Yesterday in my revzilla "Common Tread" email there was this article/video. Dunno why it was just yesterday because it is dated April of '16 but oh well. Even though this video is said to have gone viral at the time, I saw it for the first time yesterday.
https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/viral-video-could-this-crash-have-been-avoided
It was a really interesting read for me and it made me really take a step back and remember exactly how careful we all have to be when riding.
Would like to hear people's inputs on this so if you are reading this and have some spare time, check out the link and reply with your thoughts.
Edit: And oh yeah, here's the full version of the 2nd view where the chick clearly did not help the situation at all :technical:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q6mRPP1_58
I think any accident/crash is avoidable, but here's what I think in this scenario.
The rider who hit the dog should have cued in on the rider who was wearing the camera in the first video, since he slowed way down. By the time the rider hits the dog he is almost along side the cameraman. When I'm riding in a group I don't let myself get that close to other riders, and if the rider in front of me is on the brakes so am I and I'm searching like crazy for the cause.
However, I will concede to the fact the cameraman is blocking the view of the rider who hits the dog.
The second rider, on the supermoto, is inexcusable. For one he was coming in way fast. Probably to do a fly-by on the whole group. Two, he grabbed a whole handful of that front brake.
It's nothing short of a miracle he wasn't struck by the oncoming semi-truck, but he is 100% the reason why he ended up in that position.
As for the girl who hits the crashed rider and actually gets his undies tangled in her chain, classic case of "target fixation". I'm guessing she's relatively inexperienced, IMHO she had no business being in a group that large.
She has her hand placed on the left hand-grip all casual like she knows what she's doing, but she has a delayed reaction to the rider in front of her who she very nearly rear-ends, and actually hitting the downed rider stops her more readily than her actuation of the brakes. I would bring up the fact that she is not in proper staggered formation, but it looks like in the beginning of the video the riders in front change position and it does seem like her shoulder check might be to see if she can cross over.
I remember posting this to my MSF group on FaceBook, with a big long synopsis, if I can dig that up I'll share it here.
So, my TL:DR of "was this avoidable".
Rider who hits the dog. Potentially.
Supermoto. Yes.
Girl. Yes.
Quote from: Watcher on February 07, 2017, 08:08:33 PM
When I'm riding in a group I don't let myself get that close to other riders, and if the rider in front of me is on the brakes so am I and I'm searching like crazy for the cause.
I couldn't agree more. In fact, I'm exactly that way while riding by myself or with someone else (I've never actually gotten to ride in a group :icon_sad: ) I'm
always watching for things that could go wrong and if I see brakes or something out of the ordinary, I am slowing down.
I played it over and over trying to see what exactly went wrong with the 2nd rider... I was like why was he coming up that fast? I mean I know it's easy to not realize how fast you come up on slower moving and/or stationary objects until you're right up on them... after all, when the first rider hit the dog he slowed down significantly and the 2nd rider was still (probably) going a consistent speed until he did grab the brake hard. Still stunned he walked away... grabbed his bike, etc. Amazing for sure.
Target fixation. Yes yes that's gotta be what happened. I had been wondering why she did that shoulder check... couldn't have happened at a worse time! As I was watching that second vid, I felt my body kinda like... tense up because she was doing the opposite of what I would have done lol. I'm glad you noticed her clutch hand just chillin' on the bar like that too... very relaxed and yeah ok I'm guilty of the same thing from time to time but it's never been in a situation like this.
I take my hand completely off the grip if I'm comfortable, like cruising along at 80mph on I10 with little traffic, or if I'm around town with the streets all to myself. But if my hands are on the grips they're positioned to react/control.
Like that she could inadvertently influence the bars in a direction she did not intend, or you could go to snatch that clutch in and grab air, or worse pull it in and lose it which would definitely make the bike buck beneath you.
I'm using the wrong vocabulary here but a "relaxed" rider is a dangerous rider. If you are complacent or otherwise not committed to what's going on around you you're just a danger to yourself and others.
Case and point.
I might bring up too that I never place beginners in the middle of the group.
It seems counter intuitive, but they do better in the front. You want maybe one experienced rider to lead the group, but someone who is responsible enough to keep their head in their mirrors and see how the riders behind them are doing. This way, the whole group moves at a pace the beginners are riding at, and watching one or maybe two experienced riders ahead can give them a good sense of proper technique without overloading their palate, so to speak.
In the back of the group is preferable in some ways. If they are uncomfortable with the speed they can hang back and not feel pressured from riders behind, and if they have any issues them pulling off the road isn't going to cause the whole group to panic. Once again, an experienced tail rider would be good to "sweep" the group up.
But in the middle? Not only is it sensory overload from everything happening in front of them, but there's pressure to keep up because of the riders behind them. All too often this leads to panic, riding outside comfort zones, and the situation we have on video.
Agreed. We had always placed newbies (we all were at one time) behind lead rider. They would set pace to their own abilities. And lead would pick up on this.
Aaron
http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/09/16/become-a-better-street-rider-with-the-pace-motorcycle-safety-and-riding-skills (http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/09/16/become-a-better-street-rider-with-the-pace-motorcycle-safety-and-riding-skills)
This is a great article about riding in groups for those of you who haven't seen it. I consider myself lucky to have a couple of friends that are very experienced, and very responsible riders that practice many of these techniques. I've learned a lot by riding with them...they ride slowly enough that I can keep up, but quickly enough for me to push my limits a little bit in order to continuously improve my riding skills. And they're always looking out for me, since they know I'm not nearly as experienced. It's easy to throw a foot out to warn your buddies of an approaching hazard, but that also only works if the following riders are receptive to the signal.
As far as I'm concerned, this was totally avoidable. Even though the dog might not have been visible by the guy that hit it, he should've heeded the signals provided by lead rider. It's easy to sit here in my office chair and say that I would've done something differently, but they're called "accidents" for a reason.
Quote from: rscottlow on February 14, 2017, 11:18:44 AM
they're called "accidents" for a reason.
I hate the word accident, it implies that nobody was at fault, or that it was something that was inevitable or completely unforseeable.
An accident is a misspelled word, or a meteorite flying from the sky and striking a rider, or slipping and falling on ice trying to get to the car.
Wildlife running out on a country road? Yeah, that's totally unforseeable.
I've followed along with the state and started calling them "crashes" plain and simple.
Quote from: Watcher on February 14, 2017, 11:33:09 AM
Quote from: rscottlow on February 14, 2017, 11:18:44 AM
they're called "accidents" for a reason.
I hate the word accident, it implies that nobody was at fault, or that it was something that was inevitable or completely unforseeable.
An accident is a misspelled word, or a meteorite flying from the sky and striking a rider, or slipping and falling on ice trying to get to the car.
Wildlife running out on a country road? Yeah, that's totally unforseeable.
I've followed along with the state and started calling them "crashes" plain and simple.
Just because it's an accident doesn't mean that someone wasn't at fault. I accidentally dropped my bike in my driveway a couple of months after I started riding. I sure as hell didn't do it on purpose, so I say it was an accident. There's no denying that it was my fault, though.
Negligence also plays a part in accidents (or crashes, if you like ;)). Someone paying less attention than they should, not knowing what they should be doing, or not skilled enough to be able to do what they should be doing. I'd say that all of the above were factors in the video.
Slipping on some gravel or something while straddle walking in the driveway and dropping the bike, accident.
While you could say it was your fault since you were operating the vehicle, it could have happened to anyone in the same situation. I wouldn't blame the rider specifically, it was an accident.
Pulling up to a gravelly intersection, having the front tire lock up, and dropping the bike, crash. Negligence. Riders fault.
Cager changing lanes into me: evil (cager was on cellie illegally....while in the carpool lane.... illegally). No turn signal, not even drifting in its lane (I'm purposefully not naming the gender of the driver, because it's irrelevant. BUT...I was sharing lanes, so one can argue that I should have been able to TELL through clairvoyance that this cager was going to knock me over. Or one can argue that there were more "tells" for me to read. I'll have to go back and read my own account of it to see what I thought at the time....other than that the cager was evil.
Missing a turn at the track and hitting the gravel....hard: all on me.
Hitting gravel pulling over to the side of the road: all on me.
All of the above are accidents.
Now to go back and see if my little laptop will deign to play the vids for me. :technical:
Quote from: Watcher on February 14, 2017, 08:44:36 PM
Slipping on some gravel or something while straddle walking in the driveway and dropping the bike, accident.
Yeah, I squeezed my front brake while turning into my gravel driveway. Rookie mistake. But totally an accident. I learned from it though, so that's cool. My little brother went down at speed (roughly 40 MPH) on a 4-lane divided straight road. He still has very little idea what happened. Unless something malfunctioned, that was also his fault, and I'd still call it an accident. Not that the term "crash" is incorrect...I see where you're coming from, but I don't think the term "accident" absolves anyone from fault.
TL;DR: People riding in a group crash into each other because one of them hit a dog. Avoidable? That would depend on your definition of "avoidable"; had it been raining that day, they might not have been riding. Had the dog waited an extra 30 seconds to run across the road, nothing would have happened. What everyone must accept is, sooner or later, you're gonna end up on the ground if you ride long enough.
Quote from: Kijona on February 27, 2017, 10:15:32 AM
What everyone must accept is, sooner or later, you're gonna end up on the ground if you ride long enough.
I hate that logic. Hate is a strong word, and I truly do hate when people say that.
Accepting the fact that a crash is inevitable is setting yourself up for failure.
I've been on the ground. Twice. It took years to happen, but it did happen. Could they have been avoided? Most definitely.
If I had been doing everything right and paying as much attention as I should have been I would not have ended up on the ground.
But I still never say it was an inevitable circumstance.
Quote from: Watcher on February 27, 2017, 01:03:10 PM
I hate that logic. Hate is a strong word, and I truly do hate when people say that.
Accepting the fact that a crash is inevitable is setting yourself up for failure.
I've been on the ground. Twice. It took years to happen, but it did happen. Could they have been avoided? Most definitely.
If I had been doing everything right and paying as much attention as I should have been I would not have ended up on the ground.
But I still never say it was an inevitable circumstance.
I get what you're saying, but nobody is perfectly vigilant. I'm sure there are a few riders who make it their whole riding career with no crashes, but what do you think the likelihood is for any given rider to experience a crash over, say, a 10 year riding career? The attitude that "everyone crashes eventually" is really just saying that you should just be aware that almost every rider hits the ground at some point and to be prepared for that. Its not "setting yourself up for failure" or even trying to push blame off the rider in the event of a crash, it is simply an assertion that its extremely likely that over a long enough period of time you will hit the pavement. Now, I'm not an ATGATT nazi, every rider assesses risk differently. However, I do believe that everyone should go into that assessment with an awareness that is incredibly unlikely that you will never crash. Yes, its possible that you can, through a combination of skill and luck, get through your whole life without crashing but are you willing to bet your life it?
As for the idea that there are no true "accidents": I would say that the vast majority of crashes could be avoided if the riders were more vigilant (or not speeding, or not drinking, etc, etc.), but you can do everything right and still crash. You don't have control over other drivers, you don't have control of animals jumping out into the road, you only have control over your reaction to those events. And sometimes, human reaction time is simply not sufficient to avoid a crash. The only real way to never crash is to never ride, and that's no fun at all.
Being prepared for the risks and expecting to fail are two completely different things.
I can be more or less considered an ATGATT Nazi, but it's not because I've accepted that I might end up on the pavement again... It's because I understand that it's a possibility, and I know what will happen if I'm not prepared.
Taking your 10 year example, I've been driving for over 10 years and have never been in a collision. I've gotten a jeep stuck in a mudhole, but THAT was more or less an inevitability for the activity I was doing.
To me, truly thinking "It was bound to happen eventually" goes hand in hand with either consciously or subconsciously letting your guard down. I prefer to remain vigilant.
I guess it's open to whether you interpret that sentence as a statistic or as a mantra. As a statistic there may be some truth to it, by nature motorcycles are more vulnerable than automobiles. As a mantra I think it indicates a less than ideal emotional commitment to the ride.
Quote from: Watcher on February 27, 2017, 03:38:41 PM
...
I guess it's open to whether you interpret that sentence as a statistic or as a mantra. As a statistic there may be some truth to it, by nature motorcycles are more vulnerable than automobiles. As a mantra I think it indicates a less than ideal emotional commitment to the ride.
That's kind of what I'm getting at. I think most of the time people who say it are stating it as a statistic, normally to encourage people to wear gear.
Quote from: Watcher on February 27, 2017, 03:38:41 PM
I can be more or less considered an ATGATT Nazi, but it's not because I've accepted that I might end up on the pavement again... It's because I understand that it's a possibility, and I know what will happen if I'm not prepared.
...
From your attitude on here, you don't really seem like a gear nazi... What I mean by "nazi" is someone who wears ATGATT, and harshly judges those who do not. Personally, I always wear my helmet, jacket, and gloves when riding for essentially the same reasons. But, if someone else chooses not to, that's their decision and I don't feel right telling them how to live their lives and I won't think less of them for it. An ATGATT Nazi would refuse to ride with anyone not in full gear, and spouts harsh criticism any time someone mentions riding without a helmet or something.
Quote from: qcbaker on February 28, 2017, 06:43:48 AM
From your attitude on here, you don't really seem like a gear nazi... What I mean by "nazi" is someone who wears ATGATT, and harshly judges those who do not. Personally, I always wear my helmet, jacket, and gloves when riding for essentially the same reasons. But, if someone else chooses not to, that's their decision and I don't feel right telling them how to live their lives and I won't think less of them for it. An ATGATT Nazi would refuse to ride with anyone not in full gear, and spouts harsh criticism any time someone mentions riding without a helmet or something.
I will try and talk people out of being squids. It's part of my job, really. I wouldn't be a good MSF instructor if I didn't push for ATGATT.
I think helmet laws should exist. I think 99.99% of all anti-helmet reasons are easily debunked, or just straight up stupid, and will voice my opinion of such with no restraint. I have pulled up next to a squid with a helmet hooked to the lock of his bike, but not on his head, and chewed him out for it... in traffic! And I knew for a fact it wasn't his GF's helmet, because she was half-squiding on a Ninja behind him! I'm like "Dude, helmets save lives!" He says "Yeah, that's why I have one." And points to it. "It doesn't work unless you wear it, dude. Why even have it if you aren't going to wear it?" GF has rolled up at this point, "I told you to put it on!" He's getting all embarrassed. Light turns green, I say "Don't be a f%$king statistic!" and ride away.
That being said, I typically don't "harshly judge" anyone. It's not in my character to look down on anyone, and at the end of the day being an American is all about the freedom of the individual.
I'll fight tooth and nail against anyone who says "A helmet is more likely to kill you," or you can "cook your brain and be dead before you even crash," or "I feel blind when I wear a helmet."
But as soon as someone says "I don't wear a helmet because I don't want to," I'll back off.
I'll debate every reason why someone won't wear gear, and I'll push as hard as I can for them to wear it. But I won't infringe on your right to choose.
So I guess I'm not a "gear Nazi". But I'm pretty damn close.
Quote from: Watcher on February 28, 2017, 11:26:43 AM
I will try and talk people out of being squids. It's part of my job, really. I wouldn't be a good MSF instructor if I didn't push for ATGATT.
Keep that up for sure. The less squids out there, the better the reputation of all bikers gets. :thumb:
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I think helmet laws should exist. I think 99.99% of all anti-helmet reasons are easily debunked, or just straight up stupid, and will voice my opinion of such with no restraint.
While I agree that there's really no good reason not to wear a helmet, I actually oppose helmet laws on principle. Unless someone can prove that the act of not wearing a helmet actively endangers other people on the road, I don't think the law should force people to protect themselves if they don't want to.
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I have pulled up next to a squid with a helmet hooked to the lock of his bike, but not on his head, and chewed him out for it... in traffic! And I knew for a fact it wasn't his GF's helmet, because she was half-squiding on a Ninja behind him! I'm like "Dude, helmets save lives!" He says "Yeah, that's why I have one." And points to it. "It doesn't work unless you wear it, dude. Why even have it if you aren't going to wear it?" GF has rolled up at this point, "I told you to put it on!" He's getting all embarrassed. Light turns green, I say "Don't be a f%$king statistic!" and ride away.
Yeah, I'd consider that "gear nazi" behavior lol.
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That being said, I typically don't "harshly judge" anyone.
You don't think berating someone for not wearing their helmet while in traffic is "harshly judging"? I'm kidding, but honestly, I can't say I agree with your methods there, but I completely agree with the sentiment.
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It's not in my character to look down on anyone, and at the end of the day being an American is all about the freedom of the individual.
I'll fight tooth and nail against anyone who says "A helmet is more likely to kill you," or you can "cook your brain and be dead before you even crash," or "I feel blind when I wear a helmet."
But as soon as someone says "I don't wear a helmet because I don't want to," I'll back off.
I'll debate every reason why someone won't wear gear, and I'll push as hard as I can for them to wear it. But I won't infringe on your right to choose.
I feel the same way.
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So I guess I'm not a "gear Nazi". But I'm pretty damn close.
I've seen worse lol.
Quote from: qcbaker on February 28, 2017, 11:59:53 AM
Quote from: Watcher on February 28, 2017, 11:26:43 AM
That being said, I typically don't "harshly judge" anyone.
You don't think berating someone for not wearing their helmet while in traffic is "harshly judging"? I'm kidding, but honestly, I can't say I agree with your methods there, but I completely agree with the sentiment.
Well, me saying "You're not wearing your helmet. What are you, some kind of @$$hole?" would be really judgemental. I may have acted a bit of an ass towards him but I wasn't a judgemental ass, lol.
Fine line, I know...
But that was also years ago, and now I'm a little more relaxed about everything. Not sure if I'd do the same thing today. I'm always tempted to, but I think better of it. On the road in traffic is neither the time nor the place.
I've been down twice. Once when I first started riding on the street, and once again much later. The first time was user error; I freaked out because a car was approaching me from behind very quickly and I panicked. I dumped the clutch and flipped the bike (a KLR650) over backwards. The left side of the handlebar came down on my hip...I still occasionally wake up with pain. Was that avoidable? Absolutely.
The second time was when I hit an oil slick on an on-ramp. It was early in the morning and the pavement was damp. The on-ramp was a full 180° turn and half-way through, someone's car/truck/whatever it was, dumped a ton of oil out onto the road, covering 90% of the lane. It was impossible to see because 1) it was beyond my line of sight and 2) the pavement was dark due to moisture. I low-sided and cracked several of my ribs. The crash itself was relatively minor but I was pretty seriously injured. I was barely above 30MPH. Was this avoidable? I don't see how.
When I went for my first Stay Upright course in 1983 which was run by two ex police trainers and has since morphed into a huge company with govt contracts. We were taught how to hold the brakes for maximum emergency braking. They told us of a story where BMW invited champion riders to test their new abs, all the riders thought an experienced racer could outbreak abs. When they thought they were holding the bike at maximum braking it turns out that they weren't.
Then we had the 'lock the front wheel and you're down' myth debunked right before our eyes. We were on a racetrack and one of the trainers I think it was Warick Schuberg, came haring down the track at least 60 kph probably faster and locked the front wheel, the bike stayed in a straight line with smoke billowing from the front tyre. He stopped in a straight line. He just wanted to prove the point that you don't always go down if you lock the front tyre.
Now that that fear was out of the way, they pointed out that the only way to be able to tell when you are right at the point when the front wheel will break away, is to actually lock it. What we were instructed to learn and then to practice was actually locking the front wheel and releasing it the instant we could feel it lock. Then not being afraid of locking it, we could then learn exactly what it felt like just before it locks.
Then we were taught to get used to being able to grab a handful and squeeze quickly without the reflex grab and lock. What stops people learning this is the fear of locking. I practice this all the time and it did save my life once when an extra long semi trailer suddenly turned in front of me.
Even to this day I still practice this emergency braking. It's easy to say this but it's not easy to do, all you can do is practice. I say all this because the second rider locked his wheel which is why he came down. It seemed that he should have had enough time not to do this. I do not that even if the second rider missed the dog he was already on the way down and possibly sliding into the truck, hitting the dog did not bring him down.
Then there is the counter steering practice. I try to do this when I'm riding on a clear road I try to suddenly pick an obstacle and counter steer around it. But really you need another person helping you on this. I still do not feel that I'm fully practiced.
So the question asked at the beginning was 'could this have been avoided'. Well if you do not have your emergency braking and emergency counter steering down pat, you do not give yourself the best chance. I still surprise myself how easily I overdo the back brake sometimes. I do not feel that I practice emergency stopping enough.
Having said all that, one second gap is not sufficient. Probably all it would take to avoid the dog is a bit of a slowdown, the dog is not trying to be hit. This probably was avoidable. But that easy for me to say sitting here.
Go out with a friend on a quiet road and see how quickly you can brake when he gives the signal. Measure it. But even on your own, see if you can lock your front wheel be squeezing it fast and firmly but not grabbing at it, what you want to practice is backing off the instant you feel it lock.
From the video commentary... "and while he himself has suggested that he had no choice but to crash the bike" We all want to say this when it happens but there's no point in bullshitting yourself, the wheel locked and turned. There was no choice involved here. He did not 'lay the bike down', he locked the wheel and it turned. It was a classic panicked response. I may have done the same, but don't pretend it was deliberate. If the wheel locks then you cannot be braking at the maximum possible. You should never smoke the front wheel because you should be able to back off a bit the moment you've locked it. This takes lots and lots and lots of practice.
If you're in a lonely country road and you hit a patch of gravel and you go down, what is the first thing you do. No not pick up the bike, the first thing you do is to look around to see if anyone saw.