Not-so-secretly I am trying to ease my wife onto a two-wheel vehicle. She's not going to try and ride an ordinary motorcycle, but she's at least mentioned that she thinks "classic Italian" style scooters (Vespa Stella and the like) look cute and fun. No way she's going to let me just go out and buy one and expect her to ride it. But if there was already one at our house? well she might one day try to take it for a spin around the cul-de-sac.
So Wednesday someone posted a "vintage-style" Chinese scooter that "turns over but doesn't start" for sale for the whopping sum of $80 on Craigslist. I emailed about it but as usual got no response. Yesterday the same was listed, price lowered to $50. I texted, arranged to go look at it. It's an hour drive from my house. So I unfolded the trailer and hooked it up to the Jeep and we went off to check this thing out, figuring, how can you go wrong for $50? I mean, this is not a motorcycle like a GS500. This is something where you can buy a brand new cylinder head for $60 and a new carburetor for $35. How hard can it be to get it to run? We're not talking about a real vintage Italian scooter with unobtanium parts and a 1:1 fix-to-ride time ratio. And I figured if I could tinker with it and fix it and make it work, then I could probably sell it and at least get what I paid for it back.
Well, suffice to say, I found the scooter that's not even worth $50. After giving it a hard look, I said 'no thanks' and then while I was driving away I got a text, the guy offered it FOR FREE and I still didn't turn around and get it. I think if he had offered ME $50 to take it, I'd still leave it.
The thing was, pretty much everything on the scooter needed replacement. It needed body plastics, headlight, all four turn signals, every chrome part was completely rusted, the brake master cylinder/lever was not even mounted and was clearly useless along with the brake line fitting, half the electrical connectors were disconnected and there were a half dozen wires that were cut and spliced, who knows why. Not starting was the least of the problems. It didn't help that it was in 100 pieces when I got there to look at it. I told the guy he'd probably be able to sell it easily if he put it together first. The problem buying a basket case like this is if you're not the one who took it apart, it's way harder to get it back together, sometimes impossible. Which screw goes where? what did that wire connect to? you know the drill.
So now I have to figure another sneaky way to get my wife to try riding a moto. I need to find a Stella with no motor at all for $300 or something.
Bummer the scooter didnt work out. Sounded like a cheap, fun little project. I usually see cheap two wheeled stuff on my local craigslist thats always a bit tempting. I'm sure you'll be able to find a sub-$1K scooter either over the winter (when everyone wants to get rid of a summer toy) or in the spring (when everyone wants to buy a summer toy lol) that you can lightly pressure your wife into trying.
I'm planning on purchasing a bike for my girlfriend in the spring. She wants to ride as well, but has no experience at all (I had a bunch of experience on dirtbikes, so my GS500F was a perfect first street bike for me), so I'm thinking a 250cc would be good. She likes bikes with the sport-naked look, so I figure I'll get an early 2000's ninja 250 and strip the fairings/cowl off and mount a custom headlight and turn signals. Almost like a streetfighter type thing. Ninjettes are so cheap, shouldn't be too much of an investment. And if she hates it, I'll be able to sell it for about what I paid.
Quote from: qcbaker on October 21, 2016, 11:55:26 AM
Bummer the scooter didnt work out. Sounded like a cheap, fun little project.
It did, until I saw it :)
Quote
early 2000's ninja 250 and strip the fairings/cowl off and mount a custom headlight and turn signals.
I actually considered a Ninja 500 instead of my GS and looked at a number of them but they really don't come out well in naked form. IMHO. Otherwise Ninja 250 looks like a pretty terrific bike to start on. :thumb:
Quote from: mr72 on October 21, 2016, 12:39:41 PM
I actually considered a Ninja 500 instead of my GS and looked at a number of them but they really don't come out well in naked form. IMHO. Otherwise Ninja 250 looks like a pretty terrific bike to start on. :thumb:
The Ninja 500 is a decent bike, my buddy at work has one. Its a nice bike, but the styling doesn't really do it for me.
The 250 has a bit more sporty styling, and this is essentially what I plan on doing:
from something like this:
(http://www.bikez.com/pictures/kawasaki/2005/21472_0_1_4_ninja%20250%20r_Image%20credits%20-%20Kawasaki.jpg)
to something like this this:
(http://i.imgur.com/nldWpvO.jpg)
May keep the rear fairings on though. All depends on what my girlfriend prefers, since it'll be her bike.
What about a Honda Trail?
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/923/MC223j.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnMC223jj)
These came in several engine sizes and are fairly common. I see them all the time on CL in varying condition, usually all sub $1000.
Just keep your eyes open. CL is full of bubbas and high prices, but eventually you find something priced right or even a good deal.
My last GS I got for just $1300 in perfect working order. My current Buell I found for $3000 in a market of Buells for $4000...
great idea, but I'm gonna have to find something way more ... um... fashionable? cute? and nearly free or free :)
Oh, come on! The Honda Trail is cute as can be! Just need to clean it up lol
Another vote for a trail CT110 if you can find one for the right price. Get one of the later models with electronic ignition and there is almost nothing that can go wrong with the bike. I've taught at least 4 people to ride on a trail 110 with about 45 seconds of instruction. Clutchless shifting makes them super easy to learn.
Or get one of the old 60's/70's trail 90's or ct200. They are closer to the aesthetic you are going for, just not as modern.
(http://www.trail90.hondagl.com/wp-content/uploads/yearbook-photos/honda-90-ct200.jpg)
A 60s/70s trail 90 is probably checks a lot of your boxes, mr72.
Not to highjack this thread with my "get my girlfriend riding" plans, but I am currently investigating a nearby '09 ninja 250. Owner says it was "high-sided" but the only apparent damage is a series of lengthwise scrapes on the fairings and a broken right turn signal. Very lucky if thats the case. My thought is that the owner does not understand what a "high side" crash is, and just said that because the right side of the bike is the "high side". I suspect the bike was, in reality, lowsided in a low-speed right hand turn. But you never know. Stuff like that makes me nervous.
If the fairings are all that's damaged (which im a little suspect about, given the price and description) then this might be a pretty good buy, being that I'm planning on stripping them off anyway to try and streetfighter this thing out. Here's the ad: http://lancaster.craigslist.org/mcy/5809457240.html
Quote from: Bluesmudge on October 24, 2016, 01:29:21 PM
Another vote for a trail CT110 if you can find one for the right price.
Yeah, um, no way. I mean, no way on earth my wife will be caught dead on one of those. A Trail 90 or 110 or whatever is not a fashion statement by itself that will make hipsters swoon, not like a Stella. Not even in the same universe. And that's the minimum that MIGHT get my wife to ride around on one.
You know, I think it's ideas like thse that would draw her to ride a scooter:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/15/35/4b/15354b6b6260477e92bc7dd37e089709.jpg)(http://members.modernvespa.net/burgerbob/uploads/vespa_girl_17_70524.jpg)
(http://motorcycle.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/2009-Vespa-LX-50-4T.jpg)(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ea/58/88/ea58888f085ae0e4258d0d713e6c1976.jpg)
Anyway, it's a moot point. I'm not going to spend $2K on a Vespa or a Genuine Stella in order to roll the dice that maybe my wife will one day consider riding it. I suppose if I found a black one it wouldn't be too bad and maybe I'd ride it occasionally to the grocery store. I dunno, maybe if I go buy a new Ducati Scrambler they'll throw in a used Vespa GTS.
What are you talking about? Ct200/90/110 is hipster gold. I live in Portland Oregon, I would know. Any real hipster wouldn't be caught dead on a vespa anymore. You are thinking 2013 hipster. Gotta keep up.
(http://www.picautos.com/images/honda-ct-200-09.jpg)(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yUEJV_S0UnY/UV7xRO_U5yI/AAAAAAAADC0/9V5av1U_vZo/s1600/vlcsnap-2013-04-05-15h06m38s95.png)(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e1/47/15/e1471579387cd008335cd45d90461fe8.jpg)(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/35/02/9b/35029b8d4d001aed5469edb25447cfe9.jpg)(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/5f/9c/e4/5f9ce4e8cac7fc7784a532b7fa35d8cc.jpg)(http://www.motorstown.com/images/honda-ct-90-08.jpg)
haha! my wife's not really a hipster... our kids are more likely hipsters :)
it's cool and fashionable and cute because it's European. It's not cool if it's Japanese kitsch.
You'll never know unless you show it to your wife...
But if you're dead set on a Vespa style don't give up.
I searched CL for "scooter" under motorcycles and this came up on page one.
http://tucson.craigslist.org/mcy/5831289386.html
There are deals out there. If it wasn't running it'd be half the price.
Quote from: Watcher on October 25, 2016, 08:10:46 PM
You'll never know unless you show it to your wife...
But if you're dead set on a Vespa style don't give up.
I searched CL for "scooter" under motorcycles and this came up on page one.
http://tucson.craigslist.org/mcy/5831289386.html
There are deals out there. If it wasn't running it'd be half the price.
Thats a pretty decent deal, even with the duct tape seat lol.
Quote from: qcbaker on October 26, 2016, 06:28:02 AM
Quote from: Watcher on October 25, 2016, 08:10:46 PM
There are deals out there. If it wasn't running it'd be half the price.
Thats a pretty decent deal, even with the duct tape seat lol.
