My '04 GS has ~12,000 miles on it. I've used the procedure from posts on this forum and my own Clymer manual to adjust these clutch adjustment points. I've probably done it 25+ times since I've owned the bike. That is WAY too frequent. I'm practically a freaking expert at it at this point and if I have to turn that screw one more time I'm going to lose it. :mad:
I'll adjust the 3 points step-by-step properly according to procedure. Once I go out on the road and test the feel of the clutch it grabs quick and feels nice and crisp for about 5 minutes. I'll make it maybe a mile and by the time I hit the main road and get on it a bit to check slippage at top gears it's already back to slipping! It's quite noticeable in first at take off as well; laggy and sluggish.
It won't stay tight at all for very long and I've fiddled and fiddled with the thing. I've tried every method and combination that I could think of and my ingenuity is found lacking, apparently. So now, I turn to this forum.
Anyone here have any ideas?
How old is your clutch cable? Any fraying at the bar end? Last time I had to adjust the clutch multiple times, the cable snapped 5 miles from home.
As far as I am aware the cable has never been replaced. I am the third owner and have put 6500 miles on the bike. Clutch cable at the clutch lever looks pristine when I pull it in fully. This has been an ongoing problem for some months now and I ride minimum 200-250miles per week. It hasn't broken yet, if that were the issue. Though it could be.
Are you saying that the freeplay at the lever keeps disappearing after a few miles or that the clutch is slipping despite having some clearance/freeplay at the lever?
These are two totally different situations and from your description it sounds like clutch slip as the clutch warms up, not a clearance problem.
Macka
Apologies if I was unclear before;
The lever (and I'm assuming the cable) appear to operate flawlessly. The problem is the clutch itself failing to grab. It doesn't seem to grab tightly and slips. So take off in 1st is sluggish because it takes longer than it should for it to engage fully, and in 5th and 6th gear if I really crack open the throttle quickly it slips, revving up high but providing little to no acceleration. Even if I roll on at a moderate pace it slips some times in higher gears.
The amount of times I've adjusted the clutch cable adjustment to fix that is many, in a short span of time. The cable adjustment does work, temporarily, though it never fixes the slippage issue for long. After a short time the clutch slips again.
OK. You have a slipping clutch. It is not the fault of adjustment.
Perhaps it has had the wrong (friction modified) oil in the engine. That would damage the clutch plates and stop them from gripping. If that is the case you will need to replace the friction discs and clean the metal plates.
At your present mileage the clutch should not be worn out unless it has been abused.
It sounds like you need a "clutch overhaul".
Macka
I wouldnt rule out improper adjustment or failure in the clutch cable and lever itself so quickly...especially since the clutch itself is a relatively simple mechanical piece. Also if the OP has adjusted 25 X since this began then the adjustment mechanism (if we are to assume it is done correct and holds) would have likely run out of adjustment by now meaning nothing the OP did to adjust the clutch (without opening up the clutch itself) would result in any improvement.
Perhaps the clutch cable lock/adjustment nuts are backing off? I can't see it happening at the bars but at the clutch cover it is conceivable.
Barring anything else...open up the clutch. Check the bolts, check the springs, check the discs, change your oil to motorcycle specific oil.
If you are unsure about the oil in the bike, I would change it with a know quantity as a start.
I'm confident it isn't the oil. I'm using fairly standard stuff. 15w40 Rotella T Triple Protection. It isn't energy conserving, friction modified, and so forth; At least not indicated by the seal on the back or anywhere on the container.
Stated previously, there were only two owners before me (supposedly) and they both only accrued about 5,500 odometer miles in total (supposedly) before it sat up a while in both their care. I can't imagine they could really have done anything to it in that span of time to ruin a wet clutch. I think the most abusive thing I do to my clutch is hold it in at lights, but it should be able to handle that, to my knowledge. I'm no expert, though.
