HERE IS WHAT SHE LOOKED LIKE WHEN I STARTED>
Bought a 2005 GS500F (63000km) with a 2011 motor (15000km) in it. It had been absolutely crappily maintained. Looks Ok on the outside ( ish) but some aweful stuff.
Brake rear caliper had had a pad removed ( yes removed) on one side and the disc had ground into the caliper piston.
NONE of the lights ( blinkers included) worked except the headlight.
It had been crashed and the cases on BOTH sides had been ground. Seat had a tear.
Gear lever was bent.
Fairing cracked and scratches and in part poorly repaired.
Tyres were worn to the canvas ( haven't seen that on a motorcycle for years).
Gauges only partially worked.
Footpegs were worn through to the steel beneath.
Battery was screwed.
The plastic tank protector had lifted and water had got underneath and rusted severly the tank metal.
Fuel leaked out of the hose connections.
Rust and corrosion in all sorts of places.
Chain and sprockets were very sad indeed.
Handlebars were rusted.
Fork Seals leaking.
BUT it ran ( smoothly).
No play in the forks and steering head.
Looked straight
All the bits that mattered were there.
Only cost 1200bucks.
And was close enough I could drive up with the trailer and pick it up.
Alright what sort of project is this going to be?
First thought about cafe racer style. Maybe later , although it will be a MODERN cafe racer not a recycled old world one.
Tourer maybe? These are brilliant tourers although in dire need of fuel injection and a bit longer suspension travel. Easy to mount panniers as the rear is nice and strong.
If I was back in Townsville a Formula 3 racer? No track here.
At any rate I started to deconstruct her to see what she needed first.
Started to notice that because the thing had been designed so long ago and had been such a solid reliable bike and seller they hadn't stuffed around with it. Unusual in itself but it means that lots of small improvements hadn't been done.
If you think about it, if this bike had been designed a couple of years ago all sorts of things would be smaller or lighter or stronger or better performing. Now the big one is that it would be fuel injected. I don't have the money to go that route ( for the time being), so I decided the project would be to IMPROVE anything that could be . Lighter, stronger , better working or just plain interesting.
So here she is my " design update project" or betterfucationing ( almost as crap word as functionality).
Some paths in no particular order:
All LED lightening including headlight.
Seat cut to single seat ( for single seat registration purposes)
120/60 front tyre and 150/60 rear.
Upgrade shock
GVE forks, new seals and bushes. Small increase in travel. improve fork brace.
Electronic dash.
Alloy footpeg supports, alloy pegs, alloy gear and brake levers.
Lighter sprockets.
Grind side cases and cover with carbon/innegra covers and add hi density nylon knobs
ALL wheel spacers front and rear replaced with alloy ( when replacing bearings)
Chuck the rear mudguard and steel battery box and replace with composite set.
Replace shock with Suzuki 600 one as mentioned on this forum until I can afford a real shock.
Lighten every bolt possible everywhere on the bike.
Chuck the faux alloy top plate on the top triple clamp.
Remove as many of the steel brackets from the frame and replace with Al or composite.
Fit a carry rack where rear of seat was ( maybe).
Replace heavy tank cap with lighter aftermarket one.
So here goes...
:icon_eek: @ the rust where the tank protector was :sad:
You weren't kiddin' when you said there was rust!!!
Sad to see a GS beat up on like this but it has a new life now so hooray!
Ok . Basically working from rear to front.
Fitted 150/60 Bridgestone S20 that I had from a DRZ400 and hardly used. The narrow rim ( 3.5") means the tyre ends up about 146/65. You have to fabricate or bend the brake arm . I cut and rewelded it. Note the new tyre is 300gms LIGHTER than the stock worn one...
Hopeing there is enough clearance . Need to check when I can mount the chain properly:
Photo deleted as previous PB
Next replace the bearings and build alloy spacers. I replaced the axle with a new one because the bearings on the sprocket carrier had been turning on the axle. Also turned down excess metal from the sprocket carrier and replaced with a new lighter sprocket. Bought and fitted new shock cush rubbers. The new spacers are thicher to help increase the effective axle stiffness.
Almost 200g lighter and stiffer too boot... win!
Next the aweful axle/chain tensioners.
Built a new set of alloy one to increase the swingarm stiffness at the mounting point but spreading the load more. Also stiffer rear alloy plates and stainless adjusters. Unfortunately increase in weight but only 63g. Figured it was worth the extra stiffness and accuracy.
Forgot to get pics of the outer stainless adjuster indicators/axle washers. Only a few grams difference but also much stiffer and more accurate. They will show up later in whole rear pics.
Here is a tricky little one that most people forget. The spacer in the swingarm pivot. Big piece of steel that can be replaced by Al and improve stiffness again.
Nice to see your handiwork. How do you keep the plates in place on the end of the swing arm, did you cut a chamfer or step on one side?
Also how do you figure that your swing arm pivot is stiffer than the original piece? Not to challenge you but to learn more.
The aluminium spacer in the swingarm pivot it a bigger diameter ( ie thicker ) than the original and a tighter tolerence to the pivot axle, so should be stiffer. It is high silicon Al so is stiffer than a std grade of Al. To do it really properly I need to remove one pivot bearing and make it full width of the hole. If I taper it from both sides so the middle is the thickest that should make it a bit lighter than a full cyl. would be and stiffer than this one. Next time as I need to buy new bearings to do that.
