I just noticed today, that in one of the cylinders walls are kinda damaged pretty good... so what do? its not hugely gashed up, but its there. and the rings look fine? so I'm not sure how this happened.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/29auxl4.jpg)
so what should I do from here?
Honing may help. Ive had a few engines scored like this with decent rings, mine ran fine without doing anything to rectify scoring
Yeah honing, maybe oversized rings/pistons/.
If you don't mind me asking:
Do you use OEM air filters, or OEM equivalents, or lunchbox, maybe pods?
What kind of oil do you use?
Quote from: Atesz792 on December 22, 2014, 01:14:49 PM
Yeah honing, maybe oversized rings/pistons/.
If you don't mind me asking:
Do you use OEM air filters, or OEM equivalents, or lunchbox, maybe pods?
What kind of oil do you use?
I'm not exactly sure what the history is, but the lunchbox and the OEM air filter was in the bike. as far as oil, I'm not sure whats in it.. this is a project bike of mine, so history is pretty unknown. the valves went bad, so maybe this has something to do with it. I haven't even drained the oil yet.. so maybe there's some metal flakes hiding in it somewhere... it had to of been something pretty hard to knick up the cylinder walls, they aren't exactly "soft"
if it helps at all.. the scuffs are exactly over top of the intake side. the other side has the same exact scuffs like this, but not nearly as bad. and mostly towards the top.
You cant hone your way outta that. You have to bore it. Of course you can hone it till its clean, but likely you'd have an odd sized off spec inprecise cylinder with crazy differences in diameter. Honing is imprecise, its fine for surface clean up, but a hard firm bore tool works better.
.25 mm is the next size you can do, but make sure you can get pistons and rings in that bore size. Of course .5mm is the next size they sell for sure.
I dunno they sell .010 pistons for cars. That's .25mm. They dont for this stupid thing.
You're in any case gonna have to get the rings filed and end gapped and fitted.
Cool.
Buddha.
True buddha, a valid point there. A hone i had used before following a cylinder bore to etch the crosshatch pattern in the cylinder walls
Quote from: The Buddha on December 22, 2014, 02:21:22 PM
You cant hone your way outta that. You have to bore it. Of course you can hone it till its clean, but likely you'd have an odd sized off spec inprecise cylinder with crazy differences in diameter. Honing is imprecise, its fine for surface clean up, but a hard firm bore tool works better.
.25 mm is the next size you can do, but make sure you can get pistons and rings in that bore size. Of course .5mm is the next size they sell for sure.
I dunno they sell .010 pistons for cars. That's .25mm. They dont for this stupid thing.
You're in any case gonna have to get the rings filed and end gapped and fitted.
Cool.
Buddha.
great... more money....... I don't think a GS should cost this much.... :dunno_white:
He he ... dude a bore, piston, ring job on anything is 200-300 per cyl. That is 4-600 on the GS. The bigger the cyl the more it costs too. Like a 100 mm cyl is likely to cost 10-30% more than a 50mm. My MZ 102 mm bore just about set me back 250 or so just for the cyl, piston, rings and valve/head work. The genius that worked on it before me bored it to 102mm put a 12.5 piston in it, and well, the bozo before the bozo that sold it to me I guess, and he happily sold it to bozo who sold it to me bozo#3 and never told me. I blow it up running regular gas in it, Thankfully I put a tiny crack in the piston and no other damage.
A whole GS is cheaper per tonnage LOL, with semi runners going for barely more than that. Used crap that needs some work is cheaper on average, precisely becuase 99% of the population cant lift a wrench to save their life. Something with carb trouble that the seller is sure could be electrical, or maybe even motor = dirt cheap. So find someone who says that on Craigslist and go snatch it up cheap, they need to pay christmas bills.
Cool.
Buddha.
Indeed :icon_confused:
the issue I'm having here is that the craigslist ideal would work, if I live ANYWHERE else other then CFL. for a really bad beat up GS, that doesn't even run, you're looking at like 800 dollars, and a lung. ill look around.. see what can be done.