Yeah I agree, that's a decent deal. But its a long ride from Arizona to Austin.
I'll keep checking. Something tells me once we get to sub-40-degree lows and sleet and freezing rain here in Austin the deals are really going to start to show up.
My wife is not dead-set on anything except that she's not going to ride a motorcycle at all ever. The scooter is only a decent idea because she MIGHT try to ride it if she thinks it's sufficiently cute and fashionable, even if it's just for a loop around the cul-de-sac.
Hahaha I love this thread. I talked my wife into sitting on my GS to snap a quick photo the day I bought it. I'm not sure she's even looked in its general direction since then. She was less than thrilled with the idea of me getting my MC endorsement to begin with, and has only warmed up to the idea a little since then. She'll probably never ride on two wheels except for maybe one day if I buy a touring bike in our old age :icon_lol:
That being said, the scooter approach is a good one. I wish you luck in your search.
@rscottlow
You might be on to something.
Buy the wify some gear. Cute helmet with butterflies or something, a jacket and some sweet leather pants to show off that booty, then convince her to hop on the back.
I've gotten girls into motorcycles by letting them borrow a helmet and jacket and having them go for a ride.
That's my biggest challenge. I don't think my wife will ever get on the back of a motorcycle, not with me or with anyone. Mostly because: a) when we were newly married many many years ago, we went out to my parents' place that's a wilderness of a subdivided ranch out in the TX hill country and she went for a ride with me on their Polaris 4-wheeler. She was terrified and screamed at the top of her lungs in my ear the whole time. I was young and foolish. Then about a decade later we went on a trip to Isla Mujeres in Mexico and rented a 50cc scooter, which as it turned out had absolutely no working brakes. Plus both of us are 6' tall so this was not a good plan anyway to try and ride 2-up on a tiny scooter for two full-size adults. When we got to the very first stop sign the scooter would not stop and I had to Fred-Flintstone it. This renewed her terror in riding on the back of any 2-wheel vehicle, especially one I was piloting. That was like 15 years ago and to this day my wife still blames me for the scooter brake failure.
I have a tough road to getting my wife to try a 2-wheel vehicle again. But you are right, I should buy a cute helmet and stylin' jacket plus some gloves that fit. Maybe she'd ride around the block with me and see that I'm not a) a 21 year old fool and b) riding on a never-maintained Mexican rental.
I have the opposite problem >:(
I bought a little Vespa for commuting and getting around town. My wife loves the damn thing! She wants to get her license now.
So that means I'll have to shell out for another scooter. Spend time maintaining a second bike. And most importantly, worry about her safety every time she's out riding (somehow, riding seems more dangerous when someone else is doing it!). Arrgh.
Quote from: mr72 on October 27, 2016, 05:37:14 AM
That's my biggest challenge. I don't think my wife will ever get on the back of a motorcycle, not with me or with anyone. Mostly because: a) when we were newly married many many years ago, we went out to my parents' place that's a wilderness of a subdivided ranch out in the TX hill country and she went for a ride with me on their Polaris 4-wheeler. She was terrified and screamed at the top of her lungs in my ear the whole time. I was young and foolish. Then about a decade later we went on a trip to Isla Mujeres in Mexico and rented a 50cc scooter, which as it turned out had absolutely no working brakes. Plus both of us are 6' tall so this was not a good plan anyway to try and ride 2-up on a tiny scooter for two full-size adults. When we got to the very first stop sign the scooter would not stop and I had to Fred-Flintstone it. This renewed her terror in riding on the back of any 2-wheel vehicle, especially one I was piloting. That was like 15 years ago and to this day my wife still blames me for the scooter brake failure.
I have a tough road to getting my wife to try a 2-wheel vehicle again. But you are right, I should buy a cute helmet and stylin' jacket plus some gloves that fit. Maybe she'd ride around the block with me and see that I'm not a) a 21 year old fool and b) riding on a never-maintained Mexican rental.
lol thats actually a pretty great story about the no-brakes scooter.
And yeah, my girlfriend was pretty into the whole "pick out your gear" discussion. She's not a very "girly" girl, so it wasn't a "OMG SHOPPING! :D" thing, but she is a bit picky about some things so I think she was pleasantly surprised at the variety of options I was able to find for her.
Agreed with the seller on a price for that 250 ($1850), gonna go inspect and probably buy it on Wednesday. Maybe next weekend I can spend Saturday teaching her to ride, if the weather is cooperative.
Quote from: beRto on October 27, 2016, 05:14:39 PM
I bought a little Vespa for commuting and getting around town. My wife loves the damn thing! She wants to get her license now.
I truly believe this is exactly what my wife would do if she ever tried riding one. So the trick really is, I have to get one for myself, then let her think she's stealing it from me. But she probably would never believe that I actually wanted a scooter for myself, when I already have a [potentially] perfectly good motorcycle.
Quote
Maybe next weekend I can spend Saturday teaching her to ride, if the weather is cooperative.
Take it from a guy who's been married now 24 years (today!): have your girlfriend take the MSF basic rider course and don't try to teach her to ride yourself. They will teach clutch and friction zone and countersteering and braking and all of that, and she can get frustrated and mad at those instructors and not at you when she's learning. Just MHO. Actually one of the reasons I am considering a scooter is because really there's not much instruction required to learn to ride it and then I'd send my wife to the MSF class where she'd learn to use the clutch and lean angle and all of that on their bikes and without arguing with me about it. Plus in TX, you have to take the MSF to get the M endorsement.
Quote from: mr72 on October 28, 2016, 05:29:51 AM
Take it from a guy who's been married now 24 years (today!): have your girlfriend take the MSF basic rider course and don't try to teach her to ride yourself. They will teach clutch and friction zone and countersteering and braking and all of that, and she can get frustrated and mad at those instructors and not at you when she's learning. Just MHO. Actually one of the reasons I am considering a scooter is because really there's not much instruction required to learn to ride it and then I'd send my wife to the MSF class where she'd learn to use the clutch and lean angle and all of that on their bikes and without arguing with me about it. Plus in TX, you have to take the MSF to get the M endorsement.
Happy anniversary mate. :cheers:
And yeah, I totally get what you're saying. She will take the BRC, as its an easy and free way to get your M endorsement here in PA. But, she asked me to teach her the "basic stuff" before she goes to the course. I'm not really sure what all the thinks is "the basics", and I told her that the course is designed for people who know nothing about motorcycles, but she insisted she wanted to learn at least a little from me before learning from strangers. As I want motorcycling to be something we can do together, I will teach her what I can and if she gets frustrated with me we'll stop and wait until she takes the course.
I'll probably just start by repeating some of the first things I learned in my dirtbike sessions: bike anatomy, pre-start check, starting procedure, stuff like that. If we get to actually riding the bike, I actually don't think she'll get too frustrated with me. She knows how to drive stick pretty well, so I don't think clutch operation and shifting will be an enormous issue for her. That's really where people seem to have the most trouble to me: pulling of from a stop in first, as "easing off" the clutch is an alien concept to people who've spent all their life driving automatic cars lol. But since she already understands the conceptual side of shifting, I'm optimistic that she won't get frustrated too easily.
I think one of the most important things for a new rider to learn, especially women, is how to move the bike around and move around the bike when its not under power. New riders will get much more confident with the bike if they are not worried about tipping the bike over.
Teach them that a balanced bike weighs nothing. Before they ever turn the key, the new rider should be able to walk all the way around the bike when it is off the stand, keeping only one hand on the bike at a time. Then have them push the bike around walking next to it. Then turn the bike around walking next to it. Get on and off the bike over and over. Maybe even teach them the "spin the bike around on the kickstand trick." Show the new rider that maneuvering (and eventually riding) doesn't take any effort if you don't try to force anything, its all about balance. Unless you are pushing the bike up a hill, it should never feel like you are fighting against the bike. Doing the exercises will give them a lot of confidence in their ability to make the bike do what they want. They will feel familiarized with the motorcycle before they learn the more difficult stuff. Otherwise, from the very beginning, the bike is a big scary thing that they are afraid to drop.
Blue, that was very well said IMO.
When I wanted to teach myself how to ride and I was lent (my future) GS to practice/learn on, that's where I thought was the most logical place to start... just getting used to how to maneuver the bike around. I spent lots of time just pushing it around in my dad's shop and walking with it/turning it around.
Then I started slowly (and I mean painfully slowly lol) putting it into gear and letting the clutch out to see how much pull it had. Rolling along, going the length of the parking lot and then stopping. Turning around, going back, repeat. Then when I felt comfy enough with that, I went around the block. Over and over, blah blah, going a bit farther each time and before I knew it, I rode it home. Woot toot :-P
Well there's another $50 not-running project scooter on CL this week, Taiwanese decent brand with GY6 and 16" wheels. Not exactly what I was looking for but if it's in halfway decent shape it could be worth it, since the company that made it is reputable and currently in business with lots of support so parts are available. There's also a running 150cc Taiwanese Vespa knock-off with GY6 engine that looks good but needs paint that I could probably ride home for $300, but the downside is the importer/distributor has gone out of business in the USA years ago so basically it'd be a custom-fab fix-it project for anything that needs fixing. I'd have to do a detailed inventory. From the pictures it LOOKS like someone just had no idea how to paint plastic and rattle-canned some black onto the creme molded-in ABS bodywork and it's peeling all over but otherwise, looks pretty solid. Fortunately I absolutely know how to paint plastic.
