tomorrow when I get home from work, then report back!
Yep on the starter clutch, mine went away after 4 k ish and no it doesn't always effect starting
Well it was nice out here in the PNW so I put the M's game on and went to work...
Two questions:
1) How does one get that main bolt off? I read elsewhere to put it in a high gear and sit on the rear brake while turning and it will come loose. That got me close but it ended up slipping every time.
2) What exactly am I looking for? I've never been to this part of my bike before
(http://i.imgur.com/iL39AWUl.jpg)
Addy made a video on pulling the rotor worth watching:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=58403.msg768574#msg768574
It would be easy to break that bolt holding the rotor loose with an impact wrench but I don't even have electricity in the garage where I keep my bike. I tried breaking it loose with a 18" long breaker bar with a piece of 2x4 thru the rear wheel spokes above the swingarm to hold the wheel and the clutch slipped just before it broke loose so I eased it up to the slip point and gave it a big jerk a couple times and got it.
With the cover off can you tell if the clutch which should be bolted tight to the back of the rotor is loose?
Hey Jack, how come you don't have lectrisity in your garage? Do you live out in the boonies? I have been saving all my electricity by turning off anything not is use as it is getting very dear now in OZ. I have some spare electricity lying around here somewhere! Perhaps I can send you some sparks in a can! :icon_rolleyes:
Macka
Quote from: prmas on July 22, 2014, 12:30:43 AM
Hey Jack, how come you don't have lectrisity in your garage? Do you live out in the boonies? I have been saving all my electricity by turning off anything not is use as it is getting very dear now in OZ. I have some spare electricity lying around here somewhere! Perhaps I can send you some sparks in a can! :icon_rolleyes:
Macka
Actually I live in an apartment complex near the center of town and park the car outside. Got a garage across the street in a row of garages behind another building to keep the bike in and they don't have electricity to the garages. We are moving tomorrow to a house out in the country and it does have an attached garage with electricity. So after moving from the center of town to the boonies I will finally have electricity in the garage. :icon_lol:
Will be tearing down our desktops, printers, etc and packing them away in a few hours and don't know how soon I'll be connected again so if I don't respond for a day or two you'll know why. Movers will be here at 8:30 am tomorrow to load us up. While we have our seperate desktops (wife and I) we have a shared laptop that I might get a turn on before desktops are setup again. :dunno_black:
FreshGroundPepper, my bike started knocking a few miles from home on my first ride of the season this spring so I had only gone a short distance until I got back home to check it out. When I first pulled the left cover everything looked good to me and I buttoned it up and went on to pull the top and left covers in turn looking for the knock without success. Later after a couple of test rides and a lot of running time in the garage I pulled the left cover again and the loose starter clutch had loosened considerably more and the problem was then obvious. You may have to pull the rotor before you are sure whether the clutch is loose or not. :dunno_black:
Ya see the flats on centre spigot of the rotor housing? This is the tool that slips in there and uses the flats to hold it all nice and tight while you remove the centre bolt. Once the rotor is prevented from moving, a bit of a tap on the ring spanner or socket bar should jar the centre retaining bolt into motion. Now don't rush off and buy this item cos with a drill and an angle grinder and a file and a bit of patience and a couple of beers, you can knock the tool up real quick out of a bit of scrap plate.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Suzuki-nos-oem-Universal-Clamp-rotor-holder-09930-44510-/170975733834?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27cef2a84a
But, really, the easy way is an air gun or an impact driver….should just pop that centre bolt out no problem.
Well... I'm making SOME progress, but before I go too far, I'd like to find (and get shipped on the way to me) a gasket but I'm having trouble finding one. Anybody who knows what theyre doing help me out?
I'd never pay that for that tool thats insane.....and also check out your local sealership or http://www.suzukipartshouse.com/?gclid=CIK8hN7J2r8CFehaMgodX0QA9w
Finally found a gasket at partzilla. I'll report back when I have more news.
I used a vice-grip with the chain attachment to hold the rotor , had a thin rubber strip to prevent scratches. That with an old fork for leverage and the rotor remained motionless while I removed the bolt. Think about locktite 660 to lock the rotor in place if you see scratch marks on the tapers (after you sanded the marks down of course)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: gsJack on July 22, 2014, 06:21:38 AM
FreshGroundPepper, my bike started knocking a few miles from home on my first ride of the season this spring so I had only gone a short distance until I got back home to check it out. When I first pulled the left cover everything looked good to me and I buttoned it up and went on to pull the top and left covers in turn looking for the knock without success. Later after a couple of test rides and a lot of running time in the garage I pulled the left cover again and the loose starter clutch had loosened considerably more and the problem was then obvious. You may have to pull the rotor before you are sure whether the clutch is loose or not. :dunno_black:
On this (and others in the thread), did you have to actually replace the clutch? Or just re-tighten the bolt, or other parts?