The adjuster stops are step cut ( very badly my mill is pretty crappy).
Always happy to answer questions and take constructive criticism and seriously consider suggestions.
Here is a real eye opener. The footplates , controls and levers are vintage 80's. And HEAVY. See the weights on the following pics. You can lose as almost much weight as changing to a LiFePO4 battery or changing the exhaust system. 2.1 kgs lighter!!!
Made some Carbon boot plates, aluminium mount plates, bought some alloy pegs ( I am discarding these as I don't think they are strong enough and I have got some other folding Al ones coming.
Made some Al levers to bolt to the existing gear and brake stubs ( I cut) and added ball bearings to the brake pivot.
Here is the temp gear lever. I know I can get an aftermarket alloy one and will do so at a later date. For the time being it will do. Half the weight of the steel one and WAY stiffer ( and in this case not bent and worn amazingly ( don't know what he used for boots!. The original rubber footpegs were worn right down as well. The pics are some I got when I bought a second hand set to get a rear brake caliper.
Tank needed urgent attention so sanded, put on high quality rust converter and undercoated. Will return to it when closer to body work stage.
Net purchased a chinese machined petrol cap and put it on to help protect the tank interior until I get to it properly.
This looks like a fun thread. I look forward to seeing progress. Great job. :thumb:
Trying a little experiment with the front mudguard mount/fork brace. From looking around this forum I have noticed it needs an upgrade because of reliability issues and a few have made thick Al ones to help stiffen the wet spaghetti forks.
I thought I would try a development of a fork brace I started making a few years ago and marry it with the carbon "hidden" mudguard braces. For a while I was making sandwiched All each side and fibreglass /composite in the centre. It proved very reliable and reasonably stiff . Then the availability of carbon got better and cheaper so I started making carbon guards with 10 to 12 layers under the guard to act as a fork brace. It worked well and looked stock ( especially useful in racing classes where you have to have the mudguard and are not allowed to fit a brace).
Looking at the mount on the GS , it spoke to me of a Al brace ( like many others) then I thought that a sandwich Al/CARBON one might be worth a try.
Sooo, I made 2 plates and sandwiched 8 layers of std weave carbon and 2 layers of innegra and clamped them together with as much force as the bolts could manage.
I have taken a pic with the excess composite cleaned off but before I cleaned it up and paint it as it is easier to see the carbon layer. No idea how I am going to comparative test it against the original steel one, but I bet it doesn't elongate and break the mount holes...
Mate love your work! And good to see another Queenslander too :thumb:
I have a mate I ride with who would be impressed with your weight savings. He has an 82 Katana he is aiming to have under 200kgs wet weight if I remember correctly. All his axles/bolts etc. that he can do safely are titanium. Many non structural items have been drilled out. He has BST carbon wheels as well as Ohlins and Brembo front and back. If he can save a couple of grams here and there, he'll do it.
Which Katana? What displacement. I'd like a 650 if I could have found one.
Actually the brace plate is one spot where the new part weighted more than the original ( by 80gms) but even if I had made a new steel one to avoid the hole breakage problem it would have weighed more.
His is a 750 frame but has an 1100... it's actually about 1260cc though.
The 650's seem to have quite the following too!
I'm building an 1100 in a 750 frame at the moment, but weight savings aren't my goal :D
If you're adding strength and structure with the brace plate, then extra weight isn't a bad thing at all!
" If you're adding strength and structure with the brace plate, then extra weight isn't a bad thing at all!"
My thoughts entirely. Either way to get the reliability it would have had to be heavier. I might be able to make up the difference in the carbon mudguard.
I like the 550 best but they are almost nonexistant in Australia. Almost no difference between them except the displacement/ hp though I like the silver motor better. The 550 would qualify as a LAMS bike!
Yep I don't think I've ever seen a 550 here... plenty in the UK though interestingly enough...
Are you guys leaving the forks on or going to USD's. Might be interested in you old forks/ wheels brakes if you are.
Nah my Kat is staying with the stock running gear, I don't like modern fat wheels/tyres, they just feel wrong to me...
getting there greg :thumb: love projects where the vast majority of of parts are machined up. cant believe the standard rearsets w/pegs come to 2.6kg... thats f%$king nuts. i'll be curious to see how much you manage to shave from the bike. seriously though whoever ran the bike into that kind of condition needs a slap over the head :icon_rolleyes: :icon_eek: :dunno_white:
Realize I haven't posted for a while. Plenty more pics to come. I have been having trouble getting a throttle cable. Ordered on and it can broken. Emailed the supplier and he isn't replying. Forks are fiitted with new seals, bushed, YSS valve emulators and new springs ( wrong wayy too soft supplied by YSS Australia. Won't be buying from them again) and on. Machined down as well. Fork brace is on. New steering head bearings. They were available as over the counter item from the local bearing store which saved a fortune. Regreased with tefgel and anti-sieze compound.
New alloy centre wavey disc is on. Doing some more work on the swingarm.
Carbs are cleaned ( they were pretty good) vacuum switch removed . Not sure this last bit works but will try it. Rejetted pilots, mids and 150 mains but may go back to the 130's and check. Can't check upper jetting until bike is actually going of course.
