I've been wanting to make one, to give it more of the old fashioned cafe racer look.
Good news for the rest of you out there... Suzuki used some amazingly tough paint and decals!
I tried several coats of basic paint stripper, and the tank just laughed at it even after an hour soak. Even the decals wouldn't come off!
Had to apply a heat gun to the decals, and even then it took a lot of scraping. Then tried roughing up the surface of the tank with 150 grit sandpaper, in the hopes that rubbing off the clear coat would give the paint stripper something to bite into. Still no luck.
Any tips out there? Next step will be the cautious use of an angle grinder with some light sanding discs.
If I ever get this completed, thinking maybe clear powder coating to prevent rust?
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e124/Endopotential/IMG_1450_zpsyc0agumn.jpg) (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/Endopotential/media/IMG_1450_zpsyc0agumn.jpg.html)
Aircraft Stripper, available at Autozone or wherever. DON'T bother with the spray on stuff - it is self defeating. Get yourself a wide (and cheap) paint brush to spread the stripper on the tank, and a sheet of saran wrap to lay over top after it is spread. The saran wrap helps with the chemical process of the paint stripper. Will probably take 3 coats to get all the paint off.
One final word of advice: take the warnings on aircraft stripper VERY serious! They could have called it Flesh / eyeball / lung stripper, and it would still be appropriate.....
+1 for Aircraft Remover. The spray works well on paints that aren't cleared, for automotive applications the brush on is the way to go.
Or, if you want to use the grinder, do something like this.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/924/jOQ0Tj.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pojOQ0Tjj)
Tie some sandpaper belt in a knot and keep wrapping it until you get a pad. Punch a hole in the center, and attach it to your grinder.
Eats through paint like a fat, self loathing, gamer nerd through Doritos. Since it's thick it lasts forever and since it's soft it conforms to curves and won't want to burn out a high spot so fast.
But it will leave swirls on the bare steel if you go that deep. If you want that then cool. If not, just eat through the clear and finish the job with your stripper.
Doritos? That's hilarious :cheers:
That sandpaper trick is a great idea, thanks so much. Will do a side to side comparison with the Aircraft Remover.
And "finish the job with my stripper"? Now you're giving me other ideas...
Quote from: Endopotential on October 29, 2016, 09:36:57 PM
Doritos? That's hilarious :cheers:
That sandpaper trick is a great idea, thanks so much. Will do a side to side comparison with the Aircraft Remover.
And "finish the job with my stripper"? Now you're giving me other ideas...
Endo - you just proved what I've been thinking, regardless of how nice our bike may look or how many upgrades we've added to our bikes we'll never be finished.
One thing that comes to mind-
Just sanding the tank will give bare metal with sanding marks in all directions.The only good options i can think of are to try to sand evenly, polish to a mirror finish evenly or go with the method they use to finish DeLoreans. That involves a large,relatively slow flap sander that is used in one direction only -in the case of delorean bodies-horizontal only.
Sorry i dont know the proper name for these types of sander heads.I'll tryto find the correct name and a picture so if you cant buy one,at least you can DIY one
Quote from: Endopotential on October 29, 2016, 05:30:15 PM
I've been wanting to make one, to give it more of the old fashioned cafe racer look....
If I ever get this completed, thinking maybe clear powder coating to prevent rust?
"Aircraft remover" will get most of the paint off. When I say "most", I mean like 90%. That will still leave a lot of paint on there. Figure the tank's top/side surface are what, three square feet? Then you will have maybe a quarter of a square foot of paint left, and it'll be along seams and low spots and crevices and everywhere else you wish the aircraft stripper would have worked. Then you will either need to sandblast (probably bad idea with a gas tank since you'll get sand/media in the tank almost gutaranteed) or spend a lot of time with little pieces of sandpaper and also a micro belt sander.