Well I FINALLY got around to fixing this... After a lot of work the noise seems to have gone away. Luckily for me though I think I have 1 (if not 2) more issue(s).
First is a leak in my electrical somewhere as my battery seems to be dropping way faster than it should and my light occasionally stays on after I turn the bike off and pull the key out (yes with the key out of the ignition).
Second, there's now a VERY noticeable clicking when idle and at low RPM's. It's sounds very much like it needs a valve adjustment, unfortunately I just did that about a thousand miles ago... So I have NO clue what's going on.
wonderful :(
Okay, well after ignoring it for the last month of summer, putting it away for the winter, and finally getting it back out, I need to fix this.
The good news is I've got the bolt off! Now I can't figure out how to get the clutch assembly off.
In adidas' video he mentions the spacer + a bolt to push through, but as far as I can tell the bolt he suggest is not the same size as the bolt that actually belongs in there. To me that doesn't make sense, but if it IS correct, I'll buy a bolt of the right size, plus cut a spacer from something.
Can somebody confirm it is indeed just a M14 x 1.5 bolt plus a 33mm spacer? Also, if that's the case, if I found (unlikely, just curious) an M14 x 1.5 bolt that was an extra 33mm long would that work too?
Thanks everybody for your help. Also, I'm praying it is indeed the starter clutch and not a crankshaft balancer bearing as adidas once had. RIP man cause that is a job I really don't want to do. Opening the crankcase just to replace a bearing is a real PITA.
video i'm referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxS5yZ44AHU
Yeah i had an issue with my starter clutch and i used a rattle gun to get the main bolt off.
I cant remember the size of the spacer but yeah that goes in then the bolt which pushes the starter cluth off which then gives you access to the 3 bolts which come lose and get striped. If they are lose then I would replace them :)
Quote from: FreshGroundPepper on June 16, 2015, 10:49:49 PM...................Can somebody confirm it is indeed just a M14 x 1.5 bolt plus a 33mm spacer? Also, if that's the case, if I found (unlikely, just curious) an M14 x 1.5 bolt that was an extra 33mm long would that work too?
It's a 14mmx1.5x45mm bolt needed to pull the rotor off and I made my 36mm spacer by sawing a piece of the smooth shank from a 3/8" carriage bolt. The length of the spacer is more important than the length of the bolt, it fits down into the threaded hole in the end of the crankshaft so the M14 bolt can press on it to pull the rotor without messing up the thread in the end of the crank.
Wouldn't I just need a spacer then? And use the already existing crankshaft bolt to push it down while I remove the assembly.
I just don't understand why you would need an entirely separate bolt that has the same threading and size (not length) as the crankshaft bolt.
In any event, I can feel the pieces are loose and I've already ordered the 3 bolts that hold it together. Hopefully it won't take too long for those to arrive.
Thanks again for everybodys help!
No, the 14mm threaded hole in the rotor bore provides a clearance hole for the smaller (12X40) bolt that holds the rotor to the crankshaft. The 14mm threaded hole in the rotor is there to accomodate a puller for rotor removal.
Ah I understand now! Thanks for clearing that up.
Lucky for me, the wheel bolts to my car are just that size, so I just need to find something to cut a spacer out of and wait for the parts.
Welp I may have just turned my working bike into a parts bike.
I made a 36mm spacer out of a bolt, took my m14x1.5 lug bolt, sent the spacer down the middle of the magnet assembly, and put the lug bolt after it. After a while the wheel started to spin so I put a block between it and the swingarm and kept going. Finally it started to get real tough and the lug bolt would no longer go further and something inside the engine was spinning. As if it was turning the crankshaft but slipping at the wheel/chain. I then pulled the m14x1.5 bolt out and the spacer was still in there, obviously unable to be removed because it was 2 inches down.
Before I scratch the VIN off and send it over the nearest cliff, any other ideas on getting off the starter clutch assembly?