Hel brake lines front and back . Relaced the whole front brake lever assembly as the original was stuffed. Corroded and the sight glass was cracked. Some pics next post.
Edited to replace photos that PB stuffed. New regime won't allow more than 4 so a few cannot be posted.OK here are some pics so far.
Starter motor cover replacement. New is aluminium:
Front brake. Remember the old one is actually lighter than it should be as it is so worn:
removed extra metal on the shoulder of the reluctor shaft:
Metal removed fron oil vent cover and suck bolt heads:
New shortened muffler and stainless hanger . Original passenger peg/exhaust mount has been removed both sides:
Front end. New Hel cable, new mastercyl, rebuilt revalved resprung forks. New frok brace. Redone steerer and top triple clamp structure:
Finished carbon/aluminium fork brace:
( deleted photo)
More pics
Stuffed steerer bearings. Fair enough as the frame had done over 50000km:
Suzuki 650 rear shock ( us calls them Katanas). Cleaned and repainted with alloy collets made and machined adjuster:
YSS fork valve emulators and the cups I made:
New lighter aluminium spring spacers and internal preload adjusters:
Removed the fake top triple clamp and barmounts. Made new barmounts. Ignore the bars as I still haven't decided for certain what's going on :
Both side covers had scrape damage. I machined then smooth and made carbon/innegra covers and the reluctor cover I added a Hidensity nylon slider to help protect it:
Side cover Right:
Finally got back to the project.
Made a carbon/innegra battery and electrical box and chucked the stock rear mudguard and made a high carbon/innegra tail light and license plate mount and guard.
Wired in the Acewell speedo/tacho. Interesting is that the 2005 GS500 does not have a usual blinker wiring. when I wired in the new instrument the blinkers would work on the right but not the left??? Checked the wiring diagram and the blinkers use a 2 wire blinker switching that runs on a diferential voltage between the left and right. Works fine with an incandsecnt bulb but the led will only work in one direction of course ( it is a diode after all). Solved it by leaching voltage off the actual blinker wires. The panel indicator LED draws such a tiny current the blinkers don't notice.
Added a LED oil light as well. Used the Acewell connectors to the stock wiring.
Speedo connection is not yet wired and connected up yet, as I have to figure whether to mount it front or back and how.
I will do a write up on the Acewell wiring if anyone is interested with the wiring I used.
Big difference in weight between the ols gauges and the new, especially on the forks.
Acewell wiring loom
Acewell with all the pretty lights lit up.
Acewell in position on the F fairing
Battery/electricals box and rear guard:
Making some hose reducers to get around the ridiculous different size ends on the fuel hoses. I can use two different hose sizes and not have to buy the Suzy propriety different end ones. I can get better quality hose as well.
Great project!
Why even bother buying a bike???
With your terrific machining skills, you could have CNC'd a whole custom bike for yourself! :D
A project mainly to see where improvements can be made to an older design. My machine skills are a bit...er...amateur. Lathe is not a high ticket item and I have trouble getting decent tool bits.
Built a few "buckets" when I was racing. Just like tinkering.
But the whole point of project threads is so people can see what they might be able to do or improve on.
Still wish there was some way to get it fuel injected.
Finally got around to painting the upper fairing, tank and rear cowl. Got them on. Redid the aweful fuel lines . Now it won't run or idle properly and it did before I put the airbox and tank on. So now I have to take it all apart and check everything again (of course!).
Still building the wrecked lower fairing . Fibreglass, innegra and carbon epoxy. Extended the bottom rear pan ( guess that's just habit from building racing ones cause they have to have a belly pan).
Taken with my phone so the pics suck a bit.
This shows the colour a bit better. The washed out bright bits are from the reflective tape and the flash.
Really like that blue color :bstar: and I'm looking forward to seeing the fairings when done!
Yup, love the colour combo, looking great!
Had it from a race bike a few years ago. It just happens to be a not too far for Maverick Vinales Suzuki colour so I figured it wasn't too bad a use for it.
Got it together enough to run and the left cyl is running over 100deg C hotter than the right so I have a problem. Balanced the carbs and still the same. Checked the right spark plug and it is sparking ( although pretty pathetic) . Might try the stick coils I bought . Right one first to see if it improves.
Quote from: gregjet on October 13, 2016, 01:35:39 AM
Got it together enough to run and the left cyl is running over 100deg C hotter than the right so I have a problem.
That's a very interesting troubleshooting technique. :thumb:
Hopefully it's ignition, but while you're in there it might pay to do a compression test, just in case.
Did a compression test when I bought it home . It was pretty good then. It was standing for a while so possible stuck valve though, so I might do another. My comp gauge is a car one so I need to make a proper adapter so the test is less ...er...haphazard.
A tight intake valve could cause poor compression as well as carbon build-up on the valve seat (which is what is causing my bike to get a top end rebuild as we speak).
I'd want to check it, just for the peace of mind and to rule it out. In fact, after my current experience with an impossible to tune motorcycle, I think I'll never again buy a used bike without doing a compression test on it first.
Spent most of a day on the temp difference.