Quote from: mwe on January 21, 2016, 09:19:10 AM
I wouldnt rule out improper adjustment or failure in the clutch cable and lever itself so quickly...especially since the clutch itself is a relatively simple mechanical piece. Also if the OP has adjusted 25 X since this began then the adjustment mechanism (if we are to assume it is done correct and holds) would have likely run out of adjustment by now meaning nothing the OP did to adjust the clutch (without opening up the clutch itself) would result in any improvement.
Perhaps the clutch cable lock/adjustment nuts are backing off? I can't see it happening at the bars but at the clutch cover it is conceivable.
Barring anything else...open up the clutch. Check the bolts, check the springs, check the discs, change your oil to motorcycle specific oil.
If you are unsure about the oil in the bike, I would change it with a know quantity as a start.
This is my first bike and my first time tackling something of this nature on a motorcycle, so I'm not really following you on that first bit. If i did "run out of adjustment room" how would you suggest I go about fixing that?
Otherwise I'll give it one more adjustment, but if it still doesn't set properly it sounds like I'll have to crack it open, which isn't so bad. I'll be needing to drain the oil soon to replace the gasket on the right side, regardless. It's got a pretty severe oil leak.
If the clutch itself were wearing out, each time you adjusted the cable you are effectively then just taking up the slack created by the wear in the clutch. The cable length is limited and at some point you run out of cable. My point was there was likely never 25 x extra adjustment room to begin with which leads me to think that the fault lies in the adjustment itself.
Quote from: Iarn on January 21, 2016, 10:35:10 AM
I'll be needing to drain the oil soon to replace the gasket on the right side, regardless. It's got a pretty severe oil leak.
First clue one of the two PO's might have been in there and left out one of the disks or something stupid like that :dunno_black:
Quote from: mwe on January 21, 2016, 11:12:31 AM
If the clutch itself were wearing out, each time you adjusted the cable you are effectively then just taking up the slack created by the wear in the clutch. The cable length is limited and at some point you run out of cable. My point was there was likely never 25 x extra adjustment room to begin with which leads me to think that the fault lies in the adjustment itself.
I see, thanks for the explanation.
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on January 21, 2016, 12:09:21 PM
Quote from: Iarn on January 21, 2016, 10:35:10 AM
I'll be needing to drain the oil soon to replace the gasket on the right side, regardless. It's got a pretty severe oil leak.
First clue one of the two PO's might have been in there and left out one of the disks or something stupid like that :dunno_black:
It's possible. I got my baby off craigslist and I've always had a dubious feeling about its past. To me it's obvious since it's been in my care that it has been abused and not well maintained in the past. I'm not even sure I trust the ODO, but I digress...
I've just adjusted the 3-pointer again just a few minutes ago. I've lost all hope at this point that it is causing the issue. The pushrod is in perfect position, no doubt about that. I set the rough adjustment and rode off. It was still slipping so I stopped a few times down the road to adjust the rough adjustment, just to see if I was missing some "sweet spot" in the adjustment. It helped a little here or there or made it a little worse here or there depending on my adjustment, but the clutch still hiccups/slips at take off and in 5th and 6th around 6.5k RPM it slips. Especially if I try to crack the throttle. The clutch simply cannot hold on, it seems.
At this point it's either the cable or the plates. I'm having doubts spending the $130+ for the plate kit and such is even worth it at this point. :sad:
just for shits and giggles...please confirm that the clutch cable is secured to the clutch cover/engine cases. If I recall there should be 3 nuts on the end of the cable at the adjustment (one to set height, one to secure the height agains the case and the last to lock the nuts so they dont back off under vibration. Confirm you have all the three nuts and that the adjuster is secure. If this checks out...and before you buy plates. Pull the Clutch pack and measure the springs and the plates to confirm they are in or out of spec.
If your clutch is slipping then it means your cable would be too tight. Cables don't get shorter over time, they stretch and cause the opposite problem than the one you're having.
