Hello, guys!
My problem is that the brake lever stiffens when I squeeze it slowly, like if I'm driving. When I pull it fast and use more force there is no problem but when I do it slowly and carefully, as if I was stopping on the road, it stiffens and what happens in real life is: When I'm riding and I need to break, I pull the lever slowly and it stops at a point(the stiffening), when I push harder it suddenly works as it should and I get a stopped front tire while doing 60 mph which is close to falling.... I recently changed the brake fluid because the old fluid was very very bad and it couldn't stop properly. After the fluid change the bike stops a lot better.
Also, when I push the lever down or I pull it up and then squeeze it, there is no problem at all...
After the fluid change I let the air out as I should have, I even did that process like a hundred times but still no change... I unbolted the lever, cleaned it with WD and greased it - again nothing...
Please help, guys, I'm out of options... :(
Here's a video of me showing you what I'm struggling with...
Are you sure you didn't overtighten the bolt that holds the lever in the perch?
Yes, I'm sure. I even did it without the bolt being tightened at all and there was no change.
Squirt some WD-40 in the slot where it pivots. They get sticky now and then.
If it were me, I'd start from the top and work my way down. Check the lever itself for any build-up. Clean it and lubricate it. Check the master cylinder for gunk. Then make sure the line is nice and clean... no build-up, no mess, no air. If the old fluid was really that bad, you could have some dried up fluid still in there causing problems. Next option would be to check the caliper. If the pistons are having issues moving in and out, that could be your problem. One random tip I heard years back was to tie your lever fully back over night. Pull it all the way in, use wire or bungee cord, or anything to hold it in position. Not sure exactly why, but I've heard it helps.
gsJack, I squirted WD, I actually bathed the MF in it but nothing happened...
Supa, the lever has been cleaned thoroughly and then lubricated but no help... the master cylinder is clean, I circulated the whole system with brand new fluid, 500 ml went through that line... still nothing... the caliper is OK, I think. I squeeze the brake a couple of times and then release it and the tyre spins freely. I guess next thing should be that lever tie over night.
Did you disassemble your MC and clean/inspect it? It almost sounds like there is a problem with the MC piston moving through its travel.
You need some snap ring pliers with a very skinny point to get the snap ring that holds the piston into the MC out. I had to file the end of mine down a little, and then they worked like a charm.
I just tied the lever all the way just like Supa said.
bombsquad83, I haven't inspected the pistons yet, I haven't even detached the caliper from the disc. I think I messed up somewhere because that occured after the fluid change but still I can't imagine what could've happen...? Or maybe it is indeed a piston problem and I haven't had it so far because the old fluid was way too old and I couldn't use all the brake force? I don't know... I will inspect the piston tomorrow.
By the way, the sound you hear in the video comes from the upper part, the lever/fluid bowl.
I was talking about the piston and seal in the master cylinder, not the caliper.
Quote from: bombsquad83 on November 13, 2014, 07:49:38 PM
I was talking about the piston and seal in the master cylinder, not the caliper.
I'm with Bomb on this one. If you've cleaned / greased the pivot bolt and you're still getting a sticky lever, the next possibility I'd look at is either a M/C rebuild kit or an entire new M/C. Sometimes it is actually the body of the master cylinder that causes the piston to stick.
Fwiw, Suzuki used the same piston on plenty of bikes, so the rebuild kits are pretty easy to find.
A friend of mine has a 07' GSR and when I pulled his lever it was the same as mine, not as much but still the same problem... I don't think that's normal in any way but it's interesting that when I pull or push the lever up or down and then squeeze it - it goes smoothly all the way...
PS: I will now remove the lever and lubricate it again and if that doesn't fix it I'll take the master cylinder off and clean it thoroughly, might aswell take the caliper off and clean the piston.
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Based on your description and the fact that pushing or pulling the lever up/down and it works fine leads me to believe the issue is either in your lever or your master cylinder. I would disassemble the master cylinder assembly, clean it entirely (paying extra attention to the piston), and reassemble it making sure that everything is seated properly. This diagram might help you figure out where the issue could be.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Hydraylic_disc_brake_diagram.jpg/1024px-Hydraylic_disc_brake_diagram.jpg)
Edit: added image...
It's smoother if you push the lever up or down? I'd guess it definitely has something to do with the brake lever pivot bolt. Clean / grease / replace.