Fixed ( mostly). turned out the brand new pilot jet had got clogged in the right cyl. Maybe crap in the tank? resynched the carbs. Still to redo the idle/pilot jet mix, but at both 2 and a half turns out, the IR thermometer is giving only 20degC difference at 480 deg c on the left cyl. It may get closer when I get a chance to do the mix screw again.
Otherwise I suspect valve clearance, so once the macro work on the fairing and the speedo mount is done , I will attack the valves. Quite prepared to strip the motor and do a grind if necessary. I think the rings are OK.
Fairing lower is slowly coming together . The problem with male moulds is they are always a bit bigger and getting stuff to line up , as well as requiring a lot more finish work.
I have been a bit unmotivated re: project but steadily working on the lower fairing. I am at the figuring how to mount it stage ( it is a bit different from the stock lower) and was going to resin in an overlap at the top of the lower, then thought I wonder what it would look like pop rivetted tangs instead. So I did. Used 3/16 stainless steel pop rivets and 5mm thread tapped the tanges to accept the original fairing uppper bolts. I like it. Gives it an old style race look. I will clean the rivets back to unpainted when I paint the rest of the fairing so they show. Have to fair the fairing now ...ugh! Prickley time again.
Not a great photo but you get the idea:
Great build! It's crazy how you're fabricating so many parts for the GS, the forum will definitely benefit from your skill set. That's either a whole lot of talent or you're paying a lot of money to experts working on your bike. :cheers:
I never heard of carbon/innegra but the stuff looks great. Can you explain the schematics on wiring?
"Checked the wiring diagram and the blinkers use a 2 wire blinker switching that runs on a diferential voltage between the left and right. Works fine with an incandsecnt bulb but the led will only work in one direction of course ( it is a diode after all). Solved it by leaching voltage off the actual blinker wires. The panel indicator LED draws such a tiny current the blinkers don't notice.
Added a LED oil light as well. Used the Acewell connectors to the stock wiring.
Speedo connection is not yet wired and connected up yet, as I have to figure whether to mount it front or back and how.
I will do a write up on the Acewell wiring if anyone is interested with the wiring I used."
Quote from: gregjet on September 03, 2016, 01:02:34 PM
Still wish there was some way to get it fuel injected.
Maybe microsquirt plus a ton of work like fabbing a manifold and sourcing throttle bodies or steal the entire system from another fuel injected twin like an ER-6n or CB500F? Or there is a kit that may work:
http://www.ecotrons.com/products/400cc_to_800cc_engine_fuel_injection_kit/
I've thought about this quite a bit. Way easier to just make the carbs work right or buy a different bike.
Mr Biggz:
Glassing (etc) I have been doing a long time ( started building surfboards in the late 60's. Built boats, boards, motorcycle bashplates, side covers, belly pans , fairings, seats etc etc. over the years but I am NOT a professional.
I have been working with carbon fibre since the price has come down to a "OK" price. BTW , be prepared for it to drop even furthur. The chinese have developed a new very fast efficient carbon fibre manufacturing process.
Innegra in a new VERY interesting fibre. A woven polypropylene. Lighter than glass and kevlar ( not as light as carbon), more compliant lay up than any other cross woven fabric, almost as strong as carbon and kevlar, impact resistance almost as good as kevlar, and cheaper than ALL of them. Epoxy preferred resin. Best for non finished layups or between a fibre that can be finished. Almost as strong as carbon BUT doesn't shatter like carbon under impact. Still experimenting with it. Strong but not extremely stiff though.
MR72.
In reality as this is a modernization project I really SHOULD be FI'ing it. It is just too expensive. I use to race an ER6 and the biggest problem would be getting a fuel pump into the tank. The fuel pump is directly controlled by the ECU so matching issues will also be a problem. The squirter also has problems beside price. I considered making a single throttle body and a plenum chamber feeding both cy, but the huge intake valve timing overlap would make for a set of problems for flow with a single injector.
Quote from: gregjet on October 26, 2016, 12:46:30 PM
Mr Biggz:
Glassing (etc) I have been doing a long time ( started building surfboards in the late 60's. Built boats, boards, motorcycle bashplates, side covers, belly pans , fairings, seats etc etc. over the years but I am NOT a professional.
I have been working with carbon fibre since the price has come down to a "OK" price. BTW , be prepared for it to drop even furthur. The chinese have developed a new very fast efficient carbon fibre manufacturing process.
Innegra in a new VERY interesting fibre. A woven polypropylene. Lighter than glass and kevlar ( not as light as carbon), more compliant lay up than any other cross woven fabric, almost as strong as carbon and kevlar, impact resistance almost as good as kevlar, and cheaper than ALL of them. Epoxy preferred resin. Best for non finished layups or between a fibre that can be finished. Almost as strong as carbon BUT doesn't shatter like carbon under impact. Still experimenting with it. Strong but not extremely stiff though.
MR72.
In reality as this is a modernization project I really SHOULD be FI'ing it. It is just too expensive. I use to race an ER6 and the biggest problem would be getting a fuel pump into the tank. The fuel pump is directly controlled by the ECU so matching issues will also be a problem. The squirter also has problems beside price. I considered making a single throttle body and a plenum chamber feeding both cy, but the huge intake valve timing overlap would make for a set of problems for flow with a single injector.