I am pretty heavily booked through the weekend but while my wife's out of town next week I may take a look at these if they are still available. I could even imagine taking them both home. That is, if I can get either of the sellers to respond to my emails. What the heck is up with Craigslist people? If the ONLY contact information you post is email then you really ought to reply to emails, you know? And the $400 Vespalike scooter guy I emailed AND texted. No response. You wanna sell it? Respond already. I can't tell you how many times I have texted, emailed and even called and left messages for motorcycles and scooters on CL and gotten no response. I swear it's like less than 5% of CL posters actually respond.
Quote from: mr72 on November 01, 2016, 07:40:19 AM
Well there's another $50 not-running project scooter on CL this week, Taiwanese decent brand with GY6 and 16" wheels. Not exactly what I was looking for but if it's in halfway decent shape it could be worth it, since the company that made it is reputable and currently in business with lots of support so parts are available. There's also a running 150cc Taiwanese Vespa knock-off with GY6 engine that looks good but needs paint that I could probably ride home for $300, but the downside is the importer/distributor has gone out of business in the USA years ago so basically it'd be a custom-fab fix-it project for anything that needs fixing. I'd have to do a detailed inventory. From the pictures it LOOKS like someone just had no idea how to paint plastic and rattle-canned some black onto the creme molded-in ABS bodywork and it's peeling all over but otherwise, looks pretty solid. Fortunately I absolutely know how to paint plastic.
I am pretty heavily booked through the weekend but while my wife's out of town next week I may take a look at these if they are still available. I could even imagine taking them both home. That is, if I can get either of the sellers to respond to my emails. What the heck is up with Craigslist people? If the ONLY contact information you post is email then you really ought to reply to emails, you know? And the $400 Vespalike scooter guy I emailed AND texted. No response. You wanna sell it? Respond already. I can't tell you how many times I have texted, emailed and even called and left messages for motorcycles and scooters on CL and gotten no response. I swear it's like less than 5% of CL posters actually respond.
If the ads have pics, post the link to the ads. I'm sure i'm not the only one who's curious to see what they look like.
If the running one just needs a can of paint, check eBay for parts. I wouldn't be surprised if there are replacement parts floating around even though the distributor is out of business.
I can totally sympathize with your CL troubles. When I was shopping for my GS I had a hard time getting several people to respond. Turns out at least one of the ads was fake. I also went to look at an SV650 and sat in the parking lot of the storage unit for over a half an hour repeatedly calling the seller...he never answered my calls or showed up, even though I had spoken with him the night before to confirm.
Quote from: qcbaker on November 01, 2016, 07:56:51 AM
If the ads have pics, post the link to the ads. I'm sure i'm not the only one who's curious to see what they look like.
The $400 Vespalike has pictures, this is the best one:
(https://images.craigslist.org/00G0G_5TmDnBSKacm_1200x900.jpg)
Quote
If the running one just needs a can of paint, check eBay for parts. I wouldn't be surprised if there are replacement parts floating around even though the distributor is out of business.
Yeah maybe. But if it just needs paint, I wouldn't need parts. It's more likely that it needs paint and every chrome part replaced and a brake master cylinder and a wiring harness... You know how it is.
After reading the ad it KIND OF sounds like the engine is not actually in the scooter. Actually, it sounds to me like the guy bought the scooter in order to harvest the engine and use it in something else (150cc GY6 goes in just about everything), and now is trying to sell the scooter and engine and they may not be together in one piece. Who knows. If the seller would respond then I would know more. It's located way the heck in southeast Austin and I live in a northwest suburb so it's not trivial to go look at it.. probably an hour drive there and an hour back. Which would matter, if the seller responded.
Quote from: mr72 on November 01, 2016, 08:14:51 AM
...
Yeah maybe. But if it just needs paint, I wouldn't need parts. It's more likely that it needs paint and every chrome part replaced and a brake master cylinder and a wiring harness... You know how it is.
After reading the ad it KIND OF sounds like the engine is not actually in the scooter. Actually, it sounds to me like the guy bought the scooter in order to harvest the engine and use it in something else (150cc GY6 goes in just about everything), and now is trying to sell the scooter and engine and they may not be together in one piece. Who knows. If the seller would respond then I would know more. It's located way the heck in southeast Austin and I live in a northwest suburb so it's not trivial to go look at it.. probably an hour drive there and an hour back. Which would matter, if the seller responded.
Even the most reliable machine will need parts eventually. How reliable do you think this scooter will be, based on the brand/parts involved?
And, yeah I would definitely ask for clarification about the state of the scooter. Even if it is in one piece and running, riding a 150cc scooter home is gonna be a chore. You definitely cant take it on any highways, so it'd probably take you twice as long to get home lol.
Quote from: qcbaker on November 01, 2016, 08:33:10 AM
Even the most reliable machine will need parts eventually. How reliable do you think this scooter will be, based on the brand/parts involved?
Yeah, good point. I thought you meant just to get it going.
Quote
And, yeah I would definitely ask for clarification about the state of the scooter. Even if it is in one piece and running, riding a 150cc scooter home is gonna be a chore.
Haha. I was kind of kidding about that. I'll have to trailer anything home. It's an hour drive from my house in a car using freeways. I wouldn't ride my GS500, even if I had it and if it was fixed and working, that far at once, much less something with 15% as much power and no track record. Heck, after working on my own GS500 for two months I discovered it was not reliable enough to make a 20 minute ride anywhere.
So the Ninja I was gonna buy fell through. But, I found a Buell Blast that my girlfriend likes the look of (low seat height, more sport-standard-ish aesthetics rather than straight sport, reputation for being a decent beginner bike). I'm going to take a look at it tomorrow and make sure everything is in order and buy it if everything checks out.
Have you had any luck in finding a two wheel vehicle for your wife?
Good idea about the Blast. That seems like a pretty good starter bike especially if you really don't have a lot of sporting intentions. And you know, one carburetor is surprisingly far less than half as hard to work on as two.
Once I got my bike back from the shop with the bill being about $200 more than expected I basically decided to quit looking for a scooter until next year. Maybe by the end of January some folks will be tired of having their scooter sitting while it's too cold to ride and sell one for cheap. My wife's more likely to try and ride one after a) she sees that I've had months of trouble-free riding and b) the weather is turning nice. Trying to cram a new lifestyle idea in during the holidays is a bad idea, I think.
Good luck with the Blast.
Quote from: mr72 on November 17, 2016, 10:29:50 AM
Good idea about the Blast. That seems like a pretty good starter bike especially if you really don't have a lot of sporting intentions. And you know, one carburetor is surprisingly far less than half as hard to work on as two.
Once I got my bike back from the shop with the bill being about $200 more than expected I basically decided to quit looking for a scooter until next year. Maybe by the end of January some folks will be tired of having their scooter sitting while it's too cold to ride and sell one for cheap. My wife's more likely to try and ride one after a) she sees that I've had months of trouble-free riding and b) the weather is turning nice. Trying to cram a new lifestyle idea in during the holidays is a bad idea, I think.
Good luck with the Blast.
Keep checking craigslist, I'm sure a good deal will come up sometime. Good luck in your endeavors lol.
As for the blast, yeah the simplicity of it seems good to me since I'll probably do a lot of the maintenance. Only thing that I thought was strange about the bike is the lack of a tachometer. I learned to ride on dirtbikes without a tachometer, so I don't think it will be an enormous issue. My girlfriend already understands the mechanics of shifting from driving a manual car, so I shouldn't need to teach her when to shift or anything. Looks like there are a bunch of aftermarket options though, so it shouldn't be a huge issue to install one if needed/wanted. Just seems like a strange thing to leave out. :dunno_black:
I'll be sure to post some pics in a project thread if I end up doing any upgrades or anything lol.
Quote from: qcbaker on November 17, 2016, 11:43:40 AMOnly thing that I thought was strange about the bike is the lack of a tachometer.
...
Just seems like a strange thing to leave out.
I think it's a Harley thing. And with a 500cc single, the risk of you over-revving it is pretty low, because my guess is it runs out of power long before the revs get high enough to worry about.
Quote from: mr72 on November 17, 2016, 12:02:18 PM
Quote from: qcbaker on November 17, 2016, 11:43:40 AMOnly thing that I thought was strange about the bike is the lack of a tachometer.
...
Just seems like a strange thing to leave out.
I think it's a Harley thing. And with a 500cc single, the risk of you over-revving it is pretty low, because my guess is it runs out of power long before the revs get high enough to worry about.
It does have a rev limiter though. So yeah, there's basically little to no risk of any damage form over-revving. But this makes it even stranger to me: the bike is measuring RPMs (or technically frequency of spark plug firing?) to prevent over-revving, but Buell/HD have just chosen not to display this information to the rider. The rev limiter kind of makes the tach unnecessary for safety reasons, so the point is kind of moot I guess, but again, I feel like its just a strange thing to leave out. Why omit useful information? Maybe you're right in saying its "a Harley thing". There are tons of things people love about Harleys (and big cruisers in general, I guess) are totally lost on me, but that's a completely different discussion lol.