Quote from: J_Walker on December 23, 2014, 10:57:11 AM
the issue I'm having here is that the craigslist ideal would work, if I live ANYWHERE else other then CFL. for a really bad beat up GS, that doesn't even run, you're looking at like 800 dollars, and a lung. ill look around.. see what can be done.
NC isn't much better. Find a friend in Minnesota.
But hey the drop in gas $$$ means you can run there with a small pickup truck for a few 100.
Now there is a bunch of cool audio sheite in FL I have seen in the last few weeks. Let me see if in this area GS is around for cheap.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on December 23, 2014, 02:04:59 PM
Quote from: J_Walker on December 23, 2014, 10:57:11 AM
the issue I'm having here is that the craigslist ideal would work, if I live ANYWHERE else other then CFL. for a really bad beat up GS, that doesn't even run, you're looking at like 800 dollars, and a lung. ill look around.. see what can be done.
NC isn't much better. Find a friend in Minnesota.
But hey the drop in gas $$$ means you can run there with a small pickup truck for a few 100.
Now there is a bunch of cool audio sheite in FL I have seen in the last few weeks. Let me see if in this area GS is around for cheap.
Cool.
Buddha.
that's because half the audio stuff is stolen, and trying to be re-sold... :nono: :oops: :icon_twisted:
Bah, it'll buff out. Just ride it till ya can't ride it no more.
Quote from: Kijona on December 23, 2014, 07:56:34 PM
Bah, it'll buff out. Just ride it till ya can't ride it no more.
erm at some of these price quotes... I might just end up doing that...
J Walker,
If you can't find a used engine...
I would try honing it...takes some measurements after to be sure you are in spec...there is some room there (in the spec). Put new rings in if the pistons look okay. If they are scored you should replace them.
You'll have a few hundred in.
Dennis
Quote from: J_Walker on December 23, 2014, 02:47:03 PM
that's because half the audio stuff is stolen, and trying to be re-sold... :nono: :oops: :icon_twisted:
That car crap. I'm talking house crap.
Cool.
Buddha.
Uh oh i forsee a random buddha rant coming soon lol
J walker,
I got a set of cylinders and pistons from an 11,000mi engine that tossed a valve shim. Speak up if you want em.. just junk in my garage otherwise.
Otherwise, give that bore a quick hone and toss her back together with some rings, and run it. You'll never know the difference.
I've run stuff that looks worse than that.
Quote from: The_Paragon on December 26, 2014, 01:43:50 PM
J walker,
I got a set of cylinders and pistons from an 11,000mi engine that tossed a valve shim. Speak up if you want em.. just junk in my garage otherwise.
Otherwise, give that bore a quick hone and toss her back together with some rings, and run it. You'll never know the difference.
I've run stuff that looks worse than that.
I've been shopping around for a honing tools. but ill keep that offer open.. lol
Quote from: J_Walker on December 22, 2014, 01:00:59 PM
I just noticed today, that in one of the cylinders walls are kinda damaged pretty good... so what do? its not hugely gashed up, but its there. and the rings look fine? so I'm not sure how this happened.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/29auxl4.jpg)
so what should I do from here?
ebay some jugs in better condition.
Hone that out?
You are joking...right?
By the time you get rid of those scratches you will be left with a cylinder that's about as true as the inside of a toilet roll!
Quote from: sledge on December 27, 2014, 09:31:24 AM
Hone that out?
You are joking...right?
By the time you get rid of those scratches you will be left with a cylinder that's about as true as the inside of a toilet roll!
I took it as..hone for the cross hatch marks that help the new rings seat and also retain oil and just leave the gouges.
(http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0996b43f/80/21/21/26/medium/0996b43f80212126.gif)
Quote from: sledge on December 27, 2014, 09:31:24 AM
Hone that out?
You are joking...right?
By the time you get rid of those scratches you will be left with a cylinder that's about as true as the inside of a toilet roll!
I think you're taking the comment out of context. The OP said he can't find a donor engine anywhere near him. So what's the choice? I doubt he can clean that out completely with a hone, and I wouldn't do it myself...particularly all the way (eliminating scratches completely). Whether the honing would make it out of round is debatable, because you can't remove much material with a hone. Cylinder wear is probably more out than what a hone would do. That is because I wouldn't sit in there with a hone until those scratches were completely gone...but you tend to take every post literally so I will try and be "clearer" in the future. I can't guarantee that I might not say a word or two that you can pick apart, but I will try my best :o
Dennis, last time I got GS5 rebored it cost me £125. That was for the M/C work inc honing and two new (non OEM) +0.25mm pots and ring sets. That's less than 200 of your bucks. I cant believe its going to cost much more on your side of the pond.
Whats his choice??.......If he wants it doing PROPERLY......can I suggest he actually visits a reconditioning shop, maybe 2 or 3 of them and gets a quote from someone who is familiar with work of this nature and actually capable of doing it......then when he has the price then he can consider his options and make his choice :thumb:
Quote from: sledge on December 27, 2014, 11:28:55 AM
Dennis, last time I got GS5 rebored it cost me £125. That was for the M/C work inc honing and two new (non OEM) +0.25mm pots and ring sets. That's less than 200 of your bucks. I cant believe its going to cost much more on your side of the pond.
Whats his choice??.......If he wants it doing PROPERLY......can I suggest he actually visits a reconditioning shop, maybe 2 or 3 of them and gets a quote from someone who is familiar with work of this nature and actually capable of doing it......then when he has the price then he can consider his options and make his choice :thumb:
I was getting quotes. but lots of the shops I tried to call earlier in the thread - well holiday season and all.
what is the best route for piston rings?
I wanna do it right - but at the same time, I don't wanna drop a decent hunk of cash for 2 cylinders...
edit: regarding fuel lines, other then pipe clamps being tighten down to much and breaking the little plastic connectors. are pipe clamps pretty safe over all to use? most of my hose clips have either fallen off and gotten lost, or aren't very tight any more. plus im replacing all the tubing, just because its cheap and my stuff is pretty dried out and crusty.. even for an 2005 0_o
It's a slippery slope on these bikes. Unless you love it to death, how much do you spend on it...because you know you'll never get it back. A donor engine would be the easiest and the cheapest IMO. But OP says he can't find any where he is. It also sounds like he doesn't have a ton of cash.
Boring (not sure you can even do that with a GS), rings and likely new pistons and a gasket set...you have $400+ if you do the mechanical work yourself. Then you have the head off and the valves don't look great...headwork and parts...another $200+ maybe $300...unless you go on the cheap and just lap the valves...
Honestly, I wouldn't go down this path at all with a GS...if I couldn't find an engine I'd part it out and look for another bike.
I look at that scoring and to me, toss it...but trying to give the OP a different path. Will it work...maybe...but he doesn't have a choice from what he's saying.
Quote from: dennisgb on December 27, 2014, 01:22:09 PM
It's a slippery slope on these bikes. Unless you love it to death, how much do you spend on it...because you know you'll never get it back. A donor engine would be the easiest and the cheapest IMO. But OP says he can't find any where he is. It also sounds like he doesn't have a ton of cash.
Boring (not sure you can even do that with a GS), rings and likely new pistons and a gasket set...you have $400+ if you do the mechanical work yourself. Then you have the head off and the valves don't look great...headwork and parts...another $200+ maybe $300...unless you go on the cheap and just lap the valves...
Honestly, I wouldn't go down this path at all with a GS...if I couldn't find an engine I'd part it out and look for another bike.
I look at that scoring and to me, toss it...but trying to give the OP a different path. Will it work...maybe...but he doesn't have a choice from what he's saying.
I already have a donor head, new valves, and all that jazz, I haven't put it all together yet.. and honestly, other then a cracked exhaust valve. and ruined valve seat. as far as that, the bike ran fine.. so i dunno yet. I'm just keeping an open mind.
I'm going to take a shot at this and be as honest as possible.
If you hone the existing cylinder (the one in your first picture), and do the rings, it's a crap shoot on what the results will be. Also, it might possibly deteriorate more in a short amount of time.
There are a lot of issues with the scoring in the cylinder that make it a bad choice.
(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a414/dennisgb1/Scoring_zps285b9b19.jpg) (http://s1033.photobucket.com/user/dennisgb1/media/Scoring_zps285b9b19.jpg.html)
The score marks that I outlined here are almost the length of the stroke. Proper honing will not clean these up, because although it is possible to hone bore a cylinder it isn't the recommended way to do it. If you do a normal cross hatch honing, the marks will still be there to some degree. The result is loss of compression and likely oil leaking by the rings and burning. Worst case is one of the ring gaps end up on a score mark and then it will for sure burn oil and lose compression.
The right way to do this is to have the cylinders bored to the next size and put oversized pistons and rings in.
I learned a long time ago that time is money...if you have it apart do it right.
If you hone and spend the money on new rings and gaskets...then spend the time to assemble it, and it turns out bad, you are out a lot more than if you do it right the first time...unless of course you just pitch it. If you go back and bore it then you lost the money and time from the first rebuild.
Take the cylinder to a reputable shop and ask them what they think.
I don't think Dennis has actually been inside a GS5 yet but let me assure you from past experience they can be rebored by at least +0.25mm by some one who knows what they are doing as easily as any other bike!
Every time I have had a rebore and that includes not just GS5s the shop has supplied the oversize pots and rings as part of the job :thumb: Of course they don't say Suzuki on the box but non OEM are a lot cheaper, up to 50% less and its never been a problem :thumb:
Dennis says $400 plus.....hmmm!!.......... I am in the UK and it costs the equivalent of half that here :dunno_black:
Incidentally......go straight to the machine shop. Dealers and mechanics will quite happily take the job on but they will send them to the someone else and add their cut.
Quote from: sledge on December 27, 2014, 11:08:22 PM
I don't think Dennis has actually been inside a GS5 yet but let me assure you from past experience they can be rebored by at least +0.25mm by some one who knows what they are doing as easily as any other bike!
Every time I have had a rebore and that includes not just GS5s the shop has supplied the oversize pots and rings as part of the job :thumb: Of course they don't say Suzuki on the box but non OEM are a lot cheaper, up to 50% less and its never been a problem :thumb:
Dennis says $400 plus.....hmmm!!.......... I am in the UK and it costs the equivalent of half that here :dunno_black:
No I haven't been inside a GS, but I have been inside hundreds of other engines. Many Japanese engines have chrome or coated aluminum cylinders that can't be rebored...or at least shouldn't be. That's why I made that comment. I like how you point that out as if I have never been inside of an engine...I've been working on engines for 45 years...how long have you been involved? What is your background that makes you so much smarter than everyone else?
$400 + is with parts...not just the rebore. You can do it cheaper if you use aftermarket parts and find the cheapest shop...but I don't use aftermarket parts or bad shops...it isn't worth it in the end to save $100.
Dennis, Dennis Dennis.
Wind your neck in old son.
It don't matter how many engines you have been into in the past, we are talking about the GS5 and you (so far) haven't been into a single one.
While you are banging on about...maybe it cant be rebore??, maybe its coated??...let me, as someone who HAS been into a GS5 engine put you right....Its NOT plated or coated with chrome or nikasil or SCEM its good old cast iron and there is enough meat there to allow for at least one rebore....... at +0.25mm.
The O/P is on a budget, throwing random prices at him will do nothing except scare him and if you are going to give him "quotes" without doing the job yourself do him a favour and say if it includes OEM parts or not......You may want to go OEM every time but not everyone else does and we don't know how you work. Also remind him that Suzuki don't manufacture their own pistons but subcon them out to other companies, who sell the same thing direct to the public in a different box for far less than Suzuki do and that its possible he is getting the same thing without giving Suzuki and the dealer a cut.
I will point out though after all the waffling on you have done......you ultimately came to the same answer as me....."take it to a pro" so respect is due.....however it only took me 2 lines to make the point :thumb:
I will bow to you're superior talent and knowledge when you answer the question.
How long have you actually been working on anything mechanical?
I have 45 years and 40 as a mechanical engineer...you sound like a kid...with your senseless and continuous comebacks with little substance.
Trying to make yourself sound superior...it's pretty childish.
Hide behind your keyboard...seen it a hundred times before.
There is one on every forum on the web...you are at the top.
You have given the OP a lot of great information Sledge...ripping me and quoting Euro prices...I hope he's over there so you can "show" him who to take it to :o
Dennis......I think you could be quite an interesting guy to talk with....IF.....it wasn't for your ego.
You say I try to sound superior?......I guess it must come naturally to you then :D
Here is a tip.....why don't you forget about constantly banging on about your background, I doubt anyone is really interested and instead try to fit in with the rest of the forum rather than expecting the rest of the forum to fit in with you. Talk to people on their level rather than yours and you might find yourself getting on with people a bit better :thumb:
I am not one for talking about my job, background experience, qualifications etc......I simply don't feel I have anything to prove and I am nowhere near insecure enough to have to rely on that sort of thing to reinforce my comments and arguments, nor am I naïve enough to think I am the only person in here with more than a basic understanding of engineering principles and practice.
A few days ago you openly stated that some of the people in here were rude and offensive and that you were not going to bother with this forum anymore and leave yet, here you are still.......that more than anything else tells me what sort of person you are Dennis :D :D :D
Dennis
Here is an ad for a typical UK rebore shop and the prices they charge....
http://www.kpmotosolutions.com/precisionreboring.htm (http://www.kpmotosolutions.com/precisionreboring.htm)
£48 to do a twin.......... about $75?
Going off your figures why does it cost significantly more over there?????
Your moniker "Motorcycle God" tells it all.
An arrogant forum troll who doesn't even own a motorcycle that runs.
3500 posts and nary a picture of a bike you claim to be yours.
Maybe you should go out to your leaky shed and take the tarp off that rusty bucket of bolts and take a picture.
You also can't tell us the experience that makes you an expert for fear of being ripped a new one.
Being a "Word Smith" doesn't make you an expert. It just shows how small you really are.
Every post from you has been a personal attack...you think not...but it's obvious.
I bow to the mighty "Motorcycle God" :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
Quote from: sledge on December 28, 2014, 03:46:10 PM
Dennis
Here is an ad for a typical UK rebore shop and the prices they charge....
http://www.kpmotosolutions.com/precisionreboring.htm (http://www.kpmotosolutions.com/precisionreboring.htm)
£48 to do a twin.......... about $75?
Going off your figures why does it cost significantly more over there?????
I wouldn't trust this shop with a lawn mower engine. Oldest looking bunch of dirty crap equipment I've ever seen.
You proved you could search the web and find the cheapest place on the planet...it's your forte...your search engine.
Proves nothing.
Edit: Most reputable shops do not post prices. You need to know what your working on...every engine and situation is different.
Ahem... Used pistons and cylinders here still for sale.
Cheaper than you can mess around boring and buying new pistons for..
When in doubt, ask a really cute chick with lots of brains what they think...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1bm-bJvZJ8
I am not one for talking about my job, background experience, qualifications etc......I simply don't feel I have anything to prove and I am nowhere near insecure enough to have to rely on that sort of thing to reinforce my comments and arguments
Post from Sledge,
...my background is industrial not automotive and as such its doubtful you would be familiar with my side of things. This is a link to the website of my company who I have worked for since leaving school 23 yrs ago, it will give you an idea of the type of things I get involved with.
http://www.dowdingandmills.com/index.htm
The link is dead because the company is now Sulzer Dowding & Mills.
Yes you never throw around your background or experience.
Any other BS you want to put out there to show how "Superior" you are? Your comments have not only been lies, they are arrogant nasty and mean. It has been obvious from the start that you are the forum Expert Troll.
In looking through your posts there isn't a single one out of the few hundred I looked through that you didn't come off as a "Know it All". You never back down either.
I have a search engine too. Nothing on the internet ever goes away.