When the wheel is blocked in gear and the crankshaft turns it's the clutch slipping. I had that too using a 18" breaker bar and finally broke it loose by pulling it right to the slip point and then giving it a big jerk. Should be easy with an impact wrench but I was working in a non electric garage.
You're saying it's JUST about to pop off? And I can probably get it by, like you say, getting it to the slip point and jamming it quick?
I don't have a breaker bar sadly.
Worked for me. Maybe you can get it by blocking gears like Addy did in his vid.
http://youtu.be/GxS5yZ44AHU
Just a quick PSA to anybody who does this: Make sure you use the correct diameter of the spacer. I was under the impression THAT wasn't so important. It is.
(http://i.imgur.com/WmQVgeMl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/wFLOd8xl.jpg)
Even if I COULD drill that out, I'm pretty sure the threads for the crankshaft bolt would be f%&ked too.
uh oh
I don't know what comes next for you, but in the interest of helping the next guy could you tell us what size spacer you used?
When I replaced my rotor and starter clutch I used a 3/8" spacer as discussed in this thread:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=42350.0 (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=42350.0)
Ace Hardware sells spacers made out of a nice hard steel, so you don't have to go making one if you don't want to.
I found that a combination of a strap wrench and Addy's 'allen wrench in the gears' method works great for all the different things that want to spin.
To be honest, I'm not really sure on the diameter of the spacer I used. Ill have to get it out and measure. It would have to have been JUST less than 3/8" because it seems like that's what everybody is using and it works fine for them. I would assume if you have a 3/8 spacer you should be okay, but don't quote me on that, obviously I'm not a pro at this.
Tonight I'm going to try drilling it out and re-tapping the hole. If I get far enough to tap the hole I'll call it a success.
I checked online for a replacement crankshaft and it was in the $650 range, and obviously that requires completely removing the crankcase, etc. etc. I don't exactly have a local scrap yard to get parts from but I figured there's probably plenty of totaled gs's out there with a perfect crankshaft.
Quote from: gsJack on June 17, 2015, 04:53:27 AM
Quote from: FreshGroundPepper on June 16, 2015, 10:49:49 PM...................Can somebody confirm it is indeed just a M14 x 1.5 bolt plus a 33mm spacer? Also, if that's the case, if I found (unlikely, just curious) an M14 x 1.5 bolt that was an extra 33mm long would that work too?
It's a 14mmx1.5x45mm bolt needed to pull the rotor off and I made my 36mm spacer by sawing a piece of the smooth shank from a 3/8" carriage bolt. The length of the spacer is more important than the length of the bolt, it fits down into the threaded hole in the end of the crankshaft so the M14 bolt can press on it to pull the rotor without messing up the thread in the end of the crank.
Wow, you have a mess there now FreshGroundPepper. I mention I used a 3/8" dia spacer above, guess I better stress the diameter's importance next time. I made sure my spacer was bottomed in the tapped hole in the crank before starting the M14 puller bolt, I should have mentioned that too.
Yeah you mentioned it but in a few other places I looked on how to do this nobody really mentioned it. Or if they did, they didn't stress it was important, they just sorta said that was the size they found spare around their house and used.
Also the spacer I used was definitely bottomed out before I put the m14x1.5 bolt in. As in, I couldn't push it any farther with my finger. Who knows, maybe my spacer was just made out of lead or something.
Regardless, I really hope I can drill it out and everything will be good. I've been pretty damn unlucky with this fix so far so I'm hoping by bad luck has run dry.
well i'm relieved
(http://i.imgur.com/A8XRIpzl.jpg)
Threads look fine. And it took all of 5 minutes to get out with a bolt extractor.
and to answer the size of the spacer: I'll be honest, both ends are pretty messed up, but it looks damn close to 3/8". Given the state of this repair though it must NOT be, my guess is 8mm. It is bent though. I believe the bending is what caused it to seize in the crankshaft and stop the m14x1.5 bolt from continually moving in and finally push the magnet assembly off.
Anyhow, i'm going to clean up everything and put the new clutch bolts on (which came in the mail today). I also have a 12x1.25 tap for the crankshaft I'll use just to clean up anything. Id rather be safe than sorry. With all that, I hope to have everything back together and oiled up mid next week.
:thumb:
Congrats on getting that spacer out of there, I thought you would be shopping for a new engine.
Well everyone will be happy to hear the bike started up and ran just fine!*
I didn't go on a very long trip, just a few miles to run an errand, but there was 0 "clacking" during the ride.
