Small story: Last Thursday night, it was supposed to snow a couple inches in my area. Normally, I park my bike alongside my car in a small parking area on the side of my apartment building. But, because of the snow, I asked permission from my landlord to park my bike on the concrete porch/patio thing in front of the building, since it has an awning and I didn't want my bike to get covered in snow or hit by a plow. They said that was fine, and I told them I'd move it when the snow melted a bit. So, I left it there over the weekend because there was a pile of snow where I normally park my bike. Today, most of the snow seemed to have melted and I wanted to ride my bike back to work after my lunch break. When I got home on my break, I uncovered my bike and stashed my cover in my car. Then, I started the bike up to let it warm up a little while I put my gear on. As I'm putting on my gloves and stuff, the tenant of the apartment my bike is parked in front of comes out and complains about it being there. I shut the bike off to talk to him and I told him I was literally moving it right now. He called me inconsiderate and said that I should've asked permission to park it there, since its in front of his apartment window. I told him I asked the people who own the building and they said it was fine, and that it was there all weekend and I hadn't heard about anyone complaining. He didn't seem to care and said "you still could've just asked me if it was okay." I told him I didn't need to ask him, since everyone is allowed to use the porch and repeated that I had gotten explicit permission from the landlords to park the bike there. He said "how would you feel if I parked a motorcycle right outside your window?" and I told him "Honestly, if you weren't revving it right outside my window constantly I wouldn't mind at all. Anyway, I am literally moving the bike right now, so I don't even know what you're complaining about." And he walked away grumbling about it.
Now admittedly, the main reason I planned on starting it up and letting idle there for a second was because it was the middle of the day and I assumed no one was home and even if they were, I was only going to be there for a minute. So, I probably could've been more considerate and rolled the bike away from his window before starting it up if the momentary noise is that big of an issue. I get being a little annoyed at having a motorcycle running right outside your window, so whatever. But it was just idling while I was putting my gear on, it wasn't like I was revving it up over and over. Its a stock exhaust, it isn't a loud bike by any means. And, it was only running there for like 30 seconds before he came out so its not like it was there for an annoyingly long amount of time... AND, its not like the bike was blocking his "view" before I moved it since A. his blinds are always shut, and B. the bike isn't really tall enough to obstruct the window anyway. (And if you ask me, my bike is prettier than the brown grass and leafless tree out there anyway lol)
So, the question I ask to you guys is: was I wrong for parking it there without asking him specifically?
There are a couple of things I see going on here looking from the outside "into" your situation.
1. We all have--right or wrong--the desire to feel that we "own" our own little places we live. This often extends to outside our windows, as with your neighbor;
2. Your neighbor felt wronged, and you felt attacked, both of which don't usually lead to quality communication; and,
3. You now have what could be described as a new problem neighbor to deal with.
We don't have any control over how other people deal with their ownership over spaces we don't feel they should have ownership over, but we *do* have ownership over de-escalating problems.
I think the question now isn't whether or not you had a "right" to park your bike there (clearly you did), but what can you do now to smooth relations with your neighbor over.
If it were me, I'd write the neighbor a note letting him know that you think the two of you got off on the wrong foot. Explain again that you had the owner's permission, explain what you did here--that you didn't realize it would bother anyone since you had that permission--and let the owner know that you don't want to go forward with this as a problem.
The endgame is that you want to be able to park your bike where it will be protected from the weather and not have to worry about the neighbor doing anything.
One idea would be to tell the neighbor you'll leave him a note in future if you've gotten the owner's permission again and need to park the bike there. The neighbor wants to have some ownership over the area outside his window, and you want to occasionally use that area. You're not asking the neighbor's permission, but you ARE giving him a little satisfaction about having a small amount of control over his little world. He sounds like he could be a problem (walking away grumbling is not how we want problem people to be when it's our bikes that will take the heat). Leave your first name and cell number in case your neighbor wants to talk/hug it out. ;-)
I've lived around some problematic neighbors, and the REAL problem neighbors will never be satisfied, but I've found it helps to at least try and it's come to good things where I've tried and had success (when everyone's annoyance and grumbling has died down).
If this doesn't help, is there another place to park the bike....where you could knock on the door or leave a note letting the tenant know (when you park the bike), that you've gotten the owner's permission and wanted to let them know that you'd move the bike from in front of their window as soon as you can after the storm has passed, and then you could leave them your first name and cell number to let them know you're sincere)? ;-)
Love,
pandy
Next time park it in front of his apartment door? :flipoff:
Ha! I'm totally kidding...don't do that. My wife and I lived in a multi-family building for a few years before we bought our house, and we were lucky to have neighbors that, for the most part, kept to themselves. I think pandy has the right idea about trying to smooth things over with your neighbor. The last thing you need is someone vandalizing your bike because of some pointless miscommunication. Give him the satisfaction of thinking that he won, and you should be fine moving forward.
Quote from: rscottlow on February 14, 2017, 12:59:28 PM
Give him the satisfaction of thinking that he won, and you should be fine moving forward.
LOL! Why didn't *I* think of the idea of parking the bike right in front of their door....I LIKE that as a fellow-rider statement! LOL :flipoff: (http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u360/gstwin/afro3.gif)
In regards to the above quote, this is often how we make friends in the world instead of foes! He thinks he's wons a small victory (while you haven't said you'd ASK him). If he doesn't play ball after you've tossed him this softball, then he's an ass anyway, right? :icon_mrgreen:
I don't think you were wrong. You went about asking the owners and all was well. If it were me, I would've asked him if it would've been ok to park it there, had I asked. If he said 'sure' then I'd thank him for being cool with letting me park there (from now on). If he said 'no,' I would've stuck to my guns that the owners of the building are ok with it, but that I'd only park there when it was balls deep snow and stop acting like a baby.
At least he didn't go removing your valve stems...
It's an apartment building, it has a "public" area, you had permission. That's not his space, you don't need his permission.
But I get that in a community environment you need some form of cooperation. Downstairs neighbor might be like "I got a bad headache and can hear your subwoofer through the floor, do you mind?". "No problem, man, feel better."
There's also a distinction between being a total jerk because I'm right and you're wrong and being polite while dissenting.
If someone came out to me at 2pm like "Your motorcycle is too loud" I won't be like "f%$k you, take it up with the building manager." At the same time it's 2pm, I park towards the street to try and deal with the noise as considerately as possible, I need to warm the bike up a minute before I leave.
So I'd say "Hey man, I know my bike is loud, but I don't go revving it up for no reason, and besides it's the middle of the day. People are cutting grass, there's traffic, I'm not the only one making noise here. This is a public place, you have to understand."
Making enemies is never a good thing. Especially when motorcycles are so easily damaged by being kicked over and such.
I think if this guy had come out and said "Hey, can you please not run the bike right by my window, its kind of loud" I wouldn't have had any real problem with it. I would've just said "sure, sorry about that, I didn't realize you were home" and moved the bike. What made me angry was his insistence that I should've asked his permission to put the bike there in the first place. Maybe I was a little less polite about it than I could have been, sure I can admit that. But people acting like they own something that isn't really theirs really rubs me the wrong way. It's one of the things that I just simply cannot stand in a person. I've had neighbors act that way in the past, and I'm not really the type of person to just placate someone to avoid a conflict. As far as I'm concerned, I don't have any real desire to "smooth it over" with this guy, since I didn't do anything wrong.
That said, I'm not looking to start a conflict for no reason. If we get another snowstorm, I don't want to make the guy feel like I'm putting the bike there just to spite him. Maybe I'll take Pandy's advice next time, and leave a note on the guy's door simply telling him I'll be leaving the bike there for a few days because I don't want it to be buried or knocked over by the plow truck. That way, he can understand why the bike is there and just suck up the minor inconvenience with the knowledge that its temporary and that I am not doing it just to annoy him.
Quote from: Watcher on February 14, 2017, 09:13:13 PM
At least he didn't go removing your valve stems...