Just got back from teaching and we only have 3 motorcycles in the fleet with a tach. Honda nighthawks, Suzuki TU250, Suzuki GZ250s, Kawasaki Eliminator 125, no tachs.
Our 2015 Honda CB300, 2016 Suzuki GW250, and Kawi KLR250 have tachs.
As far as the Blast goes, I wish I had a chance to ride one. They are somewhat of a laughing stock among other Buell owners as Erik Buell himself is on record as hating them. Apparently there's a video somewhere of him crushing one.
Not sure the history, maybe HD forced his hand into making a "beginner bike" which not only went against his racing pedigree but also made the Buell name subservient to HD themselves.
They do shake a lot, but they should be easy to work on and lightweight.
They also make less power than the GS500, and the GS500 is a staple beginner moto. It shouldn't be very intimidating.
If the transmission is anything like my lightning it'll be clunky.
Quote from: Watcher on November 17, 2016, 02:35:26 PM
Just got back from teaching and we only have 3 motorcycles in the fleet with a tach. Honda nighthawks, Suzuki TU250, Suzuki GZ250s, Kawasaki Eliminator 125, no tachs.
Our 2015 Honda CB300, 2016 Suzuki GW250, and Kawi KLR250 have tachs.
As far as the Blast goes, I wish I had a chance to ride one. They are somewhat of a laughing stock among other Buell owners as Erik Buell himself is on record as hating them. Apparently there's a video somewhere of him crushing one.
Not sure the history, maybe HD forced his hand into making a "beginner bike" which not only went against his racing pedigree but also made the Buell name subservient to HD themselves.
They do shake a lot, but they should be easy to work on and lightweight.
They also make less power than the GS500, and the GS500 is a staple beginner moto. It shouldn't be very intimidating.
If the transmission is anything like my lightning it'll be clunky.
I was actually considering PMing you regarding this choice, seeing if you knew of any good Buell forums or other online resources. I found BadWeatherBikers and boy is that site hard to look at, even if there's tons of good info there lol. Reminds me of an early 90's BBS, a bit disorganized if you ask me. They seem to like the Blast well enough though, even if Buell himself didn't :icon_mrgreen:.
But yeah, consensus online seems to be that the gearbox is very clunky, but I don't think that's really much of a "problem". Anyway, the Blast seems like a good choice all around: its a decent beginner moto, and the seat height is low enough that my girlfriend (~5'2") will be able to balance it without being on her tip toes as she is when sitting on my GS. Plus, she seems to like the way it looks and I feel like getting her a bike she actually likes the look of (without my having to do any aesthetic mods) is good way to keep her stoked on riding. I know I wouldn't be psyched to go ride a bike I thought was lame.
I'm on BuellXB.com
Good site, and there's dedicated sections for the Blast, 1125s, and even EBR.
Everything you'll ever need to know Buell can be found there.
One cool thing about Blasts is the bodywork is made of essentially "golfball plastic" and they are molded in color. So it will weather abuse VERY well aside from things like breaking mirrors/signals/pegs etc.
Quote from: Watcher on November 17, 2016, 03:12:05 PM
I'm on BuellXB.com
Good site, and there's dedicated sections for the Blast, 1125s, and even EBR.
Everything you'll ever need to know Buell can be found there.
One cool thing about Blasts is the bodywork is made of essentially "golfball plastic" and they are molded in color. So it will weather abuse VERY well aside from things like breaking mirrors/signals/pegs etc.
That site is much better lol :cheers: Thanks mate. If I have any questions, I'll head over there.
And I'm assuming this bike with probably be dropped at some point (as most first bikes are) so study bodywork is definitely a plus.
So today, the Blast seller texted me saying he couldn't get the bike to start. I told him I'd still come look at it and if I could get it started, I'd still be willing to buy it. Figured the battery might just be dead, so it was worth it to drive out and see. Showed up with no expectations, but the bike started on the first try and ran perfectly when I took my test ride :dunno_black:. Bought the bike and rode it home on the highway, and in stop and go traffic, even stopped for lunch. Had no problems whatsoever. Anyway, my girlfriend loves it. All is going according to plan lol :thumb:
Congrats!!! :woohoo:
Pics or shens!
Also, don't put a Vance pipe on it...
Inspect the belt inside and out. They don't require regular maintenance and last a long time, but they also can break without warning.
Many a Bueller has had to make a road-side belt swap. If it looks dry rot, has cracks, or the "teeth" are chewed up a bit, play it safe and replace it.
Mine is as far as I can tell factory and with 26k or so on a 10 year old bike it looks fine. It looks like its well used, but there's no real signs of damage. I expect it to go at least another 10k.
How many miles on that Blast? What year?
@Watcher: Belt looked fine, I inspected it for excessive wear/dry rot before i took it out for the test ride. So hopefully that wont be an issue. Also, no plans for an exhaust upgrade lol. Only thing that I'm planning on is upgrading the spark plugs for better combustion. Anything beyond that will have to be my girlfriend's decision.
Bike is an 06. has about 10.5K miles. Less miles than my GS, and one year newer lol.
Pic of the bike:
(http://i63.tinypic.com/29zyhw4.png)
I'd treat that header ASAP, it looks rusted as hell.
The rest looks great! Good deal.
Quote from: Watcher on November 19, 2016, 11:37:35 AM
I'd treat that header ASAP, it looks rusted as hell.
The rest looks great! Good deal.
It looks worse in the picture than it actually is lol. I might sand it down and paint the exhaust at some point though, just to spruce it up.
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention about the Buell: The shifter is positioned much too high. Like, my foot would need to be like 3 times as thick to be able to shift this thing normally. Currently, I have to lift my foot off the peg and kick upward to move the shifter. Easy fix (take off shifter, reposition, tighten back up) , but a strange thing nonetheless.
Wonder if a Harleyphile previous owner (or the dealer!) didn't adjust it that way to fit those super fat H-D riding boots under it.
My thoughts exactly.
Or they don't know to point their toe down to "pick up" the shifter...
Quote from: Watcher on November 21, 2016, 12:07:27 PM
My thoughts exactly.
Or they don't know to point their toe down to "pick up" the shifter...
All of which indicative of attitudes at H-D that led to the demise of Buell.
H-D really had no idea how to market an additional brand in an adjacent vertical to their successful lineup. But we see this all the time with American companies, especially in the automotive industry. They seem to never get this right. Ever.
Quote from: mr72 on November 21, 2016, 12:24:38 PM
Quote from: Watcher on November 21, 2016, 12:07:27 PM
My thoughts exactly.
Or they don't know to point their toe down to "pick up" the shifter...
All of which indicative of attitudes at H-D that led to the demise of Buell.
H-D really had no idea how to market an additional brand in an adjacent vertical to their successful lineup. But we see this all the time with American companies, especially in the automotive industry. They seem to never get this right. Ever.
It seems to me that H-D is more of a lifestyle brand than they really are a motorcycle company. Generally, they sell big, heavy cruisers to middle aged guys who want to feel like a badass. I feel like they're selling the
idea of their product moreso than the product itself. H-D is a "form over function" kind of company. A lot of H-D riders don't care if their bike handles well or has a smooth ride, or anything like that. By and large they care about how cool their bike makes them feel. There's nothing really wrong with that, I guess. They genuinely love riding their bikes and that's really what's most important I think. But, it isn't shocking to me that H-D would fail to effectively manage a brand like Buell. Buell's background is racing, where function is much more important than form. Just my take.
That said, I don't know that this phenomenon is unique to american companies. Toyota did the same thing to Scion. :dunno_black:
Quote from: qcbaker on November 21, 2016, 12:51:19 PM
It seems to me that H-D is more of a lifestyle brand than they really are a motorcycle company. Generally, they sell big, heavy cruisers to middle aged guys who want to feel like a badass.
I think you are absolutely right in a lot of cases. But I wonder of the following is really that true:
QuoteA lot of H-D riders don't care if their bike handles well or has a smooth ride, or anything like that. By and large they care about how cool their bike makes them feel.
I actually don't find this to be the case with the H-D owners I have talked to. This may very well be true with H-D
owners who don't really ride (like my next-door neighbor). My own anecdotal experience talking to and reading about the dedicated H-D riders, they do seem to truly appreciate the functionality and quality of Harleys. There certainly are plenty of the tall-handlebar chopper guys who clearly are much more into image than performance, but for a lot of the guys I have talked to, they just say nothing is as comfortable, natural and simple for them to ride, and easy to fit into a daily riding lifestyle. Some are even converts from higher-tech/more-functional standard street bikes and adventure type bikes.
I think it's quite similar to the Jeep thing. I have a Jeep Wrangler and I've found the Jeep community has a similar dichotomy. Maddening sometimes.
Quote
That said, I don't know that this phenomenon is unique to american companies. Toyota did the same thing to Scion. :dunno_black:
Hmm. I'm not sure it was really the same thing. Scion just didn't sell as well as they needed it to. There was not enough differentiation from Toyota's core product. But Toyota succeeded wildly with Lexus. It just needs a bigger brand differentiation to make it work.
I think the whole Harley lifestyle sans performance is 100% true. To the point where their ECMs are programmed to misfire to keep that HD sound.
To the point they REMOVED balancing shafts from upcoming engine designs because customers complained it was too smooth.