I believe the videos in my OP are two different things, the first being a bad battery trying - and failing - to start it, the second of course being the loose starter clutch.
To anybody that comes across this thread I have two suggestions:
First get a nice, big, leather, strap wrench for tightening and loosening the crankshaft bolt. Here's the exact one I ordered (http://www.amazon.com/BOA-BO13010-Constrictor-Aluminum-Wrench/dp/B0011E4QU4/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1436201553&sr=1-1&keywords=BOA+BO13010+Constrictor+Aluminum+Strap+Wrench). The board-in-wheel, or high-gear-with-foot-on-rear-break methods all do work, but I struggled quite a bit and spent quite some time trying to perfect them when I could have just ordered that tool. If you're not in the mood to spend $20 though, it completely understandable.
Secondly, make sure you DO use the right sized spacer in both width and length (smooth, 3/8" width, 36mm length). Obviously I didn't think the width was so important and it got me into a mess. Thankfully a basic bolt extractor was all that was needed and it came out QUITE easily so I had some luck.
Also, not really a suggestion but if anybody is looking for an m14x1.5 bolt, it's a very common lug bolt for german cars, e.g. Audi, BMW, etc. If you've got a neighbor or somebody you can take a bolt from and borrow it for 20 minutes to do this, you won't have to buy one.
And one last thought: could a single m14x1.5 bolt with no spacer do the trick? I know I've been told a thousand times the spacer needs to go in. The only reason I ask is if you look at my picture where the spacer is stuck down the crankshaft, it's deeper that the m14x1.5 bolt could go which makes me think I just cranked the m14 bolt down - while pushing the spacer in - until the m14 bolt finally made contact and pushed the whole assembly off. I only had a 27mm m14 bolt so I would think anything that size or larger could work if somebody wants to test.
In any event, thanks a ton to everybody who helped! I'm glad I got it figured out. I'll add a note to the videos I posted to anybody that comes across them.
*Now there's an odd sound coming completely randomly as I coast or decelerate. It's the sound of a loose strap banging the side of the frame or tank... I don't think that's it because I'd see it, but that's EXACTLY what it sounds like. I'm 99% sure that sound and the things I just got done fixing aren't related but I'll look into it and start a new thread if I need help.
Quote from: FreshGroundPepper on July 06, 2015, 10:06:30 AM
First get a nice, big, leather, strap wrench for tightening and loosening the crankshaft bolt. Here's the exact one I ordered (http://www.amazon.com/BOA-BO13010-Constrictor-Aluminum-Wrench/dp/B0011E4QU4/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1436201553&sr=1-1&keywords=BOA+BO13010+Constrictor+Aluminum+Strap+Wrench). The board-in-wheel, or high-gear-with-foot-on-rear-break methods all do work, but I struggled quite a bit and spent quite some time trying to perfect them when I could have just ordered that tool. If you're not in the mood to spend $20 though, it completely understandable.
This.
The $5 strap wrench from Harbor Freight will not work when it comes time to tighten the rotor bolt to spec. The cashier even warned me that it was crap. I was able to use it to undo the bolts, but it broke before reaching the specified torque when putting everything back together. I just put an allen wrench in the gears, like in Addys video, but that could cause damage.
Quote from: Bluesmudge on July 06, 2015, 11:10:07 AM
Quote from: FreshGroundPepper on July 06, 2015, 10:06:30 AM
First get a nice, big, leather, strap wrench for tightening and loosening the crankshaft bolt. Here's the exact one I ordered (http://www.amazon.com/BOA-BO13010-Constrictor-Aluminum-Wrench/dp/B0011E4QU4/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1436201553&sr=1-1&keywords=BOA+BO13010+Constrictor+Aluminum+Strap+Wrench). The board-in-wheel, or high-gear-with-foot-on-rear-break methods all do work, but I struggled quite a bit and spent quite some time trying to perfect them when I could have just ordered that tool. If you're not in the mood to spend $20 though, it completely understandable.
This.
The $5 strap wrench from Harbor Freight will not work when it comes time to tighten the rotor bolt to spec. The cashier even warned me that it was crap. I was able to use it to undo the bolts, but it broke before reaching the specified torque when putting everything back together. I just put an allen wrench in the gears, like in Addys video, but that could cause damage.
Yep I did addys allen wrench trick as well here and there, but I too was nervous it could damage something.