Annnd... you probably don't want to do it anyway. Once the metal is bare it will start to rust immediately. It will get surface rust on it in just a few minutes, long before you can get the paint remnant sanded out. Handling it will cause it to make rusty fingerprints all over because of the chemicals in your skin reacting with the steel. Trying to keep bare steel from rusting while trying to make it shiny or have an even finish is going to be a fool's errand. And don't believe anyone who tells you that you can get any rattle-can clear to stick to bare steel. You can't. And you also can't get a catalyzed pro paint type clear to stick to bare steel. The reality is that in order to get any paint to stick to it, you are going to have to sand/prep it so the surface is too rough, and you wouldn't want that to show anyway. If you buff or polish it enough that it looks like you want it to look, then you can't get any paint of any kind to adhere.
My brother has tried many times to do this "clear coat over bare steel" and without fail every single thing he has done this with (mostly bicycle parts) have rusted under the clear, and within months they chip and flake off and then begin peeling in sheets.
The whole idea behind paint on steel is you have to make it rough enough for paint or primer to stick, and then allow the paint to flow out and fill in the sanding scratches, build enough paint for you to buff out the surface when it's all cured. Paint won't stick to a shiny surface, bare metal or paint.
Those old café racer tanks you are talking about were aluminum, which #1 does not "rust" in a really visible way, #2 can be polished like paint and #3 you can paint clear on and it will stick if you want (unpolished). But since it won't rust, it doesn't much matter if moisture gets trapped or can make it through the clear, or if it chips or wears off, you can just re-sand and touch it up later.
Remember most of the internet dudes who post pictures of their motorcycle tanks with clear sprayed over bare steel are not posting that picture after a year's worth of use, rain, knees rubbing on the tank, fuel spills, rock chips, etc. They are posting like 5 minutes after they paint. In a month they are all peeling and rusted.
You might be able to get it powder coated while bare, if your powder coat guy is willing to aggressively clean the rust and not screw up your surface finish look. But in that case, have the PC outfit strip it for you too, they should do that for the cost of the PC job.
Anyway, my recommendation is if you really REALLY want that bare metal tank look, you need to paint it. And if you are doing that, you should stop putting chemicals on the original paint now and just prep it as usual, then paint with something like this:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/oer-k89355/overview/
(http://www.autopartsdb.net/assets/images/ProductImg/k/k89355_v2.jpg)
...or some other aluminum or steel look wheel paint. There are a ton of paint solutions out there for alloy wheels which mostly these days are painted or powder coated with a finish that looks like polished or bare metal but is paint, because paint is way more uniform and easier to maintain.
Or maybe try something like this:
http://www.liquidstainlesssteel.com/FAQ.html
I'm about to paint some stuff on my bike with this:
https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/specialty/appliance-epoxy-spray
I'll be the guinea pig and post pictures. It's just that it's 1/5 the price of the OER stuff otherwise I'd be doing the wheels in OER's simulated magnesium.
Most of those will give you the bare-metal look from 10ft away without nearly the hassle of trying to pull off real bare metal.
Maybe read something like this: http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=46688.0 Has some info on how to strip it, and of course the OP there deciding to not do the bare metal clear finish because everyone tells him the clear won't stick to bare metal (everyone's right, it won't). Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Glad you didn't succeed in removing that factory paint yet. It'll make an excellent base for you to paint something else on.
[BTW I recently did an update on the wiki "painting your tank" that you might read if you are going to paint]
I've never seen something surface rust in minutes.
Working as a machinist I deal with all manner of metals, and the only thing that rusts quickly is the residual chips clogged in the CNC machine which are exposed to evaporating water from the coolants we run. That machine needs constant cleaning or it turns into a rusty mess.
Same with running a drill press all day, keeping it wet with the coolant seems to be a catalyst for oxidation...
Everything else? Not really. We'll leave parts in machines overnight and they're still clean in the morning. Over the weekend you might see some speckles starting...
Then again, environment might have a lot to do with it.