I said before I have better things to do than be abused by a buffoon on the internet.
You can have your forum back Mr. Motorcycle God, but I'll leave you with this statement by you to support the fact that you have a rusty old bike under a tarp in your leaky shed:
I buy, tatty but sound bikes and like to renovate and sell them on as a hobby and my GS which I decided to keep after I had finished it was in a worse condition for rust than the one in the pic, it had lived outside under a tarp`and not run for 2 of its 3 yrs
Take care to the rest of you on this forum. Listen to this guy. He knows it all.
Geez Dennis....did you stay up all night to find that? It was years ago!! How many times have you told us all bout yourself in just the last few weeks FGS!!
Did you really go back through thousands of my past posts to find something to try and use against me? Are you so weak and insecure that you have you let me get that far under your skin? Can I assume you are starting to cyberstalk me now?.....Dry up and grow up you sad old man :D
D+M at the time sponsored me through university and paid for my degree. Still on the payroll but I left the head office operation iong before Sulzer became involved in favour of a management role with one of their smaller regional electro-mechanical repair companies. True we don't see many bikes through the doors, that's more of a hobby but my background and the elements of mechanical and electrical engineering involved lends itself perfectly to it don't you think :thumb: There are one or two in here that know me well and might speak up and confirm what I am saying but I don't feel there is any need for me to ask them too :D
Still got few years to go before I catch up with you though. I just hope when I do I am not as bitter, antagonistic, shallow and insecure, ego driven and generally as obnoxious as you.....If I thought it was going to happen I would give it up now and start cleaning windows for a living :thumb:
Try this one :thumb:...http://www.sulzer.com/en (http://www.sulzer.com/en)
Just to finish Dennis....I hope you don't go, despite your arrogant, self focussed and somewhat boring and tiresome ways I think you are an interesting and knowledge person and you could have a lot to offer this forum.....but, and again let me reiterate....... you desperately need to stop blowing your own trumpet, ditch the air of self importance and rethink the way you present yourself....... :thumb:
I dont think we helped the OP out very much... :nono:
Quote from: The_Paragon on December 30, 2014, 07:56:40 AM
I dont think we helped the OP out very much... :nono:
Pretty difficult to help the OP when the resident expert criticizes every word that anyone else writes.
Go back and read the thread...it went south when the mouth came on.
The poor guy was looking for advice...what he got when we tried to help was "ARE YOU JOKING" which means "YOU ARE AN IDIOT".
Those of you on this forum who actually want to fix your bikes are at a disadvantage because if you don't do it his way, you're screwed. Nobody with any knowledge will come here because they will be abused by him. All your bikes will look and run like his because any other opinion will never be posted...it's the way of the web. Every forum has one. This one is insidious...and disgusting.
Power plays without substance to make himself feel superior. Has never posted anything of substance in the short time I have been here...just snide nasty comments.
Forums like this are to help people...and enjoy our motorcycles...it's impossible to do that when someone thinks this is "their" board and anyone with a different view will be chewed up and spit out with his power plays and nasty words.
It's really quite sad. You will never get any different information...maybe there are better ways to do things...not with him here.
Have fun guys.
Seeya around Dennis :thumb:
If you are going...go, if you are staying stay. Saying one thing but doing another just gives me another reason to laugh at you :D
(http://babyphotos.biz/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Cute-Baby-Kissing-Wallpaper-977.jpg)
BTW...I thought we both agreed on the same thing.....that he should take it to a shop and get their opinion and a quote :dunno_black:
As for nasty comments......give..... and thee shall receive :thumb:
I think the link to the hot brainy mechanic was very helpful for anyone wanting to inspect jugs... The bike jugs... The thing on the bike the pistons go in... I'll go back to watching HULU now...
Now, have you guys thought about this little thing -
Maybe the problem cant be helped.
Maybe the complaint is akin to "if the world were annihilated with a hydrogen bomb, then cockroaches will be feasting on my dead body" ... how can I solve that.
Here is a solution ... you're dead, and radioactive. So get away from me.
Hey, its an answer ...
Cool.
Buddha.