Thanks for the write up and education on glassing. I have a better understanding of it now, I wonder what the Chinese came up with, as it pertains to Carbon Fiber manufacturing.
Quote from: gregjet on October 26, 2016, 12:46:30 PM
In reality as this is a modernization project I really SHOULD be FI'ing it. It is just too expensive. I use to race an ER6 and the biggest problem would be getting a fuel pump into the tank. The fuel pump is directly controlled by the ECU so matching issues will also be a problem. The squirter also has problems beside price. I considered making a single throttle body and a plenum chamber feeding both cy, but the huge intake valve timing overlap would make for a set of problems for flow with a single injector.
Yeah no kidding. a 180-degree twin is going to basically require two injectors but you might get away with one throttle body, one TPS, etc. But that'd be a microsquirt project, so you'd have to work out everything regarding fuel mapping, probably add an oxygen sensor, etc.
As far as putting a fuel pump in the tank, I don't think that's such a big deal. That's an electrical part that if you were into getting the project to work should be pretty easy to deal with, you just mount it barely below the tank, likely making a bracket that bolts where the tank petcock goes so you have a fixed length of hose of like an inch from the tank petcock to the fuel pump (and a T junction).
The hardest part of a FI conversion FOR ME is welding up the exhaust to add an oxygen sensor and then tuning the ECU mapping. That, and if you have to machine in a notch on the intake cam to trigger the ECU. Either you start with FI from a 180-degree 500cc parallel twin like a CB500F that runs in closed loop so you can sort of drop it in and go, or you have to go through a year's worth of mapping programming with a programmable ECU like a microsquirt. If using ER6n FI you'd have to probably adjust the fuel pressure anyway (thus the OE fuel pump is not as important) to keep it from flooding on cold start or running way too rich in other open-loop conditions like WOT.
Like I say, easier to just replace the bike.
For a half a minute I thought about whether something more dumb could be done... steal TBI from a tiny 80s car like a Toyota Tercel that is all analog using a vane-type AFM that's easy to modify, no TPS at all, can run all day long in open loop and truly the only thing to adjust is fuel pressure. But you run into the 180-degree-twin issue. You'd just have to fab an intake and source a throttle body. But I'm not sure an '80s automotive FI is really any improvement over '90s MC carbs.
In the end I decided I needed new skills and dug into learning how these carbs work. Cheaper and easier in the end.
Adding an "O2" sensor I have done before ( on an ER6N exhaust as it happens). Turn an adapter with a 18mm male thread for the pipe and a 14mm female thread for the 14mm sensor. Tap the pipe, with sealing compound on the thread and land screw it in. Spot weld the adapter to the pipe. Doesn't need a full seal weld ( I ain't no boilermaker unfortunately).
If you use a sufficient volume plenum you should be able to use a single injector throttle body and use the pulse timing to meter for a full two cycles ( I think). Definitely only need one TPS no matter which way you go.
Which ever , I can to a similar conclusion that it would probably not be a viable addition to the project. Not worried about "getting a better bike" , as the whole point is playing with this one is to see what I can do. I have other bikes to ride. This is my guinea pig ( more techically a cavey...)
I wonder if anyone has tried lifting one out of a Honda CB500 or the 300 even.
But I cant imagine the varying temps of an aircooled motor would help.
Cool.
Buddha.
If you can get into the ecu and map it on a dyno should be reasonably easy to do using a Honda CBR500 if the 500 is a 180deg crank ( no idea if it is). The GS isn't going to breath as well as the CBR so injector/pump limitation is unlikely. The biggest problem is the intank fuel pump which is an integral part of the EFI. If you can get an extrernal pump that delivers the same pressure it my be fine but modern EFI quite often controls the fuel pumps as well in some systems.
I am pretty much come to the conclusion it isn't economic to pursue.
Not helped by the fact that the round slide carb kit for the GS500 has gone up 60% in 6 months. so I suspect the carbs are staying.
Well finally getting back to this project almost a year after I started it.
Summer was VERY long and ridiculously hot in the shed , then a ton of stuff happened. Well today and yeaterday it rained and stopped me doing all the stuff I SHOULD be doing, so I went back and started fiddling again. Did a bit more work on the lower fairing. Finally added some brackets and clamps for the electronic speedo pickup and wired it in.
A little update. Hopefully more work to follow and get the fairing finished.
There's a heck of a lot of awesome things going on here for a bike with no direction/category. Digging the lightening. :bowdown:
Also:
Holy hell! on that tank protector damage.
info on brakes? ty
The tank protector damage is even worse than I first thought. It has been rust converted, zinc painted, painted, started bubbling again. sanded, rust converted AGAIN, zinc painted, repainted and now it is starting to bubble again. I don't know what happened in the first place,but it was nasty.
What do you want to know about the brakes? front disc is from S3 performance so has their logo on it. Don't know the actual manufacturer. Reasonably lightweight but , as yet haven't ridden it , performance is yet to be determined. Had to change both discs because they were way under spec. Rear is a 2nd hand slotted gs500 disc. Not really happy with it but will pass roadworthy. If I don't like it I will get a better lighetr one.
Is the front same as factory, only lighter? How much did it run? I'd be curious to hear riding impressions...I'm a huge believer of eliminating unsprung weight.