I have media blasted a gas tank before. You should take steps to plug the holes, but clearing the inside of the tank of the media was as simple as being able to pressurize it. Seal up the fuel door with tape and attach an air nozzle to it, blast her real good, 90-some% of the media comes out.
Then I took it out in the lot and ran the hose to it, filled, shook, and dumped a few times then let it sit and flush with water for a few minutes.
Did I absolutely 100% get every spec of sand? Probably not. But it's no less debris than you pick up from the gas station every fill up...
But you are correct about painting a smooth surface. I don't think he wants to have a polished mirror, though, when I think brushed look there is a texture to it. Clear should stick to that.
You do raise a good point about rusting under the clear. I've never just cleared metal, I don't know how it behaves. Usually the primer in paint acts to inhibit rust, and if it doesn't it certainly makes it invisible...
Maybe sending it off to a PC and getting a metallic coating is the best route... But it won't be textured. And it'll be expensive.
Quote from: Watcher on October 31, 2016, 06:04:58 AM
I've never seen something surface rust in minutes.
...
Everything else? Not really. We'll leave parts in machines overnight and they're still clean in the morning. Over the weekend you might see some speckles starting...
Then again, environment might have a lot to do with it.
Coating it with a clear finish will reveal very quickly how much surface rust has been allowed. If you are painting a bare metal part (like a new car body part) you must thoroughly clean the rust off a few minutes before spraying it with the initial etching primer coat. If you wait until the next day you will trap rust that may be visible but it'll be a disaster down the line.
The other serious problem is that whatever moisture is in the air will get trapped under the clear if you spray it on, so even if the clear is perfectly sealed it may trap some moisture that may cause rust. Etching primer can help a lot here, but you can't very well spray it first if you want clear over bare steel.
Quote
I have media blasted a gas tank before. ...
Good to know. I was making a guess. Hard to know you have gotten everything out of a GS500F tank, and having worked with my empty tank for a few weeks now it turns out the shape of it makes it likely for water/dirt/you name it to build up in crevices inside the tank that are very hard to get clear.
QuoteI think brushed look there is a texture to it. Clear should stick to that.
Maybe. Depends on the paint. Most clear finishes are designed to be painted directly on a base coat of paint, not directly on bare metal. In fact, just about the only paint designed to be applied directly to bare steel is primer. You can only be reasonably sure the clear is going to stick if you are putting it over a compatible paint substrate. Get the timing or chemistry wrong and that might not even stick very well without scuffing. There's just a lot of problems with this, maybe you can work them out, but painting anything on bare steel is no picnic, and it's made much worse when trying to do it in a way that reveals the surface finish and utilizes a paint not designed for application directly to bare steel to begin with.
Quote
Maybe sending it off to a PC and getting a metallic coating is the best route... But it won't be textured. And it'll be expensive.
Agreed. And the results won't be much better if any than using a good metallic paint finish. For that matter, if you want texture you can always put on a metallic paint finish, put like 15 coats, then after it's super cured (weeks!) use a very clean brass wire brush (new) to put a texture on it and then spray clear over that. Probably gets close to the textured steel look without nearly the hassles of trying to put a finish on bare metal on a daily-driver motorcycle.
Wow. This thread blew up. That being said, I'm bout to go to bed, and PUI.
Getting a clear coat to stick to bare steel is NEAR impossible - it will stick, but don't be surprised when you see surface rust within a year or two. Bare steel can absolutely flash rust - it depends on what was used to get it bare and the conditions in the air (dry / cold air compared to wet / humind air / etc). But if Endo is a fast worker, then stripping the paint / washing / prep / coating should leave pretty good results. Permanent? Maybe, maybe not. I will say that I stripped a 36 year old Suzuki tank to bare steel, cleaned the surface, and used Duplicolor Metal cast and 2k clear with (so far) excellent results.
Endo: feel free to experiment. Worst comes to worst, you have winter to find out it needs redone.
Quote from: Big Rich on October 31, 2016, 07:15:37 AM
Suzuki tank to bare steel, cleaned the surface, and used Duplicolor Metal cast and 2k clear with (so far) excellent results.
What 2k clear? Curious. For clear, I've had best luck with Minwax polyurethane over a 600-grit sanded acrylic enamel. It cures super hard and buffs great, and way less likely to blush than acrylic enamel clears. But I'm always interested in something better, so tell me about your 2k clear :)
I don't know the formula of the metalcast paint but the "perfect match" paint from duplicolor is nitrocellulouse lacquer last time I checked and it's not at all durable, although it's easy to apply. Their nitro clear is really easy to apply but I literally had a guitar I sprayed this on that was still outgassing after TWO YEARS and you could dent the clear with your fingernail. I stripped it and refinished it and thew all duplicolor paint I had laying around in the trash.
If spraying from a rattle can I highly recommend either epoxy or an ACRYLIC enamel (not ordinary rustoleum which is aklyd enamel).
Quote
Endo: feel free to experiment. Worst comes to worst, you have winter to find out it needs redone.
Exactly. Although painting anything in the winter is no fun, unless your winter is in Texas like me!
Spraymax 2k Clear. Google it - it is awesome stuff for poor DIY'ers like myself.
Duplicolor Metalcast is (IMO) a pretty unique rattle can paint.... heat & chemical resistant, sticks without a primer, and readily available. I've used it for a couple of projects and have never been disappointed.
Well, you guys have a lot more experience than me, then. I've only ever done rattle cans on bare metal and proper 3 stage for automotive.
I had a feeling clear was an oddball, I vaguely remember a clear "lifting" some candy and making it bleed over a fine-line on my orange GS. It's more of a chemical bond as opposed to typical adhesion?
Oh, in regards to media blasting again I remember being more comfortable doing it because we used crushed walnut shells. If it was mineral media like silica I might have been more averse to it, but organic media seems like it wouldn't last long in the presence of gasoline.
Quote from: Watcher on October 31, 2016, 07:55:12 AM
I had a feeling clear was an oddball, I vaguely remember a clear "lifting" some candy and making it bleed over a fine-line on my orange GS. It's more of a chemical bond as opposed to typical adhesion?
Yes, well both.
Depends on the finish and the formulation of the clear. If the clear you are spraying contains a solvents that can dissolve the underlying finish then it will, maybe most ofen when spraying a nitrocellulose lacquer over an enamel.
I was about to say what I'd do if I had to make this work on a motorcycle tank but the truth is, I wouldn't. I would just not do it. Not worth the trouble. It takes too much work to get the tank sanded and prepped and dents out and all that to waste that time on a finish that I am not absolutely sure will adhere and last years in the elements. Maybe if it was a "show" motorcycle, one that is stored indoors and that I can always re-sand and re-spray whenever it needs to be perfect for a show, then it might be ok. But for a daily? No way.
Wow, you guys are a fount of wisdom and experience, as always! Now can I get you all to do my taxes?
Josh, you're totally raining on my parade! But I value your input, and see your points.
I called a local powder coating place, and they say they clear coat bare metal tanks all the time without problems. So we'll see how this turns out.
If nothing else, this will be a fun winter project.
BTW, that Aircraft Remover is an amazing product, so much more effective than the basic stripper sold by the same company.
Suzuki seems to have done a really nice job in prepping our tanks. There's a rock hard varnish on top. Then a solid coat of paint, with another layer of pink primer underneath. Took about 3 coats of Aircraft Remover to get past that. Now I'm left with a smooth grey coating, which I'm guessing is some sort of oxide / galvanizing over the bare steel.
Quote from: Endopotential on October 31, 2016, 10:53:43 AM
Josh, you're totally raining on my parade! But I value your input, and see your points.
Sorry about that. But it sounds like you had some good news from a powder coater. Good news also that you don't have a ton invested in that tank.