Why does my XB12SS have essentially the same engine as a Harley Sportster but it's smoother, makes about 30 more horses, and has about twice the torque?
Why did it take them this damn long to hop on the bandwagon and make a 750/500cc bike to fit the learner crowd (but they're still $8000 bikes)?
It IS a lifestyle.
With the resurgence of Indian and Victory stealing customers they need to up their game if they want to stay competitive. Victory is making nicer machines for the same money, and Indian is a classic name and iconic style reborn and is taking many HD riders over. It's probably the only reason we saw small bikes from HD. Get them started young and keep them...
And if you need ANY proof that it was HD that killed off Buell, Buell had already developed the Rotax 1125 engine and was moving away from HD supply lines when they got hung, despite claims from HD that Buell wouldn't have been able to be independent because of how reliant they were on HD for parts, Buell was dissolved only 2 years after HD purchased all the assets (2 years is a short time to decide it's a financial draw rather than a profit. What, they couldn't see the recession this whole time they were still purchasing the company? How short-sighted are they? I hope the economic projections guy also got fired), and HD also owned MVAgusta at the time and decided to SELL them.
HD didn't even try to sell Buell and instead just destroyed them, they barely marketed Buell while owning them, they basically thought Buells were toy bikes and that when the riders "grew up" they'd get a Harley anyway, so why would they waste the money on all these trade-ins?
HD killed Buell. Bottom line.
Sorry for the double post but I wanted some separation.
I went on a 9/11 memorial ride with a local VFW, 97% HD.
One of the creased, white haired, grizzley lead riders was on a Yamaha Star650.
I went up to him and joked, said I was glad I wasn't alone in not riding a Harley.
His response as best as I can remember?
"Military families are very deep rooted in tradition, many of these kids ride HD because that's what their daddy rode. A lot of people here even have heirloom bikes.
When I got out everyone was buying Harley's without even looking at anything else, that's just what you did."
I don't remember the details of what got him on a Yamaha but he did comment on it being cheaper, lighter, smoother, and he didn't think a huge engine was necessary and liked his little 650 just fine for hopping from place to place in town.
Harley has the corner on a market that's quickly fading. If they can't attract new riders they are going to bite the bullet.
Even in cruisers, kids ride little 250s and Honda Rebels as first bikes and form relationships. The Honda Rebel turns into a Honda Shadow, guys that age out of an R6 get a Star, GSXR>Boulevard.
If HD can at least cut the cost they'll stir the pot. I can't believe how much money they charge for some of the bikes they offer, especially compared to imports, and it's not like their quality levels are through the roof.
Parts are expensive, service is expensive, the bikes are EXPENSIVE!
HD is a proud American company, but they're pig headed in a lot of ways. They've become so huge they refused to innovate.
I'm glad to see them moving along with the Street series. Maybe if they can lower the price in ways other than cutting cost, for example how they put shaZam! brakes on them, they can start selling decent machines for decent money.
As is for a bike that size you're better off with a Star or the new Rebel...
Quote from: mr72 on November 21, 2016, 01:05:49 PM
I actually don't find this to be the case with the H-D owners I have talked to. This may very well be true with H-D owners who don't really ride (like my next-door neighbor). My own anecdotal experience talking to and reading about the dedicated H-D riders, they do seem to truly appreciate the functionality and quality of Harleys. There certainly are plenty of the tall-handlebar chopper guys who clearly are much more into image than performance, but for a lot of the guys I have talked to, they just say nothing is as comfortable, natural and simple for them to ride, and easy to fit into a daily riding lifestyle. Some are even converts from higher-tech/more-functional standard street bikes and adventure type bikes.
I think it's quite similar to the Jeep thing. I have a Jeep Wrangler and I've found the Jeep community has a similar dichotomy. Maddening sometimes.
They might say that, but its definitely not the truth. H-D intentionally introduces imperfections into their bikes because that's what their customers (diehard harley guys included) want. H-D does this becayse their customers don't "the best bike for their money", they want a "Harley-Davidson". Watcher explained this pretty well (emphasis mine):
Quote from: Watcher on November 21, 2016, 01:15:14 PM
I think the whole Harley lifestyle sans performance is 100% true. To the point where their ECMs are programmed to misfire to keep that HD sound.
To the point they REMOVED balancing shafts from upcoming engine designs because customers complained it was too smooth.
Why does my XB12SS have essentially the same engine as a Harley Sportster but it's smoother, makes about 30 more horses, and has about twice the torque?
Why did it take them this damn long to hop on the bandwagon and make a 750/500cc bike to fit the learner crowd (but they're still $8000 bikes)?
It IS a lifestyle.
Quote
Quote
That said, I don't know that this phenomenon is unique to american companies. Toyota did the same thing to Scion. :dunno_black:
Hmm. I'm not sure it was really the same thing. Scion just didn't sell as well as they needed it to. There was not enough differentiation from Toyota's core product. But Toyota succeeded wildly with Lexus. It just needs a bigger brand differentiation to make it work.
Scions didn't sell as well because Toyota failed to manage the brand well. It wasn't really the same thing but its similar enough to be relevant, I think.
Quote from: qcbaker on November 21, 2016, 02:13:35 PM
They might say that, but its definitely not the truth. H-D intentionally introduces imperfections into their bikes because that's what their customers (diehard harley guys included) want. H-D does this becayse their customers don't "the best bike for their money", they want a "Harley-Davidson". Watcher explained this pretty well (emphasis mine):
Well, whether H-D is introducing "imperfections" is a matter of opinion. It's "features" to satisfy the demands of the market. Indeed, new buyers will be attracted to these old-school behaviors to make them feel like they are riding a Harley, but I think die-hard Harley riders will also like those things because it feels comfortable and familiar.
Just like I don't want an electric motorcycle. I don't care how much more torque it makes or how reliable it is or any of that. I prefer the imperfections of my 25-year-old gasoline bike. And if I buy a new one, I'll be more likely to buy one that feels familiar, like another sub-400lb twin-cylinder air-cooled standard bike.
Truthfully I think other cruiser manufacturers are doing the same thing, aping Harley-Davidson to make a bike that has a tactile feel similar to a H-D to attract buyers who would otherwise choose a Harley. It should be no surprise that many Japanese cruisers are narrow-angle V-twins in the 600-1200cc range. My dad's Honda makes power very much like a Harley, sounds like a Harley, vibrates like a Harley...
Quote
Scions didn't sell as well because Toyota failed to manage the brand well. It wasn't really the same thing but its similar enough to be relevant, I think.
Well, I disagree. And it's hardly similar. Toyota didn't have an institutional bias against the style of cars with the Scion brand.
Quote from: mr72 on November 21, 2016, 03:21:10 PM
Well, whether H-D is introducing "imperfections" is a matter of opinion. It's "features" to satisfy the demands of the market. Indeed, new buyers will be attracted to these old-school behaviors to make them feel like they are riding a Harley, but I think die-hard Harley riders will also like those things because it feels comfortable and familiar.
Whether or not these imperfections make the bike attractive is a matter of opinion. I have no doubt that a lot of riders love that their bike shakes a bunch and has that misfiring rumble in the exhaust. Whether or not they are actually imperfections is not a matter of option. A misfiring, unbalanced engine is not a perfect engine.
Quote
Just like I don't want an electric motorcycle. I don't care how much more torque it makes or how reliable it is or any of that. I prefer the imperfections of my 25-year-old gasoline bike. And if I buy a new one, I'll be more likely to buy one that feels familiar, like another sub-400lb twin-cylinder air-cooled standard bike.
I'm not trying to imply that its wrong for riders to like an imperfect bike. Stuff like that is the "soul" of the bike, if that's how you like to think of things. Those things are so subjective. All I'm saying is that by intentionally introducing such imperfections, H-D is showing that making the "best" bike they can is taking a backseat to making the bike their customers actually want to buy. There's nothing really wrong with that, I would expect a company to do what makes them the most money.
Quote
Truthfully I think other cruiser manufacturers are doing the same thing, aping Harley-Davidson to make a bike that has a tactile feel similar to a H-D to attract buyers who would otherwise choose a Harley. It should be no surprise that many Japanese cruisers are narrow-angle V-twins in the 600-1200cc range. My dad's Honda makes power very much like a Harley, sounds like a Harley, vibrates like a Harley...
I don't doubt that other manufacturers are trying to make bikes similar to Harleys in order to get Harley customers in their corner, but I haven't heard of them intentionally introducing imperfections to do so. It's possible that they're doing it too, but I haven't heard of it. :dunno_black:
Quote
Well, I disagree. And it's hardly similar. Toyota didn't have an institutional bias against the style of cars with the Scion brand.
Toyota's brand image is unobtrusive, reliable, appliance cars. Scion's brand image is sporty/quirky "anything but boring" cars (xB, FR-S, iQ, etc). You can make an argument that Scion's products were in opposition of Toyota's main brand image. Its not as harsh of a difference as Harley/Buell but I think its similar enough to at least be able to draw a legitimate comparison. Then again, like you said, Toyota doesn't seem to have this problem with Lexus, so who knows.
Boy this thread has drifted pretty far from the original topic lol.
double post.
Quote from: mr72 on November 22, 2016, 09:11:23 AM
potayto, potahto.
Making the thing do what customers want to buy is not the same as intentionally introducing "imperfections". A Ducati 90-degree V-twin in a Harley would miss the mark, violate the formula they need, etc. As would an electric Harley. Just because you don't prefer these particular "imperfections" doesn't mean they are worse than what you do prefer. You prefer other imperfections, I am sure. I mean, a motorcycle is a very imperfect vehicle to begin with. Those scooters with two wheels in the front, or even a Can-Am Spyder, are probably much better "motorcycles" but wouldn't they also be more perfect if they were, you know, a car?
I think intentionally making an engine misfire and intentionally unbalancing it because your customers like it is the right decision financially. I'm not faulting H-D for making the bikes their customers want. Doesn't mean misfires and shaking at idle aren't imperfections. A "perfect" cruiser is as comfortable as possible. Shaking all the time and being ridiculously (and in my opinion obnoxiously) loud isn't comfortable, so its an imperfection. But bikes are allowed to be imperfect. Liking those imperfections is fine, I'm not faulting H-D for making the bikes their customers want to buy, or faulting their customers for liking those bikes. My point was that by catering to customers who want an imperfect bike, they are showing that they are more concerned with preserving the image of what a Harley is, which is what their customers care about, rather than the bike itself.
As for my preferences? If I could buy a electric motorcycle that has perfectly linear power delivery, is as comfortable to sit on as a a Goldwing, has the acceleration, handling, and aesthetics of a sportbike, and has amazing off-road capabilities, I totally would. But wanting a bike that is perfect in all ways is ridiculous. This is a game of compromise.
Quote
The point is, there is intentional boundaries on any design for any product no matter what it is, and to market the product you have to conform it to the buyer's expectation even if it doesn't result in a better product.
That is exactly my point.
Quote
I owned a Miata for 15 years, and that's a great example where Mazda deviated very slightly from the formula for a few years and sales dropped and the traditional Miata fans complained and kept their old cars. I currently own a 2015 Jeep Wrangler, which is another prime example of an automaker doing a good job of knowing what customers truly want and sticking to it even when better technology is available... I mean, the suspension design of my Jeep was originally perfected on horse-drawn wagons.
I don't know enough about Jeeps to really comment on the suspension, but ff Jeep is intentionally compromising the off-road capabilities of the Wrangler to keep their customers happy, I don't fault them. But it's the same thing as Harley intentionally making their engines produce less power in the name of exhaust notes. Introducing an imperfection because the image of the vehicle is more important than the vehicle itself.
Quote
That's the definition of the "best" bike they can make. It would be pointless to make one different ("better") if nobody wants to buy it.
I don't mean to suggest Harley should go "Screw our customers, lets make a better bike even if they hate it." They should totally keep making the bikes their customers want, that's how they make their money.
Quote
Buyers already have the alternative to go buy more refined, modern, sporty, better performing, etc. etc. motorcycles from Japanese and European manufacturers. It would be a fool's errand for Harley-Davidson to go outside their core competency and build something that attempts to compete with Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki/Yamaha or Ducati or BMW or KTM... wait a minute, that's exactly what they did with Buell! No wonder it didn't work. This is kind of business, marketing and product management 101. By the way this is what I do for a living. It doesn't help that Harley-Davidson didn't only not have the competency or understanding of the market to produce a competitive sports bike, but also company officials openly disdain the entire market segment.
No argument there.
Quote
They are intentionally introducing features that appeal to the Harley Davidson buyer, which you interpret as "imperfections". The signature vibration of a single-pin crank, 45-degree V-twin is part of the appeal.
If you can find some record of a different manufacturer removing balancing shafts to intentionally make their engine shake more, I'll totally agree with you. Like I said, its totally possible other companies are doing this to compete with H-D. I just haven't heard of it.
Quote
Again I would disagree with this and I guarantee you Toyota's product managers would be upset to hear that this is what buyers think.
There's a reason the "beige camry" is the go-to "boring car" when making a joke. If Toyota isn't aware that the population at large sees Toyotas as reliable appliance cars, then they're seriously out of touch. I own/love a corolla, but I am under no illusions that it is anything but a "get me from point A to point B with no complaints" machine. I have my bike as my "fun" vehicle. Although, I plan on upgrading to a 2015+ WRX at some point. And then my DD will also be a fun vehicle lol.
Quote
But what actually happened is that Scions were regarded as "cheap" cars, and they kind of had no choice. The problem is Toyota's demographic are generally older than they would like, and they were having a hard time attracting new/young car buyers to the brand. Two or three decades ago Toyota was comparably much less expensive than it is today, which easily attracted younger buyers. Now those young buyers are old, and they are buying their second, third, etc. Toyotas and they can spend a lot more on them so Toyota has packed in features and comfort and performance and all that and made the vehicles much more expensive so young buyers were buying Kias and Hyundais and Mazdas instead.
Scion was their effort at creating a car aimed at these younger buyers but they wound up necessarily being much cheaper and it turns out two things happened: one, they didn't compete well with other cheaper cars and two, they didn't successfully target younger buyers. They wound up just targeting the less-expensive-car buyer. But the reality is they need to sell hundreds of thousands a year of any car they make to keep it in production, and Scion was not doing it. So they rebranded the models they wanted to keep back to Toyota and killed the rest, essentially ceding the younger market to the likes of Kia and Fiat.
You're spot on about Toyota buyers being older on average. But that's precisely my point. Those people buy Toyotas because they believe Toyotas are fuel efficient, reliable cars that will get you to work every day. Not because they remember how fun the AE86 Corolla was to drive. There's a reason they stopped making the Supra and the Celica. There's a reason the Corolla XRS sold terribly. Not because they're bad cars. But because Toyota buyers on average don't a fun, sporty car. They want a boring car that will get them where they need to go and not break the bank on gas and maintenance.
You should re-watch ads for the Scion xB if you think Toyota marketed Scion as a "cheap alternative" type of brand. They were targeting younger buyers for sure, but not by advertising that the cars were inexpensive. They highlighted that the cars were quirky and different.
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Yep! Fun times!
But actually scooters are an appropriate comparison. Many motorcycle companies also make scooters and I suspect the same dynamic is at play as the Toyota/Scion thing.
But the Harley/Buell thing is just about getting too far afield of your core competency as a company. Buells may be decent sport bikes, I don't know. But it'd be a serious uphill battle for them to really compete under H-D ownership. They'd be way better off on their own, but I am guessing they lacked the sales volume or dealer network to handle it financially. It's just really tough to start a new company in the midst of mature competition especially when it's something so complicated as a motor vehicle. It's easiest if you pick a really narrow niche (Royal Enfield, etc.).
I dont think motos vs scooters is really the same as the Toyota/Scion thing. I think the venn diagram of scooter buyers vs traditional motorcycle buyers has a pretty small amount of overlap. They're different demographics entirely I think.
You're spot on about Buell there though.
Quote
BTW this brand dilution thing is why Ducati has created "Scrambler by Ducati", but it's a super narrow niche so it may do well without causing people to think Ducs are cheap.
Anyway, all of this to say, these factors depressed the value of used Buell Blasts and likely resulted in you getting what is probably a very good motorcycle for a screamin' bargain.
Well, other manufacturers are also now trying to make scramblers so we'll have to wait and see how well Ducati does in that segment.
But yes, whatever the reasons, I did get the Blast for a good deal lol. KBB on that year is ~$1850 (I got mine for $1650). Comparable bikes (other 500cc sport-standards) are easily a couple hundred dollars more. 2006 versions of the GS500F and Ninja EX500 both easily can fetch above $2K.
Quote from: mr72 on November 22, 2016, 09:11:23 AM
But the Harley/Buell thing is just about getting too far afield of your core competency as a company. Buells may be decent sport bikes, I don't know. But it'd be a serious uphill battle for them to really compete under H-D ownership. They'd be way better off on their own, but I am guessing they lacked the sales volume or dealer network to handle it financially. It's just really tough to start a new company in the midst of mature competition especially when it's something so complicated as a motor vehicle. It's easiest if you pick a really narrow niche (Royal Enfield, etc.).
EBR (Erik Buell Racing) started up in 2009, shortly after the demise of Buell at the hands of HD. First he was making race only bikes with backing from privateers, but in 2015 went public with street legal versions of their race bikes. They just revealed their 2017 concept for a naked, and they're on a rise.
It took him a few years but they are climbing up. Right now EBR dealers are piggybacking on the Euro dealerships (KTM, Duc, Aprillia, etc), but who's to say how it'll be in 10 years from now?
While HD dealerships maybe wasn't the best place to be to compete with the sportbike market, a good marketing strategy was never really applied. There's still people who've never even heard of Buell, but he's been making his own bikes since the 80s.
Even the more obscure manufacturers like KTM, MVAgusta, and RoyalEnfield are getting to be pretty well known these days. While I'm sure you'd attract attention from everyone riding a Brutale or Duke around I think the people that also ride would at least recognize the name. Riding my Buell around "everyone" flags me down and asks "What the hell is that?"
"It's a Buell"
"A what?"
"A Buell. Basically it's a Harley engine in a sport-bike."
"Is it fast?"
"Hell yes!"
Every so often you get someone that recognizes it, or at least recognizes the name, but it seems like 9/10 of those people either know someone with one, owned one, or were going to buy one at some point.
If your name is all but fallen into obscurity it wasn't marketed sufficiently. Erik handled the R&D, HD was supposed to handle the marketing. HD dropped the line to "focus on the Harley Davidson name". Enough said.
Quote from: qcbaker on November 22, 2016, 10:35:00 AM
You're spot on about Toyota buyers being older on average. But that's precisely my point. Those people buy Toyotas because they believe Toyotas are fuel efficient, reliable cars that will get you to work every day.
Nope. It's because they bought a Toyota a decade ago because it was cheap, and it worked great and lasted forever and ran perfectly from day #1 etc. and they are so impressed with the quality and reliability that they are now loyal Toyota buyers. By the time anyone is 35-40 years old in the USA, they have likely already developed a brand loyalty to a particular car brand or a small number of car brands. The problem is Toyota has a limited way to connect with a first-time car buyer because their cars currently are too expensive. The 18-25 year old car buyer, in as much as they can buy a new car, are buying Fiats and Kias. And sometimes Ford Fiestas or Mazda2s. Bully for Ford and Mazda, they have beat Toyota at reaching out to younger buyers who will likely develop new brand loyalties and later on buy a more expensive Ford or Mazda.
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Not because they remember how fun the AE86 Corolla was to drive.
That's because they don't. Nobody noticed an AE86 was fun to drive until they were already 20 years old and Toyota had long since abandoned RWD cars or anything that would rev to 8K rpms. That was an experiment Toyota did at the heyday of the economy-car boom that, from a marketing perspective, flopped. They also had an MR2 at the time, if you recall, and it was a seriously wicked little car to drive. But that also went the way of the dodo for the same reason. These cars were market flops in Toyota terms.
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There's a reason they stopped making the Supra and the Celica. There's a reason the Corolla XRS sold terribly. Not because they're bad cars. But because Toyota buyers on average don't a fun, sporty car. They want a boring car that will get them where they need to go and not break the bank on gas and maintenance.
That's again totally untrue. It has nothing to do with "Toyota buyers". It's because the size of the market for these types of cars in total dollars (and therefore total number of cars) is too small for Toyota to be successful. If Toyota had a business structure that could support keeping a model in the market that only sold 5-20K units a year then we'd still have Supras, MR2s, AE86-derivatives... but they can't. If the car sells only 20,000 units, they kill it. OTOH Mazda has had the MX-5/Miata in the lineup now for 27 years and they have had sales dip into the sub 10K range some years and as high as 50K other years, and they have the stomach for that kind of market. It's because the Miata is largely Mazda's branding icon, and the Camry is Toyota's branding icon. Mazda would not sell 3s and 6s if they killed the Miata because the allure of a company who is dedicated to fun cars would go away. And if Toyota killed the Camry it would kill Toyota because it's the gold standard of reliability, quality and longevity.
Toyota is simply not tooled as a company to build any model of car that cannot sell 100Ks a year globally. Mazda, Fiat, most European companies, etc., do not have the same economies of scale that dictate a minimum demand to make it worth it.
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You should re-watch ads for the Scion xB if you think Toyota marketed Scion as a "cheap alternative" type of brand. They were targeting younger buyers for sure, but not by advertising that the cars were inexpensive. They highlighted that the cars were quirky and different.
Oh, I didn't say they MARKETED the cars as cheap alternatives. They were just PERCEIVED as a cheap alternative mostly because they were actually cheaper.
This is just like how Honda marketed the Element as this go-anywhere adventure type vehicle compatible with young, active lifestyles, with every ad featuring twentysomething rock climbers, mountain bikers and hikers, parked near a lake or a mountain doing things we think are cool and adventuresome. But who actually bought them more frequently were middle-aged dog owners who loved the tough interiors and didn't have a need for back seat passengers to be able to actually let themselves out of the car. And they sold in about 20% the target numbers for Honda so they killed it. Great cars! I owned one! But it's just a mismatch between the product's intended market and who actually winds up buying it.
Alas I think this is related to the Buell Blast thing. Basically Buell didn't like beginners buying Buells, and Harley-Davidson didn't like anyone buying sport bikes. So the Blast was killed because they didn't want Buell to become associated with beginner motorcycles, and Harley killed Buell because they didn't want to participate in that market segment which is seen as competing with cruisers rather than expanding their audience.
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Well, other manufacturers are also now trying to make scramblers so we'll have to wait and see how well Ducati does in that segment.
My point is Ducati created a whole new BRAND for that style of motorcycle in order to avoid the brand association of Ducati = $8K scramblers in the mind of buyers. Kind of like Yamaha and "Bolt". Or Toyota and Lexus.
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But yes, whatever the reasons, I did get the Blast for a good deal lol. KBB on that year is ~$1850 (I got mine for $1650). Comparable bikes (other 500cc sport-standards) are easily a couple hundred dollars more. 2006 versions of the GS500F and Ninja EX500 both easily can fetch above $2K.
Man. Must be a strange market there. A Buell Blast around here is a $1200 bike if it's solid and usable, and I see them all the time for $500-800. If one was listed at $1850 then it'd be on Craigslist for months until someone finally talked them down to below $1500, even if it was dead mint.
And GS500s that are complete, clean and working will get $2K here no matter the year model. Same for EX500s.
We'll just have to agree to disagree about the Scion thing. I can see there's no changing your mind here lol.
Quote from: mr72 on November 22, 2016, 11:57:31 AM
I think this is related to the Buell Blast thing. Basically Buell didn't like beginners buying Buells, and Harley-Davidson didn't like anyone buying sport bikes. So the Blast was killed because they didn't want Buell to become associated with beginner motorcycles, and Harley killed Buell because they didn't want to participate in that market segment which is seen as competing with cruisers rather than expanding their audience.
Agree completely.
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My point is Ducati created a whole new BRAND for that style of motorcycle in order to avoid the brand association of Ducati = $8K scramblers in the mind of buyers. Kind of like Yamaha and "Bolt". Or Toyota and Lexus.
Ahh, I get you.
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Man. Must be a strange market there. A Buell Blast around here is a $1200 bike if it's solid and usable, and I see them all the time for $500-800. If one was listed at $1850 then it'd be on Craigslist for months until someone finally talked them down to below $1500, even if it was dead mint.
And GS500s that are complete, clean and working will get $2K here no matter the year model. Same for EX500s.
Huh, I had no idea Blasts were so cheap elsewhere. All the ones I've seen up here (Central PA) are $1500+ for a running one in good condition, less for ones that need work. I checked KBB before I made any sort of offer to be sure I was getting a fair deal. :dunno_black:
GS500s and EX500s seem to be similarly priced to your area though... Maybe Texas just hates Buell? lol
Blasts in good condition usually go between $1200-1500 out here.
Usually follows GS500 pricing... ish...
FWIW, in my BBA program we studied Toyota relatively extensively, and the Scion brand was definitely marketed towards the 18-20something market in an effort to establish brand loyalty. They pulled me in at 18...I bought a brand new xB. Drove it off the lot for under 18 grand, and it was everything I wanted. Cheap, quirky, fun, fuel efficient (cheap). But I didn't stick around as a customer...my last vehicle purchase (for my wife/primary family vehicle) was a Mazda CX-5. I liked the Scion, but it just didn't sell me on the brand loyalty. I'm not sure why they decided to nix the brand, but I can also attest that while driving the xB, I noticed most other people driving them were middle-aged women. Maybe they just weren't able to market to their target young customers as effectively as they had intended. Anyway, just my two cents on that random side topic 😂
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Quote from: rscottlow on November 29, 2016, 03:07:33 PM
FWIW, in my BBA program we studied Toyota relatively extensively, and the Scion brand was definitely marketed towards the 18-20something market in an effort to establish brand loyalty. ...
I can also attest that while driving the xB, I noticed most other people driving them were middle-aged women. Maybe they just weren't able to market to their target young customers as effectively as they had intended.
Yes that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Regardless of how Toyota
intended to market the Scion, a completely different demographic bought them than they had intended due to low cost, Toyota's reputation for reliability and the general utility of them. A Scion was viewed as Toyota quality for less money. The xB in particular also had an extra element of utility .. a legitimate 4-door with a giant hatchback area that got 40mpg for under $20K? Dream car for grandmas and retired dog owners.
It's just a really challenging demographic to meet for a company like Toyota that needs to leverage economies of scale that feed a more expensive bulk car market. And Toyota doesn't have a business model that can sustain offering a model of car that sells in the low 10Ks per year like some other companies can (Mazda, for example).
It's an interesting side topic and I think it fits the odds n ends forum quite well :)
Quote from: mr72 on November 30, 2016, 07:54:57 AM
Yes that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Regardless of how Toyota intended to market the Scion, a completely different demographic bought them than they had intended due to low cost, Toyota's reputation for reliability and the general utility of them. A Scion was viewed as Toyota quality for less money. The xB in particular also had an extra element of utility .. a legitimate 4-door with a giant hatchback area that got 40mpg for under $20K? Dream car for grandmas and retired dog owners.
It's just a really challenging demographic to meet for a company like Toyota that needs to leverage economies of scale that feed a more expensive bulk car market. And Toyota doesn't have a business model that can sustain offering a model of car that sells in the low 10Ks per year like some other companies can (Mazda, for example).
It's an interesting side topic and I think it fits the odds n ends forum quite well :)
It's interesting really...I saw the FR-S as a big competitor for the Miata. I know Toyota and Subaru are still making that car, but I just wonder how long that will last. From everything I've read and heard, it's a fun little car. Underpowered, RWD, and fun to drive, just like the Miata. If I didn't have two little kids, I'd have one in the driveway lol.
Quote from: rscottlow on November 30, 2016, 01:22:33 PM
It's interesting really...I saw the FR-S as a big competitor for the Miata.
Same as most people who don't really understand the Miata did. BTW I owned a Miata for 15 years and this is a topic near and dear to my heart. I miss that car a lot.
QuoteI know Toyota and Subaru are still making that car, but I just wonder how long that will last. From everything I've read and heard, it's a fun little car. Underpowered, RWD, and fun to drive, just like the Miata. If I didn't have two little kids, I'd have one in the driveway lol.
Well, a Miata is hardly underpowered, and I really did get tired of that cliché. Just because Americans don't understand how to rev an engine past 4,000 rpm doesn't mean a sports car is underpowered. And just because people don't understand how to take a corner does not make a lightweight car slow. My 2000 Miata would do 0-60 in a shade over 6 seconds with only a very mildly warmed over engine (headers and free-flowing exhaust, open intake, +0.5points compression ratio). But anyway, that's not the point. I have no idea if the FR-S/BR-Z is underpowered, but it might be considering the weight of the car. They are 400-500lb heavier than a current Miata... that's nearly a 25% weight increase. That's similar to the weight difference between a FR-S and a Mustang. If you wouldn't call a Mustang lightweight in the same way that a FR-S is, then a FR-S is not really lightweight in the same way as a Miata.
Anyway, I think the FR-S/BR-Z really are without category competitors in the market right now. They are a niche-defining product. Used to be there were many cars in this niche, but not any more. A BR-Z has a lot more in common with a 90s 300ZX or RX-7, or even the recent RX-8, and even a non-turbo Supra, than it does with anything else in the current US market. IMHO! I guess that makes it kind of retro.
And BTW when I bought my Miata, brand new, my kids were 3 and 6. We never once owned a mini-van. You can make a sports car work with little kids, if you really want to. Both of my daughters learned to drive in my Miata.
Anyway... from what I can tell it looks like they are selling 40K-60K BRZ+FRS each year. That's over double the most Mazda EVER sold of Miatas in one year, and there were many years that Mazda sold only 4-5K units TOTAL. And on average, Mazda sold about 2x as many Miatas as Porsche did Boxsters. This is the point here. Toyota has not tooled their business such that it can tolerate sub-100K annual sales numbers for any car while many other automakers would be ecstatic with the sales numbers Scion gets. Scion as a brand sold between about 45K and 200K cars each year (all models combined), which is about 1/3 on average the total sales of Mazda, and Mazda had far more models to spread that around. Nobody thinks Mazda is a failing automaker or should be shut down. They just have a completely different business model. They intentionally set out to brand the company as making a cars that "few people love" rather than cars that "many people like", and they scaled their business to tolerate the "few" people buying their cars and still succeed.
Americans just don't buy lightweight cars anymore. Not enough cup holders or power outlets. And it's a shrinking number of drivers who can even drive a manual transmission car anymore, and among those who can, many are getting old and just don't want a rough-riding, loud, amenity-free Japanese $30K sports car; they are old/affluent enough to buy a Porsche or BMW, or they don't drive their toy car daily so they get a classic car like a 240Z or an 80s 911 instead. But the FR-S is really the worst kind of Scion brand mismatch. Millennials, who are supposedly targeted as Scion buyers, generally can't drive a stick shift car and have no appreciation for sports cars of any flavor, and those outside the target demo can afford something else. So most FR-S buyers wind up being older than the target demo, folks looking for a cheaper fun car that they can modify or take to the racetrack. One that a blown transmission or broken lower control arm won't wind up costing many-$K in repairs. And Toyota doesn't want to market a car that's just the poor-man's Cayman... they'd rather brand it Toyota or Lexus, put turbos on it and heated leather seats and make it $50-60K and sell it to the same Cayman cross-shoppers for 2-3x the profit. But to be worth it they'd have to sell >100K/year of them, and they already two cars in that segment (Lexus RC and RC-F).
I see what you're getting at. I suppose my comparison was based more so on it being an inexpensive, fun little car, rather than on specs. My little brother has three Miatas (one that he totaled, and is just a parts car now), and the FR-S was a car I thought of as comparable for cruising with him and maybe taking to the track every now and then. To me, the FR-S is more similar to the Miata in those aspects than an S2000 or a Z4 (and compared to those, I'd still say the Miata is underpowered). I'm not saying Miatas are slow...my brother takes his to the track almost weekly during the summer, and runs better times than a lot of guys in much more powerful cars.
As far as a little car for me goes...it just doesn't really fit my lifestyle. I'd love to have one for fun, but I'd have a hard time making it work for a daily. My wife drives a CX-5, and that's our primary family vehicle (for the record, it's a stick shift!). Both of my kids are still in car seats, and there's really no way to make that work with an FR-S. I pick up the kids from daycare three days a week, so I have to be able to transport them in my vehicle. Plus, we're likely buying a travel trailer within the next year or so, which makes a truck my only practical option. So the GS is my "fun" vehicle, at least until the kids are a little older.
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Not to revert subjects, but I took the Blast out for a short little ride last night. My gf is away on a family trip and I didn't want her bike to sit too long without some degree of attention. Bike hesitated a little bit starting (it was cold, and the bike had been sitting since the day I brought it home) but it did start. So thankfully, the battery seems to be in decent shape. After riding around for like 20 minutes to warm it up, I pulled the bike back into my dad's driveway and parked it. We then just kinda hung out and talked about bikes a bit while it cooled down. After it cooled enough that I wasn't scared I would severely burn myself, I wanted to inspect the headers more thoroughly because of Watcher's comment about the rust. I was pretty confident in my initial "they look a little rusty, but it isn't bad" assessment, but I wanted to be sure. Indeed, they look worse in the picture than they actually are. They're a weird combination of very lightly rusted but pretty dirty, so in well lit pics they look badly rusted, but they aren't bad. So the rust isn't much more than a cosmetic concern right now. I'll probably give the bike a thorough cleaning at some point and re-evaluate if I should sand all the paint off and re-spray the exhaust with high-temp stuff.
As for the topic at hand: Like I said before, my daily driver is my Corolla, and my fun vehicle is my GS. However, I'm very close (only a couple hundred dollars) to having the Corolla paid off. Once that happens, I'm gonna start saving for a newer car. My plan is to save for about a year, then use that + my corolla as a trade-in as a decent down payment on a newer WRX. The WRX is sporty enough to be fun to drive, but practical enough to be a daily driver (or at least I've convinced myself of that lol).
Quote from: rscottlow on November 30, 2016, 07:14:00 PM
S2000 or a Z4 (and compared to those, I'd still say the Miata is underpowered).
Only if the power of a car is an isolated thing unrelated to the dimensions (size, weight) of the car...
I mean, a Z4 is
a thousand pounds heavier than a Miata, and an S2000 is 500 lb heavier. Those cars need more power and more of everything than a Miata simply because of the size and weight.
I can't remember who said it, but the axiom is true: adding horsepower makes a car faster in a straight line, reducing weight makes a car faster everywhere.
I always thought girls on scooters were cuter than on a motorcycle. Anyway, where are you located? I am selling 2 at the moment
I'm near Austin, TX. And I think I'm out of the market for a scooter until at least spring of next year.
Quote from: Watcher on November 21, 2016, 01:15:14 PM
I think the whole Harley lifestyle sans performance is 100% true. To the point where their ECMs are programmed to misfire to keep that HD sound.
To the point they REMOVED balancing shafts from upcoming engine designs because customers complained it was too smooth.
Why does my XB12SS have essentially the same engine as a Harley Sportster but it's smoother, makes about 30 more horses, and has about twice the torque?
Why did it take them this damn long to hop on the bandwagon and make a 750/500cc bike to fit the learner crowd (but they're still $8000 bikes)?
It IS a lifestyle.
With the resurgence of Indian and Victory stealing customers they need to up their game if they want to stay competitive. Victory is making nicer machines for the same money, and Indian is a classic name and iconic style reborn and is taking many HD riders over. It's probably the only reason we saw small bikes from HD. Get them started young and keep them...
And if you need ANY proof that it was HD that killed off Buell, Buell had already developed the Rotax 1125 engine and was moving away from HD supply lines when they got hung, despite claims from HD that Buell wouldn't have been able to be independent because of how reliant they were on HD for parts, Buell was dissolved only 2 years after HD purchased all the assets (2 years is a short time to decide it's a financial draw rather than a profit. What, they couldn't see the recession this whole time they were still purchasing the company? How short-sighted are they? I hope the economic projections guy also got fired), and HD also owned MVAgusta at the time and decided to SELL them.
HD didn't even try to sell Buell and instead just destroyed them, they barely marketed Buell while owning them, they basically thought Buells were toy bikes and that when the riders "grew up" they'd get a Harley anyway, so why would they waste the money on all these trade-ins?
HD killed Buell. Bottom line.
the heads on your xb12ss are of the higher compression variety. you can pretty much bolt them onto a 1200cc sportie and get the same results.
Aaron