On forum page 2 is the front discs were weighed but the PB stuff up meant they were deleted. Will repost below. The spacers ( outer right, centre and a spacer to replace the speedo drive) are Al ones I have turned. The speedo cable is of course gone. The forks have been slightly turned down. Most ( not all) of the steel brackets on the front have been swapped for Al ones. Fork internels have been lightened as well ( lighter shorter springs, Al spring spacers). Small extra weight added as Gold Valve Emulators and the fork brace ( AL carbon fibre sandwich). I will go to a 120/60 front as well which will be very slightly lighter .
Still working on it ( forever?) and it isn't registered yet so it will be a while before I get to ride it. If Sally sells her KTM Duke 690 I will have to hurry up the project so she can have a bike. ( edit 3/2/18: Sally has sold her Duke so project is restarted)
OK project re-invigorated as Sally has sold here Duke 690.
Bottom fairing finished. Will post a pic when I mount it on the bike.
Stick coils from an early ford ( cut shorter and made plug connectors to fit.) used, because they match with the output from the ECU well. Bit clumsy but work well. Had to make some supports to hold them. Wired in using existing low tension wires( with extenders for the time being until satisfied they are working properly, then I will single connection them, Found I had to re-do the connection for the Acewell tacho as signal was wrong. Ended up taking signal from ONE coil from the ECU side instead of the bike's tach signal wire. Made a 1 megohm connector piece to go inline. Again when satisfied i will simplify the wiring.
Works very well and idle is definitely smoother and starts very easy.
Next the fuel pump and simplify the fuel lines and add a quick disconnect.
Pic of the inline piggyback resistor for the Acewell tach signal.
Ok the coils work like a beauty. Seems to run much smoother at idle, revs out easy and clean ( no load), returns to idle without stalling and will now idle at a ridiculously slow rpm, if I wanted it to.
Next. Fuel pump:
All fuel lines removed. All vacuum lines removed. Fuel tap removed.
Tank petcock removed.
Right start with the fuel tank petcock.
Disassembly showed the o ring was perished. The upper seal was useable. Because I am only using one of the outlets I checked the flow through and found BOTH galleries are partially restricted. Wht put 8mmID lines on a bike and have a tap that only is 40% of the crossection? See the pic down the tap. Drilled it out to consistant bore. Realigned the fuel filter the other way around so it flows to the bottom ( no reserve).
Turned down some brass to make a hat plug and spoldered it in to the shorter outlet.(pic)
The O ring was stuffed (See pic) so replaced it with an Oring from an automotive air conditioning set. The Repco guy assured me it was fuel resistant. IF you know otherwise please post here and I will chuck it and go hunting again ( no easy to find apparently 10mm id, 14mm , 2mm thick od, round cx).
Cleaned the grooves and channels and replaced and teflon lubed everything. Some liguid gasket on threads and mating surface.
On to the fuel pump and lines. Because the outlet for the tank and the carb inlet is 9mm nom. and the pump is 2x7mm nom. I made 2 reducers the mainlines will be 7mm( id). Because the pump draws a neg pressure and pushes a positive pressure I suspect I can run the smaller lines sucessfully.
The pump is from a yamaha Vtwin 650 and/or a Kawasaki 650 V twin cruiser, with very similar carbs , so I am pretty sure it should be a good match. I mounted it as high as I can get to reduce static pressure when no running. It is up under the front of the tank. Gets airflow from the front there as well to keep it cool.
I used pressure fuel line in all spots and screw clamps ( not plier clips).
I have removed the air solenoid so I used the switched line of that for the relay signal. Wired the power side direct to the battery and the switched power side to the pump. Common earth for the switch and the pump. In the pic the pump power is the bright yellow one. It is the only long wire run added. The pump only draws 2 to 4 amps so all should be fine.
Tested it with a funnel and it primes and switches off on on with demand flow fine. Have to put the tank line with quick connect on next.
Quote from: gregjet on February 03, 2018, 02:31:01 PM
Stick coils from an early ford ( cut shorter and made plug connectors to fit.) used, because they match with the output from the ECU well.
By "ECU" I presume you mean the stock Suzuki igniter? Just verifying you didn't replace that with some later-bike ECU.
I'm very interested in this, sounds like you put coils-on-plugs, which is an awesome idea. But getting them to mount sounds tricky to me. Can you go into more detail about exactly which COP you used? you say "old Ford" but maybe you can give a Ford part number for x-ref? Like, I can go to Autozone and buy a pair of them and do the mod on my bike, but I have to know what to buy.
And you say "matched the output of the ECU" but how do you know that? The igniter just switches 12V to ground, right? So it would seem any ordinary automotive coil-on-plug from >2000 cars would work just fine. And I also assume you mean that you are batch-firing them, wasted spark, right? Jumpering the coil output? How are you controlling dwell? Or did you bother checking?
Sorry for all the questions, but this is something I'm very interested in doing.
--EDIT:
Noticing all of this aluminum-angle fab you are doing, maybe you would be interested in investigating "aluminum brazing" which might clean up some of that work. I am looking into trying it myself. Seems if it's not heavily structural it could work well especially as an alternative to filling gaps with something like JB Weld (which in my case never seems to work nearly as well as advertised). Just an idea. I mean, welding aluminum is one thing, but for the cost of a $15 torch and a roll of aluminum wire you might get 90% of the benefit.
Lots of questions. OK here we go.
I call the electronic unit an ECU because on the bikes with only one pickup the "ECU' does all the spark control for both cyl. And it uses the Throttle position sensor as a input variable. It isn't just a simple igniter ( in my book). The second cyl firing is calculated not triggered. All the timing and timing mod is done electronically. The pickup is relly not much more than a crank position sensor ( ok it reads the rise/fall slopes as well for advance )usually I don't know for certain on this bike.
No idea which Ford they are on. I did it a while ago but I think I researched the resistances and coil multiplier and this type of CoP was the closest to the stock new coil. I know later coils have a lower multiplier ratio, because they use steeper trigger slopes. and don't work as well ( read not well at all). Also these are TWO wire only so don't have the extra circuitry for the later control. I bought it from an autostore, so no idea what vehicle it fits ( they would be listed for Aussie vehicles anyway). I had a good look, but can't find the stuff that came with the coils, though I suspect any part number would be an instore part number as it was the stores own brand. What I can tell you is that as far as I know these are the only coilover that LOOK like these. It wasn't my preferred shape as it interfers with the frame and I had to mod the lower insulator and make my own spark plug connector ( turned down a Al rod and drilled a hole basically). IF you can find a better thinner shape, one it would be a big improvement, but because of the angle and the proximity of the frame it can't be too long.
Remember in a car most CoP's are supported by the engine ( usually the tappet cover) and especially nowdays are bolted in so it pretty much goes with the territory that some sort of support will be needed. They are in later motorcycles as well.
If I am happy with them when I can finally put some load on the engine, I might go looking for a better thinner set with a spark end conmector that uses the bare threads not the little screwon cap.
The "igniter" doesn't just switch to ground. It puts a multiple high transient waveform through the coil as far as it know. It also does the spark mapping. As it uses the TPS, I suspect it also changes other waveform envelope stuff ( who knows). I know on some early 2000 injected SVC650's that the ecu also retards and reduces the number of pulses per individual spark cycle at 5000rpm for noise reduction reasons ( amongst other stuff that makes it a performance problem including EFI changes). This GS is from around the time that Suzuki was doing this, so who knows.
I discovered an amazing Canadian Al "brazing" rod recently that I intend to experiment with ( HTS2000). Much of this bike is prototype stuff and proof of concept, so will get an improved version at a later time ( yeah sure...). I use Al cause it is light and easy to work with mainly. Often I will make Carbon fibre /innegra stuff for brackets, but for the fuel pump, it will be Al to act as a heat sink.
If you do it , post. I will be very interested to see how others go about it. Especially if you can find proper Coil overs as opposed to my "coil on top". My biggest worry is they won't handle the high revs of a motorcycle and may leak or have some sort of unwanted resonance electrically once the revs are up.
Great stuff, thanks for the explanations Greg.
I built my own coil-on-plugs rig for my Miata which worked brilliantly up to 7500 rpm or so where the rev limiter kicked in. However, the really had too much dwell which was supposed to be a real problem, predicted to cause the COPs to die an early death due to heat. IDK, I put about 80K miles on them revving it to the limiter nearly every gearshift and never had any problem at all, but who knows? It was also wasted spark 2x2 design. Those COPs were from a Toyota Corolla, chosen simply because they fit the spark plug wells in between the cams on the Miata cam cover. I used an aluminum plate with bolts in it connected between the cam humps to hold them down. Literally the job of affixing them was far and away the hardest part of the entire project... initially i JB-welded bolts to the cam cover and that worked for about a month...
Anyway, I have a couple of old COPs from another Mazda in the garage, might fiddle with them, but the reality is on a GS500 as you have found there simply isn't nearly enough clearance to fit an auto COP in there, but that's because (as again I'm sure you've found) the spark plug wells in twin-cam automobile heads (and >2cyl motorcycles) tend to be deep holes and most of the length of the COP is simply to extend the electrode down to the plug. I would think simply finding the lowest-profile coil on plug (shortest) would be preferable. But I'm not sure the value of COPs is enough to counteract the packaging constraints of cramming them on the GS500's cylinder head.
You have a Mk2 ('01+) GS500 I presume; I'm not sure how the igniter fires the alternate cylinder but if I was designing it, I'd figure that the output of the signal generator is a sine wave as it rotates so I could produce top and bottom side pulses by DC-coupling the signal generator (ground and +v) and use a dual comparator to trigger at the low and high side a few degrees before TDC figuring the sinusoidal voltage will pretty reliably be the same at the same angle on every cycle. Anyway, the rest, I have no idea. I'd have to put one on an oscilloscope and reverse engineer it. But as simple as everything else is on a GS500, I would have guessed it's a simple switched output. I guess the igniter in the Mk2 is different in a lot of ways from the Mk1.
Again, thanks for the discussion, very interesting. I'm especially interested because you suggest the idle can be set very low which to me is a good thing since it's more reliable to meter fuel at idle with the throttle plate completely closed.
The total length of my CoP's was MUCH longer but the majority of these ones was soft polymer. I shortened the spring and clip and cut the soft pieces down. Fits tight but fine. The biggest problem is all the weight is at the top so I had to fabricate a bracket to hold the tops. Again used Al becuase it can act as a furthur heat sink.
The "dwell" from the ECU is not a simple single wave. As far as I know it is a series of high transient pulses ( not quite square wave, not quite saw, but definitely NOT sine wave). It alows much high spark energies from lower input voltages and currents, and you can tailor the spark duration by expanding the envelope ( I think that is how the Suzi one works). It a 05 with an 2011 motor (put in by previous owner). So there isn't a "dwell" as such although older type dwell meters will measure it as a long dwell, as they tend to measure the entire envelope not individual pulses. A scope will show a totally different shape. No I don't have a scope. Wish I did. I believe you can get a USB one for a pc/laptop and prob even for a phone nowdays.
The ecu on the later models uses the reluctor on the crank end as a crank position reference only for each cyl . ALL other spark mapping is done by the ECU. I am guessing there is a waste spark because there is no cam input to know when the crank is on a power stroke. With the cam timing on this bike it would in the exhaust stroke anyway so irrevelant. Thinking about it the fact that the pulses are asymmetric would allow the ECU to know when to fire the second pulse. Long relative duration interpulse fire the cyl one, short duration interval fire the cyl 2. ( I stand to be corrected by someone that actually knows for certain). Could do it with a simple logic gate.
The voltage rise will be faster as the rpm increases, as the reluctor goes from, away, to close, faster. That makes the magnetic field rise faster. Honda used that fact to drive the advance on it's Vt 250 in the 80's. The greater the transient, slope the higher the secondary voltage output . That's why the square/saw wave output pulses can drive a high voltage with lower input coil current. It is also why coil overs turned up. The higher frequencies ( effective) means more electro magnetic leakage. Put the coils and spark"leads" on top of the plug and stuff all places to leak ( infact the coil around the plug ceramic helps produce a positive feed forward ( I think) in the plug electrode wire. I am happy to be corrected but that's what it looks like to me.
I didn't set the idle as low as it would run. Past experience says that usually makes for choppy throttle at low rpm to off idle. Set it at factory. Only motorcycle I ever set lower were off road and trials bikes ( dead idle)
Ok after several months of experiments and machining a lot of inline adapters the fuel pump saga has hit a serious snag.
THE FUEL PUMP WILL NOT WORK ON THESE CARBS.
Primes beautifully, shut off well, so no need for the vacuum tap. Nice simple single line to the pump from the tank ( ok an adapter and a different tap in the end). Nice single line ( with more adapters ) from the pump to the carbs. You will have seen the pictures.
BUT the rubber needle/seats for the floats will not handle even the slight pressure from the low volume/low pressure pumps. Cannot stop them overflowing. It needs solid metal needle/seat shutoff. Too much work. You set the levels and start the pump and the fuel just flows straight past. Yes I could put a pressure regulator in the circuit. But that defeats the whole point of a simple fuel line setup.
So off with the pump and back to the simplification without a pump. new tap with a std 8mm outlet to the aweful fuel tap. Prime and on only, no reserve. On is in the reserve position, std on is blanked. So fuel tap has one in and one out.
Bought a lunch box and will have to make a feed in for the crankcase breather. Photos when I get it done.
I ran my pressure with the RPM [electric tach on the 05 made it easy] idle .5 PSI, WOT 4PSI. I think the port injection someone did a few years ago is a better way to go however. but even more work.
Injection IS the best way, but I don't have that much money for a project bike. That was my original idea. 180deg cranks don't help find a existing donor ( though I think the ER6/ninja may be a canidate).
So how did you use the tach. I have a spare tach wire as I use an electronic speedo/tach that bleeds from the COP coil inputs. Did you use the signal, a counter and an amplification circuit? Or gate the output from the tach?
Quote from: gregjet on June 01, 2016, 03:54:02 PM
Here is a tricky little one that most people forget. The spacer in the swingarm pivot. Big piece of steel that can be replaced by Al and improve stiffness again.
That spacer sleeve in the SA pivot - I thought it serves as the inner race for that needle bearing ? Maybe not, maybe I'm thinking a different bike.
Cool.
Buddha.
No , the spacer sits inside the steel inner "race" . The swingarm bolt passes through all 3 ( spacer and 2 "races").
If I could have got the needle bearings out without damaging them, I would have made a different shaped centre spacer. It would have been a bigger diameter centre to help stiffen the bolt. As it was I had to get it through the stock bearing centre ( less race). Like 2 truncated cones joined at the bases.
OK she is roadworthable. Up for sale for $1800 if someone wants it. Anyone in the Bundaberg area ( Rockhampton to Brisbane I can deliver) I can deliver. Not regd or roadworthy certificate. I need a new project.
Good work Greg... although I think you may be missing some finished pic's :D
Good point PeteGS.
Very very nice!!! I think I said it earlier in the thread but I'll say it again... I love the color :bstar:
Congrats on the finished project :cheers:
Yep nice work indeed Greg, and yeah that paint scheme is spot on for a GS :thumb:
Had some nice blue but tried to get it sort of in the Rizla Suzuki direction. That's as close as I could makew it with the colours I had. It is a nice blue though. Good unisex colour.