So as mentioned in another thread, I blew the cylinder gasket (the gasket at the bottom where the cylinder meets the crank case). But considering the ongoing issues I have been having with my bike I think it is time to tear the engine apart and do a full rebuild of the engine. I have never done anything like this before so I am a bit intimidated to be honest. If anyone can help me with good links to instructions, tools I will need, pit falls to watch out for, etc... basically any advice is welcome. I will post back later, I am at work right now so sorry for a brief first post.
So for an amateur mechanic would you recommend the Clymer service manual (about $30) or the official Suzuki Factory Service Manual (about $100). I am thinking the factory manual probably has more detail and is basically the final word on specifications/configurations, but the Clymer manual may be easier for me to follow along with and it is way cheaper... thoughts?
Buy a Clymer or Haynes manual thru gstwins link and download the 89-99 GS500E Suzuki Shop Manual from carlsalter.com for free. Clymer and Haynes are more descriptive.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1844258815/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1844258815&linkCode=as2&tag=gstwincom
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892878339/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0892878339&linkCode=as2&tag=gstwincom
check Ebay you can find clymer, haynes and suzuki service manuals for around the 20-50$ mark
Ive got both a clymer and a factory service manual, think i paid 15$ for clymer and 30$ for the yellow service manual.
but im in the process of finding and replaceing all my manuals with PDF dvd copies. easyer to keep track of and less shelf space needed.
not to mention you can put PDF on a tablet or phone while working on the bike and have it on hand all times.
With the PDF copy, you can also print out a couple pages at a time of what you're working on. That way your phone / tablet doesn't get oily.
A couple things I want to mention: the base gasket and head gasket should both be replaced. Those, along with the 8 (?) crush washers on the engine studs are considered "one use" - once the engine stud nuts are loosened up they recommend replacing both gaskets and the crush washers.
Quote from: Big Rich on November 26, 2014, 02:30:30 PM
With the PDF copy, you can also print out a couple pages at a time of what you're working on. That way your phone / tablet doesn't get oily.
A couple things I want to mention: the base gasket and head gasket should both be replaced. Those, along with the 8 (?) crush washers on the engine studs are considered "one use" - once the engine stud nuts are loosened up they recommend replacing both gaskets and the crush washers.
the copper crush washers? they are solid copper - I cut the OEM one's that came off my bike. I also measured the thickness, with a few thou of a difference between the ones that had been on the bike. and the brand new ones I bought? why would they recommend you replace them? I only replaced mine because the engine gasket rebuild kit I bought came with new ones.. but I don't see why you couldn't re-use them... maybe you know something about them I don't?
I intend to replace basically all the wearable parts in the engine, all the gasket, o-rings, washers... whatever should be replaced, will be replaced. I am also going to clean all the carbon build up to make sure the valves are seating properly. Basically when this is done I want 0 stones left unturned if you know what I mean. I want this engine to look and run like it came from the factory. It only has 2400 miles on it for f***s sake!! lol
Well this will be interesting nonetheless, kinda looking at this as a completely separate project from the rest of the bike restoration... I am going to take my time and do it right.
Walker, because the crush washers are soft metal and act as a gasket of sorts, any defect can make them weep oil. So at least the outer 4 should be replaced when the large acorn nuts are loosened. I've reused them before without issues, but I've also reused them and had a weeping oil leak. I mentioned them specifically because it's easy to worry about everything else with an engine tear down.
Weaver: speaking of the engine studs..... there is a sequence when loosening / tightening them (the standard cross pattern). Any of the manuals will have a picture with the studs numbered, but the cylinder head will also have the numbers cast in - they can be hard to read unless the engine is pretty clean.
Quote from: Big Rich on November 26, 2014, 06:44:36 PM
Walker, because the crush washers are soft metal and act as a gasket of sorts, any defect can make them weep oil. So at least the outer 4 should be replaced when the large acorn nuts are loosened. I've reused them before without issues, but I've also reused them and had a weeping oil leak. I mentioned them specifically because it's easy to worry about everything else with an engine tear down.
Weaver: speaking of the engine studs..... there is a sequence when loosening / tightening them (the standard cross pattern). Any of the manuals will have a picture with the studs numbered, but the cylinder head will also have the numbers cast in - they can be hard to read unless the engine is pretty clean.
wait are we talking the o-ring in the headgasket, or the copper washers that sit on top of the studs??
Copper washers. The orings can be reused no problem.....until they leak.
I've owned 17 GS'es, rebuilt 0 of em. I've replaced the whole lump in a few of em and in some cases even swapped in a GR650 motor, I would really look for a motor.
Cool.
Buddha.
I pulled the head on my 02 at about 20k miles to replace a broken exhaust valve caused by a sticking bucket. I replaced head gasket and the four o-rings and the cylinder base gasket but reused the 8 copper washers that looked good to me. Now at 100k miles it has never leaked a bit on the top end but the cylinder base gasket has seeped a bit of oil off and on.
Put a new head gasket on a CM400A years ago and didn't replace the cylinder base gasket and it too leaked a bit of oil off and on. :dunno_black: Damned if you do and damned if you don't I guess. :icon_lol:
Some designs just cause base gasket leaks. Or some manufacturing processes, or some flaws in material I guess. The GR650 is known for having base gasket leaks. I am going to do 2 of the 3 motors I got. Hopefully they dont spring leaks after that, and hope the third one tha tlooks fine doesn't either.
But if you leak oil from somewhere and you feel a loss in power due to that, I'd say you've lost enough oil to ruin the motor.
Cool.
Buddha.
So today I checked the oil level to see how much oil I lost and I found something interesting. So first of all, I didn't lose much oil at all, the oil level reads right below the "full" line, so it still has plenty of oil... here is the weird thing though. I am running full synthetic royal purple, which is a bright purple colored oil. After all the work and tuning and several hours of running in my driveway when I checked the oil it was still that bright purple color. But after riding 33 miles on the highway and having this incident occur... the oil is now black. I am not sure if this indicates something or not, but it strikes me as really odd. I have changed oil in cars before where the oil has been run for 3000+ miles and it still comes out golden. Idk, what do you guys think? Does this tell you anything?
Quote from: The Buddha on November 26, 2014, 08:03:44 PM
I've owned 17 GS'es, rebuilt 0 of em. I've replaced the whole lump in a few of em and in some cases even swapped in a GR650 motor, I would really look for a motor.
Cool.
Buddha.
+1 Have rebuilt many engines over the years...the big question should be "value". If the bike is worth something yes rebuild the engine. If it's a $1500 bike you will put too much into a rebuild to make it worth the effort. Find a good used engine. You will be money ahead and back on the road with a lot less work.
OK al lI can say is, if you are able to ride it now, in spite of it leaking like the exxon valdez, and you donthave a loss in power, OK fine open up an replace the base gasket. If you didn't take the rings etc etc off, you can change the head and base gaskets and not have to buy rings and hone it and what not.
The oil turning black, could be due to the blow by, which of course also causes it to blow base gasket, if your vent was bad.
You probably cant take junk in thorugh a leaking base gasket to turn the oil black.
Of course being you, I'll bet you replace all the upper end, and much of the lower end as well as 1/2 the parts in the vehicles you will be using to go to the store to buy parts for this thing.
Oh, you can buy some of it online, so you need to rebuild your computer as well.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on November 28, 2014, 12:47:24 PM
OK al lI can say is, if you are able to ride it now, in spite of it leaking like the exxon valdez, and you donthave a loss in power, OK fine open up an replace the base gasket. If you didn't take the rings etc etc off, you can change the head and base gaskets and not have to buy rings and hone it and what not.
The oil turning black, could be due to the blow by, which of course also causes it to blow base gasket, if your vent was bad.
You probably cant take junk in thorugh a leaking base gasket to turn the oil black.
Of course being you, I'll bet you replace all the upper end, and much of the lower end as well as 1/2 the parts in the vehicles you will be using to go to the store to buy parts for this thing.
Oh, you can buy some of it online, so you need to rebuild your computer as well.
Cool.
Buddha.
That sounds a bit harsh... Buddha listen, I have to take the engine off the bike whether I am replacing it or rebuilding it. There is no harm in taking it apart to just to see what was up inside. If the engine looks f'd then I will replace it, I have already been pricing them on ebay. But before I do that, I am going to tear that engine down to see if it is rebuildable.
And if I do decide to rebuild it, it won't be to save money, it will be because I *want to rebuild it. I have never rebuilt an engine before and it sounds like an interesting challenge.
As far as my parts running vehicle goes lol... I ride a bicycle. I live in the SF bay area I don't need a car, I own 3 bicycles a broken motorcycle and no car (I have a zip car membership though). And my work is 2 miles from my house so my motorcycle being broken down for another 6 months is not going to affect my life much... well other than I don't get to ride a motorcycle for fun. But wrenching on motorcycles is fun too. The bike itself is the hobby, whether I am riding it or working on it. Of course one day I hope to be riding it more than working on it, but right now I am not sweating it.
And about computers... I am a computer engineer, I work with computers everyday. I have built hundreds of computers in my life, now a days most of which are custom servers. This is why for my personal computer I use a Macbook Pro. This thing always works. :cheers:
Ah ha, that esplains a lot.
Software engineers make the second best in any field there is. Behind the forfessionals in that field.
Who makes the best motorcycle mechanics. Professional motorcycle mechanics of course. Second best = software engineers.
Best car mech's = professional car mech's. Second best = software engineers.
Best audio repair guys = audio tech's. Second best = Software engineers.
Best brain surgeons = brain surgeons. second best = software engineers.
Dont worry, I am a card carrying member of the group.
Why ?
Easy. We can google and you tube and search stuff all day for anything we like.
So brain surgery, pfffft, piece of cake. Take 2 of these and come by tomorow and I'll be ready to cut your head open.
Anyway you can do gaskets, it will be the cheapest option. Maybe do rings and hone the walls etc, hand fit over sized pistons/rings if needed. or just new rings after a light hone. I did that on the MZ this year. yet to fit it back together though. It has a 102 mm piston with a 12.5:1 that the clown that had it before me didn't know. So he didn't even tell me.
Cool.
Buddha.
Yeah - don't listen to Buddha - too much.
It seems that the ability to work on bikes is being lost, very very few people who buy a new street bike today could be bothered to rebuild it. I would think twice and I've been working on cars for decades (but bikes for less). The new electrical systems are very sophisticated and you need some pretty expensive tools to diagnose and tune new bikes etc.
That said there is always a LOT that you can still do and rebuilding a simple carb type engine is a great way to get comfortable and at ease with bikes in general.
I rebuilt my engine as the PO had let it run low on oil and damaged the crank bearings as well as some gorilla mechanic type broken/stripped bolts here and there , I replaced the crank bearings and oil pressure is now great and have done about 10K miles on the motor. I did do the maths before and in the end it cost me about double the cost of a second hand engine to get all the parts plus probably 40 hours of work, but I had a blast doing it, screwed a few things up, and learned a lot and have that old feeling that we don't seem to see much these days - Pride (uh-oh doesn't that come before a fall.....) when I ride her and she purs along nicely.
Economically its the wrong option - but I'd go ahead and do it anyway.
WRT the oil - driveway running and highway running is very different, Highway will blacken it much quicker. However mine is standard oil and it stays pretty clean for a few thousand KM's. Possibly bad compression and carbon betting parts the rings?
If yo need any help with the rebuild - just shout.
Brett
Quote from: The Buddha on November 28, 2014, 01:34:19 PM..................................Anyway you can do gaskets, it will be the cheapest option. Maybe do rings and hone the walls etc, hand fit over sized pistons/rings if needed. or just new rings after a light hone......................
Cool.
Buddha.
On an engine with only 2400 miles on it? Or maybe the odometer turned over and it really has 102,400 miles on it, we never know for sure on an older used bike. I'd get a gauge and check compression on it to get some indication of the general condition of it before tearing it down.
2400 miles - I didn't remmeber that. Well you check ring end gap in the chamber they will be coming out of. Suzuki has sucky tolerances, it may be too big to be fitted back in by any sane mechanic.
That blowby causing oil black = its loose fitting, if it indeed is blow by that caused it.
Cool.
Buddha.
All petty arguement aside...
If all the dang motor needs is a base gasket.. IROAN (Inspect and Replace Only As Necessary.)
No sense in replacing a whole engine just because of a base gasket failure.
Here is what would be my plan of attack: replace the base & head gasket. If she's an oil burner, throw some new rings at it, and give the bores a quick hone.
Give the head a quick look over, check valve clearance and adjust if needed.
DONE.
It has 2400 miles, but that dont mean squat with suzuki's tolerances being treated as a mere suggestion.
I'd be inclined to measure it, and maybe fit new rings, but its possible that the thing was loose from the factory. The thing may not take a stock ring with in specs even if it had 0 miles. It should be measured, and that should determine if you need the 1/2 mm over set. You're not supposed to fit 1/2 mm over ring in a stock piston set, only 1/4 mm max, which is not available. What a load of BS. My old school mechanic suggested to me that 1/2 mm hand fitted ring is useable in case of bigger bores (what is big - no clue) but a GS is 74mm, probably big enough IMHO, the contect he was using it was in the 102mm in my MZ.
Anyway, measure the bore, it may be fubar already, cos it wasn't that much better when new.
Cool.
Buddha.
Geeeez, talk about making a simple job difficult. You say `blown` Have you actually seen the gasket? Are you sure its not just weeping? The base gasket sees no compression, therefore there is no pressure behind it to `blow` it.
GS5 needs the headbolts re-tourqing at the shakedown, its specified in the service schedule FFS. If it doesn't get done the base gasket weeps..THEY ARE FAMOUS FOR IT!!
If you took it to a pro and were told....blah blah blah..new......2400miles??.....blah blah blah......
new base gasket.....blah blah blah......rebore......new rings...blah blah blah then started a thread about it in here there would be 100 posts all saying the same thing........HE IS TALKING CRAP AND TRYING TO RIP YOU OFF!!
If some people in here actually tried to make a living servicing and repairing bikes they would never see a customer return and starve to death in a frickin month :cookoo:
Check the torque on the headbolts....or do it the hard way and risk some even bigger problems.........your call.
^^^ The man makes a good point..
Re torque the head bolts and see what happens.. If it stops the leak: Battle Won!
Just how much oil does it leak? lots of 4 strokes weep a little oil around the base gasket. My wheeler weeps alot of oil around the base gasket, I just keep tabs on the oil level and drive it.. It doesnt really bother me much at all. Every not and then I take some degreaser after it.
Sledge - I bought a 1983 Tempter (even looks like a GS motor) that had 5k miles in 2010. It had a base gasket leak. Its sorta prone to that. I torqued the head bolts etc etc. I could have torqued the daylights out of it, but I was going to check if it had a defect.
Anyway, its possible that the thing could just be torqued. So its worth a shot.
But I also have not torqued it on many GS'es and never had a leak. I've had ultra low mile bikes in my past.
But it may do the trick.
Cool.
buddha.