Not a great day wrenching on the GS...
Installed LEDs in the dash and Diodes (1N4001) at the indicator using Adidasguy's schematics. I double and triple checked the directions while installing the diodes. Everything was installed correctly, so I proceeded with installing LED front and rear turnsignals and tailight.
- Selecting the Left signal = the left side would work perfectly, but no indicator on the dash.
- Selecting the Right signal = all of the turn signals flash at the same time, but the dash indicator works.
- Researched the forum and found that I needed to upgrade my TSR to an electronic one. So I installed an electronic EP34 relay. Still could not get the flashers to work correctly.
- While troubleshooting the signals with the power ON, I saw smoke coming from behind the dash. Turned off the power and the diodes were burning and melting the wire harness.
I don't know what caused this or what went wrong, I've conducted loads of research on the forum.
Does anyone have all LEDs without a problem? I don't know where to start now...
I have led dash lights and turn signals, and I have some of the same problems, mainly the indicator on the dash for the turn signal only works for left hand turns, it wont indicate for right hand turns.
When I signal to the right, the dash indicator works but all of the signals come on. :dunno_black:
I am still reading various posts and one post by adidasguy states the diodes have a specific direction they need to be connected... I am not sure if I verified the direction :dunno_black:.
I hope the fire didn't burn out the wiring harness or the plug connector, as I'll be back at it again. Meanwhile I'll be :bowdown: for a solution.
I hear ya, its almost not worth it to use the LED's, it just seems like a big hassle and headache. I even tried one of those LED blinker relays from ebay, it didn't work either.
If you are sure you've installed the diodes the correct way around - are you sure you cut the appropriate wire? If you didn't cut any wires and just scraped the outer off then that will create a dead short which would cause what you are describing.
Double check you have the diodes the correct way around anyway (even if they were the wrong way they shouldn't have caused the smoke to be let out - the circuit wouldn't work).
When I bought my GS, it had LED signals installed, but they have never worked correctly. I've asked around here a couple of times, and have only received relatively vague responses so I've put this off to a winter project and have been using hand signals as needed. I've yet to hear from anyone that has been able to get these to work properly. My brother is an electrical engineering student - he looked at the wiring diagram with his boss at his co-op job, and they both said the wiring doesn't make much sense on the GS... :dunno_black:
I'm buying another pair of diodes and I'm going to get to the bottom of this. Keep you guys posted.
A 1N4001 is rated for typical 1.0A forward current, so if you had it reversed and for whatever reason it was connected in such a way to allow 2-3x that much current (which is not much in a 12V system) then that's how it got smoked.
[EDIT: removed totally irrelevant information]
I put a post containing this in my project build.
On the later ( don't know about the earlier ones) the dash indicator light uses a differential circuit to run the singlelight for both left and right indicator. If you use a LED dash light it becomes obvious pretty quickly.
Best most reliable way is to use TWO dash indicator lights:
Disconnect wires going to the stock dash indicator.
Run a wire from each led indicator to the respective dash led ( correct tag ie +ve)
Then from the dash indicator ( -ve) to an earth.
Everything will work and you will know WHICH indicator is actually on. No need for diodes.
Quote from: mr72 on October 25, 2016, 04:30:48 AM
A 1N4001 is rated for typical 1.0A forward current, so if you had it reversed and for whatever reason it was connected in such a way to allow 2-3x that much current (which is not much in a 12V system) then that's how it got smoked.
Also, what size resistors did you use for the LEDs? Too small (in ohms) of a resistor could easily result in more than 1.0A current draw and overload those 1N4001s even if you had them hooked correctly... but this would only happen while the LED was actually lit, like the tail light on while the ignition is on.
I think a 1N4001 may be too small for this application anyway. Maybe a 1N5401 would be better? Or maybe that would allow you to burn the wire instead of the diode. You might measure the current through that circuit by doing the math after measuring the voltage across your resistor to see if you are overloading the diode in normal use, and if so, how much.
mr72 - That's great advice. Man, when it comes determining voltage and calculating numbers I get lost. Electrical work is way over my head, actually any mechanical work is over my head. Thanks to the wealth of knowledge on this forum, I've built up the courage (and my toolbox) to tackle some of these minor projects. So I definitely do not want to burn the wiring, so I'll give the 1N4001s another shot. I have 20W resistors, I was using at the rear turnsignals hoping to balance it all out to no avail....