Here is an idea for you. Disconnect the clutch cable, rev your engine and drop it in gear (with the brake applied and ready to hit the kill switch). See if the clutch slips, my bet is that it does slip.
You should still measure the clutch springs. You never know, the PO may have left some out or used springs from another bike or ... ?
You need to look at your clutch pack.
Quote from: mwe on January 21, 2016, 01:34:14 PM
just for shits and giggles...please confirm that the clutch cable is secured to the clutch cover/engine cases. If I recall there should be 3 nuts on the end of the cable at the adjustment (one to set height, one to secure the height agains the case and the last to lock the nuts so they dont back off under vibration. Confirm you have all the three nuts and that the adjuster is secure. If this checks out...and before you buy plates. Pull the Clutch pack and measure the springs and the plates to confirm they are in or out of spec.
The only fasteners I can identify there are the adjuster bolt and the lock nut. Where that third one is I do not know, I suppose the final nut is inside the case? As far as loose cables, I can pull the sheath covering the wire going into the adjuster up a bit, I don't think that's what you mean, though. Not too sure how to access the cable from the clutch cover without removing it, if there is a way. I will fiddle with it more in depth and look at it when I remove the cover.
Quote from: lucas on January 21, 2016, 02:00:44 PM
If your clutch is slipping then it means your cable would be too tight. Cables don't get shorter over time, they stretch and cause the opposite problem than the one you're having.
Here is an idea for you. Disconnect the clutch cable, rev your engine and drop it in gear (with the brake applied and ready to hit the kill switch). See if the clutch slips, my bet is that it does slip.
You should still measure the clutch springs. You never know, the PO may have left some out or used springs from another bike or ... ?
You need to look at your clutch pack.
I suppose it is settled, then. I have to remove the clutch cover anyway to replace the gasket. I'll measure and count the springs and plates. I'm assuming I can find the specs in my service manual?
Once I know more I'll report back here. I appreciate the help and the brainstorming a ton, folks! :thumb:
The only way possible for an adjustment to make the clutch slip is to have the rough adjustment #6 too tight (No free play, holding clutch open) if you have it backed it out 1/4-1/2 a turn and it still slips, you're gunna have to pull the right case to see what's up with the basket.
All right. Clutch cover gasket came in today; along with it I bought some digital vernier calipers and oil change materials.
On to measuring the plates and springs. How exactly would I go about that? Should I completely disassemble the clutch plate assembly and measure each plate and each spring individually? Is there an order I'd have to keep them in when removed?
My manual says 60.8mm service limit for the coil springs, so if they're shorter than 60.8mm, replace them. Am I understanding that correctly? Also, do i compress the spring at all with the caliper when measuring, or no?
Drive plates are 2.92mm - 3.08mm standard and if they're within this thickness, they are still serviceable. Service limit is 2.62mm or shorter so if they measure that or less they'll need to be replaced? Is that right?
If I replace the springs, do I need to replace the drive plates as well, or vice versa? Is just replacing springs or drive places acceptable if say the springs are out of spec but the plates are not?
Anything else I need to know or am missing? I'm inexperienced so I want to make sure this goes smoothly. :oops:
I know I'm asking dumb questions but I'm worried about leaving my bike in a worse state than it is now. :dunno_white:
Measure the springs uncompressed. There is no order to the springs, they should be identical to each other.
Measure each clutch plate individually. There is an order the plates alternate, you will see there are two types of plates. One steel and one friction material and they alternate.
If any of the measurements are outside of the service limit you are supposed to replace that part. Suzuki's engineers decided what the service limit is and the instructions are that if a part is outside the service limit it should not be used on the motorcycle. It is not strictly necessary to replace all the springs if some are still in the correct range. Just replace any bad springs, you can buy them individually.
When you buy new clutch plates you will get a whole set. If the plates are outside the service range or even near the minimum or if you are missing plates then buy a new set.
Keep track of what you measured and separate them into piles. Maybe spread out a couple pieces of paper and write "good springs" "bad springs" or something. You can waste time remeasuring everything because you lost track.
