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Main Area => General GS500 Discussion => Topic started by: The Buddha on March 25, 2016, 04:29:44 PM

Title: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on March 25, 2016, 04:29:44 PM
The bike is a 95, with 01 carbs and has been my runner for 3+ yrs. Have put 3-4k on it.
Has yosh slip on Ti trioval pipe, stock filter in airbox and 132.5/20/1 washer/3 turns.
Carbs are clean, air filter is clean, valves are loose end of spec. Floats are set right, carbs are synched.
It used to bog at take off when its cold. But 2 mins after starting it and bogging 1-2 times, it will rev fine, make tons of power and like like a scalded dog.
It ran great Wednesday morning and evening inspite of the 2 mins of bogging in the beginning. Made 90 indicated or so on the way home Wednesday afternoon.
Thursday morning - starts, but makes no power, cant ride off on it, it starts and idles and sounds great, but the thing will not rev, and sounds hollow when you rev it, and it wont have any power to ride. Start to let out the clutch and it will stall. I can start it immediately, and it seems to not ever get to where it does not bog.

I'll post what it turns out to be. But any ideas are welcome.

Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: lucas on March 25, 2016, 05:43:22 PM
Zero power, hollow sound.  Those were symptoms of my bike when a coil failed. 

But if a coil failed wouldn't that require you to turn up the idle screw to get it in the proper range?
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: Big Rich on March 25, 2016, 05:47:19 PM
My guess:

Running on one cylinder. Suddenly caused by a clogged main jet or sticking needle. Or an electrical issue - faulty plug, loose connection to a coil. Basically carbs or electric, could be spun Piston rings lining up causing a loss of pressure.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on March 26, 2016, 06:34:51 AM
I dont think its losing 1 cyl, but I'll check. I stripped a rotor cover bolt, so I have to drill it out and look at it today. Plus the coils on the frame.

The bike needs all the rings and everything else to be intact to idle. Idle makes the most vacuum, so I doubt it is related to the rings not sealing.

Clogged jets - definitely not. All clean and purty.

Back to the mystery now.

Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: sledge on March 26, 2016, 06:59:02 AM
My guess.....could be water in the gas, maybe someone took a pi** in your tank on weds night.

:D :D :D
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on March 26, 2016, 09:32:44 AM
Ha ha sledge.
OK I'm ruling out electrical.
Why ??? - on choke it revs to 4k-6k. On throttle it lacks power and not rev past ~3k.

Anyway - I am circling this theory. May explain most if not all symptoms.

Floats are high - one is worse than the other one but they are high. But I believe they are progressively getting worse. Also I am very reluctant to adjust floats on an 01+. That makes it likely that its the culprit. Maybe leaking, maybe an issue with one of em "sinking"

Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: lucas on March 26, 2016, 11:00:25 AM
Have you checked the temps of your exhaust header?  That would be a dead giveaway of a dead cylinder
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on March 26, 2016, 08:11:48 PM
Not really in this case, its running on both on choke. And revving to 6k, give it throttle and if it loses a cyl - which it probably would with a float that is too high - I certainly cant touch and tell which one is not firing before I lose a finger or 3 ...

Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: rg500gamma on March 27, 2016, 01:06:57 AM
Hi  Buddha  ,   same problem here  2007  GS 500 F   ,   how high were the floats  ,  I  keep thinking  its electrical  ,  but  I am  making  black smoke  sometimes ,  however  spark plugs  look great  ,  I put trickle  charger  on every night when I get home ,  starts  right up  ,  leave sit for 12 hours ( no trickle charger on )  , and guess what  hard to start  ,  well  in the next day or two I am taking carbs off , taking them to whittier Kawasaki , and putting  new floats , new needles , new seats, new jets , clean carbs  complete , complete overhall  on carbs ,   as  all the above  parts are  9 years old ,  16,000  miles  on the clock ,  had new battery checked out ,  well  tonight  I am gonna check  the connection  on the starter and see if  loose .  anyways  let us know  how you are coming along .
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: Alan_nc on March 27, 2016, 01:43:01 AM
Just for ruling things out....have you run a compression check?
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: rg500gamma on March 27, 2016, 02:58:11 AM
gonna have to get a compression test kit
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: rg500gamma on March 27, 2016, 05:11:42 AM
Buddha ,  do you have any oil in the airbox ?   maybe some blow-by , worn down piston rings  , how many miles on bike ?   air filter have some  engine oil on it ?  do to blow-by .
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on March 27, 2016, 11:23:20 AM
Air box is clean, no gas or oil on filter. Dry and clean.
Has tons of power, or has when it ran. Compression is probably fine.
I gotta check out my theory tomorow.
My floats may have been high enough to drown out the air intake jets in the filter mouth. AKA, essentially choked itself in gas, but maybe my dry sound - wasn't a very good description.
Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: rg500gamma on March 27, 2016, 10:03:21 PM
hey  Buddha   ,    really  sounds  like   high float level  =  less  performance  .   what I am going to do is  buy brand new floats .  as  I can  smell  very rich mixture out tailpipe .  did you check starter wire to battery , make sure its  not loose .   :thumb:
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: rg500gamma on March 27, 2016, 10:08:48 PM
Quote from: Alan_nc on March 27, 2016, 01:43:01 AM
Just for ruling things out....have you run a compression check?
+1                                                                                                                                       
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: lucas on March 27, 2016, 10:11:36 PM
Rg500, it might not be necessary to buy new floats, you could try adjusting the ones you have
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: rg500gamma on March 27, 2016, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: lucas on March 25, 2016, 05:43:22 PM
Zero power, hollow sound.  Those were symptoms of my bike when a coil failed. 

But if a coil failed wouldn't that require you to turn up the idle screw to get it in the proper range?
+1
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: lucas on March 27, 2016, 10:14:01 PM
Buddha, you might be able to tell if you have a cold, dead cylinder by holding the back of your hand near the headers.  When I had a dead cylinder one header was 300 to 400 degrees Fahrenheit colder than the other.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: rg500gamma on March 27, 2016, 10:21:06 PM
Quote from: lucas on March 27, 2016, 10:11:36 PM
Rg500, it might not be necessary to buy new floats, you could try adjusting the ones you have
yes I will try that .  many thanks for the tip . :thumb:
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: rg500gamma on March 27, 2016, 10:22:58 PM
Quote from: lucas on March 27, 2016, 10:14:01 PM
Buddha, you might be able to tell if you have a cold, dead cylinder by holding the back of your hand near the headers.  When I had a dead cylinder one header was 300 to 400 degrees Fahrenheit colder than the other.
+2
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on March 28, 2016, 05:00:25 PM
OK issue fixed (I hope)

I set floats rather low (leaving too little fuel in the bowl) - Issue persisted.

Then I took off the floats and dropped em in gas - no sinky. All floaty. Grrrr

That last time when I pulled the carbs I tipped em over into the gas can (to empty the bowls - yea they say never to do that, but I have cleaned the carbs 300 times and opened it up 350 times the last 4 days, so I knew it was not going to get any more junk into the jets). And I blow tested it. It blowed through fine, and it nicely sealed up too.
Then I put it back on and tried it ... and vroom vroom.

Ergo - I either had a blocked vent to air from the carbs, or had a fuel line block ... or a gremlin climbed in and ruined it, and it ran away and its fine. If it ever comes back, I'll be in trouble.

Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: Big Rich on March 28, 2016, 05:32:15 PM
You need a gremlin bell. Ha.

Well, it's good the bike is up and running again!
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on March 29, 2016, 05:37:23 AM
It was bad for over a year, and it got suddenly unuseable. It would still idle perfectly.
I am leaning toward that top vent, cos a blocked fuel line wont flow better when the fuel useage is a tiny fraction of the max @ speed.
Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on March 29, 2016, 09:11:33 AM
And its gone back to the way it was before it completely went kaput.
I suspect something is clogging up the fuel passages.
Cos the last few times I pulled it apart, I got something in the fuel line that looked grey sediment like.
And not coincidentally, the tank is coated with POR15.

I suspect its coming loose.
I may re run it with that black tank I ran it a few yrs and try checking this one.

Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on March 29, 2016, 03:47:14 PM
Tank is clean. POR15 isn't coming off and gumming up
OK ... this is a first (for me) but someone has sent me a carb rack they said had a leak @ the butterflies. I used it for parts and tossed the carcass a few yrs ago. There was a leak in that @ the pivot.

Also how can that affect both carbs. I suspect whatever it is, is pertaining to both carbs. I'll trouble shoot more and post back.

Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on March 29, 2016, 04:14:07 PM
It also sounds/feels like the slides are coming up too fast.
Except, they have been @ this setup for 3k miles, and it was always acting up when cold, but 30 sec after trying to take off, it would get normal and stay fine till the next cold start.
Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: rg500gamma on March 29, 2016, 07:30:55 PM
Buddha  ,  will bike go up a  steep hill (  i.e. Colima road by me in whittier ca.)  at  60 m.p.h.  ? 
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on March 30, 2016, 10:25:25 AM
Quote from: rg500gamma on March 29, 2016, 07:30:55 PM
Buddha  ,  will bike go up a  steep hill (  i.e. Colima road by me in whittier ca.)  at  60 m.p.h.  ?
No It wont even go up a not too steep hill. It barely goes up my driveway.
Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: vipster76 on March 30, 2016, 01:13:43 PM
do you have another set of carbs to try?
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: rg500gamma on March 30, 2016, 06:11:30 PM
Quote from: vipster76 on March 30, 2016, 01:13:43 PM
do you have another set of carbs to try?
+1  really need to try a second set of carbs. if bike cannot go up a hill at 60 m.p.h.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on March 31, 2016, 03:56:35 AM
I know its the carbs. The thing is, the cable has been modded for an 01-02 carb set. So I'll need a 01 or later, but I am pretty good @ doing repairs 1 at a time and testing it out. How else do I learn ???
Anyway - My next stop is to slow down the slide's lift rate.
Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: lucas on March 31, 2016, 11:18:55 AM
Buddha, have you verified that you are getting spark to both cylinders?

Also if you check the temps of the exhaust tubes you might  narrow your search down to one side of the engine.  If you have a meat thermometer, kitchen thermometer, or even touching the exhaust tubes with an oven mitt and comparing the heat transferred by each.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on April 17, 2016, 06:24:31 AM
OK now that the weather is warmer (I guess) it seems to take for ever to warm up, and as it does it will start accepting throttle, it will rev to 3k before choking or gasping, a few mins later it will rev to 4k, few mins later 5k, few mins later 6k and 7 and so on.
I have not tried to ride it. It may still not make power. Revving is different form making power.
Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: lucas on April 17, 2016, 09:40:10 AM
You could try pulling the spark plug wires while it is idling to see if the rpms change.  While you're doing this you can visually verify that you are getting sparks by holding the open end of the wire close to the end of the spark plug and watching for arcs to jump out of the open plug wire.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on April 17, 2016, 10:22:52 AM
And this morning it didn't even seem to act up at all. I dunno what I even did to fix this, if I even fixed it.
Its got both cyls running, it falls on its face when you rev it but not lose a cyl, the thing just feels like its getting too much air, that was when it was acting up.
Its rather similar to the symptom when your slide rises too fast. But that usually happens 1/4 throttle and up, and you can get it to work right with slower opening of the throttle.

Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on April 18, 2016, 10:00:28 AM
It acted up a wee bit today. But 2 mins of idling after 1 min of choke - and it was running like a champ.
I am still a shade lean @ 1/2 throttle, cos I got rid of 1 washer from the needle. Gotta get back to the thing and put it back in.
Cool.
Buddha.
Title: Re: Will start and idle beautifully, but makes no power and will die when taking off
Post by: The Buddha on April 18, 2016, 07:06:17 PM
And on my way back from work today it acted up for a good 3-4 mins. But about 1/8th mile and 2 lights of screaming on choke later, it caught its breath and ran like the proverbial scalded bat out of hell - for a GS that is.

Is it possible the slide is lifting just a shade too fast when cold, but the bike is able to process the extra air and fuel when hot ????
I'll slow the slide down and try next.

Oh yea, float level is low too. Gotta fix it next try I'm in there.

Yea the valves are wee bit loose. But just a little racket, that's all. Compared to the Yoshi Tri oval howling away, its just a little music.

Cool.
Buddha.