Quote from: gregjet on October 25, 2016, 07:24:10 PM
I put a post containing this in my project build.
On the later ( don't know about the earlier ones) the dash indicator light uses a differential circuit to run the singlelight for both left and right indicator. If you use a LED dash light it becomes obvious pretty quickly.
Best most reliable way is to use TWO dash indicator lights:
Disconnect wires going to the stock dash indicator.
Run a wire from each led indicator to the respective dash led ( correct tag ie +ve)
Then from the dash indicator ( -ve) to an earth.
Everything will work and you will know WHICH indicator is actually on. No need for diodes.
gregjet - loved your build, you sure know a lot about custom fabrication. I'd love to learn how you customized those rear sets and that tail! That's ass and fun bags! :bowdown:
I think you might be on to something, I read your thread and I had the same issue of only one side working. Now I have a few questions:
1. You mentioned, to utilize two dash indicator lights. Do you mean two different bulbs? I have a stock set up, were you referring to using two different indicator bulbs as in using the stock indicator and the high beam indicator? Or were you stating to add another new indicator light? Any suggestions with the stock set up?
2. You mentioned to run a wire from each indicator to each LED, does that mean run a positive only wire to each LED, then ground the other indicator wire?
Last question, what does this mean (correct tag ie +ve) and this ( -ve) to an earth?
Thanks for the tips appreciate any clarification you could provide.
My apologies. Considering I used to write instruction manuals as part of my job I have no excuse.
If you saw my project you would have noticed that the indicators are on the speedo/tacho and it had one for each side as it came. I originally was being lazy and tried to wire only one of them and use the stock wire feeds. As we now know that doesn't work with leds. So after a painful tracing of what I hoped was the correct circuit diagram and finding the ridiculous differential circuit the obvious answer was to use the lights as they were on the speedo unit and wire one for each side. One of those things where you are searching for a solution to one problem and find a better solution for a problem you weren't even trying to solve.
The -ve and +ve bits refer to the anode ( positive tag, +ve) and it's stereo pair the cathode ( negative , -ve). Because leds are diodes they are polarity sensitive.
":You mentioned to run a wire from each indicator to each LED, does that mean run a positive only wire to each LED, then ground the other indicator wire?" Yes that is correct. You can run it from the wiring connector on the bike under the tank rather than the actual physical indicator of course. In my case, the resultant wires then end up going from the indicator wire to the dash panel loom connector so was very short and hidden.
Quote from: gregjet on October 26, 2016, 01:31:50 PM
...
The -ve and +ve bits refer to the anode ( positive tag, +ve) and it's stereo pair the cathode ( negative , -ve). Because leds are diodes they are polarity sensitive.
...
Looking at the wiring diagram, it seems that either the Lt. Green or Black wire will go to +12V intermittently on the back side of the relay when the turn signal is activated. So you could just put two LEDs, each anode to either Black or Lt. Green wire and the cathodes through a resistor to ground on whatever ground is handy in the area (black/white wire to speedo light, for example). Shove both LEDs in the housing and be done with it. It'll blink one or the other LED when either turn signal is activated and won't cause them to both blink or not blink. If you are attentive to left/right then you might even get some indication of which turn signal is on at the indicator.
Excuse my rough ASCII art...
^^
---Lt.Grn--+---|>|-----+
|
|
^^ |
---Blk-----+---|>|-----+--/\/\/\----+---GND
There are other ways to do this but this will be easiest.
EDIT: Just to be clear, according to the wiring diagram, the black and lt. green wires should be the ones that go to the stock turn signal indicator. They should already be there when you take out the original bulb. I say this only having studied the wiring diagram and not having had my own bike apart, FYI.
You guys are awesome! I've purchased the LEDs, now I'll have to wait for the weekend to get started. Fingers crossed I have a good feeling about this.
Love the ASCII art. Been a long time...
Used to work in a very large computer driven govt organization in IT. For most of my IT life we use mainframes and mini's for most of our work. There was always someone playing around with "ASCII" art on the login screens. Mt favourite was the blinking light Xmas trees. Some people have too much time...
mr72 - just read your edit, now I am really confused.... Based on the diagram, I am supposed to connect both the stock LT. Green and Black wires together, then connect them all to the ground? What is this (/\/\/\)? How is this different from the diode mod I initially set up from adiddasguy's diagram? Found on this link (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=24282.0)?
^^
---Lt.Grn--+---|>|-----+
|
|
^^ |
---Blk-----+---|>|-----+--/\/\/\----+---GND
And he needs to know what value/power resistor to use :dunno_black:
Quote from: Mr. BIGGZ on October 27, 2016, 11:03:34 PM
mr72 - just read your edit, now I am really confused.... Based on the diagram, I am supposed to connect both the stock LT. Green and Black wires together, then connect them all to the ground? What is this (/\/\/\)? How is this different from the diode mod I initially set up from adiddasguy's diagram? Found on this link (http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=24282.0)?
This: /\/\/\ is a resistor. It's the dropping resistor for the LEDs. Limits current in the LED, preventing things from catching on fire, among other things. I am beginning to think you didn't have any dropping resistor.
No, you connect Lt.Grn to the anode of one LED, and Blk to the anode of another LED, and then connect their cathodes together, then connect those two cathodes junction to a resistor, and run the resistor to ground.
The adidasguy diagram uses the "two ordinary diodes" method I mentioned that ALSO uses an LED+resistor (or normal bulb) that is not indicated in the diagram.
I presumed anyone doing an LED light mod already had sorted the resistor values somehow since you can't replace any of the normal bulbs with just an LED and no resistor, otherwise you will draw a ton of current and smoke things. The resistor value (both wattage and resistance) needs to be chosen to suit the particular LED you are using and be the same value as what is used on the other LEDs you are using in the dashboard (high beams indicator, neutral indicator, etc.). If you haven't chosen a value or don't know what value to use, then I would suggest starting with 470 ohms to 1K 1/2 watt resistors for all of the dash resistors. 470 ohms will make it brighter, 1K less so, values in between, well, between. If it's too bright with 1K then use 1.2K, 1.5K, etc. Just don't go below 470 without consulting the LED datasheet and doing the math. Your turn signals may blink a little bit faster with the LEDs in the dash than with a normal bulb but you probably won't notice much difference.
more info here: https://www.superbrightleds.com/led-info/
Back to the original problem of the diodes on fire:
Given the symptoms it looks like you just connected the diodes BETWEEN Lt.Grn and Blk, not from Lt.Grn to the bulb and from Blk to the bulb as in the drawing. So what's happening is when you select the right turn signal, the relay output is shorted (through the diodes) between left and right and you get all turn signals flashing. When you select left, the left signal works correctly but since the diodes are reverse biased in the middle, the indicator doesn't work (the diodes prevent current from flowing to the indicator).
Since you actually smoked the diodes without the turn signals on, that tells me you might have connected some wrong wire that is at +12V in the dash to ground through the diodes, which also means maybe you connected Blk and ground together? Basically in order to smoke them, those diodes must be jumpering 12V to ground all the time.
I think you just wired it wrong. Sorry. I'd have to see a picture of what you've done. Replacing the diodes with new ones will just result in smoking new ones unless you identify you wiring error. And if you take my (wrong) advice from before and put bigger diodes, then it'll probably just allow it to blow the fuse or burn up a wire somewhere. Maybe kill the turn signal relay.
Following this thread closely - getting my turn signals working is a priority for this winter, along with checking valve clearances. Probably both things I should have done already...
Make sure you use the EP relay.
The stock item is designed to accommodate far more current and far less resistance than an led setup delivers. It simply won't function.
470 ohms is about right for a 1.7v led at 12v. 0.25w is right on the limit, shouldn't be to much of an issue because its used intermittently but I suggest you position them somewhere that's not enclosed in case things do get warm.
You can buy 12v automotive LEDS that have the appropiate resistor built in.
Quote from: mr72 on October 25, 2016, 04:30:48 AM
A 1N4001 is rated for typical 1.0A forward current, so if you had it reversed and for whatever reason it was connected in such a way to allow 2-3x that much current (which is not much in a 12V system) then that's how it got smoked.
[EDIT: removed totally irrelevant information]
Quote from: gregjet on October 25, 2016, 07:24:10 PM
I put a post containing this in my project build.
On the later ( don't know about the earlier ones) the dash indicator light uses a differential circuit to run the singlelight for both left and right indicator. If you use a LED dash light it becomes obvious pretty quickly.
Best most reliable way is to use TWO dash indicator lights:
Disconnect wires going to the stock dash indicator.
Run a wire from each led indicator to the respective dash led ( correct tag ie +ve)
Then from the dash indicator ( -ve) to an earth.
Everything will work and you will know WHICH indicator is actually on. No need for diodes.
Gregjet & mr72 - in the voice of tattoo from Fantasy Island, "it worked! It worked!!" Since my understanding of the GS' electrical system can be compared to that of a 3 year old, here is where I am so far. I purchased 3 different LEDs and a pair of diodes from RadioShack. Following your recommendations and detailed posts, I attempted to run 2 different indicators. I wanted to avoid using diodes at all costs.
Following your informative advice, I attempted my best to comprehend the schematics and mathematical calculations, to run 2 indicators and install them in the stock turn signal indicator housing. Since I had previously cut the stock indicator wires to install diodes, I tested things behind the gauges. I had to clean up the burnt wires and remove the diodes anyway. For the diode mod, I had cut both the Gr and Blk wires at the indicator. I connected the GR wire from the indicator back to Gr wire from the wiring harness, the way it was stock; however, I connected the black wire coming from the indicator to a ground. The Blk wire coming from the harness, I connected to the (+) end of a Radio shack Pre-wired LED with a built in resistor and (+,-) wires. The (-) end of the LED I connected to a ground.
As a result, everything worked perfect. No 4 way blinking, no fast flash, and the indicator LEDs worked for both sides. No issues at all, even though I did not use any diodes or external resistors. When using the other LEDs from RadioShack - that did not have built in resistors - they did not work at all, regardless of how I connected them.
So a huge THANK YOU for the guidance and clarification provided.
Now, where I can still use some guidance is what kind of LED can I install in the stock housing? The RadioShack LED states 100 mcd and it was to dim to notice, even at night. I was able to stuff the LED and stock indicator into the stock housing; however, the RadioShack LED was barely noticeable even at night time.
Any tips on how I can install a brighter LED with a built in resistor? The LEDS I have are from SuperbrightLeds.
Thanks again, gentlemen! Your time spent helping me and others in the forums is much appreciated!
if it didn't work AT ALL (like no dash LEDs) with the superbrite LEDs no matter resistor or not, then either a) you had the diodes backwards or b) you fried the diodes because they require a resistor to limit current.
Reason the ones you tried are too dim is because the resistor is too big. But since it's built in, you can't fix it. You need a meter to check any of this.
Or just start over with whatever superbrite LEDs sells you specifically for automotive dashboard LEDs AND resistors if they are not integrated.
Quote from: mr72 on October 30, 2016, 06:51:58 PM
if it didn't work AT ALL (like no dash LEDs) with the superbrite LEDs no matter resistor or not, then either a) you had the diodes backwards or b) you fried the diodes because they require a resistor to limit current.
Reason the ones you tried are too dim is because the resistor is too big. But since it's built in, you can't fix it. You need a meter to check any of this.
Or just start over with whatever superbrite LEDs sells you specifically for automotive dashboard LEDs AND resistors if they are not integrated.
Everything works great, when I select a new LED bulb I'll keep you abreast of how it looks. :cheers:
There are LED bulb replacements that are as good or better than the stock bulb BUT!!!! they are a bit difficult to find. Most are dim rubbish. I think Phillips ( branded) now makes equal brightness ones and I will bet there are others.I bought complete blinkers picked to be brighter than stock bulbs . I also finally found a brake/tail that is REALLY good straight plug in ( automotive store). It is getting easier and easier to find them, but still not as simple as it should be. I think there are huge amounts of the old weak leds out there that has to be sold off first.
The new Phillips tungsten element emulator headlights bulbs are excellent. They focus in standard bulb headlights properly and are way brighter. At least they are easy to find via a online search.