Your clutch will have 7 friction plates and 6 steel plates. 13 in all. The idea that you are missing plates might be stupid... The clutch might not work at all if you were missing a plate
See the diagram here:
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Suzuki/Motorcycle/1992/GS500ET/CLUTCH/parts.html
Here is a video of someone removing their clutch. You'll go through this same procedure (after you drain your oil!)
https://youtu.be/uySgpe5OyYw
Whoops! Accidental third post...
Anyhow, you should be able to get new clutch plates for much less than $130. If the steel plates are in the service range then you could buy the friction plates only for like $45 maybe less.
Thanks. I'll break it open within the next couple days to a week and we'll see how it's looking in there. I'm interested to see the state of the old gasket. I'll post pics.
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on January 21, 2016, 06:44:13 PM
The only way possible for an adjustment to make the clutch slip is to have the rough adjustment #6 too tight (No free play, holding clutch open) if you have it backed it out 1/4-1/2 a turn and it still slips, you're gunna have to pull the right case to see what's up with the basket.
Mine slipped the 1st time I adjusted according to the manual. Just keep backing it out or use the major adjuster screw for some slack.
All right. Here's the scoop.
The gasket was busted. Had one large and one small tear near the top. There was also a leak near the bottom, but I'm not quite sure where that was coming from, as the bottom of the gasket looks fine. There is a large plug on the bottom of the cover, could that be the source?
(http://i.imgur.com/ci5UCdb.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/GWbxSHO.jpg)
The springs look pretty great. Manual says service limit for the clutch coil springs is 60.8mm and their average measurement is 63.24mm. So that's a small load off.
Then we get to the clutch plates. All seven were present; but on first glance, they don't look so good to me. They look burned and abused. Is this is how they normally look after some wear? Perhaps someone can fill me in on that.
I observed the metal plates to stick to the fiber plates a smidge, but not really sure if that's normal, either.
Service Limit for the fiber plates is 2.62mm. Standard measurements are 2.92mm - 3.08mm. Average measurement for these were 2.93mm. Some were below that. Shortest plate was 2.89mm and tallest was 3.01mm. So majority of these plates are minimum standard.
(http://i.imgur.com/dLHL82S.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/WfOoZdl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/AcwbnHL.jpg)
I haven't measured the metal plates. Is it possible to do that with the vernier caliper, or do I need to buy a set of gauges?
Well, seems I'm in need of some new plates, regardless. Is OEM a must, or is aftermarket for these things acceptable? I'd appreciate a link to a reputable place in which I could purchase some.
I'm pretty dumbfounded that this bike is approximately 12,000 miles on it and these plates are in these condition. Baffles me. I had my suspicions previously, but I feel as though this confirms that my bike hasn't been well cared for in the past. Ah, well. It's mine now :thumb:
Thoughts?
I can't speak for burnt /abused fiber plates. But is there a tolerance for the thickness of the steel plates? I can't imagine them ever wearing out though...... did you check the flatness of the steel plates on a piece of glass?
Manual indicates that steel plates can become distorted and to check it with a thickness gauge. I can't check the specs right now, though.
I don't think the flatness is the issue. In the manual it shows a picture of the thickness gauge measuring along the face of the plate. I imagine they're wanting to check for uniformity around the ring.
12,000 miles is plenty of time to ruin a clutch. The images look ok to me, I can't see anything wrong with them but that doesn't really mean anything. Here is a set of used plates, these also look ok to me:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/04-09-SUZUKI-GS500F-Clutch-Plates-Discs-/171891146500?hash=item280582bf04:g:3nUAAOSw9N1Vy3AP&vxp=mtr
Your clutch plates aren't at the service limit, just at the low end of the standard range (which I interpret as the thickness of the item when it is new, but... ??) perhaps the clutch was damaged by incorrect oil or something?
