I'm considering a Cobb AccessPort (http://www.cobbtuning.com/COBB-Tuning-Accessport-s/70458.htm) to help smooth out the powerband of my new STi. Cobb claims that it's "unlikely" that a dealer would know if you loaded a custom map into the ECU. They say this because they claim that the original ECU profile is saved to the device and can be re-installed at any time by "unmarrying" the Cobb AccessPort.
I assume that modern ECUs use an EPROM?
Anybody know anything about this? It's a fairly heated debate; however I'd like to not have any powertrain warranty claims denied just because I loaded a more stable map onto the ECU. It doesn't really increase power much; more like it improves responsiveness.
The reason I'm considering this is because the stock map is considered by many to be very lean and could result in ring land failure. I also noticed that during hard acceleration the engine will occasionally misfire. This is common for this generation of STi. Most people either ignore it or install a Cobb AP.
I looked into getting an ECU flasher for my Focus ST.
Cobb is good, but their stuff is a bit more expensive than some others. I guess you pay for the customer support.
I've heard that the dealer can't deny a warranty claim, even if they detect the flash, unless they can prove that the damage/failure was caused by the rewriting of the ECU software.
Still sounds a bit sketchy to me, which is one reason I haven't done it yet.
The only thing I can think of is that if you flash it back to stock before bringing it to the dealer for service, wouldn't there be a gap in the timestamps in whatever logs the ECU keeps?
Quote from: Elmojo on December 24, 2014, 07:11:19 AM
I looked into getting an ECU flasher for my Focus ST.
Cobb is good, but their stuff is a bit more expensive than some others. I guess you pay for the customer support.
I've heard that the dealer can't deny a warranty claim, even if they detect the flash, unless they can prove that the damage/failure was caused by the rewriting of the ECU software.
Still sounds a bit sketchy to me, which is one reason I haven't done it yet.
The only thing I can think of is that if you flash it back to stock before bringing it to the dealer for service, wouldn't there be a gap in the timestamps in whatever logs the ECU keeps?
That's just the thing; Cobb states that the only thing a dealer would likely be able to see is the last time the ECU was reset. An ECU can be reset by simply disconnecting the battery.
The way it works is there is a "default" map on the ECU. As you drive the car, the ECU makes minor adjustments to the map, depending on temperature, humidity, knock detection, etc.. Call this the "hot" map. When you reset the ECU, all that data is erased, and then the default map is loaded once more.
The Cobb AP changes this "default" map.
That being said, it's unknown whether an additional module is able to detect if the ECU has ever been flashed. It's also unclear that if such a module did exist, if the dealer would have access to it.
It's also entirely possible that if there was a catastrophic failure the dealer would need to have a rep from SOA (Subaru of America) come look at the car. Unlikely? Probably. Possible? Yes.
What you're talking about is the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act of 1975. However, what you have to consider is Subaru or, in your case, Ford, is not going to want to replace a transmission if the ECU has a custom map or evidence of the ECU being tampered with. It's not even remotely a stretch for them to say "The ECU was modified in such a way that the engine was operating outside of designated parameters, which in turn caused unusual wear on the transmission. Claim denied."
Guess the question would be, 1 what would you gain versus stock with the thing, and 2 is it worth chancing it? , tbh tho id wait until after break in period
For the STi specifically:
1. Cobb is easy to use but expensive. Open source solutions exist, requiring a specific cable and a laptop, a user eager to read, and some courage. One can also purchase maps remotely via email and use the cable to instal those.
2. A reflashed, "tuned" ECU is readily detectable even if the original map is reinstalled. Check summing tells the tale. Whether your dealer will bother to look is another question. For a faulty parking lamp I'd not bother; for a cracked ring land or spun rod I'd not bother either -- BUT the dealer will be obligated to escalate with SOA, and the SOA guy WILL bother.
This means if you reflash and go boom! expect to pay the full bill just to be on the safe side. SOA will look as deep as they can and a reflashed then restored ECU in fact IS detectable.
3. Gains can be substantial depending on the map and parts. Even a Stg1 flash should increase output under the curve, if not peak; under the curve is of more interest anyway and any flat spots should go away. A Stg2 with full exhaust will see significant gains both under the curve and peak. Read the info on Cobb's site and keep in mind that their maps are generic to a model not a specific car.
If you go tune your own car on a dyno you will do even better. In that case ask the tuner what method to flash he uses.
4. There is no fourth thing.
5. If you do select Cobb you MUST follow the map notes. Do NOT deviate from the list of supported parts and supported octane for your specific map. Likewise if you tune with any other method do NOT swap parts without retuning.
For more info join ClubWRX or Nasioc or IWSTI and read all the FAQs ad nauseam.
6. Then re-read all the FAQs because your engine is $6K USD (more money than I'll make all day today...) and mistakes can be costly (see item 2 above).
If it were my car I'd do the following in order of preference:
A. Nothing.
B. Nothing until after the drivetrain or emissions warranty expires, whichever is later.
C. Stage 1 open source; no parts just a better flash. Keep available octane in mind.
D. Stage 2 open source with full exhaust. I'd keep the stock parts for smog testing purposes.
Hope I've helped.
