Paul was in bad shape, broken ribs, collar bone, concussion, road rash, and a punctured lung. I have a teeny tiny little scratch on my pinky, less then 1mm long.
Guess who high sided and who didn't?
ATGATT
Ouch, what happened?
Oh man! Glad you're alright. Sorry to hear of the extent of Paul's injuries. Hope he has a good recovery. My buddy is always wearing a t-shirt, never gloves, and only sometimes jeans. For me, I'm with you... ATGATT. You never know. :icon_exclaim:
Did bike #2 grab too much front brake?
WOW!
Glad to hear you are ok, sorry to hear your friend got beat up... Wishing him a speedy recovery!
Can we "learn" anything from this video?
Cookie
Quote from: twocool on July 20, 2015, 03:09:28 AM
Can we "learn" anything from this video?
Cookie
Looks like Rider #1 lost the rear. I see alot of brake light action going into the corner. Maybe a bit too much rear brake leading into the corner.
Tough Situation for Rider #2.. To me it looks like rider #2 (Slack?), grabbed a little too much brake (in response to seeing rider #1 go down) while still leaned in the corner.
But then I ask myself, Would I probably have done the same thing? Probably yes.
Possible solution (for rider 2): Stand the bike up some, brake hard to shave speed, then get back into the lean, with less speed and more manuverability, hope to find a clear route around Rider #1.. Not even sure I could think that fast on my toes in the situation.
ORRRR...
Just slow down.. But lets not come up with irrational solutions!!
Understand I am NOT knocking anyone, only trying to see what can be learned.
Both riders appear to be going too fast for a road they have not first scouted out, and so the wet, slick pavement took them by surprise.
-We've all done this, but the fact is, even racers scout out a new track. Learn from this mistake, don't ride hard unless you have first ridden the same area at a slow pace. There are a lot of things out there to take you by surprise (grass clippings, wet patches, loose gravel, etc), find them before they find you.
Bike 2 appears to grab a handful of brake and go down.
-Someone said, "Not even sure I could think that fast on my toes in the situation." the answer to that is, you can't. What you can do is go through situations like this in your head. Maybe even practice them on a parking lot. In any case, develop a plan for what you will do in a similar situation. In a panic situation, you do what you have planned to do.
Glad no one was injured beyond repair. I've high-sided a bike, it isn't fun. I was fortunate though, I walked away with a small abrasion on my back. I hope everyone heals quickly!
Seems he has a braking flasher (to draw attention when braking), it seemed to be too regular a flash to be manually done. If that is the case the braking did seem to go on long into the lean.
Get well soon.
Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk
Quote from: Word Man on July 20, 2015, 10:33:32 AM
-Someone said, "Not even sure I could think that fast on my toes in the situation." the answer to that is, you can't. What you can do is go through situations like this in your head. Maybe even practice them on a parking lot. In any case, develop a plan for what you will do in a similar situation. In a panic situation, you do what you have planned to do.
:thumb:
Thats some good advise!
Bike #1 went down, bike #2 was fallowing too close, compounding a bad situation. Slack gave himself only enough time to do what he did, I'm a firm believer in the "Two Second Rule" especially when railing.
And yes...Hindsight is 20/20
I think you all touched on just about every point which came to my mind....
Was the road wet in patches? Looks like that in the video.
Cookie
I was following too close, about 1 second following distance. Paul is the only rider I ride with who's judgement I trust enough to stay that close to - we all take calculated risks.
We had our pace a little too hot.
Paul does have a brake light flasher.
You can't see it, but there is gravel on the outside of the turn. And a bunch of very small (1/4-1/8 diameter) gravel on the inside of the lane. Neither of us noticed the gravel on the inside.
Paul was trail braking too heavily into the turn and locked up the rear wheel as soon as he hit the gravel. I was then stuck trying to panic brake as I got onto the gravel. Watch closely and you'll see that my front end folded at the exact same spot paul's rear started sliding. I was just asking too much of my front tire. But, it was better then staying on the gas and running over him. Or standing it up and hitting the worse gravel at the outside.
NOTE: I don't remember grabbing the brake, or even shutting the throttle. In my mind it went: Oh snap, paul's losing the rear tire, I need to brake. And as soon as I thought, "I need to brake" I was already sliding down the asphalt. Don't know if my muscle's were just acting on their own, like it does when you are connected to your bike and just think, "shift" and it happens without you thinking, "gas, clutch, shift lever, clutch, gas". Or maybe I hadn't reacted yet and I would have layed it down anyway in that corner, at that pace, even if paul hadn't just fallen right in front of me. I don't know.
There were a few wet spots here and there, but they didn't cause the accident, and 99.8% of the road was dry. You may be confusing the shade for wet asphalt.
We thought we had adjusted our speed for then current road traction conditions, we just didn't count on all those little ball bearing rocks, and neither of us saw them in time. It could have been avoided by running with a larger margin of safety in both following distance (for me) and pace for both of us.
Ah...gravel...scary stuff...not much you can do about it either....
To me, the speed did not look excessive (for normal smooth dry clean roads) because you can see that the lean angle is not excessive.
The thing which really grabbed my attention was the use of braking during the turns..
Turning, braking, and then of course the gravel....all adding to the loss of traction
The thing is to be slow enough BEFORE the turn so you don't need braking IN the turn. But if you don't know the road, or you don't know there is an area of gravel...then you don't know you're too fast until its too late.
Around here they have a weird way of repaving the back roads....they call it "oil and loose gravel"....or "tar and gravel"....I call it "tar and feather"...
What they do is just pour thick oil all over the road..and dump an inch or two of gravel on top of that...over a few weeks, the gravel sinks into the oil and sort of hardens up. But as cars travel on this crap, it mounds up the gravel into two or three inch thick piles. You gotta go real easy riding on these roads.
Cookie
Quote from: Slack on July 20, 2015, 05:37:42 PM
I was following too close, about 1 second following distance. Paul is the only rider I ride with who's judgement I trust enough to stay that close to - we all take calculated risks.
We had our pace a little too hot.
Paul does have a brake light flasher.
You can't see it, but there is gravel on the outside of the turn. And a bunch of very small (1/4-1/8 diameter) gravel on the inside of the lane. Neither of us noticed the gravel on the inside.
Paul was trail braking too heavily into the turn and locked up the rear wheel as soon as he hit the gravel. I was then stuck trying to panic brake as I got onto the gravel. Watch closely and you'll see that my front end folded at the exact same spot paul's rear started sliding. I was just asking too much of my front tire. But, it was better then staying on the gas and running over him. Or standing it up and hitting the worse gravel at the outside.
NOTE: I don't remember grabbing the brake, or even shutting the throttle. In my mind it went: Oh snap, paul's losing the rear tire, I need to brake. And as soon as I thought, "I need to brake" I was already sliding down the asphalt. Don't know if my muscle's were just acting on their own, like it does when you are connected to your bike and just think, "shift" and it happens without you thinking, "gas, clutch, shift lever, clutch, gas". Or maybe I hadn't reacted yet and I would have layed it down anyway in that corner, at that pace, even if paul hadn't just fallen right in front of me. I don't know.
There were a few wet spots here and there, but they didn't cause the accident, and 99.8% of the road was dry. You may be confusing the shade for wet asphalt.
We thought we had adjusted our speed for then current road traction conditions, we just didn't count on all those little ball bearing rocks, and neither of us saw them in time. It could have been avoided by running with a larger margin of safety in both following distance (for me) and pace for both of us.
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on July 20, 2015, 11:23:39 AM
And yes...Hindsight is 20/20
... and foresight is blind. It's easy to look back and say, "Oh, that's why that happened". But people very rarely are able to predict exactly what's going to happen. I know I sure as heck can't lol.
At least you're okay, Slack. Here's to a speedy recovery for all parties involved.
Gravel is the devil. I too wish you both a speedy recovery!!!
Quote from: ShowBizWolf on July 20, 2015, 07:27:21 PM
Gravel is the devil. I too wish you both a speedy recovery!!!
A few years back here in Washington State we had an old koot that was purposely spreading gravel in the corners of a popular twisty road.
Sorry to hear about your misadventure. I hope you both recover quickly and are back riding again soon.
Back when I first started riding motorbikes we had a saying for corners - slow in, fast out - which meant getting the corner set up properly before the corner. Thus no braking when changing direction. A few similar experiences (but much less painful) reinforced that message so I ended up teaching my kids to drive that way too. Cars or bikes. Trying to brake when cornering is dangerous. Sometimes you need to grit your teeth and hang on and trust your bike.
Again, I hope you both recover soon.
"Lean and believe"
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on July 20, 2015, 09:28:20 PM
"Lean and believe"
That's IOMTT-esque! ... very poetical Stevie!
Quote from: Janx101 on July 21, 2015, 11:25:19 AM
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on July 20, 2015, 09:28:20 PM
"Lean and believe"
That's IOMTT-esque! ... very poetical Stevie!
I can't take any credit for it, it's a saying the local Road Racer's use :thumb:
Quote from: Slack on July 19, 2015, 06:28:23 PM
Paul was in bad shape, broken ribs, collar bone, concussion, road rash, and a punctured lung. I have a teeny tiny little scratch on my pinky, less then 1mm long.
Guess who high sided and who didn't?
ATGATT
I'm glad you're OK and I hope Paul has a speedy recovery.
I know it was not a good experience for you, but I appreciate you posting the video. It is helpful to me (and probably others too) to look at real-world situations and try to calculate what my reaction would/should be. Looks like you did the best you possibly could. Low-side is sometimes your only option. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for all the kind words guys and gals.
Paul is out of the hospital and doing ok. The only reason they kept him a few nights was to keep an eye on his lungs. Apparently at his age (68) lung damage can often lead to pneumonia! Luckily he is in very good shape and should recover well. He's already trying to decide if he should part his bike out or fix it, and can't wait for our next ride (in a few months).
:2guns: Tow bill of 35-40 miles was $1075 :bs:
:icon_eek: That tow bill is indeed ridiculous!!! :technical:
So good of you to update on Paul... glad to know he is in good shape and wants to ride again! My dad will be 63 this year and I convince him to take my GS out once in a while :D I am not sure if ya added 5 more years onto him and if he took a tumble like that he'd be in as good shape :dunno_white: He works a million hours a week and stays active because of that but I worry about him a lot...
Couple of contributing factors that I didn't see mentioned:
1) Terrible line into the corner. Stood the bike up too soon exiting the previous corner, which resulted in being too far inside at the start of the crash corner. A wider entrance would have given a better sight line and required less lean angle.
This is a very, very common mistake. Particularly on left-handers, either starting off too far inside, or starting the turn in too early.
2) Headed into the sun. That makes stuff in the road harder to see and reduces the time you have to react. Need to slow down.