Did you ever figure out that whole situation?
No, not really.
Ever since I cranked the caps down and struck a paint line on the stem I haven't had any more instances of "tampering". Either whoever was doing it thought better of it or figured it wasn't worth the trouble, or it really was just a loose Shrader that was being temperamental. I've never had or even heard of a Shrader coming loose, though, so it's a new one for me and I consider it still a bit of a mystery.
Or maybe whoever was doing it saw the big iron on my hip and got a little intimidated.
I carry a full size pistol when I ride because it's easier to handle with gloves on, and my jacket usually covers it up. But I'm not fixing a tire with my jacket on, not in this heat...
If you want to be friends with him you can coddle him and try to make him feel better about it by trying to "talk it out". He will likely not want to hear any of it.
Or,
If you don't care to be buddy-buddy with him you need to put him in his place by immediately going bat shlit crazy as soon as he opens his mouth. Scare the crap our of him so he fears you (just don't touch him). This is my first choice in dealing with pinheads. Stop them in their tracks before it starts. Some people can't be reasoned with. If you let him control you he will. Being a renter gives him no domain over you, the window, or the view outside.
It's kind of like the kids sitting behind you and talking in a theater. You can shush them and get laughed at. Or, you can turn and look them right in the eyes and say SHUT THE F*** UP >:(!
It doesn't get any better once you own a property and have neighbors either. You'll still find a way to get on each others nerves. My next move will be to a house with no neighbors within shouting distance.
Disclaimer: This opinions does not reflect the opinion of the owner/operator of this site and is intended as satirical alternative for dealing with people who think the can walk on water. Injuries or damages caused by using "bat shlit crazy mode" are the sole responsibility of the user.
Lol, thanks for the laugh pliskin. The Rick Flair GIF you have as your avatar makes the whole post way more funny.
Quote from: Watcher on February 15, 2017, 07:44:13 AM
No, not really.
Ever since I cranked the caps down and struck a paint line on the stem I haven't had any more instances of "tampering". Either whoever was doing it thought better of it or figured it wasn't worth the trouble, or it really was just a loose Shrader that was being temperamental. I've never had or even heard of a Shrader coming loose, though, so it's a new one for me and I consider it still a bit of a mystery.
Or maybe whoever was doing it saw the big iron on my hip and got a little intimidated.
I carry a full size pistol when I ride because it's easier to handle with gloves on, and my jacket usually covers it up. But I'm not fixing a tire with my jacket on, not in this heat...
Who knows. As long as it doesn't happen again, maybe just brush it off? :dunno_black:
I kinda wish all of the U.S.ofA. was an open-carry country. I think that if we all just were ABLE to show phat pistols on our hips, there would be a lot less problems (yes, I realize that this is likely a bit controversial, especially in our peace-loving ally countries where even the cops don't carry - this is a marvel to me!). Plus....well... I just want to be ABLE to carry.
I will agree with the above: neighbor squabbles stick around even after you own a home. People are people.
To me, there was a bit a "neighbor rage" going on here, rather than road rage. We people want to have ownership over whatever small things we can afford to own anymore, whether it's the space outside our window or the space we can manage to park our bikes safely if we don't have a garage. I don't use rage in a pejorative way, only descriptive.
Whatever you decide to do depends on what outcome you want. If you make a frenemy (you can decide for yourself which relationship is more to you :laugh: ) with the grumpy neighbor, he may do you a good turn by going out and messing with some stranger that may be messing with your bike (just a thought). If you remain on grumpy terms, he won't give a shiite if he sees someone kick your bike over; he'll be laughing in glee on the inside.
You weren't wrong, but being right doesn't always get us what we need. I wouldn't ever ask for permission for something that I had a right to; I'd simply either talk to the neighbor or leave a note letting him/her know that the apartment/house owner had given me permission to park there so that no harm would come to my bike. I think a LOT of things in life could be made easier if people just TALKED to each other, but as a society, we're doing that less and less (that's the Rhetorician and the Sociologist in me coming out... I'm trying hard to keep the Psychologist firmly chained in the back yard! :icon_mrgreen:).
I doubt the two of you will hug it out, but I hope you get your pitbull neighbor to work FOR you rather than against you!
(http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u360/gstwin/afro3.gif)
Like I said, if I have to move the bike again due to another snow, I may leave him a note so he knows what's going on and doesn't think I'm just being an ass.
I'm not arguing with you; I think you're being very smart about the whole thing. I'm just laid up and bored this morning, and I get diarrhea of the keyboard when that happens. I will go find another thread to be bored in.
(http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u360/gstwin/afro3.gif)
P.S. Plus, I think this is a great discussion to have, because we all run into problem people around our bikes every day, and figuring out how to deal with them (which is exactly what you're doing and teaching others to do by posting) never goes out of date. I hope more people post their opinions, not because any are wrong or right, but because dealing with these things is important.
Quote from: pandy on February 15, 2017, 10:26:55 AM
I'm not arguing with you; I think you're being very smart about the whole thing. I'm just laid up and bored this morning, and I get diarrhea of the keyboard when that happens. I will go find another thread to be bored in.
(http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u360/gstwin/afro3.gif)
Lol I didn't think you were arguing. I welcome your input. If you have something worth saying, say it lol. :cheers:
Greetings ohh mighty pandy, i tend to agree with what she said. you both will be neighbours, its best to keep things cool with eachother if at all possible. or mend aany percieved misgivings by him if at all possible.
Aaron.
p.s. pandy will redo the purple fro smiley and pm the linkie to you soon.
Quote from: qcbaker on February 15, 2017, 10:38:42 AM
Lol I didn't think you were arguing. I welcome your input. If you have something worth saying, say it lol. :cheers:
I was already adding to my post above yours while you were typing. I just can't help myself! LOL :cheers:
I really DO think there are a LOT of good "problems" you posted about and discussion to be had: dealing with neighbors, in general; dealing with a neighbor who's grumpy about his/her "space," even if that space isn't really his/hers; dealing with landlords (getting your landlord's permission in advance was brilliant); dealing with grumpy neighbors who come out and show their grumpy world on us; dealing with others after a conflict centering on our beloved bikes; dealing with the frustration after we have encounters like this that make us want to split someone's head open; getting feedback, opinions, & advice from peers about what happened and what could happen in the future and how to deal with this shiite, etc., etc. And here you just thought you were posting a rant, right? :icon_mrgreen:
So far you're doing it all right .<---- if nothing else, I think you'll at least find that worth saying. LOL! We all get involved in confrontations and deal with asshats who think they own the world. Threads like this one help ALL of us *think* about what we could/would do, and that helps all of us (myself included!)!
(http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u360/gstwin/afro3.gif)
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on February 15, 2017, 10:51:02 AM
Greetings ohh mighty pandy, i tend to agree with what she said. you both will be neighbours, its best to keep things cool with eachother if at all possible. or mend aany percieved misgivings by him if at all possible.
Aaron.
p.s. pandy will redo the purple fro smiley and pm the linkie to you soon.
YamazUkiAaronHonk! I wondered when I'd finally run into you, ol' friend.... damn...I'm looking old and need a facelift? Look forward to seeing it! /end threadjack
Quote from: pandy on February 15, 2017, 10:54:05 AM
...
I really DO think there are a LOT of good "problems" you posted about and discussion to be had: dealing with neighbors, in general; dealing with a neighbor who's grumpy about his/her "space," even if that space isn't really his/hers; dealing with landlords (getting your landlord's permission in advance was brilliant); dealing with grumpy neighbors who come out and show their grumpy world on us; dealing with others after a conflict centering on our beloved bikes; dealing with the frustration after we have encounters like this that make us want to split someone's head open; getting feedback, opinions, & advice from peers about what happened and what could happen in the future and how to deal with this shiite, etc., etc. And here you just thought you were posting a rant, right? :icon_mrgreen:
...
Well, I didn't want to derail the thread topic too far with tangents lol. But you're right, those are all great topics for discussions. Since my original topic is more or less addressed, I guess anyone can feel free to post about anything tangentially related lol.
QC, you seem like a level headed fella.... as long as the neighbor is even remotely similar, I think you won't have any problems in the future.
I have an "apartment life" story: about 10 years ago I lived in a one bedroom upstairs apartment. There were 12 apartments in the building, with 3 walkways from the driveway that made a "Y" shape (so there were 4 apartment doors at each "Y"). In the winter, I would get up early for work and use my neighbors snow shovel (it sat outside his door) to clear the snow from all three Y's - just making a clear path out to the driveway that was plowed. Well, one afternoon I was getting home from work and my neighbor was watching out his window for me. He came outside and was PISSED that I had used his shovel - yelling, swearing, spit flying, everything. I apologized for using it without his permission, and said not to worry - it won't happen again. Come to find out, the neighbor on the other side heard the yelling and came outside. He said in front of the angry neighbor "Rich, I'll leave my shovel outside from now on. Feel free to use it when you like since the rest of us appreciate what you're doing."
Guess which neighbor had to shovel his own walkway?
To me the whole thing seems rather petty and avoidable. If it were me, I would have just apologized to the neighbor and explained why the bike was parked there. I imagine people are typically pretty reasonable -- especially if they're the ones creating a confrontation -- and would understand why the bike was parked there. With that having been said, however, I would not have been very happy if they continued to be inconsolable after the explanation.
Quote from: pandy on February 15, 2017, 09:43:11 AM
I kinda wish all of the U.S.ofA. was an open-carry country. I think that if we all just were ABLE to show phat pistols on our hips, there would be a lot less problems (yes, I realize that this is likely a bit controversial, especially in our peace-loving ally countries where even the cops don't carry - this is a marvel to me!). Plus....well... I just want to be ABLE to carry.
Surely carrying a weapon only works as a deterrent if the others aren't carrying too. If you're allowed to carry to a gun, does that mean it is legal for you to discharge in public as well? If it's not legal to fire your weapon in a public place then your gun becomes as much of a weapon as any of the other accessories your wearing?
In my more formative years going out to paint the town red was fairly literal, the night would almost always end in fisticuffs, once fought a dude who was wearing motorbike gloves with kevlar knuckles. Totally rung my bell! but other weaponisable accessories include your belt, wrap it around your hand like a brass knuckle or use it like a whip, your gloves make your punch so much nastier, a headbutt with a motorcycle helmet will cause some damage. I used to favour a stanley knife, I think you call them box cutters. Point is if you are carrying a weapon, legally or otherwise, you should be prepared to use to it.
When it comes to protecting your motorbike you've got to do what you've got to do. If you have to drop to your knees and please this clown, do it, if you need to shatter his knees with a crow bar...
I'm lucky, my neighbours don't complain but when I moved in I made a point of introducing myself to everyone maintain these relationships with things like Christmas cards and the odd gift. My neighbour took in my front tyre the other day so I bought them a pack of lager. Good luck in your quest for conflict resolution.
Chris
O0
Quote from: the_63 on February 28, 2017, 04:23:50 AM
Surely carrying a weapon only works as a deterrent if the others aren't carrying too.
I think the idea is that if everyone is carrying, then people will be a little more hesitant to start conflict, since they can assume the other person has a gun as well. I don't necessarily agree that it's the right way of dealing with things, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion about stuff. :dunno_black:
Quote
If you're allowed to carry to a gun, does that mean it is legal for you to discharge in public as well? If it's not legal to fire your weapon in a public place then your gun becomes as much of a weapon as any of the other accessories your wearing?
Being "allowed" to discharge a carried weapon depends on the circumstances. If your life is actively in danger, then yeah, sure, fire away. But shooting someone over anything less than a life and death situation is probably gonna land you in jail.
Quote
In my more formative years going out to paint the town red was fairly literal, the night would almost always end in fisticuffs, once fought a dude who was wearing motorbike gloves with kevlar knuckles. Totally rung my bell! but other weaponisable accessories include your belt, wrap it around your hand like a brass knuckle or use it like a whip, your gloves make your punch so much nastier, a headbutt with a motorcycle helmet will cause some damage. I used to favour a stanley knife, I think you call them box cutters. Point is if you are carrying a weapon, legally or otherwise, you should be prepared to use to it.
Thankfully, I haven't ever had to resort to a real weapon to end an altercation. I've always been able to either restrain the person (I wrestled for close to 10 years and did MMA for around 3) or avoid a fight entirely just by talking it out. My attitude is that unless you're fighting for sport (MMA, boxing, etc.) you should avoid a fight if you can, and end it as quickly as possible if you can't.
If you're ever
really in a pinch, put your car key in your fist so the key sticks out between your fingers and punch the attacker in the neck repeatedly. Fight over.
Quote
When it comes to protecting your motorbike you've got to do what you've got to do. If you have to drop to your knees and please this clown, do it, if you need to shatter his knees with a crow bar...
Lol, I seriously doubt it will come to that.
Quote
I'm lucky, my neighbours don't complain but when I moved in I made a point of introducing myself to everyone maintain these relationships with things like Christmas cards and the odd gift. My neighbour took in my front tyre the other day so I bought them a pack of lager. Good luck in your quest for conflict resolution.
Like I said, I'll leave him a note if I put the bike there again. I'm not trying to start an argument with the guy, but I'm not gonna kiss his ass, either.
Quote from: the_63 on February 28, 2017, 04:23:50 AM
Quote from: pandy on February 15, 2017, 09:43:11 AM
I kinda wish all of the U.S.ofA. was an open-carry country. I think that if we all just were ABLE to show phat pistols on our hips, there would be a lot less problems (yes, I realize that this is likely a bit controversial, especially in our peace-loving ally countries where even the cops don't carry - this is a marvel to me!). Plus....well... I just want to be ABLE to carry.
Surely carrying a weapon only works as a deterrent if the others aren't carrying too. If you're allowed to carry to a gun, does that mean it is legal for you to discharge in public as well?
I might be one of the most informed and simultaneously most opinionated person on this forum when it comes to being pro-gun, so I would like to weight in here on a few things.
Open Carry vs Concealed Carry... I don't like open carry. Open carry does a few things right. For one it is a big "don't mess with me" red flag to a lot of people. It also is the quickest to employ into action. And it allows you to carry something full-size. As a motorcyclist, having to dig through a jacket and shirt or get into a pocket, especially with gloves on, you might as well not be carrying. Adding to this, small compact pistols are nearly impossible to handle with an armored glove. So when I ride and I'm fully geared up in my pants and heavy gloves, I will carry a full-size 9mm open on my hip.
But what open-carry does wrong is a bigger issue. Like it or not, some people just aren't comfortable around firearms. So separate from your demeanor the very presence of the firearm can make people nervous. It also calls attention to you, and contrary to my first point for advantages it can make you a target. Suspect goes in to rob a bank, sees a gun on my hip, no one else is apparently armed, guess who he is attacking first... So I OC more out of necessity than want.
One interesting quote that tries to be pro carry is "An armed society is a polite society." It's easy to pick apart. The logic is "If a suspect knows that anyone may be potentially armed, he is less likely to commit a crime." The detractors spin on it and say "If everyone is scared they will be shot by whoever else they will be as nice as they can be, so it's really 'A scared society is a polite society.'" I lean more towards the first description, but add that all it really does is keep the honest honest, and give the criminals something to second guess. I don't see any reason why little old Mrs. Hatty going to 7/11 to buy her scratch off should be mortally afraid of me pumping gas with my Ruger on my hip...
Contrary to what most people think, a bunch of armed citizens is not equal to the "Wild West". I live in the literal cowboy country, here in AZ it's Constitutional Carry. That means I don't even need a license to carry a firearm in public. As long as I am not a convicted felon it is 100% legal for me to walk in downtown Tucson with a pistol on my hip, a Deringer in my pocket, or an AR15 on my back.
The whole "It's only a deterrent to others who aren't carrying;" no one is out here to start a gunfight. This isn't the "Wild West," you don't settle fights at sunset outside the watering hole. Most people who stick you up aren't out to get hurt, or even hurt you, really. They just want something you have.
In most instances it is illegal to discharge a firearm within one mile of a residence or within the city limits. That being said, the law is meant to keep people from plinking in their back yards.
Take this for example, there is dangerous wildlife out here and if you get attacked by a mountain lion within 1 mile of someone's ranch no court in the state would convict you for defending yourself. Don't say it wont happen, I live 10-15 minutes from the base of a mountain and Coronado National Forest is on two sides of me, which has native Mountain Lions, Bobcats, and Black Bears, not to mention rattle-snakes that do enter the city limits.
But that is another huge talking point. Many will say a firearm is a tool to defend life, home, and property. I think property is a little bit of a grey area.
Someone kicks in my front door and they're getting about 5 ounces of buck shot in their chest, no second guess. Only reason you are literally breaking down my door is to cause harm.
Someone opens fire on a shopping mall and I'm at ground zero I'm not going to be a static bystander. I'm not out to be a hero, either, I'm not running TOWARDS the sounds of gunfire, but if I'm there I'm going to open fire.
Someone tries to pick a fight with me in an ally and pulls a knife on me, I pull a gun.
But if someone puts a gun in my face and demands I give them my wallet, they're getting my wallet, and I'm calling the police and cancelling those credit cards as soon as I can. There's no way on earth I can draw and put rounds on a guy who had a pistol trained on me and live, I'd be dead before I cleared leather, unless they were bluffing and had a toy gun or it was unloaded or something.
But at any rate I'm cooperating. Then once they're turned around and running, guess what? If I shoot them in the back I get charged for murder...
A firearm is a specific tool for a specific job, and that is to combat lethal force. It's not a show of force, it's not a boasting token, it's not "That guy looked shady and I pulled my gun to be safe," it's not "That Bobcat was in my way and I thought I would get attacked if I approached it."
It's one thing only. "My life is in danger, and I feel if I don't kill I will be killed."
Quote from: Watcher on February 28, 2017, 12:08:34 PM
...
In most instances it is illegal to discharge a firearm within one mile of a residence or within the city limits. That being said, the law is meant to keep people from plinking in their back yards.
Take this for example, there is dangerous wildlife out here and if you get attacked by a mountain lion within 1 mile of someone's ranch no court in the state would convict you for defending yourself. Don't say it wont happen, I live 10-15 minutes from the base of a mountain and Coronado National Forest is on two sides of me, which has native Mountain Lions, Bobcats, and Black Bears, not to mention rattle-snakes that do enter the city limits.
...
I just want to say, I hike and fish in northern PA all the time, and have encountered all of these animals multiple times. A gun is not required for dealing with any of them. Bobcats are not going to attack you unless you are actively attempting to kill or trap it. You'd be lucky to even SEE one before it ran. Same with black bears. Unless you're between a mother and her cubs, just back away slowly. You'll be fine. As for rattlesnakes, there's no situation where shooting the snake is the right move. If it bit you before you saw it or heard it rattle (very, VERY unlikely), shooting it is not going to help you. You need to go to a hospital ASAP. Not to mention, you'd have to shoot the snake in the head to prevent it from trying to bite again, which is a ridiculously small target you need to hit AFTER being subject to an incredibly painful snakebite. Good luck landing that shot. If you hear a rattle or see a snake before it bites, just back off. Snakes don't want to bite anything they can't eat, its a waste of energy.
Mountain Lions are a different story. I have read stories of them stalking and attacking people, so being armed while in Lion territory seems like a smart move to me. No mountain lions in PA though, so I've never even seen a live one outside of a zoo.
Very well said, Watcher. Ohio isn't as gun friendly as Arizona, but I can also open carry without a permit. I choose not to, except when hunting, and as you have mentioned around here a couple of times, if I were to be carrying while riding (something I'll likely do more often as I begin to ride more often), I'd open carry due to necessity. Before I can do that, though, I'll need a nice OWB holster for my SR9.
Watcher, right on the money man!
FWIW TX doesn't have Constitutional carry, but we did recently pass both open carry (for CHL holders, which is kind of silly) and campus carry. I carry concealed every day all the time pretty much no exceptions except maybe when I'm on my mountain bike. I don't OC except for when it's absolutely the only option; for example I'll OC my CW9 when tramping around my parents' ranch land out in the way out country and probably to and from that place as well (in the car). I probably would OC in the car on a long trip within TX, and I don't mind OCing when pumping gas or stopping at a rest stop along the way. You know the midst of the King Ranch in South Texas can be pretty dodgy territory and rest stops in the middle of the night are particularly iffy. I prefer the deterrent and quick response. But life is better if nobody knows I'm carrying except me.
Now, I don't fully ascribe to your thoughts on protecting property but the law in TX is different; we are specifically protected when using deadly force to prevent property crime. I do think citizens using deadly force to defend against property crime, especially armed robbery as you suggest, is a huge deterrent against property crime. Austin PD has a terrible (nonexistent, likely) track record on prosecuting specific property crime. Basically if someone steals your car they don't even bother to look for it. Ditto that if your house is burglarized or someone rolls you for your laptop and cell phone. And let me tell you, I have a serious life problem if my car is stolen or someone takes my laptop. And like you, if someone breaks into my house it's going to end very badly with a few rounds of 000 buckshot and very loud 12-ga reports. I pray that will absolutely never happen, but nevertheless I won't be caught unprepared.
I once heard Jerry Seinfeld (an avid cyclist ...) say that you shouldn't do any activity which requires a helmet. Well, I kind of feel the same way about carrying a gun. I carry all the time. But I simply don't go to places or get into situations where I feel like I might *need* one. If anyone discovers I am carrying, it's because there's a life or death emergency in progress.
Quote from: qcbaker on February 28, 2017, 01:17:08 PM
Quote from: Watcher on February 28, 2017, 12:08:34 PM
...
Mountain Lions, Bobcats, and Black Bears, not to mention rattle-snakes that do enter the city limits.
...
A gun is not required for dealing with any of them. Bobcats are not going to attack you unless you are actively attempting to kill or trap it. You'd be lucky to even SEE one before it ran. Same with black bears. Unless you're between a mother and her cubs, just back away slowly. You'll be fine. As for rattlesnakes, there's no situation where shooting the snake is the right move. If it bit you before you saw it or heard it rattle (very, VERY unlikely), shooting it is not going to help you. You need to go to a hospital ASAP. Not to mention, you'd have to shoot the snake in the head to prevent it from trying to bite again, which is a ridiculously small target you need to hit AFTER being subject to an incredibly painful snakebite. Good luck landing that shot. If you hear a rattle or see a snake before it bites, just back off. Snakes don't want to bite anything they can't eat, its a waste of energy.
I won't say you NEED a gun vs bobcats, but as the saying goes "it's better to have and not need than to need and not have". Yes, bobcat are fairly docile. That being said, most attacks I hear of are on small children and pets, and people HAVE had bobcats try and take a dog on a leash. My cousin a short distance away has frequent bobcat visits on his property that come in from the nearby wash. Sometimes he'll go to let the puppers out and see one up on the stone fence. He hasn't had a problem yet, but it is something to be cautious of.
Re: rattlesnakes, they are considered a pest out here in many instances, but the big thing nobody takes into consideration is that they are territorial. In the wild you probably have one rattlesnake per 50 square meters, and they will defend their plot. From other rattlesnakes, from other animals even.
The rattle is enough of a warning most times, and in the wild you would simply back away from a snake. Bit, if and when a rattler decides that the backyard where the dog poops or the shady spot right under your car's driver's door is a prime location for them to make "home," they sit there and hold their ground. You approach and it's not slither away into a hole, it's coil up, rattle, and prepare to strike.