Very detailed rallyfan :)
Get a rental and try it on that. LOL.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on December 24, 2014, 02:13:27 PM
Get a rental and try it on that. LOL.
Cool.
Buddha.
lmao not a bad idea. You make sense once in a while :cheers:
Quote from: Rallyfan on December 24, 2014, 11:43:31 AM
For the STi specifically:
1. Cobb is easy to use but expensive. Open source solutions exist, requiring a specific cable and a laptop, a user eager to read, and some courage. One can also purchase maps remotely via email and use the cable to instal those.
2. A reflashed, "tuned" ECU is readily detectable even if the original map is reinstalled. Check summing tells the tale. Whether your dealer will bother to look is another question. For a faulty parking lamp I'd not bother; for a cracked ring land or spun rod I'd not bother either -- BUT the dealer will be obligated to escalate with SOA, and the SOA guy WILL bother.
This means if you reflash and go boom! expect to pay the full bill just to be on the safe side. SOA will look as deep as they can and a reflashed then restored ECU in fact IS detectable.
3. Gains can be substantial depending on the map and parts. Even a Stg1 flash should increase output under the curve, if not peak; under the curve is of more interest anyway and any flat spots should go away. A Stg2 with full exhaust will see significant gains both under the curve and peak. Read the info on Cobb's site and keep in mind that their maps are generic to a model not a specific car.
If you go tune your own car on a dyno you will do even better. In that case ask the tuner what method to flash he uses.
4. There is no fourth thing.
5. If you do select Cobb you MUST follow the map notes. Do NOT deviate from the list of supported parts and supported octane for your specific map. Likewise if you tune with any other method do NOT swap parts without retuning.
For more info join ClubWRX or Nasioc or IWSTI and read all the FAQs ad nauseam.
6. Then re-read all the FAQs because your engine is $6K USD (more money than I'll make all day today...) and mistakes can be costly (see item 2 above).
If it were my car I'd do the following in order of preference:
A. Nothing.
B. Nothing until after the drivetrain or emissions warranty expires, whichever is later.
C. Stage 1 open source; no parts just a better flash. Keep available octane in mind.
D. Stage 2 open source with full exhaust. I'd keep the stock parts for smog testing purposes.
Hope I've helped.
I am a member of NASIOC, IWSTI and a few others. I've been looking there for answers and thought I'd try to get some information from someone here that actually knows something about how the ECU works. The nuts and bolts of it.
I'm well aware of how the AP works, and I'm not looking to increase power at all. I'm only after more pleasant power delivery.
Cobb specifically states that CHECKSUM will be returned to stock. The function of CHECKSUM is not a counter or "lie detector"; all it does is check for errors and check values. Check out this diagram for how CHECKSUM actually works:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Checksum.svg/604px-Checksum.svg.png)
Consider the stock tune "Fox". Fox has a CHECKSUM of 12345678910. If you install "Dog", which would be a different tune, the CHECKSUM would be different, like 9876543210. Once "Fox" has been re-installed, the CHECKSUM would return to 12345678910 providing that no data had been changed in the process.
Additionally, it will depend on the dealership you take it to. Some dealerships actually encourage people to use the Cobb AP and sell them out of their showroom. A dealership that is tune-friendly isn't going to give you a hard time if something completely fails that shouldn't have just because you have a STAGE1 tune.
I'm not installing any parts or mucking about with anything under the hood. The only thing I want to do is smooth the powerband out and have the ability to set different maps for different fuel. I have 93 octane readily available, but would like to run 91 occasionally or if I was forced to. I know that you can run 91 with the stock ECU map but the Cobb map is designed specifically for it.
The other added benefit of the AP is the ability to log data for the engine and also to see certain, otherwise "hidden" information.
Let's set aside two things:
1. Cobb have not released their source code.
2. My scepticism about who actually wrote and owns the IP to some of the code (that is, is every line written by virgin Cobb coders or did they copy/paste Subaru code or modify Subaru code, in which case Subaru has IP gripes).
Has Cobb stated that neither the stock 32bit ECU code nor their code reports the number of times a checksum is restored/altered? (Let's ignore whether it's reasonable to believe them and just ask whether they've said so).
For example, from a different forum:
Quote]I am a subaru service advisor. My 13 wrx is currently having two pistons replaced due too poor tuning. SOA good willed the repair. The access port does flash your setting back to factory, it however does not reset the flash counter. as stated the ecu has a number built into it that counts up every time it has been flashed. My own person vehicle i flashed back to cobb factory setting with my v3 accessport and the counter counted that as a flash too :). No way around that...
There's also an issue with dealers that fix modded cars on SOA's dime: aren't they "ripping off the other guy and passing the savings on to you..." as the old joke goes?
And dealers that sell Cobb APs: how comfortable are you doing business with a firm that's contracted to sell authentic Subaru parts yet sells imitation parts alongside?
Anyway, if you believe flashes are undetectable have at it, ease of use is very good with Cobb AP. I see no reason to believe it but YMMV.
PS any Subaru sold in the US is mapped adequately for 91. You could flash a 93 map though or you could smooth out delivery but I'd not rely on off the shelf maps. Look into custom maps IMO.