Quote
Suzuki seems to have done a really nice job in prepping our tanks. There's a rock hard varnish on top. Then a solid coat of paint, with another layer of pink primer underneath. Took about 3 coats of Aircraft Remover to get past that. Now I'm left with a smooth grey coating, which I'm guessing is some sort of oxide / galvanizing over the bare steel.
That's probably the iron phosphate surface layer resulting from using etching primer to paint the tank at the factory. You'll have to sand it off. It's not paint, it's almost more like a plating. The outer layer "skin" of the steel tank has been converted to iron phosphate.
All catalyzed urethane enamel finishes (or polyester, etc.) will require aircraft remover (or abrasives) to strip.
So here's the real scoop. The hardest thing in painting a motorcycle is getting something to adhere to bare metal. New paint will adhere well and easily to the old paint if you scuff it and prep properly. So once you stripped off the old finish, you are basically committed to solving the problem of getting some paint to stick.
Endo, if you do go with a clear powder coating, discuss how they want the tank prepped. Most places will want to do the finish prep themselves (so if the PC fails, they know it is their own fault). Even if you get all the paint stripped off and polished down to bare steel, it might be a good idea to hit the surface with a cheap primer - to avoid flash rusting and they will strip it off before powder anyway.
I suggest the tank is vaqua-blasted.
It will remove ALL traces of paint, even that trapped in seams and welds and the process will leave a satin like finish without scratching that will polish up...(with some work) prior to coating.
Example.........http://www.rfiscreening.co.uk/vaqua_blasting.html
If you wanted a shiny tank perhaps you could have it stripped and plated? No idea what the cost would be.
Looking forward to seeing how this all turns out as I'm thinking of going a similar direction.
Keep us updated endo!
Some after-work fun in the garage.
After the stripping adventure, a couple more hours of orbital sander, sandpaper and Dremel fun.
Now that all the coating is off, some more careful sanding to get the brushed look. I'll coat it lightly with WD40 in between work episodes, hoping to stave off rust before I can get it powder coated.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e124/Endopotential/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1452_zpsjz2ufxvg.jpg) (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/Endopotential/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1452_zpsjz2ufxvg.jpg.html)
Did you talk to the powder coated yet? The wd40 might be a seal breaker..... I know one guy that does PC that won't even have wd40 in his shop since it causes so many problems with powder.....
Some brake cleaner or something similar should sort out any issues with residual wd40/other oils no?
yeah brake cleaner or acetone or something would clean all the residual oils off of the tank. I would think the PC shop would clean it with some solvent like this prior to coating to make sure there wasn't something lurking to screw up adhesion.
I agree I wouldn't put WD-40 on it... or anything really. I know for whatever reason MC guys seem to be in love with WD-40 but I literally never use it on anything for any reason. Whatever it's good for, there's something else that's way better.
WD40 should be used as a CLEANER not a lubricant. It is an oil but it also has too many solvents and such in it. It eats rubber seals. No bueno.
WD40 on the tank to inhibit rust while its bare is fine, it also works good as a wet medium for sanding. I often sharpen knives with it. No issues there. Just be sure you really degrease it when it's ready for coating prep. And wear gloves. Your skin oils are not good for bare metal.
What blows my mind is people who suggest WD40 for vacuum leak tests. I'm not making my clean carbs and frame and electrics and everything else in there all greasy, no thanks! Carb cleaner/brake cleaner evaporates fast and doesn't hurt anything doing the same test.
Quote from: Watcher on November 03, 2016, 07:37:06 PM
WD40 should be used as a CLEANER not a lubricant. It is an oil but it also has too many solvents and such in it. It eats rubber seals. No bueno.
WD40 on the tank to inhibit rust while its bare is fine, it also works good as a wet medium for sanding. I often sharpen knives with it. No issues there. Just be sure you really degrease it when it's ready for coating prep. And wear gloves. Your skin oils are not good for bare metal.
What blows my mind is people who suggest WD40 for vacuum leak tests. I'm not making my clean carbs and frame and electrics and everything else in there all greasy, no thanks! Carb cleaner/brake cleaner evaporates fast and doesn't hurt anything doing the same test.
Dont carb and brake cleaners eat away rubber, the same way WD40 does?
At least some carburetor cleaners will destroy rubber on contact. I can imagine brake cleaner is not much better but I haven't had the same experience with Brakleen. I would think WD-40 is probably far less harmful to rubber parts than ordinary carb cleaner.
I don't recommend spraying anything on a carbureted motorcycle to try and find vacuum leaks. But everyone continues to recommend it. One of these days someone will notice that intake boots rubber parts are coming detached from the plate and carb diaphragms look melted and connect the dots. Or, well, probably not.
Just read the MSDS sheet for the product you choose. THAT will tell you IF its harmful to plastics, paint and synthetic rubbers :dunno_black:
Manufactures instructions/recommendations......beating internet hearsay for years :thumb:
And if you want to use a spray to check for vacuum leaks try good old water, the revs will drop instead of rise but I am sure most of us can cope with this :thumb:
Hey guys, quit derailing my thread! Go start your own anti-WD40 interest group!
Just kidding, I'm always glad to learn more about everything tinkering related.
My PC guy did tell me to stay away from WD40 or any coating. Just wanted a clean bare metal tank as fresh from sanding as possible.
Well finally got all the paint off, and trying to figure out what kind of finish I can get out of it.
It actually polishes to a mirror finish pretty easily. Not sure if I want it that shiny though.
Trying to decide what brushed finish I want or can accomplish. Maybe overlapping swirls with a rotary tool as below? Or just long linear brushes with sandpaper?
Any advice from anyone who's worked on brushed finishes before?
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e124/Endopotential/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1459_zpsbknibmrt.jpg) (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/Endopotential/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1459_zpsbknibmrt.jpg.html)
When I stripped the GS850 tank down to bare steel for my GR650, I had the same thought (swirls or straight lines). I ended up going with the straight lines (front to back) only because there were no "machining flaws" from using power equipment, and it allowed a more natural finished look to the steel.
To be fair though, I didn't use powder coating as the top layer. I went with no primer, Duplicolor Metalcast red paint, and Spraymax 2k Clear on top. So the steel has almost a red wood grain look to it.
Just my 2 cents but the swirls look a little hectic. While cool the straight front to back might give it a more deliberate finished look
I vote against the swirls too.
Cool thread and awesome work!!
Where there's a will (and lots of sandpaper), there's a way...
I ended up doing a brushed finish with 150 grit on the scallops on top of the tank, and along the flat section on the sides.
The rest of the tank I polished as shiny as I could. The swirls were fun, but too hard to keep consistent.
Then a clear gloss powder coat that still reveals all the hard work below. Hard to capture on film.
Thinking about some black racing stripes down the middle. Hmm.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e124/Endopotential/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1473_zpslagdvosm.jpg) (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/Endopotential/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1473_zpslagdvosm.jpg.html)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e124/Endopotential/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1472_zpsrfljif1h.jpg) (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/Endopotential/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1472_zpsrfljif1h.jpg.html)
Nice!! Really shows off the shape of the later tanks :cool:
That looks bad ass!!! Use plastidip to put on some black racing stripes, it will allow you to take it off if you don't like it or have painted permanently if you do.
Another job well done Endo! :thumb:
Used some vinyl tape instead for the racing stripes. Maybe will paint it down the line.
Et voila, the finished product! Some more pictures on the build thread, http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=70953.0
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e124/Endopotential/IMG_1494_zpski3rzgzn.jpg) (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/Endopotential/media/IMG_1494_zpski3rzgzn.jpg.html)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e124/Endopotential/IMG_1493_zps6wbxqlkt.jpg) (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/Endopotential/media/IMG_1493_zps6wbxqlkt.jpg.html)
Looks awesome :thumb:
How did you end up sealing it?
I read in his project thread that he got it powdercoated clear! How neat is that !! :o
Looks awesome! Glad to see it turned out well.
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