The "right thing" to do is call the local fire department and they come with a 5 gallon bucket and some 4-foot long grabbers and take the snake away, but considering the territorial nature of the snakes and their fairly specific needs relocating them often does not result in the snake's survival. What they actually do with the snakes when they're collected I'm not sure. In lieu of that, a Bond Arms Deringer loaded with .410 shot gets the job done so your dog is safe in the back yard or you can actually enter your vehicle...
Quote from: mr72 on February 28, 2017, 03:08:34 PM
Now, I don't fully ascribe to your thoughts on protecting property but the law in TX is different; we are specifically protected when using deadly force to prevent property crime. I do think citizens using deadly force to defend against property crime, especially armed robbery as you suggest, is a huge deterrent against property crime.
My statement shouldn't be taken to mean I'd be outside my rights to shoot someone trying to steal my motorcycle, it's to mean I don't feel like property theft is justifiable homicide. Even if I'm currently strapped, someone tossing a leg over and trying to ride my Buell off will be met with my knuckles before a hollowpoint.
Quote from: Watcher on February 28, 2017, 04:00:46 PM
My statement shouldn't be taken to mean I'd be outside my rights to shoot someone trying to steal my motorcycle, it's to mean I don't feel like property theft is justifiable homicide. Even if I'm currently strapped, someone tossing a leg over and trying to ride my Buell off will be met with my knuckles before a hollowpoint.
I suppose I was talking specifically about what you said, an armed robber. Someone holding you up at gunpoint. That's an imminent threat to your life, and not only yours but the next victim, who may not be as compliant and might get shot. Since the APD won't stop these thugs it is up to the citizens. IMHO.
Now, if someone tries to ride off on my motorcycle they are probably going to be looking own the barrel of my 9mm and I will kindly invite them to leave it be, and be on their way. I don't plan to shoot someone over it but my bike is not insured and I don't intend to just watch someone ride off on it if I can stop it. However, the nice thing about having a cheap and busted motorcycle is nobody will likely want to steal it.
The thing is, in Texas, someone (in the daytime) trying to steal your motorcycle or any other property does not justify the use of deadly force. The
threat of deadly force (that is, display a firearm, shout "stop or I'll shoot!" etc.) is considered "the use of force", so it is justified whenever the use of force is justified. And the use of
force (not deadly force) is justified to prevent theft
in the daytime. So-called "theft in the nighttime" justifies (legally) the use of "deadly force". In fact there was a case just as you describe, but at night, just down the road in Lago Vista here a couple of years ago. Someone attempted to steal some property in the nighttime, may have even been a motorcycle, and they were shot (and killed, IIRC) while fleeing with the property, made big news locally but there was no filing of charges against the victim (shooter).
This is all pretty technical and weird but it does make a big difference. If you (the "grand" you) intend to carry a firearm then it is incumbent to know the law regarding the use of deadly force because at the very least you will be prepared on what the legally-justified options are when you encounter a situation. Just like you said, it's not "the wild west" as many who live in gun-free areas would believe, mostly because those who legally carry firearms at least in Texas tend to be well educated on the use of deadly force and have thought through scenarios to know what their response will be ahead of time.
Maybe someday I'll start a thread that doesn't drift away from the original topic by page 2...
Quote from: qcbaker on March 01, 2017, 08:36:58 AM
Maybe someday I'll start a thread that doesn't drift away from the original topic by page 2...
HAHA! This is Odds n Ends, right?
To bring it back on topic and tie in the recent discussion, I'll say this: I don't recommend shooting your neighbor over this. :)
Yes, definitely don't brandish a weapon at your neighbor while saying "Come at me, bro." :cheers:
I disagree :icon_mrgreen:
Have you seen your neighbour since?
Chris
O0
Quote from: Watcher on February 28, 2017, 04:00:46 PM
I won't say you NEED a gun vs bobcats, but as the saying goes "it's better to have and not need than to need and not have". Yes, bobcat are fairly docile. That being said, most attacks I hear of are on small children and pets, and people HAVE had bobcats try and take a dog on a leash. My cousin a short distance away has frequent bobcat visits on his property that come in from the nearby wash. Sometimes he'll go to let the puppers out and see one up on the stone fence. He hasn't had a problem yet, but it is something to be cautious of.
I get what you mean. Still, I don't know that any of those things are enough for me to want to carry a gun "in case of bobcat attack." You're far more likely to be attacked by a stray dog than a bobcat, but you don't see anyone carrying guns around because of that.
Anyway, I've never heard of a bobcat trying to take a kid, but its within the realm of possibility I guess. Children are pretty noisy, generally, and bobcats tend to steer clear of anything making a bunch of noise. Plus, kids are normally close enough to adults that a bobcat wouldn't even think about it. So I don't think it's super likely that a bobcat would ever really identify a child as a potential meal. But if a little kid was being quiet and somehow got far enough away from a parent, doesn't seem too outlandish that the cat would stalk/attack a little kid.
Dogs are not unheard of as prey, but I'd say it's pretty unlikely too. Any bobcat I've ever seen bolts at the slightest indication that it's been discovered (or any loud noise in general, really), and dogs aren't exactly the most subtle of animals. If a dog barked in its general direction, it would be up a tree or something. They might go for a small dog if it were alone and they were able to sneak up on it, I guess, but how often is that the case? And attacking a leashed dog, right near a person? Basically unthinkable. Maybe AZ bobcats are braver than their PA wilderness cousins lol.
Generally speaking, big cats don't like to stalk/kill anything they think will put up a fight. They can't risk getting injured in the process of getting their food. Dogs have been known to put mountain lions up a tree, simply because the lion decided it wasn't worth the risk of injury even if they were to kill the dog. If mountain lions have second thoughts about attacking dogs, I seriously doubt a bobcat would try it unless it was either basically guaranteed a kill (small dog, no humans around, dog has not smelled/noticed the bobcat, etc.), or REALLY desperate.
Quote
Re: rattlesnakes, they are considered a pest out here in many instances, but the big thing nobody takes into consideration is that they are territorial. In the wild you probably have one rattlesnake per 50 square meters, and they will defend their plot. From other rattlesnakes, from other animals even.
The rattle is enough of a warning most times, and in the wild you would simply back away from a snake. Bit, if and when a rattler decides that the backyard where the dog poops or the shady spot right under your car's driver's door is a prime location for them to make "home," they sit there and hold their ground. You approach and it's not slither away into a hole, it's coil up, rattle, and prepare to strike.
The "right thing" to do is call the local fire department and they come with a 5 gallon bucket and some 4-foot long grabbers and take the snake away, but considering the territorial nature of the snakes and their fairly specific needs relocating them often does not result in the snake's survival. What they actually do with the snakes when they're collected I'm not sure. In lieu of that, a Bond Arms Deringer loaded with .410 shot gets the job done so your dog is safe in the back yard or you can actually enter your vehicle...
Yeah, I guess the territoriality of rattlers could be a problem if they decide your back yard is part of their property... Still, while shooting the snake does "solve the problem" so to speak, that wouldn't be what I would do. I'd rather just have the snake removed than kill it outright. Although, if it bit and killed a pet, maybe I'd feel differently. :dunno_black:
Side note: My girlfriend's grandfather has participated in quite a few "snake hunt" contests in Northern PA over the years. He's caught and relocated probably hundreds of snakes (and various other animals, actually) in his lifetime... I'd probably just call him and have him help me remove it if I had a snake problem. He was apparently well-known in the hunting scene way back in the day. There were articles written in hunting mags about his trips and stuff. Cool dude, love talking fishing with him whenever I see him.
Quote from: mr72 on March 01, 2017, 08:43:14 AM
HAHA! This is Odds n Ends, right?
To bring it back on topic and tie in the recent discussion, I'll say this: I don't recommend shooting your neighbor over this. :)
Quote from: Watcher on March 01, 2017, 08:57:49 AM
Yes, definitely don't brandish a weapon at your neighbor while saying "Come at me, bro." :cheers:
Yeah, I don't plan on making this disagreement physical at all lol. Was originally just wondering if it was really me who was being the jerk.
Quote from: the_63 on March 01, 2017, 09:05:51 AM
I disagree :icon_mrgreen:
Have you seen your neighbour since?
Chris
O0
I'm NOT gonna shoot him lol. And actually, no I haven't seen him since. He's an older guy (early 70's maybe?) and I think he might be sick. I've seen people in scrubs (home health nurses, I'm pretty sure) coming and going to and from his apartment bringing in groceries and stuff as long as I've lived here, so I don't know that he gets out much.
Quote from: qcbaker on March 01, 2017, 10:08:24 AM
Still, I don't know that any of those things are enough for me to want to carry a gun "in case of bobcat attack." You're far more likely to be attacked by a stray dog than a bobcat, but you don't see anyone carrying guns around because of that.
For those of us who choose to carry daily, like myself and probably Watcher, it's irrelevant why. "in case of a bobcat attack" is not why you carry. Or snakes or other wildlife. You carry in case you ever need it, and there is a wide range of reasons you might, enough to warrant the very minor inconvenience of carrying, much like wearing a seatbelt. Or a helmet on your motorcycle. When you need it, you absolutely need it and nothing else will get the job done. If you are evaluating situations and trying to account for the "need" to carry a gun, I'd say your mentality is not compatible with carrying in general.
Quote
Yeah, I guess the territoriality of rattlers could be a problem if they decide your back yard is part of their property... Still, while shooting the snake does "solve the problem" so to speak, that wouldn't be what I would do. I'd rather just have the snake removed than kill it outright. Although, if it bit and killed a pet, maybe I'd feel differently. :dunno_black:
Growing up around snakes (and yes, I had many as pets as a kid), my rule of thumb in all cases is venomous snakes are killed when in a residential area and nonvenomous snakes are always left alone no matter what. I wouldn't even hesitate to kill a rattlesnake in a suburban park like where I go mountain biking, but those are not the most dangerous snakes. A copperhead is far more likely to bite without giving warning and a coral snake bite is much more likely to kill you or cause a serious injury.
Quote
Was originally just wondering if it was really me who was being the jerk.
Being totally honest, yeah. A little bit. IMHO.
Yeah, in the case of a bobcat an attack is a very unlikely situation, it was just a small example in a multitude. Just trying to say dangerous creatures are out here and that could influence the decision to carry.
But it does seem AZ bobcats are bolder. Especially the ones that can be seen in town, they're used to human presence and will stay put on a trail until you get within rock throwing distance before moving off, and noise alone doesn't seem to be that much of a deterrent. They'll hop fences and take down small dogs, even while being barked at.
I'm sure my leash example is a one in a million chance, but I have heard of it happening. An animal in an environment scarce for food and acclimated to human presence is capable of a lot of things you wouldn't expect.
Coronado National Forest resident bobcats are infinitely more skittish, you rarely see them. But city bobcats? Basically a whole other animal.
But as mr72 said the decision to carry isn't based on one factor alone.
It's not at all like a spare tire; you don't walk around carrying a spare at all times, it remains in your vehicle because you 100% will not need it outside of driving.
That being said, many people do carry a firearm solely for wilderness, and will take something with when hiking, but they won't carry in town. And that's their choice based on their perception of what defines a need.
But for me, as a daily routine, it's not about the mountain lion, or the robber I may or may not encounter, or the gunman at a movie theater. It's somehow all of those at once, and yet none of those at all.
It's hard to explain. At this point its more of a lifestyle than a decision...
The simplest explanation is that I understand that I live in a dangerous world, and while I can protect myself from the sun and the earth by wearing clothing, I can't do the same for someone or something that desires to do me harm.
Quote from: mr72 on March 01, 2017, 10:23:33 AM
For those of us who choose to carry daily, like myself and probably Watcher, it's irrelevant why. "in case of a bobcat attack" is not why you carry. Or snakes or other wildlife. You carry in case you ever need it, and there is a wide range of reasons you might, enough to warrant the very minor inconvenience of carrying, much like wearing a seatbelt. Or a helmet on your motorcycle. When you need it, you absolutely need it and nothing else will get the job done. If you are evaluating situations and trying to account for the "need" to carry a gun, I'd say your mentality is not compatible with carrying in general.
I wasn't trying to discourage you or Watcher from carrying, so sorry if it came off that way. You're right though, If I had a handgun, I probably wouldn't carry it around every day, concealed or otherwise. But, I have no real problems with carrying, in and of itself.
I actually don't currently own any guns, but in the future I'll probably end up with one or more. I like trap and target shooting a lot, and I've thought about going deer hunting at some point, so a rifle and a shotgun are in the "possible future purchase" category for me. Don't know if I want or need a handgun.
Quote
Growing up around snakes (and yes, I had many as pets as a kid), my rule of thumb in all cases is venomous snakes are killed when in a residential area and nonvenomous snakes are always left alone no matter what. I wouldn't even hesitate to kill a rattlesnake in a suburban park like where I go mountain biking, but those are not the most dangerous snakes. A copperhead is far more likely to bite without giving warning and a coral snake bite is much more likely to kill you or cause a serious injury.
I was mainly just talking about rattlers specifically. I'd probably still opt for relocation rather than killing, but yeah, copperheads and coral snakes are much more dangerous than rattlers for sure.
Quote
Being totally honest, yeah. A little bit. IMHO.
Eh, you're probably right. I'm not perfect.
Quote from: Watcher on March 01, 2017, 10:44:57 AM
Yeah, in the case of a bobcat an attack is a very unlikely situation, it was just a small example in a multitude. Just trying to say dangerous creatures are out here and that could influence the decision to carry.
But it does seem AZ bobcats are bolder. Especially the ones that can be seen in town, they're used to human presence and will stay put on a trail until you get within rock throwing distance before moving off, and noise alone doesn't seem to be that much of a deterrent. They'll hop fences and take down small dogs, even while being barked at.
I'm sure my leash example is a one in a million chance, but I have heard of it happening. An animal in an environment scarce for food and acclimated to human presence is capable of a lot of things you wouldn't expect.
Coronado National Forest resident bobcats are infinitely more skittish, you rarely see them. But city bobcats? Basically a whole other animal.
Same thing happens around here with coyotes. They're so used to people that they just kind of walk around in the suburbs cause a lot of problems with attacking pets and stuff. So, makes perfect sense to me that a different predator could do the same thing somewhere else. I just haven't heard of bobcats doing that (at least in PA lol).
Quote
But as mr72 said the decision to carry isn't based on one factor alone. You don't walk around carrying a spare tire in case of a flat, it remains in your vehicle because you don't expect you'll need it outside of driving.
Relating to that many people do carry a firearm solely for wilderness, and will take a .44mag when hiking, but they won't carry in town. And that's their choice based on their perception of what defines a need.
Yeah, that's more in line with the way I personally think about the situation. I carry the stuff I feel like its reasonable to assume I may need based on my current situation. Gun might be on the list if I'm hiking in mountain lion territory, but its not likely to be on the list if I'm just walking around town.
Quote
But for me, as a daily routine, it's not about the mountain lion, or the robber I may or may not encounter, or the gunman at a movie theater. It's somehow all of those at once, and yet none of those at all.
It's hard to explain. At this point its more of a lifestyle than a decision.
The simplest explanation is that I understand that I live in a dangerous world, and while I can protect myself from the sun and the earth by wearing clothing, I can't do the same for someone or something that desires to do me harm.
I get you. Like I said before, I wasn't trying to discourage you from carrying. Do you, mate. :cheers:
I was just saying the likelihood of attacks from bobcats, bears, and rattlesnakes is a little low to warrant carrying a gun, IMO, if that were the main concern. I know animal attacks really aren't your biggest reason for carrying, but it felt like interesting conversation nonetheless lol.