Watched the vid... that is Exactly what my lever did when I got the bike. I had changed the fluid and still had the problem (needed to do that anyway). I could pull the lever in and out quickly while stopped and it wouldn't show a problem... slow it down like you are actually using the front brake correctly and it would stick at points along the slow pull... that problem out on the road, applying the lever slowly it would kind of catch a little and get harder to pull for a micro second, then I would add more tension to overcome it, and it would force me to jerk past the sticky point and really catch the brakes - very scary as a newer rider. Looked just like your lever in the vid. I had read a post from gsJack about the lever kind of sticking at times, and his solution of applying WD40 every so often to it. I went ahead and tried it, it took a few application and working it in the right areas, but that is ultimately what it was. Since then, I've done this process at the beginning of each season, and it hasn't occurred since.
- Bboy
Well, I started cleaning my chain today and cut my finger badly.... I just got operated and will be sitting in hospital for 2-3 days, never having nail anymore :( im so stupid.....
That being done I will not be Able to work on my bike for a while but as soon as i get better i will continue and update you on my case...
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Ouch DD. Feel better and recover swiftly!
Roaring via Tapatalk.
Thank you!
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Bummer DD hope you recover well. The brake problem sounds like 'sticktion' somewhere in the system. My first step would have to be a complete disassembly and rebuild of the brake system. This might sound like a hassle, but if you've done it once or twice, it's a kitty cat of a job.
I could be that your flexible brake hose has collapsed internally and is acting like a check valve. See if the brake is dragging after stopping.
regards
mech
Quote from: DevilDesire on November 14, 2014, 04:30:29 PM
Well, I started cleaning my chain today and cut my finger badly.... I just got operated and will be sitting in hospital for 2-3 days, never having nail anymore :( im so stupid.....
That being done I will not be Able to work on my bike for a while but as soon as i get better i will continue and update you on my case...
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How did you cut yourself so badly while cleaning your chain? Please let us know so we can learn from your experience. So sorry about the loss of your fingernail, that sounds gruesome
Ouch. Get well soon!
lucas, my guess would be bike on centre stand, in gear and running. Never do that, that's how things like this happen.
Well, I did indeed use the bike in gear and running while on center stand but only for the cleaning agent appliance. I mashed my thumb when I stopped the engine and started cleaning with a piece of cloth. My leg got a cramp and I fell towards the bike with my left hand on the rear wheel turning it with the power of my body mass and my right hand and most importantly thumb got stuck in between the chain and rear sprocket... It got stuck because the chain was loose and when the bike was on center stand it got even looser, so I kinda mashed my finger through that sprocket... awful indeed. The damage to my finger was done when I pulled my hand by reflex ripping a bit of meat and half of the nail. The cut had been to the bone but couldn't damage it. Doctors said I only had scratched the bone a little. I got stitched and now going through some awful pain... They said that in about 1-2 months my thumb will start recreating that lost soft tissue and will be fully useable but there is a good chance I'm left without a nail.
Moral of the story: Use a little chair while doing something on the lower part of your bike and loose some weight! :D :D :D
Milk crate stool! ... 'free' and multiple uses!
Quote from: DevilDesire on November 14, 2014, 04:30:29 PM
Well, I started cleaning my chain today and cut my finger badly.... I just got operated and will be sitting in hospital for 2-3 days, never having nail anymore :( im so stupid.....
That being done I will not be Able to work on my bike for a while but as soon as i get better i will continue and update you on my case...
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Sorry for your injury. How did it happen?
I've explained that 2 posts up :)
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That sucks man. Hope it heals up soon. I've been there. Cut my thumb on a band saw years ago. Cut down to the bone as well.
And I second the milk crate! Actually cleaned my chain yesterday and the milk crate is a life saver on the legs.
Yep, it's really f%&ked up, because without a useful thumb you have no opposing force to the rest of your fingers and therefore you're much like a one-hander... :D I'm getting better tho, just headed back home from hospital, they removed my venflon and now I'll only have to go to a doctor for re-bandaging every 2-3 days and hopefully in a couple of months I'll have my thumb's contours fine and back to normal. Almost all my relatives are now like: "Sell that bike, you could die any moment while on it!" Hahaha, another evidence for me that a "non-rider" can never understand the rider's thrill for gasoline in his blood... I may even be on a scooter but don't think I'll let go of the 2 wheels... :icon_twisted:
Thanks to you all for caring for my injury even though you have never met me in person. I have close friends that didn't care about me and at the same time people here that are thousands of kilometers away ask how I'm doing... I'm really thankful! Be safe and learn from my experience, use a damn milk stool :D It sure sounds ridiculous but from now on is a must-have in my garage!
No no. .. milk CRATE! lol
Well, they are both small and low so.. :D :cheers:
Milk crate stool.
Milk Crate
(http://atomictoasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Blue_Milk_Crate.jpg)
Milk Stool
(http://p2.la-img.com/237/761/338172_1_l.jpg)
Milk Crate Stool ???
(http://modernurbanliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/milk-crate-4_Po4hg_7071.jpeg)
Quote from: Supa on November 17, 2014, 11:25:34 AM
Milk Crate
(http://atomictoasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Blue_Milk_Crate.jpg)
Milk Stool
(http://p2.la-img.com/237/761/338172_1_l.jpg)
Milk Crate Stool ???
(http://modernurbanliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/milk-crate-4_Po4hg_7071.jpeg)
This thread has run the gauntlet of emotions. Its funny, I actually have an old foot stool in my shop for servicing my bike....neither milk crate, nor milk stool, nor milk crate stool....foot stool.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/17/7d8b9f864da69d3d27517cdd1495d7ab.jpg)
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That doesn't look 12" tall! ... it should be called a half foot stool! Lol!
Quote from: DevilDesire on November 16, 2014, 10:32:53 AM
I've explained that 2 posts up :)
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Sorry for the double post, it's odd my internet browser wasn't updating so it looked to me like there were no new posts, not even the replies I submitted. I just assumed I forgot to click " post"
It's is amazing how quickly we can do permanent damage to ourselves on an otherwise ordinary day. Heal up soon, I hope it doesn't hurt very much.
Yep, sometimes an ordinary day becomes true hell... :D
It hurts but with each day the pain goes away bit by bit. I should be OK in a couple of months. :)
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Glad to hear your recovery progresses, sir.
My friend lost a portion of his index and middle fingers (from the last knuckle to the tip) when his rag he was holding got caught up into the chain while he was spinning it post wipe-down, pulling his fingers into the spinning chain and sprocket. At least your injury will be less permanent...
Quote from: PantheraLeo on November 20, 2014, 12:29:55 PM
Glad to hear your recovery progresses, sir.
My friend lost a portion of his index and middle fingers (from the last knuckle to the tip) when his rag he was holding got caught up into the chain while he was spinning it post wipe-down, pulling his fingers into the spinning chain and sprocket. At least your injury will be less permanent...
Awww, that's awful... Yep, I'll at least have my whole finger... Will take time but it's still going to recover.
Late reply... but I think the 'sticktion' or stick-slip happens because of a lack of oil/grease between the tip of the plunger protruding from the master cylinder, and the part of the brake lever that touches the plunger and pushes it into the master cylinder when you use the brake.
The thing to remember is that the plunger moves in a straight line when you pull the brake lever, while the brake lever follows a circle path (since it rotates around its hinge).
So the contact surfaces of the plunger and the brake lever will slide over each other as you pull the brake lever towards the handlebars. If the contact surfaces are not lubricated, stick-slip occurs either at this contact surface, or between the plunger and the bore of the master cylinder, as the plunger is being pushed sideways by the brake lever.
I've had sticky brakes myself and after applying some oil to the end of the plunger, it disappeared.
Thank you, I'll try that when I get better! :cheers:
I had the same issue on my GS500.
I put some WD40 on the master cylinder, and it fixed my problem.
Make sure you use the straw, to get the oil very localized behind the lever and between the rubber.
It took a few hard squeezes for the oil to spread.
My theory is that the brake oil is somewhat acidic, and causes rust on the master cylinder.WD40 took care of that issue in my case.
I'll take the whole lever off the bike, clean the pivot bolt again but with WD only, because last time I also greased it. Then I will spray the master cylinder thoroughly from all sides and reassemble.
Wd40 is 'creepy'. :)
just as long as a little can find its way to the cylinder, it'll creep in the cracks as you pump the brake. My front brake is working well now.
If the lever is stiff on the pivot when you pull it slowly why is it free when you do it quickly???
Surely its either free or it isn't :dunno_black:
I think all the possibilities have been covered but its difficult to say exactly what's wrong without some investigating.
If you decide to go into the master cylinder don't even think about it before getting a pair of these first
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDM5WDQ0NA==/$(KGrHqF,!o8FBkd2ctLCBQoreJehv!~~60_57.JPG)
There is a deep circlip that HAS to come out and without the tool to do it you are pi**ing in the wind.
Slow brake squeeze vs quick brake grab... slight angle of force change on lever/pivot maybe? ..
Btw. . Xt500 pics?
I agree with Sander on page two.Be sure to check the brake lever to master cylinder contact point- that can make exactly this noise!!Do that before pulling everything apart.
Hey when you mentioned your accident and losing a nail,i could feel it!!!Ouch :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:.I hope it feels good soon.
Btw,can you ride still?
My finger's getting better but will take a couple of months more :D The nail is no more but it will be 2-3mm shorter, I have a little part of the bone removed... Yes, I can ride but it's really cold here. It's been raining for a few days, there is now snow yet but still it's cold and wet. My genuine riding problem now is that I cannot put my gloves on :( I've got a little problem with the brake squeeze too but the pain is bearable.
All in all, a bad experience... At least I'll save up some money that I will later use on a new chain, sprockets, clutch lever, brake lever, front and rear brake pads, a little paint job, new handlebars, bar ends... stuff like that :D Maybe, if WD in the master cylinder and lever push point doesn't help, I'll get a new cylinder or a repair kit. A front new tire is also on the list.
P.S.: @Janx101: When I change the angle of force while squeezing it's OK. But I have to push down or pull up while on the squeeze to have no problem with it. If I just change the angle by a little bit it doesn't get a lot better, just a like a little relief on the lever stiffening.
By the way, all that started occuring after brake fluid change and brake bleeding. The rear brake was done in about a minute or so and it works perfectly, the front took 10-15 minutes of bleeding and at the end of the process this started happening... I bled it a couple of times more but no change. I suspect that either I have problem with the pivot bolt or the whole lever, it may be bent a little bit. Also, Sander and Ron's suggestion sounds a lot reasonable. Bad thing is that I can't do anything now, I can't even take a philips screw off :( damn that right thumb....
Glad to hear you are improving, DD. You'll be better in no time...in time for spring riding!
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Today I took the brake lever off, sanded the master cylinder's piston that touch with it, I also sanded the lever and sprayed WD all over the place. Didn't do a lot tho. The cylinder's piston was rough but sanding it didn't fix the issue. The lever's touching point isn't soft either. It looks like the material's gotten mashed a bit where it pushes the piston. Is it supposed to have that little mash or it has to be smooth and roundy? After the sanding process(note that I couldn't sand the lever properly because I can't hold it still with my injured hand) it didn't get a lot better, but when I rode it, it seemed to not make much of a deal like it did before. I mean that when I squeezed the lever while riding before it was really noticable and uneven stopping to the point of almost if not actually blocking the front tire but now the bike seems to stop, say "more properly". I'll be ordering new levers anyway, hope that fixes the issue. If not I guess I'll have to rebuild the cylinder.
P.S: Is the lever supposed to have vertical free play? It goes up and down a bit. Tightening the pivot bolt took away some of the free play but not all of it. Is it supposed to be like this or is my cylinder's lever clamp area bent?
Levers wear out their little bush type bearing in the pivot point.Tightening the bolt only partly fixes the problem -the looseness will soon come back. The proper fix is to fit a new lever,and possibly a new bolt.
Hmm,i'm not sure what to think of the main brake situation now.So polishing and lubing that main lever/piston contact point only partly fixed it? My feelings now are to go ahead and instal a new master cylinder.at the very least to be on the safe side.They're not very expensive.
One very important bit of knowledge i can give: Be sure to use proper brake type rubber grease when installing any master cylinder parts!Dont make the mistake i made and assume the workshop manual is always right!!The manual didnt mention anything about grease!
I went through several master cylinder kits and one genuine complete master cylinder before i found the problem.Even brand new genuine parts got sticky after a few months of use.What a nightmare :icon_sad: :icon_sad: :icon_sad:
In fact maybe you should try cleaning and greasing your master cylinder before doing anything else?It cant hurt
I sanded the brake lever again and sprayed the hell out of it with WD-40. Much improvement has been noticed. I am ordering new levers from eBay, I didn't find any cheap ones from the shorty style that fit the GS so I'll order OEM red levers.
P.S.: What I noticed is that my lever has 6 levels of adjustment and the other GS's levers have 4. Guess my lever has been changed by the PO.
And here's some pictures of today's riding:
(http://i.imgur.com/2SJKRsW.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/TQob2xQ.jpg?1)
And here a friend of mine thought his high beams are stronger than my low beams... fool ahahahah :D :D :D
(http://i.imgur.com/iJJbGM6.jpg?1)
Merry christmas!
Oops!When i said above
"My feelings now are to go ahead and instal a new master cylinder.at the very least to be on the safe side.They're not very expensive"
What i meant to say was "master cylinder KIT" ,that is, the piston part
Well, I looked at all the kits around the ebays and I can't find one under 50$ shipped to Bulgaria.... I'll change the levers and pads now, if the problem persists, master cylinder kit it is...
Wow you're in bulgaria?Cool.This forum has people from everywhere :-)
Dont forget the rubber grease,that could be all it needs!
As i said in an earlier post- i couldn't even make genuine master cylinder or piston parts work smoothly for long without it!
To be safe,get a good brand of grease for brake rubber parts.That way you know there will be no issues with brake fluid compatibility. In australia where i am for example, PBR brand costs well under $20.
After taking the master cylinder piston out and cleaning everything, put a thin coat of the grease on the two rubber seals.That's all that's needed :-)