The manual doesn't list a thickness for the steel plates, just a distortion limit of .1mm or .004in. You would put the plate on a flat surface and see if you can slide a feeler gauge under. A mirror is probably flat enough. If the steel plates are distorted that could lead to slipping.
(http://i.imgur.com/YdfvHgr.png)
Are you sure you were adjusting the cable correctly? Did you have some free-play in the clutch lever?
(http://i.imgur.com/EC4MFtr.png)
What's the tolerance for a GS500? You can put the plate on a picture frame and get something with a similar thickness to use as a gauge (Google helps with that). At least you can see if they are distorted at all.
Could be a previous owner was a trainee Burnout Master!
Maybe one of these sorry fools was the previous owner of your motorcycle
https://youtu.be/oebzAIZEfxQ
Quote from: lucas on February 04, 2016, 08:39:07 PM
Your clutch plates aren't at the service limit, just at the low end of the standard range (which I interpret as the thickness of the item when it is new, but... ??) perhaps the clutch was damaged by incorrect oil or something?
I measured the plates just now in the area between the pad. The "service limit" measurement for the fiber pads is the pads pretty much being ground down to nothing. So I think 2.62mm is a pretty extreme case. Shouldn't let them get that bad. Regardless, these plates are all at or below the minimum standard measurement that is called for, so I think they're no good. They're only going to get worse in the future, ya know?
Quote from: lucas on February 04, 2016, 08:39:07 PM
The manual doesn't list a thickness for the steel plates, just a distortion limit of .1mm or .004in. You would put the plate on a flat surface and see if you can slide a feeler gauge under. A mirror is probably flat enough. If the steel plates are distorted that could lead to slipping.
I see, I misread the manual. Put them on a flat surface and measure beneath with a feeler gauge. Duh me, :cookoo:
Quote from: lucas on February 04, 2016, 08:39:07 PM
Are you sure you were adjusting the cable correctly? Did you have some free-play in the clutch lever?
100% Sure. I did it according to the manual many, many times. I even tried many variations of my own making. None worked well or for long. I go over that in greater detail earlier in the thread.
Quote from: Big Rich on February 04, 2016, 08:39:39 PM
What's the tolerance for a GS500? You can put the plate on a picture frame and get something with a similar thickness to use as a gauge (Google helps with that). At least you can see if they are distorted at all.
0.10mm. In other words, really small. I'll be buying some feeler gauges to check them. May as well go all out while it's apart, right?
Quote from: Janx101 on February 04, 2016, 09:03:45 PM
Could be a previous owner was a trainee Burnout Master!
Burning out on a GS... :laugh: :cookoo:
Iarn, when I had my old Honda the tolerance for the valve tappets was ridiculously small (I can't remember exactly at the moment). Without buying some specialty feeler gauge, I found out that a sliver of aluminum from a soda / beer can was a great makeshift feeler gauge...... but never recommended it to anybody else because the aluminum could rip apart and fall down inside the engine.
But it sounds like you're on the right track for getting your clutch back on track.
Quote from: Big Rich on February 05, 2016, 01:01:02 PM
Iarn, when I had my old Honda the tolerance for the valve tappets was ridiculously small (I can't remember exactly at the moment). Without buying some specialty feeler gauge
Older Honda's use to be .002 In /.003 Ex, at least the ones I owned from the 70's and 80's, and the hot ticket was the special gauge with .002/.003 @ a 45°, I have one around here somewhere?
So I got a feeler gauge and put those metal plates on a glass table. The 0.10mm didn't slide in too easily. Not without some force, so I guess they're within spec. Still not feeling How burned up they look, though. Not sure what kind of stresses the heat put them on.
Back to my earlier question. Does anyone here have any experience with these fiber plates and knowledge about possible replacement options? Is OEM a must or is aftermarket perfectly fine? That'll determine if I get some plates of unknown origin from Ebay, or something from Bikebandit. Thanks!
This is the 64,000 dollar question.
Do you buy OEM, name brand, no-name, or cheap replica. In this case it's pretty obvious that a replica is out of the question, so no $2.99 clutch deals.
The two factors that affect your performance are the slip friction characteristics and the longevity of the clutch plates.
BUT the two things that people review clutch plates on are the appearance and whether it fits. I imagine you could come across people who day the clutch plates broke into pieces, but I've never heard of that before.
So the two things you care about are the things people can't objectively comment on. Evaluating the feel of a clutch is totally subjective and people can over- or under-estimate how abusive they are to their clutch.
Vehicle manufactures don't have a monopoly on good products and processes. In fact vehicle manufactures typically don't make many of the products that are installed on the vehicle but buy things like clutch and brake components from companies who specialize in those products.
As far as I know there is no one who is studying the performance, longevity, and wear characteristics of different clutches and then publishing that information. So like the rest of us you are on your own to make your decision about which product to trust and which marketing slogans to listen to.
Guess I'll just bite the bullet and get the OEM pads. Those obviously work, given they're in thousands of GS. Would rather pay the extra for the peace of mind rather than paying $50 for a pack of pads twice and the time of replacing them twice on top of that.
How did this resolve? Have you replaced the clutch pack yet?
Unresolved. She's still sitting apart in my garage. I've got to wait for tax return and then another week or so for the parts to come in after that. I'll update once I get the new plates in there. I just hope they fix the issue. :dunno_black:
Time for an update.
The new fiber and metal plates are in. They seem to engage fine. I haven't had an opportunity to really test it though due to a seeming complication...
The oil pressure light is coming on, now. It isn't at full brightness, though. It's about 50% brightness. It's pretty strange. It's on when the bike runs, but when I kill the bike with the kill switch it gets substantially brighter, like it usually does when you kill it that way. I'm paranoid to take the bike very far now.
Not sure what to do. Heh
EDIT: Well, in spite of the wonky light, I foolishly put my bike through it's paces and the slip is gone as of now. I hope it's gone forever. I'm not surprised now that the other plates and fibers weren't holding considering how scorched they were.
Thanks for all the help.
That's good news. The oil light thing is odd.
The oil pressure sensor is located in the engine side cover that you removed. Perhaps you blocked the sensor with the gasket or with RTV silicone? Hopefully someone with specific experience in this can offer some advice for you.
Here's an idea. You may have a slight connection to ground somewhere on the wire leading to the oil pressure sensor.
I'm not sure how you could test this... I'll try to think of a way.
If the oil light problem started directly after draining/refilling its possible the gallery directly behind the switch has a trapped air bubblet in it.
Try unscrewing the sensor and letting some oil out, like you would if you were bleeding a radiator.
Sorry I can't help with the oil light issue. Did you use an OEM gasket? I had a similar problem when I used the wrong gasket on the sump (that gasket is different for bikes with/without oil cooler). So it does seem like a oil passage is partially blocked. Does revving the engine make the light go away?
I'm curious what sprockets you are running. Stock? I have a 17t front sprocket and I sometimes worry I am shortening the clutch plate life.
Quote from: Bluesmudge on March 08, 2016, 01:45:15 PM
Sorry I can't help with the oil light issue. Did you use an OEM gasket? I had a similar problem when I used the wrong gasket on the sump (that gasket is different for bikes with/without oil cooler). So it does seem like a oil passage is partially blocked. Does revving the engine make the light go away?
I'm curious what sprockets you are running. Stock? I have a 17t front sprocket and I sometimes worry I am shortening the clutch plate life.
Just for clarity's sake, the gasket is OEM, and the sprockets are the original sizes. The light's state didn't change with revs. The brightness would max out if the kill switch was used to off the bike, but that's it.
The light seems to be functioning properly now. It could've been an air bubble. I had it drained and the side cover off for a few weeks. After some riding it seems to have gone away, perhaps the bubble was dislodged. That or the problem was electrical as lucas was saying. Either way, seems peachy now. :dunno_white: :icon_mrgreen: