I am replacing the Kokusan ignition module (no longer available and not worth $450) on my 2002 GS 500 with a breaker point ignition system. It is almost complete. But I can't find what full advance timing should be? Also wondering if the Kokusan did anything else other than control advance and retard timing? Thanks for the help, ECO.USA
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=64362.msg766352#msg766352
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Eco, why not just find a used one off of eBay? They are definitely around for less than $450.
Just curious, carry on.
+1 Rich
I have already tried the EBAY route for ignition parts. Got parts just as bad as the ones I already had. Thanks for the advance timing information. Now I have to figure out how to make the centrifugal advance unit go for more advance.
GS black boxes are nearly indestructible. I dont think you got 2 bad ones, something else is off.
BTW There is a damn transistor in the bloody box. You lose that - 99% of bad boxes have those go. I replaced it on a MZ 660 (yamaha motor) , Yamaha xs650, virago 535 (not really I slapped a virago 750/920 ignition box in the 535) - see a pattern here - yea, All yammies.
Anyway - I'd take a crack at repairing the box, or look else where for the issue.
What are the symptoms.
Cool.
Buddha.
Made some headway getting the centrifugal advance unit to get to 40 degrees BTDC by grinding the stops a little. Also got the condensers (capacitors) mounted on a bracket attached to the coil bolt so that they can be connected to the breaker point wire. I plan to use the stock coils with non resistor spark plug caps. That is really all there is to it. Why have the extra complication?
I have no interest in running another Asian transistor box ignition. No way to get to any components to tell if they are good or not. At least, with breaker points, I can see the quality of all components within 5 minutes, and can replace all that might wear out for $30 at any NAPA store.
OOPS! Missed your question about symptoms. With the first system, it would idle fine for a few seconds, then fire backward stopping the engine (like it was firing randomly). Replaced the pickups with EBAY item, wouldn't run past idle. Decided to try new components, found spark box unavailable except for more used which I already have. Have checked compression (150), cam timing (spot on), carbs clean, balanced and rubbers to the head sealed with crankcase sealer to the head. Did I miss something??
Got closer to first start up with point ignition. All hooked up and timed to left coil, should have the right coil ready by tomorrow. That should be it, then try to start for the first time, never before in history!!!!
EUREKA MOMENT: First start up of breaker point ignition (eliminating no longer available ignition module) 2002 and earlier GS 500. Put a little shot of fuel in each spark plug hole and she fired up on the second touch!!! Sounded strong, idle way faster than the module ignition did. Probably have a "too much advance too soon situation." The centrifugal advance was originally for a cam drive 1/2 crank speed. GS 500 drives on the crank shaft 100% crank speed! Think I need to lighten the weights about 50%. Very happy to hear it run again! It's been over a month in development.http://gstwins.com/gsboard/Smileys/New_Smile/woohoo.gif
I did the same with a 5 liter 75 Mustang II I bought new and the module went out soon after it was off warranty. Went to the junk yard and pulled the distributer out of a Ford that was wrecked and it ran good for a few more years. Total cost for the distributer was $10 and it had new points and condenser in it.
EXACTLY JACK!!
The question is: "do I pay $476 for an ignition module that is "no longer available at any price?" Or do I do what you did and get quicker starting, harder hitting (amperage wise) ignition that, if it ever stops working, can be made to work again, in a matter of minutes. Then spend the other $400+ saved on wild debauchery!!
I can understand you doing the work for kicks and the sense of achievement but to say its the best and the only option would be something else. Ok.... Used GS5 bits here are dirt cheap, I would have bought this myself and mailed it over to you if you had put the call out.
Doubt it would have come to more than about $15-20 :thumb:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUZUKI-GS500-CDI-UNIT-2002/161523357649?_trksid=p2141725.c100204.m3164&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140407115239%26meid%3D8bafec5206424937809328c5a88bc6bd%26pid%3D100204%26prg%3D20140407115239%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D400175276560 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUZUKI-GS500-CDI-UNIT-2002/161523357649?_trksid=p2141725.c100204.m3164&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140407115239%26meid%3D8bafec5206424937809328c5a88bc6bd%26pid%3D100204%26prg%3D20140407115239%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D400175276560)
Had point ignition on a few old moto engines as well as a. P19. A tad more for maintenance, but likedbit. It was pretty simple, and usually could be repaired with a file when needed
Quote from: eco.usa on December 17, 2014, 09:24:12 PM
OOPS! Missed your question about symptoms. With the first system, it would idle fine for a few seconds, then fire backward stopping the engine (like it was firing randomly). Replaced the pickups with EBAY item, wouldn't run past idle. Decided to try new components, found spark box unavailable except for more used which I already have. Have checked compression (150), cam timing (spot on), carbs clean, balanced and rubbers to the head sealed with crankcase sealer to the head. Did I miss something??
Runs fine a few seconds and back fire and stall could be trigger coils. Could also be a bad ground, or a plethora of bad connections. Did it start right back up ? Or did it have to cool down before it would restart ?
Not running past idle with the second pickup - OK did you have it idle for 10-20 mins - like fully up to temp and it didn't make a difference, ecxept when you tried to rev it ? If so - This doesn't sound like its pickup, but it sounds like carb or fuel flow. If you didn't run it to fully hot, then You probably should.
You may well have a bad ignitor box, but there is $5 worth of parts in that ignitor, for those who like to check and fix stuff on the cheap - yea the ignitor is the ticket.
OK there is a IC chip in the thing, if that goes, I think you're screwed, but it controls the advance curve and only that. So if the bike idles, but when you rev it it runs worse and worse, that = advance curve is gone. It will rev up a bit, but get worse as it revs, by the time you get 2500 rpm, you wont get it burning right to really even rev more. It will burn into the exhaust, like the timing is far too retarded. I cant expalin. But you replace a 42 degree advance with a 10 degree you'd easily see/feel/hear it.
Cool.
Buddha.
BUDDHA,
I think you hit the nail on the head with the "advance part of the spark box failing" diagnosis.
It did start back up after kicking backward and stopping. I did get it up to full operating temp. It's amazing how long that takes. By the time you get it up to temp, you could have walked there.
But as far as continuing with that type of system? There is no performance advantage to the spark box, it is just simulating breaker point pulses and doing advance. And you trust that it is doing the right job but there is no way to verify. With real points I can verify.
You lost the advance curve microchip - OK easy, a Blackbox off ebay will work. The advance curve chip as far as I have been opning these - back to 2003 I have never seen one die. In fact On the crackhead designed yamaha ignitors, I lose a switching transistor but never a micro. Its a one in a billion even IMHO.
I crack open receivers and CD players and amps in the last 5 years and, these will make the innards of the ignitor box look like a baby's toy - there is 1 case of it blown out I have ever seen.
Its a Toshiba TC9467 that dies because the biasing resistor fitted to it in the carver MXR 900/130/150/2000 is not adequate. I bought a new one and replaced it in 2011/2012, cost me $25. However I have since figured out these chips are in most things that have a big complex LED display. I yanked a few out of dead CD players.
OK you may have had a bad resistor or something in that ignitor box too, anyway a new ignitor will sort out the problem.
This is my take on the system in the GS.
The trigger coils - good for 30-40K miles, more if you run it on short rides. I think. I ran mine on 40 mile 1 way commutes and it died @ 35k with what is classic insulation thermal breakdown. If they cool down they work better, so my assumption is that if they keep cooling down often they work longer. So they work longer with short rides. Maybe wrong - I dunno.
The ignitor box - Nearly indestructible unless there is a bad component as it left the factory. Or if it was chewed by a dog. Dont laugh, I once worked on one that was chewed by a dog. The wiring harness was eaten through, and wires at the box were nearly shredded. It was almost like the dog went, I dont have opposable thumbs, so how can I inflict the most damage to this bike. Oh, yea these teeth ... OK let me eat this wiring thing ,oh, this black thing, looks like the most important, let me start there.
I dont think you're going to get better than either of these with points.
Cool.
Buddha.
And I would like both dead black boxes if you're not going that route. I need to crack one of these open. And yes 3 days in acetone would do it. I have never been inside one.
The time I was fixing my MZ660, I was working on a denon 3600. Oddly they were both $350 or so. I went, huh, there is 4000 components in the denon and its $350, and there is 6 in the MZ and its also 350. LOL.
BTW yamaha helps us out by only slathering like a litle dab of goop on it and tossing it out the door. That way you find bad components in 2 seconds.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: eco.usa on December 17, 2014, 09:05:23 PM
Made some headway getting the centrifugal advance unit to get to 40 degrees BTDC by grinding the stops a little. Also got the condensers (capacitors) mounted on a bracket attached to the coil bolt so that they can be connected to the breaker point wire. I plan to use the stock coils with non resistor spark plug caps. That is really all there is to it. Why have the extra complication?
I have no interest in running another Asian transistor box ignition. No way to get to any components to tell if they are good or not. At least, with breaker points, I can see the quality of all components within 5 minutes, and can replace all that might wear out for $30 at any NAPA store.
Agree wholeheartedly with you - ran across a couple bad ignition modules buying used online, needed one to carry as a spare on long trips. Much prefer actual breaker points, don't mind the maintenance. Black boxes are for people with clean hands that stay clean.
Did the swap on a Triumph Spitfire when the Lucas box died - ran fine for years afterwards, easy to maintain.
The stock gs ign module is sealed in rubber epoxy, no provision for cooling except two large embedded aluminum heat sinks which obviously get no airflow. Probably significant heat buildup, internally, long trip, hot days ... ?
Somebody should reverse engineer these things - how hard would it be ? Albeit surface mount devices (SMD), multi layered apparently. Looked online for aftermarket some years ago, didn't see much.
These dont get hot. They are encased in rubber cement and that is to keep the solder joints from vibrating themselves loose.
Cool.
Buddha.
Got my EBAY GS 450 centrifugal advance unit today. Seems to be a perfect match with the GS 500 crank end and key! It is has a reluctor for electronic ignition triggering which I will have to fashion into a breaker point triggering cam. Should be easy to do. Also have to build the 2nd prototype to match new cam diameter.
My cousin worked on electronic equipment for the U.S. Navy and was in charge of White House Secret Service communication systems. He says "solid state electronic devices are going to fail. It could fail when new or in 20 years, but failure is going to happen." I would rather have the reliable, easy to maintain, trouble shoot, repair and tune breaker point system (which I have seen outperform the electronic box in serious competition) and save hundreds of $$$ in the bargain.
In 1985 I got a '72 dodge charger with points. For twenty years people told me to put electronic ignition in it. I drove it until a tree fell on it in about '05, then I sold it for $1000 (the same amount of money I gave for it) and it still ran just fine. I don't know what people's fascination with electronic ignition is. Since then I've lost one electronic ignition box in a 94 acura integra, it stranded my friend that was borrowing it out in the middle of nowhere. My current car has been fine, but ya never know when it's gonna leave you stranded. I'm just glad for the invention of cell phones to call for backup. :thumb:
I've seen points systems fail too. Ask anyone that has had a VW beetle. The real one, not the fake one.
You can maintain and replace them a lot and it will probably never fail, but by the time an electronic ignition fails, you'd have done that X 20 and spent more time and $$$ in the process.
Anyway eco.usa, your issue likely was not in the ignition - you never found for sure - or did you ?
Cool.
Buddha.
Budda, you are 100% correct about the Volkswagen conversion! I just compared prices again and things have CHANGED for the better! I also have a 62 VW fiberglass dune buggy with points and it is now only $50 from The Samba to convert to EI. $50 for the entire kit! That's amazing! A few years ago the conversion was $600 for new distributor, new coil (old coil wouldn't work with EI) and electronic ignition box. Now everything including condenser is in the same size package as the factory points!
Back then, $600 would buy a whole LOTTA points!
Now I gotta look into EFI for the buggy too! :thumb:
Oh wow, Yes I remember when it was several 100. @ $ 50 I'll try it too.
I honestly dont care one way or another, but I am not into re-engineering the wheel.
Cool.
Buddha.
Centrifugal advance from GS 450 has a larger hole for the bolt into the crank shaft. Guess I need to have a spacer tube made to have a tight fit around the crank end bolt.
Combine that work with having the reluctor (electronic ignition trigger arm) ground into a cam profile to actuate the breaker points. Good thing I got a friend with an old school machine shop.
Also wondering why there are 2 metal teeth or spurs extending toward the bolt head at that end of the GS 450 point cam shaft??
Is anybody else AMAZED by this thread?
Absolutely no criticism intended, but I have to say that in over 40 years learning about and restoring scores of bikes of all types, this is the first time I've ever heard of anyone wanting to go back from solid state ignition to points ignition.
Hey, don't get me wrong... I'm old-school as anyone, (whatever floats it), but still! :icon_eek:
Jools - yes, me too, though I probably dont get out much.
And at the end of it, I suspect his issue isn't in that ignition system in the first place.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Joolstacho on December 31, 2014, 02:25:36 AM
Is anybody else AMAZED by this thread?
Absolutely no criticism intended, but I have to say that in over 40 years learning about and restoring scores of bikes of all types, this is the first time I've ever heard of anyone wanting to go back from solid state ignition to points ignition.
Hey, don't get me wrong... I'm old-school as anyone, (whatever floats it), but still! :icon_eek:
If I'm honest, never seeing ignition points again would be too soon for me. I'm not crazy about carbs either though the technology has changed the world and thus deserves respect (not for bikes; I'm talking about toilets...). But points?! No. Solid state and beyond please.
Anyway, the arguing is dynamic enough to keep the thread interesting. Happy 2015 to all regardless of ignition tech.
Does the the fact that all OEMs are now gouging everyone on price for black boxes all over the vehicles? Or that even at $450 new per black box for the 2002 GS 500 are no longer available?
In my book, That is Suz saying "just go away, we don't want you."
As Gilda said: "Never tell an alligator bite my azz" Some of us don't have to fall into their $$ trap. All we need to do is light a fire in the combustion chamber at the right time. It's not High Tech. You mentioned that in a previous post Buddah, when you said there are tons of parts in one black box and less than 10 in the Suz but both are $450, WHY?
Quote from: The Buddha on December 23, 2014, 07:44:15 AM
And I would like both dead black boxes if you're not going that route. I need to crack one of these open. And yes 3 days in acetone would do it. I have never been inside one.
The time I was fixing my MZ660, I was working on a denon 3600. Oddly they were both $350 or so. I went, huh, there is 4000 components in the denon and its $350, and there is 6 in the MZ and its also 350. LOL.
BTW yamaha helps us out by only slathering like a litle dab of goop on it and tossing it out the door. That way you find bad components in 2 seconds.
Cool.
Buddha.
@ eco.usa - read my post - I presume this was the one.
Denon 3600 as much as it sounds like a vehicle is actually a receiver ... you know, picks up radio, and makes things loud, has a remote control and what not.
I think no one gets my analogies and references. And sarcasm as well. I should just plain quit doing that.
But then I'll have like 13 posts. Yea I know, quality, not just quantity OK OK I get it.
Cool.
Buddha.
Well, that's a shame... A Denon 3600 sounds just like a new bike my dad would want to buy. His current bike is only 720 pounds and that Denon 3600 sounds like a REEEAAALLL beast! :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Happy New Year!!!
No he should get a yamaha DSP 3090. Its a yamaha to boot. LOL.
Cool.
Buddha.
Question everything? Happy new year!
Any updates on points conversion? My 82 GS450 was a points bike (I think, I never had any issues with them so I never checked)
I believe both my 69 f100, and my73 super beetle were points ignition. I know the 48 plymouth was. I had to file the points to resurrect her. :icon_mrgreen:
Points ignition project is still happening. Lot more machine shop work needed now to get the Suzuki GS 450 centrifugal advance unit to do the triggering.
Also will make ignition timing adjustable to the degree for each cylinder separately and capable of firing 4 spark plug head which will speed up that lazy combustion chamber resulting in more HP at less timing advance (minus at least 7 degrees with 2 plugs per cylinder).
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on January 06, 2015, 01:40:26 AM
I believe both my 69 f100, and my73 super beetle were points ignition. I know the 48 plymouth was. I had to file the points to resurrect her. :icon_mrgreen:
I remember setting the gap with a match book cover.....
good times, good times, old times, old times...
This is the points set up from a KH250 triple.
(http://www.powerdynamo.biz/deu/systems/7163/types/7163_points.jpg)
Notoriously difficult to set up.........and don't even think about taking it out in the rain!!
First thing most owners did was junk the whole setup in favour of a Boyer-Bransden
Points ignition was unreliable and high maintenance with lots to go wrong, I don't miss it. Respect and kudos for what you are doing but I don't think its a step forward.
+1 sledge. Just looking at it gives me the creeps. Yes the VW beetle has one of "Distings" Thanks Cookie. Its now part of my everyday speech. I'm gonna order me a Disting for lunch now @ this podunk cafe.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on January 06, 2015, 10:10:51 PM
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on January 06, 2015, 01:40:26 AM
I believe both my 69 f100, and my73 super beetle were points ignition. I know the 48 plymouth was. I had to file the points to resurrect her. :icon_mrgreen:
I remember setting the gap with a match book cover.....good times, good times, old times, old times...
always kept a matchbook cover or a random business card on hand for this purpose
OK! You win! I put the original ignition back on today and found that if I covered the right carburetor half way with my hand, it picked up the throttle OK. Checked for leak in vacuum hose to petcock. no leak apparent. Guess i will try carb sex again tomorrow.
I still like the point system better than electronic BS, but my H-D system actually took 6 years to totally develop from concept to rock hard reliable. I can do it for the GS 500 in less time (now that I know what not to do) but it won't be instant.
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Disting indeed! .. ima copy Buddha and do the lunchtime Disting order, from the Asian sandwich shop lady, who offers 'free cok' with every sandwich over $5 ! .. you know. . Red can, white ribbon device/logo with curly writing. .. cok!
OK Thanks to the advice of Buddah my GS 500 is able to take throttle up again. The problem was in the carburetor end, not the ignition end. I don't know if this was the magic bullet or not, but we cleaned it in an ultrasonic tank this time. Also jacked the slide needle up with 3 small washers and richened the idle needles to 3 turns out.
I am going to take a break from developing the breaker point ignition system for now. (After 2 months of working on it, I need to take a break). I will get back into it when the muse hits me again.
You know what they say..... 90% of fuel problems are electrical; or is it the other way round? ;-)
Quote from: eco.usa on January 10, 2015, 11:27:15 AM
OK Thanks to the advice of Buddah my GS 500 is able to take throttle up again. The problem was in the carburetor end, not the ignition end. I don't know if this was the magic bullet or not, but we cleaned it in an ultrasonic tank this time. Also jacked the slide needle up with 3 small washers and richened the idle needles to 3 turns out.
With today's Chitty Fuel I would recommend adding 4 Oz of Marvel Mystery Oil/Sta-Bil
(yes that is a double dose) to a full tank of gas to any bike that is not going to be ridden for for a month or more. At one point not too long ago I had 7 bikes, all licensed and turn key ready to be ridden. Every time I added fuel to a tank I added MMO...because the bike would be parked, I would grab another and not ride the previous bike for what quite possibly could be a year later :dunno_black:
MMO and Battery Tenders are the only way to go, if you don't ride your bike weekly or have riding season where the bike will sit for extended periods :thumb:
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/ninja04.jpg)
The ignition module elimination kit looks like this (assuming the photo goes through). Definitely under $100
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