Quote from: Watcher on March 01, 2017, 10:44:57 AM
The simplest explanation is that I understand that I live in a dangerous world, and while I can protect myself from the sun and the earth by wearing clothing, I can't do the same for someone or something that desires to do me harm.
For me it's a little bit more like why I carry, say, my health insurance card. I only really need it when I am going to the Dr. But I have at least once in my life found myself awakened from unconsciousness while in an ambulance. So there are certain emergencies that you can't foresee that might necessitate its use. Same for carrying a firearm. Any situation I
can foresee needing a firearm for protection is just too dangerous a situation for me to get into, so I avoid those situations if at all possible. I carry a gun for all of the situations I can't foresee wherein I might need it. Unfortunately, you almost never know you need a gun until it's too late to get one, so if you don't carry all the time, you can't possibly be prepared in the unlikely incident where you absolutely need it.
Oh and speaking of urban wildlife, feral dogs are far more dangerous than the sum total of snakes, rabid bats, rare mountain lions, ticked off bobcats, etc. I've done a lot of mountain biking at night in urban and suburban wilderness spaces ("parks"...) and there are two main threats when you are out there: 1. is packs of feral or otherwise "wild" dogs, and 2. are people who are up to no good and are not fond of being surprised by a mountain biker when they think they are alone in the woods. But really people are far and away more dangerous than any wildlife.
I must say, I feel like this conversation is going unusually well. Normally opposing sides would be kicking off by now. Kudos to all :cheers:
Chris
O0
Quote from: mr72 on March 01, 2017, 11:45:10 AM
Quote from: Watcher on March 01, 2017, 10:44:57 AM
The simplest explanation is that I understand that I live in a dangerous world, and while I can protect myself from the sun and the earth by wearing clothing, I can't do the same for someone or something that desires to do me harm.
For me it's a little bit more like why I carry, say, my health insurance card. I only really need it when I am going to the Dr. But I have at least once in my life found myself awakened from unconsciousness while in an ambulance. So there are certain emergencies that you can't foresee that might necessitate its use. Same for carrying a firearm. Any situation I can foresee needing a firearm for protection is just too dangerous a situation for me to get into, so I avoid those situations if at all possible. I carry a gun for all of the situations I can't foresee wherein I might need it. Unfortunately, you almost never know you need a gun until it's too late to get one, so if you don't carry all the time, you can't possibly be prepared in the unlikely incident where you absolutely need it.
Yeah, I feel the same way, too. "It's better to have and not need than need and not have."
Quote from: mr72 on March 01, 2017, 11:45:10 AM
...
Oh and speaking of urban wildlife, feral dogs are far more dangerous than the sum total of snakes, rabid bats, rare mountain lions, ticked off bobcats, etc. I've done a lot of mountain biking at night in urban and suburban wilderness spaces ("parks"...) and there are two main threats when you are out there: 1. is packs of feral or otherwise "wild" dogs, and 2. are people who are up to no good and are not fond of being surprised by a mountain biker when they think they are alone in the woods. But really people are far and away more dangerous than any wildlife.
True that. I've been chased around on dirt bike trails by dogs more than once. I don't want to call them feral, since I'm pretty sure they were owned by a guy who lives out in the woods up where I used to ride at, but they were mean regardless. One time, one of them bit one of the guys riding with us on the leg as we rode by. Luckily it wasn't serious and he was just able to twist the throttle and ride off, but if he had crashed or if they had pulled him off his bike it could've been much worse.
Haven't had any
problems with people yet, but I've definitely run into people out in the woods.
Quote from: the_63 on March 01, 2017, 11:55:30 AM
I must say, I feel like this conversation is going unusually well. Normally opposing sides would be kicking off by now. Kudos to all :cheers:
Chris
O0
Oh right, we're all supposed to be at each other's throats by now... Uhhh...
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder902/32634902.jpg)
Are we all fighting yet?
Quote from: the_63 on March 01, 2017, 11:55:30 AM
I must say, I feel like this conversation is going unusually well. Normally opposing sides would be kicking off by now. Kudos to all :cheers:
Chris
O0
Well, I like to think that we're all open minded adults, but the fact that we share a common interest in motorcycling perhaps we're all being more open to the opinions of others through a mutual respect.
Usually I get into firearms discussions on FaceBook or something and it quickly devolves to name calling and flat out opinion bashing.
People just can't accept that what works for X might not work for Y or even Z.
Quote from: Watcher on March 01, 2017, 12:05:31 PM
People just can't accept that what works for X might not work for Y or even Z.
There's that, plus the fact that many people don't have the context or experience to make rational judgments about things that differ from their own habits or behaviors.
Happens on all kinds of topics. Attitudes adapt with experience.
Just saw this in my facebook feed:
QuoteMy good friend was jumped/stabbed/robbed right outside of Sidebar last night by four people, which was totally unprovoked. Thankfully he was released from the hospital after getting 15 stitches and suffering a broken nose, and the incident was caught on camera.
This is a place that my friends and I tend to frequent when going out, and it never hurts to be reminded that things can go south real quick. Stay aware, don't be/walk places alone, and just know there are some kitty cat ass people out there who will try and take advantage of you. Look after each other, and best believe I'll throw down mercilessly on anyone who comes at me, my girlfriend, my friends, my family, or an innocent stranger in my presence. Have a blessed day.
That's in Austin.
Good thing in Texas guns are prohibited from bars! That way only the criminals can be armed, which I suppose reduces "gun violence" since the armed robber gets away without any injury that was inflicted by firearm.
This is why i don't play music in bars. This is why I am building my own pub in my own house. Bars are among the places too dangerous for me to go unarmed and it so happens the great state of Texas bans my right to protect myself in such a dangerous place.
Been following along, enjoying the thread!
Just like to say +1 for personal pub/bar in a home! My pap built the one in his (now my) house back in the 60's and I can't tell ya how many parties it has seen... and all my friends absolutely love coming to the "Brandle Street Bar" :cheers:
Quote from: Watcher on March 01, 2017, 08:57:49 AM
Yes, definitely don't brandish a weapon at your neighbor while saying "Come at me, bro." :cheers:
When I lived in phoenix while AT MMI, as being an open carry state, meaning one can carry a firearm as long as it is visible and as long you can legally possess said firearm, I carried either my glock 21 or an off brand 9mm (glock was a .45 acp) it shortened my trip to work at bank. I Could go through so e rather shady neighborhoods. Never brandished weapon, I just placed holster on dashboard. Just had to hide it at work. Since I was an unarmed guard. Long story short, id do my best to at least make peace with neighbor if at all possible. If not, at least make like he doesn't exist. Trying to avoid conflict imho is the best option.
Aaron
So, as some of you know, it snowed a bunch Monday night into yesterday and today. So you may have wondered how I handled the bike/snow situation. Well, my bike is currently at the shop for inspection/11k mile service, so I did not have to store it on the porch this time. Lucky too, since it was so windy that a large amount of snow drifted up onto the porch and the bike would've gotten a bit buried anyway.
This weather is total stinkin' crap :technical: :2guns: :super grumpy:
Update: so on Monday night, we had a tornado warning in my area. The winds were extremely high for a period of time and I was worried my bike would get blown over if left in my normal parking spot. So, I put the bike on the porch again. Bear in mind, that I have been told by my landlord that I am allowed to do this (this is important). I did not, however, leave Mr. Grumpy a note or inform him I would be doing this, as I did not really have time. I left the bike there overnight and rode it to work in the morning, making sure to quietly roll the bike off the porch before starting it. No complaints yet, so we're aces, right? Haha, NOPE.
So, I get home from work and I notice a piece of paper on the floor in front of all our doors. Upon reading it, I find that it says something along the lines of "We received a complaint about a motorcycle on the porch, please refrain from doing this, blah blah blah". The landlord literally told me I can put my bike on the porch when the weather makes it unsafe to park it where I normally do. So, I call the landlord and express my distaste for getting a letter asking me not do to a thing they have told my I am allowed to do. Long story short, they basically ended up admitting that they had no problem with me parking the bike there and only sent the letter because 1.) the person who fielded the call is new and didn't know whose bike it was and 2.) they just wanted to placate Mr. Grumpy. So, I kind of went off on this lady a bit. I didn't yell or curse, but I made sure she knew I was NOT happy about this. I said "You do realize there was a TORNADO warning, right? It's not like I intentionally parked the bike there to be a jerk, I parked it there because it was out of the wind and I didn't want the bike to get blown over and get damaged or to fall onto someone else's car and damage their car. And most importantly, not even considering the weather situation, it wasn't even there for a day. I parked the bike at like 2PM and moved it at 7:30AM the next morning. Its not like I left it there for an extended period of time. And its not like I was running it outside of his window.Plus, you guys have literally told me I can park it there if I need to because of the weather. I called you when it snowed and you guys were like 'Yeah, sure no problem at all! We totally understand!' But now, you're gonna send out a notice telling me not to just because Mr. Grumpy called and complained? You can see how that is frustrating to me, right?" She basically responded by apologizing and saying "That resident is probably going to be put on probation for harassment, based on the number of frivolous complaints he puts in. You can just ignore the notice, its fine." I just made sure she had my cell number and said "You guys have literally told me its okay to park the bike there temporarily if it's at risk. If there's a complaint, please just call me directly, I am perfectly willing to explain why the bike is there. Please don't send out a notice just to placate this guy. If he's putting in frivolous complaints, please push back and tell him I have permission to park the bike there and it should be moved soon." She agreed, I thanked her and apologized if I came off as unnecessarily angry, and hung up.
I cannot f*cking stand this kind of behavior, ESPECIALLY from a landlord. I get it, they just wanted to calm him down and get him off the phone. But you can't just let a douchebag get what they want simply because they're a persistent douchebag. Its like a dog: If you give him treats to shut him up when he barks, he learns that barking gets you treats.
My current plan is to go to the office and get written, signed permission from my landlord to temporarily park my bike on the porch if there is a situation in which the bike is at risk of being damaged. If I get another notice or call about this, I am going to photocopy this permission slip and go have a talk with Mr. Grumpy personally. I'm sick of his sh*t. I'm not going to stand by and let this motherf*cker get away with acting this way. When this is over, he is going to:
1.) Lose this argument
2.) Know he lost this argument.
3.) Sit there and stew about it.
When I'm done, I'm basically going to be this:
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/237/664/f8b.gif)
Bark all you want @$$hole, I'm not giving you any treats.
(https://media.tenor.co/images/6b301baa74fc11ba490ea1c7303df684/raw)
So wait, she told you it was ok, then told him she was going to have a conversation with you, then put a note at everyone's door saying it's not ok?
Sounds like a good way to fuel a fire. Either the landlord is afraid of confrontation and will tell everyone what they want to hear, even if those things contradict each other, or she hasn't quite figured out what the hell SHE wants in all of this. All that's gonna happen is it's going to turn into a bigger issue between you and Mr. Grumpy and he's going to cite the notice and if a neighbor hears you bickering and wants to get involved then they will cite their notice and it's going to spiral out of control.
If you do get a letter telling you it's ok I would be sure to get it notarized, then make copies and somehow affix one to the bike whenever you park it there.
Or, and I hate to suggest this (being the stubborn guy that I am), look for a more bike friendly apartment. If you go to the landlord saying this is the straw that broke the camel's back and you're leaving, if you were a good tenant maybe she'll offer some kind of recompense, but it's obvious she don't give two shits about what's right and whats wrong. What happens when you have a complaint about another tenant? She might be one to pull the "well, we let you, so..." thing.
BS...
Watcher, that's a good idea affixing a copy of the permission to the bike itself, I hadn't thought of that. As for the rest, I'm not going to threaten to leave the apartment since its not worth moving over this. But, I do plan on getting the written permission and when I do, I'll put the note on the bike like you said.
I love this thread too much.... I have had to deal with people like this every apartment complex I have lived in. I get the guy at first being a "little" peeved about seeing the bike and I would have spoken to you about it the first time it happened. However once you let me know you had permission it would have been done and I would have just asked you to not start it by my window. This guy is being a B*$ch and just wants to have a problem with something, he looks for crap to be mad about. OR his significant other has a problem with it and he is getting it from that person. Either way you are in the right...
Keep fighting the good fight :woohoo: :cheers:
Quote from: 89gS500_Kirk on June 26, 2017, 05:46:29 AM
I love this thread too much.... I have had to deal with people like this every apartment complex I have lived in. I get the guy at first being a "little" peeved about seeing the bike and I would have spoken to you about it the first time it happened. However once you let me know you had permission it would have been done and I would have just asked you to not start it by my window. This guy is being a B*$ch and just wants to have a problem with something, he looks for crap to be mad about. OR his significant other has a problem with it and he is getting it from that person. Either way you are in the right...
Keep fighting the good fight :woohoo: :cheers:
well said. :thumb:
Aaron
I've enjoyed reading this saga - I figured from the start the landlord was the conflict avoider. Will just say yes to your face, to tell you what you want hear and avoid confronting the fact it could be an issue with others wanting to use the public space (even though this particular complainer just sounds spiteful) Then later turn around and put a letter out saying no. So she didn't ever have to say it to your face and avoided face to face conflict.
People do this all the time to avoid face to face. I think of emails in the workplace - they seem to facilitate the behavior.
I doubt she will really do anything to this guy for his complaining other than more things that appease him to avoid conflict. It's not surprising that it escalated the way it did. She's doing the same to you as she's doing to the spiteful complainer.
I used to work for an apartment complex. 14 buildings, 20 apts per building, mostly college kids with money. A tenant had his bike rolled into the pond. Tenant had bike repaired. It happened again. He ends buying a brand new bike. Asks management if he can park it in the breezeway, as everyone is aware of pond incidents. Management says yes even though it's outlined in lease that you can't. Others with bikes AND bicycles begin doing the same. And now it's a problem they said yes to one person due to his circumchances. They send out letter explicitly saying 'no one can, it's in the lease - you'll be towed or bicycle tossed'.... without talking to pond guy. Pond guy comes in to office asking WTF - they take the opportunity to reiterate the letter as if they had never said it was ok and tell him to find a place to store it if it can't be in the parking lot. Pond guy gets irate and makes quite a scene - then begins parking his bike in apartment bedroom....
Fast forward two years... management finally finds out and sees damages as result, and Pond guy gets evicted. I get to replace all the flooring from the entry to bedroom and repaint all the walls along the way. Pond guy is charged outrageous fees, that he never pays and goes to collections.
I don't know if there would have been a different outcome had management told him no the first time despite his circumstances, or talked to him before letter went out, or didn't act like they never said it was ok for him - but if you do somehow manage to get your bike inside the apartment - protect the floor and walls from your tires!
- Bboy
tarps work.
Aaron
We got a few inches of snow and ice over the weekend and I chose to leave the bike in it's normal spot, since it wasn't gonna be in a ton of danger. However, there is now 5 inches of snow/ice in the forecast, so I'm gonna be putting the bike on my porch again tonight. I'm planning on doing as Watcher said and putting a note on it stating that I have explicit permission from the property managers. And, since one of the apartments downstairs is vacant at the moment, I won't put it in front of Mr. Grumpy's precious window (that he never, ever opens the blinds for...).
I'll keep you guys posted if he complains anyway.
Too bad you can't put it IN the vacant apartment! That would be awesome :D
So, it snowed much less than forecast so I actually didnt end up putting the bike on the porch. Sorry to disappoint anyone who was hoping for drama lol.
Quote from: qcbaker on February 08, 2018, 09:04:49 AM
Sorry to disappoint anyone who was hoping for drama lol.
:cry: